Further Discussion Regarding Atrocities Committed On Minorities In Various ... on 15 December, 1998

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Lok Sabha Debates

Further Discussion Regarding Atrocities Committed On Minorities In Various ... on 15 December, 1998

> Title:Further discussion regarding atrocities committed on minorities in various parts of the country raised by Shri Arif Mohammed Khan on the 8th December, 1998.

16.41 hrs. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-{ÉÊ¶SÉ¨É): ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ "B]ÅÉäÊºÉ]õÒVÉ +MÉäÆº]õ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ" ºÉ¤ÉVÉèE]õ {É®ú ¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ ¶ÉÖ°ü ½þÖ<Ç ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ ¤Éc÷ä nùÖ¦ÉÉÇMªÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Eòä 50 ´É¹ÉÇ ¤ÉÒiÉ VÉÉxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +ÉVÉ ¦ÉÒ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ B]ÅÉäÊºÉ]õÒVÉ +MÉäÆº]õ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ Eòä >ð{É®ú ½þ¨É SÉSÉÉÇ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* <ºÉ SÉSÉÉÇ Eòä nùÉè®úÉxÉ VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ =`öÉ<Ç MÉªÉÒÆ ´Éä ºÉÖxÉEò®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä +Éè®ú ¦ÉÒ ½þè®úÉxÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +ÉVÉ ªÉ½þ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Eòä 50 ´É¹ÉÇ ¤ÉÒiÉ VÉÉxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¦ÉÒ EªÉÉ ½þ¨É ªÉ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò®úiÉä ®ú½þäÆMÉä? ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ SÉSÉÉÇ Eòä nùÉè®úÉxÉ =`öÉ<Ç MÉªÉÒÆ, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EòÉÆº]õÒ]ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ Eòä |ÉÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤ÉiÉÉ<Ç MÉªÉÒ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä EòÉÆº]õÒ]ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ |ÉÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ºÉ¦ÉÒ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¤É®úÉ¤É®ú EòÉ +ÊvÉEòÉ®ú +Éè®ú +´ÉºÉ®ú ½þè* ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ EòÒ |ÉºiÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÉ ½þÖ+É ½þè* <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ´ÉVÉÚnù ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨É ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÖUô +ÊvÉEòÉ®ú nùäxÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ÊVÉxÉ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä ½þ¨É ¦ÉÚ±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ =x½þÒÆ EòÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ nùÖ¤ÉÉ®úÉ =`öÉªÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷Ò +É{ÉÊiiÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆxÉä =ºÉ ÊnùxÉ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ +ÉÊ®ú¡ò ¨ÉÉä½þ¨¨Énù JÉÉÆ VÉÒ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉÖxÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä +{ÉxÉÒ º{ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ =`öÉ<ÇÆ +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÒ ¨ÉèVÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒ Eò¨ªÉÖÊxÉ]õÒ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ºÉEòÉÇÊº]õEò Ê®ú¨ÉÉEòÇºÉ {ÉÉºÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É EòÒ* VÉ¤É ½þ¨É ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ {É®ú B]ÅÉäÊºÉ]õÒVÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä BEò nùÚºÉ®úä Eòä >ð{É®ú SÉÉVÉÇ ±ÉMÉÉxÉä ºÉä EòÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ SÉ±ÉäMÉÉ* =xÉEòÉä +MÉ®ú EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ÊEòºÉÒ xÉä MÉhÉ{ÉÊiÉ EòÉä nùÚvÉ Ê{É±ÉÉªÉÉ, ªÉ½þ =x½þÉäÆxÉä +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ* BEò vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä >ð{É®ú <ºÉ føÆMÉ ºÉä =x½þÉäÆxÉä ½þ¨É±ÉÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É EòÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù (¨ÉvÉÖ¤ÉxÉÒ) : ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ¶ÉEòÒ±É VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä {É½þSÉÉxÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ* +ÉVÉ nùä¶É EòÒ ½þÉ±ÉiÉ nùäÊJÉªÉä* VÉ¤É ½þVÉ®úiÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É EòÉ BEò ¤ÉÉ±É Eò½þÒÆ MÉÖ¨É ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ iÉÉä {ÉÚ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ½þÆMÉÉ¨ÉÉ ½þÖ+É lÉÉ? uÉ®úÉ VÉÉ®úÒ ¸ÉÒ ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú VÉÉ®úÒ ªÉÊnù EòÉä<Ç Eò½þiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò MÉhÉ{ÉÊiÉ xÉä nùÚvÉ {ÉÒ Ê±ÉªÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä =ºÉºÉä EªÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ ªÉÉ iÉEò±ÉÒ¡ò ½þè? BäºÉÉ Eò½þ Eò®ú ÊEòºÉÒ Eòä vÉ¨ÉÇ EòÒ +É±ÉÉäSÉxÉÉ EòÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè* BäºÉÉ EòÉèxÉ ºÉÉ vÉ¨ÉÇ ½þè VÉÉä ¤±ÉÉ<Æb÷ ¡òälÉ ºÉä +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøiÉÉ ½þè* ªÉÊnù EòÉä<Ç BäºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤ÉiÉÉBMÉÉ iÉÉä +SUôÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. CHAIRMAN : Dr. Shakeel Ahmad, he is not yielding. Please sit down. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +MÉ®ú ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉìÊ®ú]õÒVÉ {É®ú +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ VÉÉiÉÒ iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ* BäºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò®úiÉä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ BEò nùÚºÉ®úä EòÉä ]õÉäEòxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ ½þè VÉÉä ÊEò `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú ¨ÉäÆ EòÉèxÉ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉìÊ®ú]õÒ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè? ´É½þÉÆ {ÉÆÊb÷iÉ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉìÊ®ú]õÒ ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ* 1991 Eòä ¤ÉÉnù Eò®úÒ¤ÉxÉ 4 ±ÉÉJÉ {ÉÆÊb÷iÉ VÉ¨¨ÉÚ +Éè®ú Ênù±±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ®ú½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* =xÉEòä |ÉÊiÉ ÊEòºÉÒ Eòä Ênù±É ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç ºÉn¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ªÉä {ÉÆÊb÷iÉ nùä¶É Eòä ½þ®ú EòÉäxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ´Éä Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ®ú½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉEòiÉä* ªÉ½þ +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú ÊEòºÉ EòÉ®úhÉ ½þÖ+É?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ +½þ¨Énù VÉÒ ºÉä <iÉxÉÉ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ´É½þ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä EòÉä<Ç ]õÉäEòÉ-]õÉEòÒ xÉ½þÒÆ EòÒ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ½þ®úäEò ¤ÉÉiÉ vªÉÉxÉ ºÉä ºÉÖxÉÒ* VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þÒÆ MÉ<ÇÆ, =xÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäxÉä EòÒ +É´É¶ªÉEòiÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®úxÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB JÉc÷É ½þÉäxÉÉ {Éc÷É* xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä Eò½þxÉä EòÒ +É´É¶ªÉEòiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ* ÊVÉºÉ føÆMÉ ºÉä ½þ®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þÉ MÉªÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þÚÆMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä EòÉMÉVÉ ¨ÉÆMÉ´ÉÉB ½þèÆ* ´Éä EòÉMÉVÉ +ÉxÉä {É®ú ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þä¤É +¨¤Éäb÷Eò®ú xÉä VÉÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ {Égø Eò®ú ¤ÉiÉÉ>ðÆMÉÉ* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¶ÉÉÆÊiÉ ºÉä Êb÷ºÉEò¶ÉxÉ SÉ±ÉxÉä nùÒÊVÉB* BEò nùÚºÉ®úä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¶ÉÉÆÊiÉ ºÉä ºÉÖÊxÉB* BäºÉä ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉ=ºÉ `öÒEò ºÉä SÉ±ÉäMÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ¨ÉèÆ ÊEòiÉÉ¤É ±ÉäEò®ú xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉÉäSÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò {É½þ±Éä BºÉ.ºÉÒ. +Éè®ú BºÉ.]õÒ. {É®ú Êb÷ºÉEò¶ÉxÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ {É®ú Êb÷ºÉEò¶ÉxÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* <ºÉ nùÉè®úÉxÉ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉ®úä EòÉMÉVÉ ±Éä +É>ðÆMÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ ±ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉÉªÉÉ* ªÉÊnù ´Éä EòÉMÉVÉ +É VÉÉiÉä iÉÉä I would like to give each and every citation which respected Baba Saheb Ambedkar has given to this country. ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þä¤É +¨¤Éäb÷Eò®ú xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ Ê´É´ÉäEòÉxÉxnù xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ =`öÉ<Ç MÉ<Ç* +ÉÊ®ú¡ò ¨ÉÉä½þ¨¨nù JÉÉÆ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä Ê½þxnùÚ vÉ¨ÉÇ ÊºÉJÉÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É ½þÖ<Ç* ´É½þ ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä =xÉºÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ®úJÉÚÆMÉÉ iÉÉä +É{É ={ÉÊºlÉiÉ ®ú½þxÉÉ* VÉÉä +É{ÉÊiiÉVÉxÉEò ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þxÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉÊ½þBÆ, ´É½þ =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÒÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä VÉÉä EòÖUô Eò½þÉ ½þè, +É{É =ºÉä nùäÊJÉB* `You be a judge'. Had he committed any mistake, he was prepared to ask for pardon. ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¤Éc÷ä +SUôä føÆMÉ ºÉä ½þ®ú SÉÒVÉ EòÉä nùäJÉÉ* ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ {ÉiÉÉ ±ÉMÉÉ* It is a passing reference as to how people fool others. =x½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB MÉhÉ{ÉÊiÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉÖZÉä +É{ÉÊiiÉ ½þè* VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ÊVÉºÉ føÆMÉ ºÉä +ÉMÉä VÉÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB lÉÒÆ, =ºÉ føÆMÉ ºÉä ´Éä xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÒ MÉ<ÇÆ +Éè®ú VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þxÉä EòÒ +É´É¶ªÉEòiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ, =x½þäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ =`öÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ VÉÉä ¤Éc÷Ò +É{ÉÊiiÉVÉxÉEò ½þè* <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ VÉÒ xÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ iÉÉä ´É½þ ={ÉÊºlÉiÉ ®ú½þäÆMÉä* =x½þÉäÆxÉä +É®ú.B¨É.BºÉ. +Éè®ú ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò½þÒ MÉ<ÇÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ ºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò EªÉÉ +É®ú.BºÉ.BºÉ. +Éè®ú ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É xÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò EòÖUô EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ? ´Éä <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä ¤ÉSÉÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ* We are proud of them. Whatever services they are rendering in this country are in the interests of this country and not against the interests of this country. (Interruptions) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ (|ÉÉä.®úÒiÉÉ ´É¨ÉÉÇ): +É{ÉEòä xÉäiÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, +É{É =x½þäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä nùÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI PRAKASH VISHWANATH PARANJPE (THANE): Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said: `The RSS is the second military which is controlling this country.' ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù Eòä føÉÆSÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ =`öÒ lÉÒ* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ b÷É. ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÉºÉÉ½þä¤É +¨¤Éäb÷Eò®ú xÉä VÉÉä Ê±ÉJÉÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ´É½þÒ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù EòÉä ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉä føÉÆSÉÉ Eò½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ =x½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ -

"Some other Muslim leaders advance other arguments. They say, `Today, the Hindus ask for three sites; tomorrow they will ask for three thousand sites.' It has been made clear to them that the VHP is a great representative and responsible organisation of the Hindus and it has asked for only three sites and that they do not have to take note of all individuals making extravagant demands but there seems to be no will to settle the dispute." (Interruptions) ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ =`öÒ lÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚ®úä ºÉnùxÉ EòÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ EòÉèxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉÉ lÉÉ* EªÉÉ b÷É. +¤ÉÖ±É Eò±ÉÉ¨É +ÉVÉÉnù ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉä lÉä? ¨Éä®úÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ½þÒ®úÉ ±ÉÉ±É ®úÉªÉ (Uô{É®úÉ): ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Ê½þÆnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÉ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ ºÉäEªÉÖ±É®ú {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ ½þè* ªÉ½þ VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ´É½þ nùä¶É EòÒ Êº{ÉÊ®ú]õ +Éè®ú {ÉÖ®úÉxÉÒ ]Åèb÷Ò¶ÉÆºÉ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ½þè* MR. CHAIRMAN: He is not yielding. Please sit down.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Rai, please do not disturb others. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ VÉÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ ´É½þ VÉÉä SÉSÉÉÇ ªÉ½þÉÆ ½þÖ<Ç ½þèÆ, =ºÉEòä ¨ÉqäxÉVÉ®ú ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòä +±ÉÉ´ÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, ¨ÉèÆ +Éè®ú EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ =`öÉ>ðÆMÉÉ* ½þ®ú º{ÉÒEò®ú xÉä VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ =`öÉ<Ç lÉÒÆ, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòä ®úä¡ò®úäxºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É Êb÷º]õ¤ÉÇ ¨ÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉB, VÉ¤É +É{ÉEòÉ ]õxÉÇ +ÉªÉäMÉÉ, iÉ¤É ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉäMÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : VÉ¤É ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É +ÉiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ b÷É. +¤ÉÖ±É Eò±ÉÉ¨É +ÉVÉÉnù, b÷É. ®ú¡òÒ +½þ¨Énù ÊEònù´É<Ç +Éè®ú +xªÉ ºÉ¦ÉÒ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ EòÉ xÉÉ®úÉ nùäEò®ú ½þÒ nùä¶É EòÉä +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Ênù±ÉÉ<Ç +Éè®ú +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ SÉSÉÉÇ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè ÊEò ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ Eò½þxÉÉ `öÒEò ½þè ªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨Éä®úÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò ªÉ½þ +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB ªÉ½þ BEò ¨ÉÆjÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¦ÉÒ <ºÉä BEò ¨ÉÆjÉ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¤ÉèÊ`öªÉä, +É{ÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÒ +xÉÖ¨ÉÊiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùÒ MÉ<Ç ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ xÉÉMÉÊ®úEò EòÉä ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ÊEò ´É½þ ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þäÆMÉä* ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É nùÉäºiÉÉäÆ ºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þÉÆ =ºÉ ÊnùxÉ ºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ JÉÉxÉ Ê¡ò±¨É BE]õ®ú Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ ÊxÉEò±ÉÒ lÉÒ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä EòÖUô ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ ¨ÉèÆ =x½þäÆ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉÉäÆ Eòä Ê±ÉB ªÉ½þ +É{ÉÊiiÉ EªÉÉäÆ ½þèÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ÊnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò®úÒ¤ÉxÉ 15 ¤ÉÉ®ú ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉ¨ÉÉVÉ {ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ, VÉ¤É xÉ¨ÉÉVÉ {ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä =xÉEòÉ ÊºÉ®ú Ê¨É^Ò EòÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè, VÉ¤É Ê¨É^Ò ¨ÉäÆ ÊºÉ®ú ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ Eò½þxÉä ¨ÉäÆ EòèºÉÒ +É{ÉÊiiÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ ¨Éä®úÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè, <x½þäÆ =ºÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä ¦ÉÒ vÉ®úiÉÒ ªÉÉ ¦ÉÚÊ¨É Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä ZÉÖEòxÉä ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI RAJESH PILOT (DAUSA): Do not allow such things to happen in this country. It is not correct. You should not force it. There is no question of aapatthi in this secular India. You cannot force it. (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : I am giving this just as a suggestion. (Interruptions)

SHRI PRAKASH VISHWANATH PARANJPE (THANE): What is wrong in it? (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJESH PILOT :The way you are saying it is a provocation. It is wrong. (Interruptions) Do not raise that question here. (Interruptions) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú VÉÒ, +É{É +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÊ½þªÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : =x½þÉäÆxÉä =ºÉ ÊnùxÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ¨ÉÉÆ Eòä {Éè®úÉäÆ {É®ú EòÉä<Ç ÊºÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ®úJÉiÉÉ ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÉÆ Eòä {Éè®úÉäÆ Eòä xÉÒSÉä VÉxxÉiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, BäºÉÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÚªÉÇEòÉÆiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒ±É : +ÉVÉÉnùÒ EòÒ ±Éc÷É<Ç ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉxÉä ´ÉÆnùä¨ÉÉiÉ®ú¨ EªÉÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, iÉ¤É iÉÉä +É{É +ÆOÉäVÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ lÉä* +¦ÉÒ +É{É EªÉÉäÆ føÉäÆMÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þÉä?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-{ÉÊ¶SÉ¨É): ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¦ÉÒ +ÉVÉÉnùÒ EòÒ ±Éc÷É<Ç ±Éc÷Ò ½þè* ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ Ê¤É±EòÖ±É MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þè ÊEò ÊºÉ¡òÇ +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +ÉVÉÉnùÒ EòÒ ±Éc÷É<Ç ±Éc÷Ò ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ +ÉVÉÉnùÒ EòÒ ±Éc÷É<Ç ±Éc÷ SÉÖEòÉ ½þÚÆ* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉÉ, ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É +¨¤Éäb÷Eò®ú xÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ (|ÉÉä.®úÒiÉÉ ´É¨ÉÉÇ): ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú VÉÒ, +É{É VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä, =ºÉÒ {É®ú +É<ÇB* +É{É +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ (´Éè¶ÉÉ±ÉÒ): ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉÉ, ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè, EªÉÉ ªÉ½þ +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ Eòä >ð{É®ú +iªÉÉSÉÉ®úÉäÆ Eòä Ê´É¹ÉªÉ {É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè? ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè? ¨É½þÉänùªÉÉ, ªÉ½þ iÉÉä ÊxÉªÉ¨É ¨ÉäÆ ½þè ÊEò ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú BäºÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ, +É{É ¤ÉèÊ`öB* ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè ÊEò VÉ¤É iÉEò ¨ÉèÆ JÉc÷Ò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, iÉ¤É iÉEò +É{É ¤Éè`öiÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, BäºÉÉ EªÉÉäÆ?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : EªÉÉ +É{É SÉÖ{É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäÆMÉä* +É{É SÉÖ{É ¤ÉèÊ`öB* VÉ¤É +É{ÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉ®úÒ +ÉB, iÉ¤É +É{É VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùÒÊVÉB* +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ ¶ÉÉÊxiÉ ºÉä ºÉÖÊxÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : Eò´ÉÉc÷ä VÉÒ, +É{É ¤ÉèÊ`öB* Eò´ÉÉc÷ä VÉÒ, VÉ¤É ¨ÉèÆ JÉc÷Ò ½þÚÆ, iÉÉä +É{ÉEòÉä ¤Éè`öxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* Eò´ÉÉc÷ä VÉÒ EªÉÉ +É{É +ÉºÉxÉ EòÒ ¦ÉÒ +ÉYÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉxÉäÆMÉä?

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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<ªÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ºÉ®úEòÉÊ®úªÉÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè* =ºÉä +É{É xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É, +É{É xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ* Ê¤É½þÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É, ¨ÉèÆ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* VÉÉä VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úxÉÉ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* If they come across such atrocities, they should straightaway walk to the Home Minister and tell him that such and such atrocity has happened and that he must take care of it. That should be the approach. Instead of doing that, we are making allegations and counter allegations and for 50 years, we have been again and again discussing the same subject of minorities, majorities and others. We being the natives of this great country must behave like great country men. Let us work together for the prosperity, progress and in the larger interest of this country.

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (PONNANI): Sir, I am on a point of order under Rule 376.

MR. CHAIRMAN : What is your point of order?

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : Sir, a Member from Shiv Sena has spoken now. So, it for the Member of the Muslim League to speak now. Please call me to speak.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order.

SHRI T.R. BAALU (SOUTH MADRAS): Mr. Chairman, I would like to record my views on behalf of the DMK on the subject matter of atrocities on minorities brought before the House by hon. Arif Mohammad Khan. It is not only that this House and our great nation but the whole world had observed the Human Rights Day on the 10th December and we are proud that we are one among the signatories of the universal declaration of human rights. But Sir, are we strictly adopting the declaration in letter and spirit? If we really practice it, then what is the necessity to discuss atrocities on minorities? Yes, we preach and proclaim but we do not adopt and practice it. Sir, are we able to maintain peace and tranquility which was in vogue about one or two decades ago? It is diminishing day by day. The confidence reposed by the minorities on the Government is diminishing. Why is it diminishing day by day? We have to find out an answer to this question.

We know that Dr. Ambedkar, Father of the Constitution, was a born Hindu. What made him to adopt Buddhism at the fag end of his life? Raja Ram Mohan Roy was a born Hindu. What made him to establish and profess Brahma Samaj? Lord Buddha was a born Hindu. What was the necessity for him to adopt Buddhism during his life? Guru Nanak, Father of Sikhism, was a born Hindu. What made him to switch over to Sikhism? Saint Mahavir was a born Hindu. What made him to switch over to Jainism? Ramalinga Adigalar, a Tamil saint, was a born Hindu. What made him to adopt Samarasa Sutha Sanmarka Sangam, that is, secular society? It was because the so-called upper caste people who professed vedic religion divided and sub-divided and established discrimination, disparity, untouchability and even unseeability. The upper class people spread all over what is called Varnashramam Maya Srishtam, that is, casteism was created by God.

Sir, I belong to Self Respect Movement.

I belong to the rationalistic movement which is now actively led by Dr. Kalaignar Karunanidhi. At the same time, Dr. Kalaignar Karunanidhi himself adopts and he preaches and practises this.

We were to elect five Members of Parliament to Rajya Sabha. Out of the five, he has elected Shri M.A. Khader as one of the Rajya Sabha Members. Shri Khader is a Muslim. Shri Rahman Khan is one of the Cabinet Ministers in the Tamil Nadu Government. Shri S.A.M. Hussain is the Joint Secretary of the Propaganda Wing of the DMK Party. Shri Abdul Kareem holds the position of the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Agriculture, Coimbatore. Shri Salihue is the Vice-Chancellor of the Madurai-Kamaraj University. In the districts of Salem, Theni and Tuticorin, Shri Nizamuddin, Shri Basheer Ahmed and Shri Allik Ferozkhan are holding the posts of the Collectors respectively. At the same time, I am very proud to record that the DMK Government has extended the backward class status not only to the Tamil-speaking Muslim community but also to the Urdu-speaking Muslim community and has rendered social justice to them.

Now, I come to the statement of the Chairman of the minority panel. The Chairman of the National Commission for Minorities Dr. Tahir Mahmood has said:

"It was a matter of grave concern that the basic spirit of the Constitution was being undermined by certain groups and individuals."

This is a statement made by no less a person than Dr. Tahir Mahmood, the Chairman of the National Commission for Minorities.

Again, I would like to quote the Hindustan Times dated the 26th November, 1998 which said:

"Criticising the style of functioning of the BJP and its associate organisations without naming them, he said that "personal beliefs and group ideologies are now being allowed more freely than before to eclipse the equality and justice provision of the Constitution to the detriment of the minorities.""

This is the statement made by Dr. Tahir Mahmood, Chairman of the National Commission for Minorities.

What is the reaction of Shri Tohra, the President of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee? I quote the Indian Express dated the 27th November, 1998 which said:

"Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee President Gurcharan Singh Tohra today said that minorities in the country have been feeling unsafe since Independence.

In an obvious reference to the attacks on Christian missionaries by Hindu fundamentalists, he said at a press conference here this morning that minorities' shrines across the country were unsafe."

This goes to show that an ally of the ruling party, the Government, is himself not safe.

In the wake of the implementation of the Kalpa Yojana in Uttar Pradesh, making it compulsory to sing the Vande Mataram and the Sarawathi Vandana, the Islamic Board Chairman Mr. Abdul Hassan Nadvi issued a statement as to withdrawal of their wards belonging to the Muslim community from the educational institutions in Uttar Pradesh. By the by, his house had been raided the next day. Why was it raided?

The Muslim community and the Christian community are vulnerable to be attacked. The human rights wing of the Christian community has stated that 84 incidents against them took place during 1998 in the BJP Rule and the incidents took place in eight months! But at the same time, from 1964 to 1996, in a period of 32 years, 33 incidents only took place.

Is this the way of conducting the Government? The Government is helpless. More than two and a half crore Christians are spearheading the revolt. They are fighting for their rights. All along they were silent without having any agitation, now they came to the streets holding agitation. They want protection to their lives and properties. The minority community which is not capable of defending itself, their lives and property, subjected to frequent attacks; now has come out in the open fight for their rights. The frequency of attacks on minority communities, especially of Christian minorities, are increasing day by day. The rate of attacks and the rate of vandalism is increasing day by day.

Sir, in Delhi, as you all know, serving of wine was banned in churches. As per Christian religion, on certain occassions they serve wine in the churches. But the then BJP Government wanted to ban this under the guise that it is against the ethics of Hinduism. Was it fair on their part to ban? In Rajkot, Sangh Parivar activists burnt copies of Bible after raiding the girls' hostel. In Bihar, Father Chrisnadas was assaulted and paraded nakedly on the road. In Hazaribagh, Father Thomas was murdered by some activists. In Maharashtra, Father Antony was assaulted with iron bars, allegedly by some activists. In Ludhiana, prayer meeting of Christians was disrupted. In Gujarat, armed men vandalised tribal Christian-households at Ojada. In Maharashtra once again, some activists attacked the Catholic Hospital Association of India at Latur, where the medical aid was extended to the earthquake victims by Christians. In Haryana, 200-year old cemetery, the Tomb of Col. James Skinner, was damaged at Hansi. In Kurnool, Andhra Pradesh, Gipsons' Central Baptist Church was threatened with demolition by some activists. In Kerala, Little Flower Church was vandalised and the crucifix desecrated. What happened in Jhabua? On 23nd September, 1998 a shameful incident took place. Four Christian nuns were raped in the early morning. ... (Interruptions) It is a gruesome gang rape and a heinous crime against four nuns at an obscure hamlet of Jhabua which had not only sent shock waves to the rest of India but every Indian have to hang his head in shame... (Interruptions)

In the aftermath of dismantling Babri Masjid, there was unabated arson and looting in Mumbai and the tyranny unleased against the Muslim minority, the Government has constituted Sri Krishna Inquiry Commission. It has submitted a Report wherein it has stated that the people who were in power and police officials were the cause of action. What action they have taken? Nothing.

What happened in Meerut in Uttar Pradesh? Muslims were attacked and an Inquiry Commission was instituted and the Report was submitted. But the Report was not yet published. Why is it so?

You know pretty well what Article 25 states. It is regarding the freedom of conscience and the right to freely profess, practice and propagation of religion. Article 14 is regarding equality before law. Article 15 states that the State shall not discriminate against any citizen of India by caste, creed, religion, place or birth, and so on. Are we maintaining any equality before law? Are we not responsible for that? We have to maintain equality before law. Some born Hindus have converted themselves to other religions. What was the necessity for that? It was because they could not bear the brunt of the atrocities of their Vedic religious people. After such incidents, let us see what was the reaction of the head of the Bajrang Dal. Shri Surendra Kumar Jain, National Convener of the Bajrang Dal says:

"We have declared to launch the second `Quit India Movement' against the Christian Missions in India."

This was the statement made by no less a person than by Shri Surendra Kumar Jain, National Convener of the Bajrang Dal. Then, Shri B.L. Sharma made a statement which says:

"The spurt in violence is the expression of anger of patriotic Hindu youth against the anti-national force. The Missionaries should pack up and leave India; the VHP will not shut its eyes to the activities of these traitors."

This was the statement made by Shri B.L. Sharma.

MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI KHAGAPATI PRADHANI): Shri Baalu, please try to conclude.

Sir, it is high time to rise above party politics, religion, caste, creed etc. We have to create confidence among the minorities and we have to see that they are very well supported, their interests are safeguarded well and their life and property are protected. Past is past. Let us forget what had happened until now. Let us forget the enmities between one religion and the other and one caste and the other.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Shri Baalu, please conclude.

Before I conclude, I would like to quote Saint Thiruvalluvar in Tamil. This is the kural which my leader Dr. Kalaignar Karunanidhi quotes very often in the midst of public. It says:

"Pirappokkum ella oyirkum sirappovva sei thozhil vetrumaiyaan."

It means that all human beings are alike at birth; their acts bring about variations in their worthiness.

Then, I would like to quote Kanian Poongunranar. He says:

"Yaadhum oore yavarum kelir."

It means that every place is our place; everybody is our kith and kin.

With these words, I would like to draw the attention of my friends on the other side to see that the interests of the minorities are protected as per Articles 25 and 28 of the Constitution.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): Mr. Chairman, Sir, the 10th of this month was the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of the adoption of the UN Charter on Human Rights. The rights of the minorities have a special place in the Bills of Human Rights.

17.39 hrs (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Sir, I would have expected this Government to take an initiative either to pass a unanimous resolution on that day to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of the adoption of the UN Charter on Human Rights or at least during today's debate, as has been contemplated earlier. I would still urge the Government to find out some ways and means to see whether we can celebrate the Golden Jubilee of the adoption of the UN Charter on Human Rights. It can still be debated in Parliament.

As far as the atrocities on minorities are concerned, I would not like to go through the incidents or the specific incidents which have already been mentioned by many hon. Members who participated in this debate. I would only like to point out one fact, that is, ever since this Government came to power, there has been an increase in atrocities on the minorities.

Secondly, what I am more worried about is the response of the Central Government. ... (Interruptions) I am not going to attack anybody. In response to the question of Prof. P.J. Kurien, hon. Minister of Home Affairs dismissed it as a State subject and that it is a law and order problem.

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Which subject?

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : This is about the atrocities. Of course, that was a Starred Question. What I want to say is that these are not mere incidents that are taking place and that they can dismiss it as a law and order situation. It has something to do with their ideology. It has something to do with the ideology of Sangh Parivar.

Since there is no time, I want to come to that aspect straightaway. I want to deal with the situation from two aspects of ideological framework of the BJP and the Sangh Parivar and the theoretical framework of the BJP and the Sangh Parivar. What is the ideological aspect of this? The BJP manifesto is very very clear. What does the BJP manifesto say? You talk about cultural nationalism. What is cultural nationalism? The cultural nationalism is that you are committed to the concept of one nation, one people and one culture. It is very much there in their manifesto of 1998. I quote the manifesto:

"The BJP is committed to the concept of one nation, one people and one culture. Our nationalist vision is not merely bound by the geographical or political identity of Bharat but is referred by our timeless and cultural heritage. The cultural heritage, which is central to all regions, religions and languages, is a civilisational identity and constitutes a cultural nationalism in India which is the core of `Hindutava'. That is the ideology of one nation, one people and one culture.

Another example that I would like to give is an attempt to saffronise our education system. I have a great respect for the Minister of Human Resource Development, Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi. But the way the agenda of the Government was sought to be pushed through in the recently convened Conference of the Education Ministers is something which I personally could not believe that a respected person like Dr. Joshi could do this. We are aware how an RSS activist, Shri P.D. Chitingviana - I do not know how to pronounce it - was asked to preserve the theory of this saffronisation of education.

We are all aware of the attempt that was made to introduce Saraswati Vandana and Vande Mataram; the attempt to introduce Sanskrit as a compulsory subject. We are all aware of that. Now the question is this. Has it come just like that? Is it a new idea? No, it is not. It is very much in the ideological framework of the BJP and is being carried out by its constituents, the RSS, VHP and Bajrang Dal. That is the danger. The RSS and Bajrang Dal were very old organisations but they have not been that active in the past. Why have they suddenly become so active? Why have they suddenly become so much anti-Christians, anti-Muslims and anti-minorities? It is because they know that they have the backing of the Government of the day. They know that it is very much in tune with the ideological framework of one nation, one culture, one people, Hindutva.

I was surprised to read a report on the idea of the hon. Home Minister, Shri Advani on Buddhism. On the 6th of November, 1998 when the hon. Home Minister was inaugurating the World Unity in Buddha's Trinity at Saranath, he Hindunised and Aryanised Buddhism. What did you say? Sir, he said, I quote:

"Buddha only reinstated the ancient ideals of the Hindu Aryan civilisation."

The Home Minister went on to say:

"Gautama Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu and his philosophy flowed from Bhagawad Gita."

We all know what was the reaction of the Buddhist scholars on this reported interpretation of the hon. Home Minister about Buddhism. What is happening today? It is because of the patronage in thinking, in philosophy and in ideology which are emanating from the leaders of the Government of the day.

The second aspect is the theoretical framework. What is the theoretical framework of the ruling party? We know about several statements made by the leaders of the VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal. I do not like to name them because somebody will object that; I cannot take their names because they will not be able to defend themselves. But everyone of us know that the most prominent leaders of those organisations are seeing that Christians are anti-national. There should be second Quit India Movement. The Churches should be closed because they serve liquor in the Church. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI UTTAMSINGH PAWAR (JALNA): Nobody has said like that. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI HARIN PATHAK (AHMEDABAD): The remark was against some of the missionaries and not on the Christian community. ... (Interruptions)

... (Interruptions)

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN : Please do not make the official statement here. (Interruptions). We are also from the RSS. (Interruptions).

SHRI HARIN PATHAK (AHMEDABAD): Nobody has said. (Interruptions). ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä (ºÉÖ®úäxpùxÉMÉ®ú): ½þ¨É +É{ÉEòä ¤ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ +SUôÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉMÉiÉÉ* +É{ÉºÉä ½þ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÒ =¨¨ÉÒnù xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ ÊEò +É{É ¦ÉÒ BäºÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖnùªÉÉ±É Eò`öäÊ®úªÉÉ (Ê¡ò®úÉäVÉÉ¤ÉÉnù) : ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ, +É{ÉºÉä ½þ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÒ =¨¨ÉÒnù xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ (´Éè¶ÉÉ±ÉÒ): EªÉÉ +É{É Ê´ÉuÉxÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ={Énùä¶É nùÒÊVÉBMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) =x½þäÆ ºÉÒJÉÉ<ªÉäMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI TAPAN SIKDAR (DUMDUM): Please do not quote these types of concocted stories. (Interruptions).

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN : You are a part of Great India. (Interruptions). I treat you as one of the great Indian.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): The statement of the VHP leaders have come in the Press. They have not denied. (Interruptions).

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : All right, I will modify my statement. It is reported. (Interruptions). It could be wrong. I will be happy if it is wrong. But it is reported that the former Minister of Delhi, Shri Rajindra Gupta has made this statement. I think, it is because of the ignorance of Christian religion. I do not blame him. He alleged that the liquors are being served in the Church. Therefore, under the Excise Rules, it should not be allowed and it should be closed. I have read it. I do not know how you did not read it. (Interruptions). No, because you are challenging my statement, I am just saying it. (Interruptions).

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): If it had been someone else who was speaking, I would not have interrupted him. I would have waited till the end. But it is Shri Sangma, the respected former Speaker of this House and whom I have held in high esteem and great respect, I wish he had not merely read one report from somewhere, and as far as I recall, even that report did not say what he says now. But immediately on the day this was mentioned in the House, the hon. Prime Minister stood up to say that so far as this Government is concerned, my Party is concerned, we cannot reconcile with any such proposal. So, if there is any such proposal, the Delhi Government would be directed to immediately end it because they do not understand. Instead of citing that, when a former Speaker and the leading Member of the Congress Party repeats that kind of a thing, the damage is done not merely to the BJP, the damage is not done merely to this Government, the damage is done to the whole country. This is what I would like to repeat again and again. (Interruptions). Therefore, I would plead with you that if you are to quote someone, let us know where you are quoting from. Then, in this particular case, the whole House had heard the official view of the Government and the Prime Minister. There was no point in quoting it again. (Interruptions).

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : Maybe I used the word `closed' and Shri Rajindra Gupta did not use the word `closed'. Unfortunately, I do not have that paper with me, but I have my notes. The language he used is: `Churches...(Interruptions).

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: The hon. Prime Minister has given the official view of the Government and not the Party. (Interruptions).

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA :I know it. Shri Advani, that was later on.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Shri Sangma, the day this news item appeared in the morning newspapers, the matter was raised in the House and immediately the hon. Prime Minister, without even caring to go and enquire from the Delhi Government, said what is the Government's view and what is the Party's view. Everyone thought that the whole matter was closed. After three months, a leader of the party is talking about the atrocity on minorities and raises this issue which was closed by the whole House.

Is it not something that is going to damage the whole country?

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : Mr. Home Minister, I started my speech by saying that I was not going into the incidents and the specific incident that had taken place. I am going through the ideological and theoretical framework of the BJP and the Sangh Pariwar. That is the statement I made. Having made that statement, I a trying to prove the theoretical framework of the people. I am not going into the incident.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Shri Sangma, if I would have to reply to whatever you have said, I would have done quoting my manifesto as being the ideology of BJP. But you are referring to the incident relating to the Delhi Government, relating to the church and in that context, knowing fullwell that the matter was satisfactorily replied to and the Government immediately told that it was not to be done, the matter ended. Do you want to repeat it? Is it fair? Please go ahead, because this is all that you have in so far as atrocities on minorities are concerned.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : It is not all that I have. I have so many things to say. I think because of the constraint of time I cannot mention them. I was trying to explain the theoretical framework. Why do people in the BJP and in the Sangh Pariwar should have the notion, that wrong thinking, that Christians are anti-national? (Interruptions)

SHRI HARIN PATHAK (AHMEDABAD): No; you are wrong.

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN (BALASORE): I am happy that it is true.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : But it has been said. It has been said repeatedly.

SHRI HARIN PATHAK : It is not a fact. It is not correct.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Because somebody once said it, will you accuse the others?

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Khanduri, please do not disturb him.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : I am very happy. Your response today clearly shows that you are beginning to understand. (Interruptions)

SHRI FRANCISCO SARDINHA (MARMAGOA): You are wasting the time of the House.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: No one is wasting the time of the House. Because observations are being made of a nature which I believe are hurting the country.

Let me strike a personal note, Shri Sangma, the hon. former Speaker has paid me a compliment that I am starting to understand today.

Let me mention that so far as the Christian community is concerned, right from my childhood my education has been in a Catholic School, in a Missionary School. There is no question of regarding Christians as anti-national or anything of the type. In fact, the only occasion was when I had an occasion to visit my birthplace Karachi only few days ago in the last l5 years. The High Commissioner of Pakistan came and asked me, "Are you particular in visiting any particular place in Karachi?". I said that if I would like to go to any place, it would be my school, St. Patricks High School and that is my choice." I did go there. I am only emphasising that so far as this Government and this party are concerned, about whom I am proud, this Government or party, about whose ideology I am proud, to draw this conclusion that its ideology regards Christians as anti-national, it is an irony.

SHRI HARIN PATHAK : Take note of this also. He is one of the famous ideologists.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : That is precisely I want to know, Mr. Home Minister.

18.00 hrs. I knew that the hon. Home Minister was the product of St. Patricks School, Karachi. I know that. Many people who matter in this country whether they are politicians or bureaucrats, whether they are diplomats or media journalists, whether they are industrialists, many of them have been educated in Christian institutions; and we are proud of that because that is our contribution to this country. If you accept that, why is it that thousands of Bibles are being burnt today? Why? Why are churches being attacked today? This is my question. Why are dead bodies being exhumed from the graveyards? This is the question that I want to ask. ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ (Ê¨ÉVÉÉÇ{ÉÖ®ú): +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉÖZÉä PÉÉä®ú +É{ÉÊiiÉ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ ½þè ÊEò ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò Eòä´É±É <ÇºÉÉ<Ç Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÒ +SUôä ½þèÆ* MR. SPEAKER: He is not yielding. Shri Virendra Kumar, he is not yielding. Please take your seat. ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ : ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉä MÉÉÆ´É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ, xÉMÉ®ú{ÉÉÊ±ÉEòÉ Eòä Ê´ÉtÉ±ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ, ÊVÉ±ÉÉ {ÉÊ®ú¹Énù Eòä Ê´ÉtÉ±ÉªÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷ä ¨É½þÉxÉ {ÉÖ¯û¹É ½þÖB ½þèÆ* +É{É ªÉ½þ §É¨É ¨ÉiÉ ®úÊJÉªÉä ÊEò JÉÉ±ÉÒ <ÇºÉÉ<Ç Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÒ +SUôä ½þÉäiÉä ½þèÆ* +É{É EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ?

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : I think it is becoming very uncomfortable for the Ruling Party. I do not want to proceed further. Let me caution. Shri Ram Vilas Paswan made a very significant statement on this debate. Look at our borders. It is the minorities who are defending our borders. I want to go one step further that if India is projected in the whole world being a country which is anti-Muslims, anti-Christians, we have to remember that we will get further isolated. We are already isolated because of many things that had happened in our country. You talk of Babri Masjid. You talk of nuclear tests. We already stand isolated. If we continue like that, I do not think it will be good for our country. After all, basically the world is divided into two blocs. Let me be very frank and blunt about it. India, in this process of globalisation, cannot afford to be isolated by the world. Please remember that. I am happy that the Home Minister today is very assertive. I am very happy that of late the Prime Minister has also started saying that he is very assertive because he has got three of his most trusted people in the Ministry. But the only comment that I would like to make Mr. Home Minister is that your assertiveness or the Prime Minister's assertiveness is, perhaps, belated. It is already late. I am told and I know that every morning the Hindus do a Pooja called Surya Namaskar. That is to prevent blindness. I read it somewhere that it is to prevent blindness. But unfortunately, Shri Advani and also the Prime Minister are doing Surya Namaskar after they have become blind. But I can tell you that the people of India and the country are not blind. That has been proved in the recent elections of Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ¨ÉÉxÉ´É ºÉÆºÉÉvÉxÉ Ê´ÉEòÉºÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ ®úÉVªÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ =¨ÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒ): +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉÖZÉä +É{ÉxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ +´ÉºÉ®ú ÊnùªÉÉ, <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù nùäiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB ÊEò ¨ÉÖZÉä ÊEòiÉxÉÒ nùä®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ ½þè? +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : {ÉÉÆSÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ =¨ÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒ : EÞò{ÉªÉÉ nùºÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ nùÒÊVÉB* +¦ÉÒ ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É xÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* VÉ¤É ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É º{ÉÒEò®ú lÉä, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ +Énù®ú Eò®úiÉÒ lÉÒ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þÉÆ, Eò®úiÉÒ lÉÒ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò +ÉVÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä º{ÉÒSÉ nùÒ ½þè, ¨ÉÖZÉä ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É ºÉä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ Eòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ EòÒ +É¶ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ* SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): That is precisely I wanted to know, Mr. Home Minister. I knew that the hon. Home Minister was the product of St. Patricks School, Karachi. I know that. Many people who matter in this country whether they are politicians or bureaucrats, whether they are diplomats or media journalists, whether they are industrialists, many of them have been educated in Christian institutions; and we are proud of that because that is our contribution to this country. If you accept that, why is it that thousands of Bibles are being burnt today? Why? Why are churches being attacked today? This is my question. Why are dead bodies being exhumed from the graveyards? This is the question that I want to ask. ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ (Ê¨ÉVÉÉÇ{ÉÖ®ú): +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉÖZÉä PÉÉä®ú +É{ÉÊiiÉ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ ½þè ÊEò ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò Eòä´É±É <ÇºÉÉ<Ç Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÒ +SUôä ½þèÆ* MR. SPEAKER: He is not yielding. Shri Virendra Kumar, he is not yielding. Please take your seat. ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ (Ê¨ÉVÉÉÇ{ÉÖ®ú): ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉä MÉÉÆ´É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ, xÉMÉ®ú{ÉÉÊ±ÉEòÉ Eòä Ê´ÉtÉ±ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ, ÊVÉ±ÉÉ {ÉÊ®ú¹Énù Eòä Ê´ÉtÉ±ÉªÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷ä ¨É½þÉxÉ {ÉÖ¯û¹É ½þÖB ½þèÆ* +É{É ªÉ½þ §É¨É ¨ÉiÉ ®úÊJÉªÉä ÊEò JÉÉ±ÉÒ <ÇºÉÉ<Ç Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÒ +SUôä ½þÉäiÉä ½þèÆ* +É{É EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ?

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I think it is becoming very uncomfortable for the Ruling Party. I do not want to proceed further. Let me caution. Shri Ram Vilas Paswan made a very significant statement on this debate. Look at our borders. It is the minorities who are defending our borders. I want to go one step further that if India is projected in the whole world being a country which is anti-Muslims, anti-Christians, we have to remember that we will get further isolated. We are already isolated because of many things that had happened in our country. You talk of Babri Masjid. You talk of nuclear tests. We already stand isolated. If we continue like that, I do not think it will be good for our country. After all, basically the world is divided into two blocs. Let me be very frank and blunt about it. India, in this process of globalisation, cannot afford to be isolated by the world. Please remember that. I am happy that the Home Minister today is very assertive. I am very happy that of late the Prime Minister has also started saying that he is very assertive because he has got three of his most trusted people in the Ministry. But the only comment that I would like to make Mr. Home Minister is that your assertiveness or the Prime Minister's assertiveness is, perhaps, belated. It is already late. I am told and I know that every morning the Hindus do a Pooja called Surya Namaskar. That is to prevent blindness. I read it somewhere that it is to prevent blindness. But unfortunately, Shri Advani and also the Prime Minister are doing Surya Namaskar after they have become blind. But I can tell you that the people of India and the country are not blind. That has been proved in the recent elections of Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

(ends) 1804 ¤ÉVÉä ¨ÉÉxÉ´É ºÉÆºÉÉvÉxÉ Ê´ÉEòÉºÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ ®úÉVªÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ =¨ÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒ): +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉÖZÉä +É{ÉxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ +´ÉºÉ®ú ÊnùªÉÉ, <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù nùäiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB ÊEò ¨ÉÖZÉä ÊEòiÉxÉÒ nùä®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ ½þè? +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : {ÉÉÆSÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ =¨ÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒ (JÉVÉÖ®úÉ½þÉä): EÞò{ÉªÉÉ nùºÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ nùÒÊVÉB* +¦ÉÒ ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É xÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* VÉ¤É ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É º{ÉÒEò®ú lÉä, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ +Énù®ú Eò®úiÉÒ lÉÒ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þÉÆ, Eò®úiÉÒ lÉÒ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò +ÉVÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä º{ÉÒSÉ nùÒ ½þè, ¨ÉÖZÉä ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É ºÉä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ Eòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ EòÒ +É¶ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ* +É{ÉxÉä +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ {É®ú BEò Eò¨ÉäÆ]õ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè ` Now you are beginning to understand.' ¨ÉèÆ +É{É {É®ú ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þ Eò¨ÉäÆ]õ Eò°üÆMÉÒ ` Now you are beginning to lose your understanding.' +É{ÉxÉä ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä EòÉä]õä¶ÉÆºÉ EòÉä]õ ÊEòB ½þèÆ, ½þ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉºÉä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÒ +{ÉäIÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ* ½þ¨É +É{ÉEòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ +Énù®ú Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ¨Éä®úÉ +É{ÉºÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ ½þè ÊEò +É{É ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +ÉMÉä ºÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆ iÉÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ vªÉÉxÉ ®úJÉäÆ ÊEò +É{ÉEòä |ÉÊiÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä +Énù®ú ½þè, ´É½þ ¤ÉxÉÉ ®ú½þä* MR. SPEAKER: Madam, just one minute.

Hon. Members, we had allotted two hours for the discussion of this subject. Already it has taken more than nine hours. Twenty-three Members have already spoken on this. I seek the sense of the House for extending the time of the House by one hour to complete this subject today. There are also five to six more Members to speak on this subject. So, should we extend the time by one hour?

... (Interruptions)

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Not today, tomorrow...(Interruptions) ºÉÆºÉnùÒªÉ EòÉªÉÇ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ iÉlÉÉ {ÉªÉÇ]õxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ): +É{ÉxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò {ÉÚ®úÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè, +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäÆMÉä* MR. SPEAKER: No, tomorrow we have a very hectic business.

AN HON. MEMBER: This is a very important subject, Sir...(Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER: That is why we have taken nine hours instead of two hours.

So, the time of the House is extended by one hour. Now you can continue, Madam. EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ =¨ÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒ: +¦ÉÒ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ =iiÉ®ú nùäiÉä ½þÖB Eò½þÉ ÊEò ´Éä º´ÉªÉÆ <ÇºÉÉ<Ç ºEòÚ±É ¨ÉäÆ {Égøä ½þèÆ* +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ EòÉä ÊxÉ¨ÉÆjÉhÉ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +É{É ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÒ Êb÷¤Éä]õ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¨Éä®úä ºÉÉlÉ ¨Éä®úä PÉ®ú SÉÊ±ÉB* ¨ÉèÆ Uô`öä nùVÉÇä iÉEò {ÉgøÒ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú MÉÉÆ´É Eòä ºEòÚ±É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøÒ ½þÚÆ* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉèÆ nùä¶É +Éè®ú Ê´Énùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ |É´ÉSÉxÉ Eò®úxÉä ±ÉMÉÒ lÉÒ* ¨ÉÖZÉä Eò¦ÉÒ <ÇºÉÉ<Ç ºEòÚ±É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Ê¨É±ÉÉ* ¨Éä®úä Eò¨É®úä ºÉä ±ÉMÉÉ ½þÖ+É BEò UôÉä]õÉ ºÉÉ Eò¨É®úÉ ½þè, VÉÉä ÊEò {ÉÚVÉÉPÉ®ú ½þè, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ EÞò¹hÉ EòÒ ¨ÉÚÊiÉÇ ½þè +Éè®ú nùÚºÉ®úÒ <ÇºÉÉ ¨ÉºÉÒ½þ EòÒ iÉº´ÉÒ®ú ±ÉMÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É EòÉä ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ Eò¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxÉ ºEòÚ±É ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉgøÒ ½þÚÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Ê¡ò®ú ¦ÉÒ ¨Éä®úä Eò¨É®úä ¨ÉäÆ <ÇºÉÉ ¨ÉºÉÒ½þ EòÒ iÉº´ÉÒ®ú ±ÉMÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè <ºÉÊ±ÉB EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨ÉèÆ Ê½þxnùÚ ½þÚÆ* ¨Éä®úä Ê½þxnùÚ ½þÉäxÉä {É®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉEòÒ UôÚ]õ nùÒ MÉ<Ç ½þè ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ EÞò¹hÉ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ VÉÒºÉºÉ FòÉ<º]õ EòÒ iÉº´ÉÒ®ú ¦ÉÒ +{ÉxÉä Eò¨É®úä ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉMÉÉ>ðÆ* ¨ÉèÆ Uô& ´É¹ÉÇ EòÒ =©É ºÉä ½þÒ +É®ú.BºÉ.BºÉ. EòÒ ¶ÉÉJÉÉ+ÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þÒ {ÉEEòÒ iÉlÉÉ ÊxÉ¹`öÉ´ÉÉxÉ +É®ú.BºÉ.BºÉ. ¨ÉäÆ +ÉºlÉÉ ®úJÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ½þÚÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉÆPÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÊ½þ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÒ +±ÉMÉ ¶ÉÉJÉÉBÆ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú {ÉÖ°ü¹ÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¶ÉÉJÉÉBÆ +±ÉMÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þèÆ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÖ°ü¹ÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¶ÉÉJÉÉ+ÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ |É´ÉSÉxÉ +Éè®ú ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ nùäxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB MÉ<Ç ½þÚÆ* <ºÉÊ±ÉB +ÉVÉ ªÉÊnù {ÉÊ®ú¹EÞòiÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þäÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ {ÉEEòÒ ºÉÆPÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú {ÉEEòÒ Ê½þxnùÚ ¦ÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨Éä®úä Eò¨É®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ EÞò¹hÉ EòÒ iÉº´ÉÒ®ú Eòä ºÉÉlÉ nùÚºÉ®úÒ iÉº´ÉÒ®ú VÉÒºÉºÉ FòÉ<º]õ EòÒ ±ÉMÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, +Éè®ú ´É½þÉÆ EòÉä<Ç iÉº´ÉÒ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{É <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú SÉ±ÉäÆMÉä ÊEò ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxÉ ºEòÚ±É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøxÉä Eòä EòÉ®úhÉ ½þÒ =nùÉ®úiÉÉ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ´É +ÉiÉÉ ½þè, BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* VÉÉä MÉÉÆ´É Eòä ºEòÚ±É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøÉ ½þè =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ =nùÉ®úiÉÉ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ´É ½þè, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨ÉèÆ Ê½þxnùÚ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú Ê½þxnùÚ ¨ÉÉiÉÉ-Ê{ÉiÉÉ EòÒ Ê½þxnùÚ ºÉxiÉÉxÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ VÉ¤É ¦ÉÒ +¨ÉäÊ®úEòÉ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ´É½þÉÆ VÉ½þÉÆ ¨ÉèÆ ®ú½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ =ºÉEòä +MÉ±É-¤ÉMÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä xÉ½þÒÆ Ê¨É±ÉiÉÉ* +É{É Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úäÆ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ¨ÉÆMÉ±É´ÉÉ®ú EòÉ ÊnùxÉ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ½þxÉÖ¨ÉÉxÉ SÉÉ±ÉÒºÉÉ EòÉ {ÉÉ`ö Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊEòºÉÒ SÉSÉÇ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉEò®ú ¤Éè`öiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨ÉÖZÉä ÊEòºÉÒ vÉ¨ÉÇ ºlÉÉxÉ EòÒ VÉ°ü®úiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ´É½þÉÆ {ÉÒUôä VÉÉEò®ú ¤Éè`öiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, xÉ¨ÉºEòÉ®ú Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ¨ÉÉlÉÉ ]õäEòiÉÒ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú {ÉÒUôä ¤Éè`öEò®ú ½þxÉÖ¨ÉÉxÉ SÉÉ±ÉÒºÉÉ EòÉ {ÉÉ`ö Eò®úEòä SÉ±ÉÒ +ÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉä BEò vÉ¨ÉÇ ºlÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* अध्यक्ष महोदय, मैं माननीय संगमा से एक बात और बताना चाहती हूं। मैंने १९९२ में संन्यास लिया है और मैं संन्यासी हूं। मैं हिन्दू हूं, मैं भारतीय हूं, लेकिन मैं इस बात के लिए तैयार हूं कि अगर आप इस देश से मजहबवाद को समाप्त करना चाहते हैं, अगर साम्प्रदायिकता को समाप्त करना चाहते हैं, अगर आप चाहते हैं कि एक ऐसे व्यकित का निर्माण इस दुनिया की धरती पर हो जिसका मजहब से कोई सम्बन्ध न हो, जिसके अंदर ईसा की सेवा हो, जिसके अंदर हिन्दू का उपकार हो, जिसके अंदर मुसलमान की आस्था हो, जिसके अंदर जैन की अहिंसा हो, जिसके अंदर बौद्ध की करूणा हो और जिसके अंदर सिख की श्रद्धा हो तो सबसे पहले मैं इसके लिए तैयार रहूंगी कि साम्प्रदायिकतावाद से ऊपर उठकर एक ऐसे व्यकित का निर्माण करें जिसके अंदर सभी धमर्ों के अच्छे भावों का समावेश हो। मैं आपसे पूछूंगी कि कया आप भी इस बात के लिए तैयार होंगे? आपने जिस तरह से साम्प्रदायिकता से भरा हुआ भाषण दिया, you have given the most communal speech. जितने भी भाषण यहां हुए हैं, मैं सारे के सारे पढ़े हैं। आपने जिस तरह से साम्प्रदायिकता का रंग देने की कोशिश की है, माननीय शिव शंकर जी यहां मौजूद नहीं हैं।

चूंकि मुझे समय कम दिया गया है। एक-एक लाइन का उत्तर देना है। उन्होंने झाबुआ के प्रकरण में जिक़ किया है, बैकुण्ठ लाल शर्मा "प्रेम" जो पूर्व सांसद रहे हैं और विश्व हिन्दू परिषद के पदाधिकारी हैं, मैं संगमा जी के एक वाकय का उत्तर माननीय स्पीकर साहब के माध्यम से यह देना चाहता हूं कि अगर यहां पर शर्मा जी को किसी तरह से बुलाने का उपाय हो और शर्मा जी अगर इस बात को स्वीकार कर लें कि उन्होंने इस प्रकार का स्टेटमेंट दिया है तो कानून उनको बाद में दंड देगा, सबसे पहले मैं उनको इस बात का दंड दूंगी कि अगर उन्होंने ईसाई ननों के बलात्कार के बारे में इस तरह की कोई बात की है, मैं यह कहूंगी कि झाबुआ के प्रकरण को हमने बगैर उसकी असलियत में जाए न उछाला होता तो अच्छा होता। जिन २४ लोगों को उसमें अभियुकत पाया गया है, उनमें से १२ लोग ईसाई पाए गए हैं तो जिस प्रकार से झाबुआ के बलात्कार कांड में वोटों की राजनीति, अल्पसंख्यकों की राजनीति करने की कोशिश की गई और हिन्दूओं और ईसाईयों के बीच में जो विभाजन की स्िथति पैदा करने की कोशिश की गई है तो यह ज़हर कहां तक फैलता? उससे वह बात खुल गई कि २४ लोगों में से १२ लोग ईसाई भी थे और जिन लोगों ने यह दुराचार किया है, वे महापापी हैं लेकिन उस दुराचार को जिसने धर्म की राजनीति बनाने की कोशिश की है, वे उनसे भी बड़े दुराचारी हैं और उनसे भी बड़े पापी हैं जिन्होंने झाबुआ के इस कांड को लेकर और हिन्दुओं और ईसाइयों के बीच में विभाजन करके इस प्रकार की राजनीति करने की कोशिश की।

PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM (BADAGARA): The statement made by the hon. Minister about culprits of Jhabua incident is not correct. They are not Christians.

MR. SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt.

कुमारी उमा भारती : आपके माध्यम से संगमा जी का एक वाकय याद दिलाना चाहूंगी:

"O my Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

आपने अभी जिस प्रकार की बातें संघ के बारे में कहीं और यह कहा कि हम ईसाइयों को एंटी-नेशनल कहते हैं या बी.जे.पी. के बारे में कहा कि हम ईसाइयों को एंटी-नेशनल मानते हैं, उनके चचर्ों को गिरा देना चाहते हैं, ईसाइयों को देश से हम निकाल देना चाहते हैं, उसका अगर आपके पास कहीं कोई प्रमाण नहीं है, तब फिर इसलिए आपके लिए भी मैं यही कहूंगी:

O my Father, forgive him for he knows not what he says.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : I do not know, but the whole world knows it.

कुमारी उमा भारती : आपको पता ही नहीं है कि कया बोले जा रहे हैं। हम मुसलमानों की आस्था पर कभी प्रश्न चिन्ह खड़ा नहीं करते। किसी को देशभकित का लाइसेंस बांटने वाले हम कौन होते हैं? देशभकित का सर्िटफिकेट बांटने वाले हम कौन होते हैं? चूंकि मुझे आदेश मिला कि मुझे यहां पर बोलना है और मैं पहले से इसके लिए तैयार नहीं थी, इसलिए मैंने पूरी स्पीचेज को पहले पढ़ा तो मैं यह जानकर दंग रह गई कि यहां पर चर्चा तो इस बात पर होनी चाहिए थी कि अल्पसंख्यकों पर अगर अत्याचार होते हैं तो उन अत्याचारों का मूल कारण कया होता है और उनका निदान कया होना चाहिए लेकिन यहां पर मैंने देखा कि हर जगह पर स्पीचेज को जिस प्रकार से साम्प्रदायिक रंग देने की कोशिश की गई, पी.शिव शिंकर साहब का मैं बड़ा आदर करती हूं, वे यहां पर मौजूद नहीं हैं। उन्होंने अल्पसंख्यकों पर अत्याचार का जिक़ किया है लेकिन अल्पसंख्यकों का मतलब कया है, इसकी व्याख्या भी इस देश में हो जानी चाहिए। अल्पसंख्यों का मतलब कया है, इसका मतलब एक या दो समुदाय नहीं हैं। सिख भी अल्पसंख्यकों में आते हैं। इस देश में जैन, मुस्िलम और अन्य कई समुदाय भी हैं जो काफी कम संख्या में हैं और अल्संख्यक हैं।

१९८४ के दंगों में जिस प्रकार से हजारों सिखों के मुंह में पैट्रोल डालकर आग लगाई गई, जिस प्रकार से उनको भूना गया, जिस प्रकार से हजारों स्त्रियों को विधवा बनाया गया, उसका कहीं कोई जिक़ नहीं हैं। मैं तो यह सोचती थी कि पी.शिव शंकर जी जब अल्पसंख्यकों के प्रति सहानुभूति दिखाएंगे तो कश्मीर में जो हिन्दू अल्पसंख्यक हैं और जिस प्रकार से उनको विस्थापित करके जम्मू में धकेल दिया गया, जिस प्रकार से उनकी स्त्रियों पर अत्याचार किये गये, उसका भी यहां पर जिक़ होगा, इसलिए मैं पूरे सदन से निवेदन करूंगी कि जैसे झाबुआ कांड हुआ, राजकोट की घटना का भी बार-बार जिक़ किया जा रहा है, लेकिन वहां के प्रसिपल ने बड़े विवेक का परिचय दिया, उन्होंने लिखकर माफी मांगी कि जो न्यू टेस्टामेंट की कृति को बांटने के साथ-साथ उसमें एक फॉर्म जो प्रिंट करके लगाया गया कि मैं इस बात को मानता हूं कि ईसामसीह ही एक तारणहार हैं और ईसामसीह के अलावा कोई रास्ता नहीं है, हिन्दू बच्चों को भी कहा गया कि वे भी उस फॉर्म को भरें। मैं आपके माध्यम से कहना चाहती हूं जो आपने बातें कहीं, one people, one nation and one culture.

वन नेशन पर तो आपको डिस्प्यूट नहीं होगा, वन पीपल पर भी दिककत नहीं होगी लेकिन आपको वन कल्चर पर दिककत आ रही होगी। वन कल्चर का मतलब धर्म नहीं होता है, वन कल्चर का मतलब मज़हब, विश्वास नहीं होता है। वन कल्चर का मतलब होता है "वे ऑफ लविंग" और यहां की "वे ऑफ लविंग" एक ही है कयोंकि कल्चर का मतलब "भाषा, भूषा और भोजन" होता है। कल्चर का मतलब स्त्रियों के प्रति, पड़ौसियों के प्रति, हमारे अपने देश के प्रति हमारा दृष्िटकोण होता है। उस वन कल्चर के प्रति जो हमने कहा और अगर उस बात को ठीक ढंग से समझा गया और अगर आप भी ठीक ढंग से समझ गए होते तो आपको दिककत नहीं आती। यहां पर तीन-चार दिन में जो बातें चली हैं, मैं कहूंगी कि कुछ घटनाएं घटी होंगी और कुछ लोगों पर इसलिए घटी होंगी कयोंकि वे अल्पसंखयक तबके के लोगों से संबंधित हैं लेकिन हम उन घटनाओं की प्रशंसा नहीं करते।

उमा भारती जारी हम उनका संरक्षण करना नहीं चाहते, हम किसी भी प्रकार से उनको बचाना नहीं चाहते, वे इसके लिए दंडित हों। इसमें हमारी तरफ से और हमारी सरकार की तरफ से कभी किसी प्रकार की कोई कसर नहीं रही है, लेकिन मेरी समझ में यह नहीं आ रहा कि सेकयूलरिज़म का मतलब कया होता है? अंग्रेजी में एक शब्द आंटी होता है। आंटी के हिन्दी में कई अर्थ होते हैं। आंटी का अर्थ बुआ, चाची, मौसी और मामी भी होता है। मुझे लगता है कि आंटी की तरह ही सेकयूलरिज़म शब्द हो गया है। हमें वास्तव में सेकयूलरिज़म को समझना है, कयोंकि इसके अलग-अलग अर्थ हैं। जब संगमा साहब यहां बोलेंगे तो सेकयूलरिज़म का अर्थ यहां अलग हो जाएगा, जब बाहर जाकर बोलेंगे तो उसका अलग अर्थ हो जाएगा। इसलिए हमें इस बात को समझना चाहिए कि हमने जो सेकयूलरिज़म का मतलब निकाला है वह कया निकाला है। जब जगन्नाथपुरी के शंकराचार्य जी ने एक स्त्री को वेद पढ़ने से रोका, यहां जो बंगाल और उड़ीसा के सांसद बैठे हैं उनको याद होगा कि जगन्नाथपुरी के शंकराचार्य जी ने एक महिला को वेद पढ़ने से रोका और उसे कहा कि तुम महिला हो इसलिए तुम्हें वेद पढ़ने का अधिकार नहीं है। उसका मैंने खुद विरोध किया और जब मैंने विरोध किया तो शंकराचार्य जी के एक शिष्य ने मुझ से संपर्क किया। उन्होंने कहा कि हमने महिलाओं को वेद पढ़ने से इसलिए रोका कयोंकि अगर महिलाएं वेद पढ़ेंगी तो उनके गर्भाशय पर असर पड़ेगा, तब मैंने कहा कि आप नहीं रोक सकते, मैं एक तर्क दूंगी कि अगर पुरुष वेद पढ़ेंगे तो उनके अमाशय पर असर पड़ेगा। इसलिए मैंने कहा कि मैं इस बात का समर्थन नहीं करूंगी।

महोदय, मैं आपके माध्यम से पूरे हाउस से निवेदन करना चाहती हूं कि जब जगन्नाथपुरी के शंकराचार्य जी एक महिला को वेद पढ़ने से रोकते हैं, वेद मंत्र का उच्चारण करने से रोकते हैं तो पूरा देश उनकी निन्दा करता है, उनकी भर्तसना करता है। मेरे जैसे लोग भी उसकी निन्दा एवं भर्तसना करते हैं। वे एक तरफ शंकराचार्य जी की भर्तसना करते हैं, जो स्त्री को वेद पढ़ने से रोकते हैं और दूसरी तरफ तसलीमा नसरीन को देश में आने के लिए वीज़ा भी नहीं देते हैं। एक देश में दो धाराएं नहीं चलेंगी, एक ही धारा चलेगी, कट्टरता या उदारता की धारा चलेगी। हम इसी विचार को संस्कृति कहते हैं, यह बात हमें ध्यान में रखनी चाहिए। ऐसा नहीं कि दर्द कहीं ओर हो रहा है और दवा कहीं दूसरी जगह हो रही है। एक बार एक बच्चा खेल के मैदान में खेलने के लिए गया तो उसके पांव में चोट लग गई। जब वह घर में आया तो उसने पिता जी को बताया कि मुझे चोट लग गई है तो उसके पिता ने पहले उसे थप्पड़ मारा और कहा कि मैंने तुम्हें कहा था कि तुम खेलने के लिए मत जाना और फिर कहा कि लाओ मैं तुम्हारे पांव में दवाई लगा दूं तथा यह भी कहा कि मैं जब तक तुम्हें दवाई लगाऊंगा तब तक तुम चूं मत करना। पिता उसके पांव में दवाई लगाता रहा। दवाई लगाने के बाद भी जब दर्द ठीक नहीं हुआ तो बच्चे ने पिता जी से कहा कि दर्द तो ठीक नहीं हुई, तब पिता ने पूछा कि दर्द कयों नहीं ठीक हुआ तो लड़के ने कहा कि चोट दाएं पांव में लगी थी और आप बाएं पांव में दवाई लगाते रहे, तब पिता ने कहा कि तुम बीच में कयों नहीं बोले तो उसने कहा कि आपने कहा था कि बीच में मत बोलना इसलिए मैं बीच में नहीं बोल रहा था। आप सेकयूलरिज़म का पाठ किसे पढ़ा रहे हो? इस देश के लोगों को सेकयूलरिज़म के पाठ की जरूरत नहीं है। संगमा जी, आप एक बात पककी मानिए, लालकृष्ण आडवाणी जी, अशोक सिंघल जी, रज्जू भैया तथा अन्य कोई भी इस देश को हिन्दू राष्ट्र, हिन्दू राज्य नहीं बनाना चाहता और कोई भी इस देश को हिन्दू राज्य नहीं बना सकता है, इसलिए इस देश को सेकयूलरिज़म के उपदेश की भी जरूरत नहीं है। जिस देश के करोड़ों लोगों ने धरती पर पड़े हुए कंकर से लेकर आकाश में लटके हुए चांद तारों को भी पूजा हो, जिनको श्राद्ध पक्ष में अपने पूर्वजों के नाम भी नहीं मालूम, वे भी उनके भूख-प्यास की चिन्ता करते हों, जो चांद-तारे लाखों किलोमीटर दूर आकाश में लटके हुए हैं, उनके भूख-प्यास की भी जिनको चिन्ता लगती हो, उन लोगों को सेकयूलरिज़म का पाठ पढ़ाने की जरूरत नहीं है, उनको किसी भी कीमत पर इसकी जरूरत नहीं है। जरूरत इस बात की है कि हमें इन घटनाओं की तह में जरूर जाना चाहिए। मैं इन घटनाओं की निन्दा करती हूं। जैसे मुजफफरनगर का कांड हुआ, तंदूरी कांड हुआ वैसे ही झाबुआ का कांड हुआ। मुझे नही लगता कि अपराध करने वाले लोग मजहब को ध्यान में रख कर अपराध करते हों, अगर मजहब को ध्यान में रख कर अपराध करते हैं तो उसका कठोरतम दंड उनको मिलना चाहिए।

महोदय, यहां रामविलास जी बैठे हैं उन्होंने बहुत अच्छी स्पीच दी थी। पी. शिवशंकर जी यहां मौजूद नहीं हैं, उन्होंने भी बोला। आरिफ साहब यहां नहीं हैं, उन्होंने कई बातें कही हैं, जैसे संगमा साहब बोलते समय ईसाईयों के प्रवकता लग रहे थे, मैं हिन्दुओं की प्रवकता बन कर बोलना नहीं चाहती लेकिन मैं एक बात कहना चाहती हूं कि जब आस्था के सम्मान की बात आती है तो करोड़ों हिन्दुओं ने गणेश जी को दूध पिला दिया, इसमें किसी को कया तकलीफ है। मान लीजिए करोड़ों हिन्दुओं को गणेश जी को दूध पिलाने में में शांति प्राप्त हुई, फेथ हलिंग होती है। फेथ हलिंग के नाम पर बड़ी-बड़ी कांफ्रेंसेस होती हैं। लाखों लोग इकट्ठे होते हैं। मज़ारों पर भी भूत-प्रेत की बाधा भगाने के नाम पर लाखों लोग इकट्ठे होते हैं। अंध-विश्वास अगर गलत है तो हर जगह पर गलत है, कट्टरता अगर गलत है तो हर जगह पर गलत है। लेकिन अगर यहां से यह मैसेज जाएगा ... (व्यवधान)

श्री राम विलास पासवान (हाजीपुर) : उमा जी, गणेश जी को दूध पिलाने पर आपत्ित नहीं है। गणेश जी लड्डू खाते थे और आपने दूध पिला दिया। कुमारी उमा भारती: लेकिन भाई साहब, लड्डू खाकर अगर गणेश जी का हाजमा खराब हो जाए और अगर वह दूध पीना चाहें तो आपको उसमें कया दिककत है? देखिये, अगर हम लगातार किसी एक समुदाय के ऊपर अटैक करेंगे और उनके मन में यह बात बैठाएगे कि किसी एक समुदाय को गिनी-पिग बनाया जा रहा है एकसपैरीमेंट के लिए, तो मैं कहना चाहूंगी कि ऐसा मैसेज नहीं जाना चाहिए। मैं यह नहीं कहती कि मजहब के नाम पर आक़मण नहीं होते होंगे। लेकिन आज मैं स्पीकर साहब आपके माध्यम से एक बहुत ही गंभीर निवेदन करना चाहूंगी। आप कया चाहते हैं? आप चाहते हैं कि पूरा देश साम्प्रदायिकता से ऊपर उठकर शांति से रहे। आप चाहते हैं कि आने वाली हमारी पीढ़ियां मजहबवाद, प्रांतवाद, जातिवाद, भाई-भतीजावाद, भाषावाद से ऊपर उठकर शांति से रहे, तो उसका निदान इसी संसद में है। बाहर जो लड़ाई होती है उसके बीज इसी संसद में बोये जाते हैं। जिस तरह की स्पीच संगमा साहब और राम विलास पासवान की हुई है। राम विलास जी, आप मुझे क्षमा करेंगे, मैंने आपका नाम बिना "जी" लिए बोल दिया। मैं आपको अपना बड़ा भाई मानती हूं। जिस तरह की स्पीच आरिफ मोहम्मद जी की हुई। ये भाषण ठीक नहीं हुए हैं। अगर हमें साम्प्रदायिकता को रोकना है तो संसद में बैठे हुए लोगों को यहां कदम उठाना होगा, अगर साम्प्रदायिकता की निंदा करनी है ... (व्यवधान)मैं आपके किसी पाइंट से डिस-एग्री कर सकती हूं, लेकिन मैं आपका बहुत सम्मान करती हूं, आपको बड़ा भाई मानती हूं और इससे मैं कभी डिस-एग्री नहीं करूंगी और आप भी नहीं करेंगे। इसलिए मैं यहां संसद में बैठे हुए लोगों से आग्रह करूंगी कि जब भी इस तरह की बहस चले तो साम्प्रदायिकता से ऊपर उठकर, मजहब से ऊपर उठकर बात करें।

sanctum sanctorum of a Hindu temple? कुमारी उमा भारती: संगमा साहब, अगर आपने १९८४ के दंगों की निंदा की होती, अगर आपने कश्मीर के हिंदुओं को वहां से मार भगाने की निंदा की होती, तो मैं आपके सामने नत-मस्तक हो गयी होती। लेकिन आपने जो बातें कहीं, उनका कोई आधार नहीं था। आपने हमारे राजेन्द्र गुप्ता, यहां के मनिस्टर की बात कही, जो अपनी सफाई के लिए यहां मौजूद नहीं हैं। आप रूल के नाम पर हमारे सिर पर साल-डेढ़ साल तक हथौड़े चलाते रहे, डांट पिलाते रहे। इसलिए मैं पूरे सदन से निवेदन और आग्रह करूंगी कि अगर हमें मजहब के नाम पर जो आक़मण होते हैं उन्हें रोकना है तो इसके लिए हमें बाहर जाने की जरुरत नहीं है। यहां जितने लोग बैठे हैं और बाकी जो यहां नहीं बैठे हैं अगर वे अपने दिमागों के जाले ही ठीक कर लें और आपस में तय कर लें कि इन समस्याओं का निराकरण करना है तो इन समस्याओं का निराकरण हो जाएगा। लेकिन स्वयं साम्प्रदायिकता के रंग में रंगकर इन समस्याओं का निराकरण नहीं हो पाएगा। ऊपर उठकर ही इन समस्याओं का निराकरण हो पाएगा। अगर हम ऊपर उठकर इन्हें रोकेंगे तो मुझे विश्वास है कि माइनोरिटीज पर जो एट्रोसिटीज हो रही हैं उनको हम रोक सकेंगे। माइनोरिटीज पर जो एट्रोसिटीज होती हैं उनकी हम निंदा करते हैं। हमारे माननीय अडवाणी जी आपके सामने एक-एक बात का जवाब देने वाले हैं। मैं स्वयं व्यकितगत तौर पर ऐसी घटनाओं की घोर निंदा करती हूं और इन्हीं शब्दों के साथ अपनी बात समाप्त करती हूं।

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (PONNANI): Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you.

Sir, it is a painful reality that the minorities of motherland India do not feel themselves and their culture secure in the country. During the recent months it cannot be denied that there has been an alarming increase in the incidence of atrocities against the minorities. The Muslims, the Christians, the Sikhs, all have been the targets.

Sir, I emphasise that the attacks on minorities are attacks on the culture of our motherland India. The attacks on the minorities are attacks on Indian secularism. They are attacks on the Indian Constitution itself.

The stark reality of the situation is that attacks on minorities are the outcome of the deliberate attitude of some against the minorities encouraged by the connivance and direct or indirect complicity of those of the same colour who are in Government or in administration. Sir, if you look at the features of the various atrocities on the minorities, you will find that the outstanding feature of the attacks on minorities is not only the attitude of some but also the responsibility of the Government.

We had an Unstarred Question No.1406 in the House on the atrocities on minorities. I was also one of the persons who had raised that question. In reply, with respect to Gujarat, after mentioning just one of the incidents, the hon. Home Minister had cared to say, `Apart from this, six other minor incidents took place in Gujarat. Police has taken action and brought things under control.' When this is the callous attitude of the Government, I must say that the alarming feature is the emboldened manner in which Golwalkarian thought and policy are sought to be implemented, implemented vigorously, by the fascist forces with the complicity of the Government. ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖnùªÉÉ±É Eò`öäÊ®úªÉÉ (Ê¡ò®úÉäVÉÉ¤ÉÉnù) : ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ ÊEò <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉ ½þÉlÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ +É{ÉÊiiÉVÉxÉEò ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* <ºÉ {É®ú ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä º{É¹]õÒEò®úhÉ nùä ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ xÉä º{É¹]õ Eò½þ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ ºÉÉ¡ò ½þè* ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ EòÉ Eò½þxÉÉ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Katheria, please take your seat.

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (PONNANI): There is a clear and distinct echoing of the thoughts of Golwalkar who had called upon the minorities to assume Hindu names, observe Hindu festivals and so on. Accordingly, the Uttar Pradesh Government sought to impose the compulsion of singing of Vande Mataram and Saraswati Vandana in schools. This was sought to be imposed in total defiance of the Constitution, the law, and even the spirit of the Supreme Court judgment in the case of Bijoe Emmanual and Others vs. State of Kerala, AIR 1987 SC 748. The time given by you is very short and, therefore, I will only mention the case and do not go into details. But, I may remind the House of the words of wisdom of an American judge, Justice Stone, in an American case. He said:

"The very essence of liberty which they guaranteed is the freedom of the individual from compulsion as to what he shall think and what he shall say, at least where the compulsion is to bear false witness to his religion."

Sir, Golwalkarian echoes of Uttar Pradesh were heard in Karnataka also. On July 17, handbills were distributed by Bajrang Dal. Threat have been given that in schools Hindu prayers must be conducted, portraits of Hindu goddesses must be fixed, and so on.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Ayodhya was sought to be created in Karnataka by starting the so-called movement of liberation of the Hazrat Baba Dargah there at Chikmagalur.

Look at the intensity of the situation -At Randhikpur in Gujarat. Minorities were attacked and were forced to leave the village. In the Unstarred Question that I had referred to -- put by me and others -- this was considered also as a `minor case.' ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ®úhÉ¦ÉÒEò{ÉÖ®ú ¨ÉäÆ MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ xÉä EòÉxÉÚxÉxÉ ´É½þÉÆ Eòä +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ EòÉä ºÉÆ®úIÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ´É½þ +SUôÒ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ®úhÉ¦ÉÒEò{ÉÖ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨Éä®úÉ BEò {ÉÉì<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : Therefore, such has been the response. At Banswara in Rajasthan, the Sangh Pariwar had boldly declared that `Banswara will be cleared of Christians by 2000 A.D.' Mr. Speaker, Sir, look at the official attitude. The Srikrishna Commission Report was summarily rejected by the Government of Maharashtra... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: He is not yielding. Please take your seats. ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, +É{É ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ nùäiÉä* MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ EòÉä +SUôÒ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ºÉÆ®úIÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* ªÉä EòèºÉä <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : A reign of terror was let loose on minorities in Maharashtra on the eve of the anniversary of demolition of the Babri Masjid on 6th December. During nights, the police knocked at the doors of Muslim houses in several localities like Govandi, Oshiwara, Partiksha Nagar and others, and asked for ration cards. They misbehaved with them and arbitrarily arrested those who were without ration cards. It is very unfortunate.

Sir, today Tamil Nadu also leads in indiscriminate large-scale arrests of the innocents.

Look at the official position. Here, in Delhi, we find that notices were served by sub-divisional magistrates saying that `your dead predecessors -- fathers or grandfathers -- were Pakistani nationals and now you come and disclose their properties.' Nobody wants to explain under what law, they were asked. Questions were asked. Five hundred such notices were issued. I want to speak in detail on this particular matter but due to constraint of time, I will be briefly mentioning my points. Sir, look at the various features of the atrocities. Dead body of a Christian there in Gujarat was dug out from the grave and thrown on the highway... (Interruptions)

SHRI HARIN PATHAK (AHMEDABAD): There is no graveyard... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : Sir, I should be allowed to speak. (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ½þÊ®úxÉ {ÉÉ`öEò (+½þ¨ÉnùÉ¤ÉÉnù) : ½þ¨ÉäÆ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ Ê¨É±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : ¤ÉÒVÉä{ÉÒ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ EòÉä +SUôÒ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ºÉÆ®úIÉhÉ nùä ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : Sir, the Ayodhya, Nagar Palika Parishad has passed a Resolution 16(1) saying that all the graveyards will be closed and no burial will be allowed within the limits of Ayodhya. Look at the high-handedness and the inhuman manner in which they say that no burial will be allowed in the graveyards in the limits of Ayodhya Nagar Palika Parishad. Sir, this is the height of the thing. I have written a letter to the Prime Minister regarding this matter.

It is a serious situation and the matter needs immediate attention. Such repressive measures are being taken to intimidate minorities by raiding the ancestral house of Maulana Syed Abul Hassan Ali Nadvi, the great Islamic scholar. Such is the situation. ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ (JÉMÉÊc÷ªÉÉ): ºÉ®ú, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉä +É{ÉxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè, ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉB* SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : You are also impatient and I know that there is a constraint of time. So, let me conclude by saying that the destiny of our motherland, India, lies in communal harmony and communal amity. India of our vision is India where no one for even a single moment shall be ever apprehensive of his security, the security of his culture and of his way of life. That is the India of our vision where all shall march with equal opportunities and shoulder to shoulder on the path to progress so that we are wedded into one nation which may become the envy of the world.

MR. SPEAKER: You are testing my patience also! SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : These are the things and, therefore, as I have said the stark reality of the situation today is the vigorous manner in which the Golwalkarian thoughts and policy are sought to be implemented and that must go in the larger interests of the nation and the unity and integrity of our country.

MR. SPEAKER: Shri P. C. Thomas will speak now.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish that we would not have had an Agenda like this and this Agenda we had only because of the series of incidents which took place recently and I wish to add to what the hon. Member just before me has said that secular India which we all have in our hearts should be projected as a place where everyone is secure, be he a person from a majority or a minority or any religion whatsoever. Religion should not be one which divides any person in this country. It should never be and, if it is so in any way, I think there is something for introspection.

As far as some of the atrocities are concerned, almost all of them have been mentioned here. I do not want to reiterate them. But I wish to make one point here. When Gujarat Government took action against one protest which was made in a democratic way by one community here in Delhi and in all places in India, we said in Parliament that the Gujarat Government has stated that they were going to take action against any person who protested or any institution which was going to be closed on that day. It was said in Parliament at that time that no such action was going to be taken. ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : +É{ÉEòÒ <Æ¡òÉì¨ÉÇä¶ÉxÉ MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þè* VÉÉä OÉÉx]õ ±ÉäxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ BVÉÚEòä¶ÉxÉ±É ºÉÆºlÉÉBÆ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þèÆ ´Éä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä UôÖ^Ò {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ®ú½þ ºÉEòiÉÒÆ* ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú ºÉä ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ºEòÚ±É EòÉä vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú ¤Éxnù Eò®úxÉä EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùÒ VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ +Éè®ú Ê´É¶Éä¹ÉEò®ú iÉ¤É VÉ¤É ºEòÚ±É ºÉ®úEòÉ®úÒ +xÉÖnùÉxÉ ºÉä SÉ±ÉiÉÉ ½þÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI P.C. THOMAS : I have got only two minutes' time to speak. (Interruptions)

SHRI HARIN PATHAK: It was a working day.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS : How many working days do you have? On how many working days, we have all gone into a strike? Do you take any action against all those who have gone on a protest strike? (Interruptions) It was only a protest. There was only a protest from the side of the institutions. I suppose, action was taken only in Gujarat. The Union Government did not take any action. In other places, no other State Government took action. ¸ÉÒ Ênù±ÉÒ{É ºÉÆPÉÉhÉÒ (+¨É®úä±ÉÒ): +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, SÉÚÆÊEò MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ VÉxÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉ +SUôÉ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þiÉä ÊEò MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ +SUôÉ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ SÉ±Éä <ºÉÊ±ÉB ªÉä MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ±Éä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI P.C. THOMAS : This is an atrocity. This may be taken as an atrocity on a Member belonging to a small Party! (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ BäºÉÒ ¶ÉèIÉÊhÉEò ºÉÆºlÉÉ EòÉä VÉÉä |Énùä¶É ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ Eòä +xÉÖnùÉxÉ ºÉä SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè, =ºÉä <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú ºÉä ½þc÷iÉÉ±É {É®ú VÉÉxÉä EòÒ +xÉÖ¨ÉÊiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùÒ VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ* BäºÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ºÉÆºlÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI HARIN PATHAK : It was on a Friday. That circular was issued not only to one school but it was issued to all the schools stating that the children should not be involved in these activities. (Interruptions)

SHRI P.C. THOMAS : I am given only two minutes and out of those two minutes, they have already taken three minutes! (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ½þÊ®úxÉ {ÉÉ`öEò : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú ºÉä ºEòÚ±É EòÉä ¤ÉÆnù Eò®ú Eòä ºÉc÷Eò {É®ú =iÉ®úxÉä EòÒ ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä <VÉÉVÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùÒ VÉÉBMÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Thomas, please address the Chair; do not address the Members.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS : Sir, I was trying to limit my submission to only one point.

There was a protest on the 4th December and we made it known here, we said in Parliament that one Government - I do not say the Government of Gujarat - had said that it was going to take severe action, that it was going to cut all grants to any school which was closed down that day. There was some action that they envisaged. It was then said in response, in Parliament, that nothing of that sort was going to take place. In spite of that, the management of all the schools and institutions in Gujarat which were closed on that particular day had been served notices by the officer concerned. They say that the Inspectors went on that particular day to inspect the schools and when the Inspectors went to the schools, it was found that nobody was there. They say that when it was inquired into, it was known that they were on a protest. Then, they had given a notice saying that it should be replied by the next day. Usually, seven days' time is given to reply. It was said in the show-cause notice that they should report the very next day and show cause why the grant should not be cut. Action was immediately taken. This should not be done. (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä: +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú ºÉä ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ¶ÉèIÉÊhÉEò ºÉÆºlÉÉ EòÉä ´ÉÉiÉÉ´É®úhÉ Ê¤ÉMÉÉc÷xÉä EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùÒ VÉÉBMÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Thomas, please conclude now.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS : I was trying to bring to the notice of the House that such action is being taken by a Government, the Government of Gujarat. If that is so, I think that when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is going to reply, he will be giving a reply to it in this House. I do not want to say anything more. I think that the series of atrocities which have taken place should not continue any further and that this Government should give out a very strong statement in this House that the minorities in this country will be safe and will be protected from all sorts of atrocities.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ (BARAMULLA): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think, a great responsibility has devolved on the hon. Prime Minister, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, Shri L.K. Advani.

It is a situation which is very agonising. I think, the hon. Prime Minister and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs must respond the way the nation expects. The Leader of the Shiv Sena, Shri Madhukar Sirpotdar said here that we are discussing this subject even after fifty years of Independence. Yes, it is a shame on us because there are men who subvert the Constitution of India, people who have no respect for the Constitution of India. They are all set to subvert it.

So, there is a communal tragedy and thus, we are discussing it. It is a shame on us. But somebody must go into the whole question. I was very pleasantly surprised by what my sister, Kumari Umaji has said. She said that the hathyaras - or whatever Hindi word that she used - that is, the people who commit crimes must be punished. She must also know that here in this House, Shri Sirpotdar said in his speech that they demolished the Babri Masjid. It will never be built again. That Mosque will never be built again. She called it dhancha. Kindly forget as to whether it was a Mosque or a dhancha.

The Archaeological Act of India does not allow anybody to demolish any building which is hundred years old. That Mosque was 500 years old. So, demolishing it, was a crime. Even Shri Lal Krishna Advani made a statement on that. It is very easy to say that they must be punished. I respect Kumari Uma Bharati's sentiment this time because we are on equal wave length whenever the question of nation is there. But she must rise to the occasion. She must sit with us and sort out the things and then only, her saying will influence me; otherwise, it will mean nothing. She must come forward to punish these people. When I go deep into the analysis, I want to tell this House that I satisfied myself with the hon. Home Minister's statement about Jhabua. We must put forth things before the hon. Home Minister that are correct.

We, in India, are going to the 21st century as a big nation, as a great nation. India wants to have a permanent seat in the Security Council. India has the vitality that it should have a permanent seat in the Security Council. It must have a prestige in the comity of nations. We are going to the 21st century, but we cannot go with the kind of reputation that we have earned. I am pained to say that something has happened and thus, recently the graph is showing ascendancy. The hon. Home Minister should go into this. India has a future. I have satisfied myself that India has a rich future. It will not remain just as one of big countries. It will certainly go to the level of Nehru's dreams. This time there is a unipolar system because the bipolar system is finished after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. There is such a nice situation not only in Asia, but throughout the world. China, India, Russia and America are going to be together. India will be second to none. But we have to respond to that situation. We have to remove this ailment very quickly. This is what I expect the hon. Home Minister to do.

Sir, I have to skip a lot. The minorities in this country are feeling unsafe. Shri Sirpotdar made a wrong statement because he does not have the culture and taste for history. He said: +É MÉªÉÉ ½þè, +É MÉªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉ¨ÉÇxÉÒ ºÉä Eòx´É]õÇ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* It is the birthright of Muslims to call their land as mother-land and father-land and their own land. They are not second class citizens, at the mercy of Shiv Sena. ºÉ¤É xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉªÉÉ ½þè* VÉÉä +ÉªÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¤ÉÉ¤É®ú Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¨É®úÉ ½þè +Éè®ú VÉÒªÉÉ ½þè* VÉ½þÉÆMÉÒ®ú Ê½þxnùÚ ¨ÉÉÆ EòÉ ¤Éä]õÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú ¶ÉÉ½þVÉ½þÉÆ +ÉÊnù ÊVÉiÉxÉä ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉnù¶ÉÉ½þ lÉä, ´Éä ºÉ¤É ªÉ½þÉÆ MÉÖVÉ®úä ½þèÆ* +É{É +ÆOÉäVÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ =ºÉ ºÉÉ®úä nùÉè®ú EòÉä ¦ÉÖ±ÉÉxÉä EòÉ nùÉè®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ÊMÉxÉ ºÉEòiÉä EªÉÉäÆÊEò =ºÉ {É®ú 1500 Eò®úÉäc÷ ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉÉäÆ EòÉä BiÉ®úÉVÉ ½þè* How many Moghuls came?

This is my grouse against the RSS, that they want Hindus to be revivalists, to look to the past. Looking very much to the past will be a loss to the Hindu community itself. History is like a sleeping tiger. If you awake the sleeping tiger, the first person who gets killed is the person who awakes the sleeping tiger. We must not go to the past so much. iÉÉ®úÒJÉ EòÉä, <ÊiÉ½þÉºÉ EòÉä VªÉÉnùÉ JÉÆMÉÉ±ÉxÉä ºÉä Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÉ ¨ÉÖºiÉEòÊ¤É±É `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ =nùÇÚ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* iÉÉ®úÒJÉ VÉÉä ½þè, ¨ÉÉZÉÒ VÉÉä ½þè, ´É½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê±ÉB Ê¨É¶ÉÉ±É ¤ÉxÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB iÉÉÊEò +É{ÉEòä ¦ÉÊ´É¹ªÉ EòÉ ®úÉºiÉÉ JÉÖ±É VÉÉªÉä* Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÉä +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉÉZÉÒ ºÉä ºÉ¤ÉEò ±ÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* Muslims and Christians are feeling - through you, hon. Speaker, Sir, I am telling the hon. Home Minister - very insecure. It is primarily because of the hatred campaign of the RSS.

The RSS heaved a sigh of relief when the BJP came forward to form the Government. Since then I have been watching it myself that they want the revivalist movement to be strong; they want India to be a theocratic State; and in their enthusiasm they wanted to deal greatly with the administration. They went to UP; they went to technological institutions; and they went to institutions of science. They had no right to do that. That may be a cultural party and a religious party, but they are not in the Government. If they want to do that, then they must join the Government. Before the Home Minister, they visited those places which they should not have visited. I, as a citizen of India, rise to object to that.

In due course of time, the RSS itself will become a burden for the BJP. In fact, I want the BJP to grow and evolve into a secular and national party. We shall welcome it. As long as numbers are there they have the right to rule. I cannot have any grouse on that score. But the common people and the minorities feel insecure. Even though I said that it is because of the RSS, I would like to add that it is because of the policies of the BJP also. The policies of the Government are strengthening their attitude.

I have a material with me. I cannot read this material now. This paper was presented by Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi at Paris. I have a lot of disagreement on this because it did not reflect the nation's thinking. Unfortunately, I cannot go into the details because I am speaking at the fag end on this subject. But it must go on record. In this report Dr. Joshi mentions about Aurobindo and talks of evolution. When one talks of evolution, one should accept the contributions made by Islam. I will come to that later.

MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : The Muslim community has borne the brunt of the killings, assaults and the curriculum reforms. They want to Indianise and spiritualise the Muslims and the Christians. I have a report. I will pass it on to Shri L.K. Advani because I have full faith that he would dispassionately study this. This is a report on Gujarat. If the Home Minister wants I will pass it on to him. Whatever he said about Jhabua was correct. But this is a report about Gujarat. It carries some photographs of Bardoli. A group went there and made a study.

MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Soz, you can send it to the hon. Home Minister.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : These are proven facts as to what happened to Christians and Muslims. In this group which had gone to Gujarat all but one were Hindus. I will forward it to the hon. Home Minister with the hope that he would kindly look into this. ¸ÉÒ Ênù±ÉÒ{É ºÉÆPÉÉhÉÒ : Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉiÉÉ<B* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) |ÉÉä. ºÉè¢òÖqÒxÉ ºÉÉäWÉ : +MÉ®ú +É{É SÉÉ½þäÆMÉä iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉiÉÉ>ðÆMÉÉ* ´É½þ iÉÉä +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä VªÉÉnùÉ {ÉiÉÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) A religious congregation of Christians, jeevan darshan, was directly attacked.

MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Soz, please conclude.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : Sir, I am skipping everything.

In Uttar Pradesh, there was a series of curriculum reforms. My objection is not to Vande Mataram or Saraswati Vandana as such. These are good principles and good teachings. If Shri Advani invites me to his home and wants me to sing, I can do that. ... (Interruptions) I am drawing the attention of my friends. ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EònùÇ¨É nù´Éä : ºÉ®úº´ÉiÉÒ ´ÉÆnùxÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè +Éè®ú ¤ÉSÉ{ÉxÉ ºÉä ºÉ¤É ±ÉÉäMÉ ºÉ®úº´ÉiÉÒ ´ÉÆnùxÉÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ®úº´ÉiÉÒ ´ÉÆnùxÉÉ EòÉä<Ç vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä º´É°ü{É ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Soz, please conclude.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : Sir, I am concluding.

You cannot make Saraswati Vandana or Vande Mataram compulsory because this is directly in contravention of the Constitution of India. Articles 25 and 28 say that the tax-payers' money cannot be used for promotion of any religion. That cannot be done. Nothing can be made compulsory in Government schools. Of course, you can do it in private schools.

MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Soz, please conclude.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : I want the Home Minister to take a position on articles 25 and 28 of the Constitution of India.

MR. SPEAKER: You may conclude now.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : I am concluding, Sir. I am skipping everything.

Before I conclude, I must say something about India itself, as to how we can build India for the future. Before that, I would like to mention about the Srikrishna Commission. I will not mention the Terms of Reference of the Commission. Shri Sirpotdar is our colleague and there is all the time for him to reform. In Srikrishna Commission Report, it is said that the individual and the organisation are held responsible. The organisation held responsible is, Shiv Sena and the individuals held responsible are, Shri Bal Thackerey, and Shri Sirpotdar. The Commission has also mentioned about Shri Bal Thackerey's admission in an interview that Muslims have to go from this country. I will not mention here the interview given by Shri Bal Thackerey to The Times magazine but this has been commented upon by Srikrishna Commission. I cannot go into the details of it. My colleague is here in his own authority. Srikrishna Commission wants him to reform. Through you and through the Home Minister, I wish to reform his thinking because there are strictures against him in the Srikrishna Commission's Report.

MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : I will take only one minute more. I wanted to say that Shri Bal Thackerey should not be allowed to make statements like this. He takes law in his hand and gives verdict or fatwa. He does not talk about law. That is what I want to say.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : He should not take the name of Shri Bal Thackerey.... (Interruptions) He can take my name. I am present in the House.

PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ : I have not said anything. I want you to reform your thinking. That is what Srikrishna Commission expects from you. I would like the Home Minister to ensure that nobody should be above law. We do not want a theocratic India, an India with a revivalist Hindu Movement and Chauvinism but a vibrant and strong India, an India of harmony and togetherness, India as a world power - one of the four major powers of the world. This was the dream of Jawaharlal Nehru. I would like to quote one line from his poem.

MR.SPEAKER: There is no time left now.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN (COOCHBEHAR): Will you please allow us to speak?

MR. SPEAKER: I cannot allow anybody.

PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM (BADAGARA): Why there is this discrimination?... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: There is no time left. We have already taken 10 hours whereas the allotted time was only two hours. Please cooperate with me. Now, the Home Minister will give the reply.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ (JÉMÉÊc÷ªÉÉ): +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉä iÉÉä +É{ÉxÉä ]õÉ<¨É ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: We have already taken 10 hours. We have been discussing this issue for the last four days. For how many hours do you want to discuss this?

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ: +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ BäºÉÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉB* +É{ÉxÉä |ÉÉäÊ¨ÉºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ªÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäÆMÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI N.K. PREMCHANDRAN : All the Parties represented in the House should be given an opportunity to speak.... (Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Advani Ji, we want your cooperation.... (Interruptions)

SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: With folded hands, I would say, `no'. +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : <ºÉEòä +xnù®ú ÊEòiÉxÉä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä SÉÉÆºÉ nùä ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ?

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister is waiting for the last four days to give reply in the House.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI N.K. PREMCHANDRAN : Our Party has about five Members in the House and not a single Member has been given a chance to speak. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ : +MÉ®ú ªÉä +É`ö ¤ÉVÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäÆMÉä iÉÉä ´É½þ xªÉÚWÉ ¨ÉäÆ iÉÉä VÉÉªÉäMÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: If this is the attitude of the Members, I cannot run the House.

19.00 hrs. ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: There are 42 different parties in the House. I cannot accommodate all the parties. How can I accommodate all the parties?

... (Interruptions)

PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM : Sir, I have given notice. My party is the third largest party in the House. I should get an opportunity... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Madam, from your party also somebody has spoken.

... (Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, kindly extend the time for one hour.

MR. SPEAKER: You please understand that the reply of the Home Minister is also very important. You have already taken ten hours.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ: +É{ÉxÉä |ÉÉìÊ¨ÉºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ºÉÉgøä ¤ÉVÉä ½þÉä¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäÆMÉä, +¤É ºÉÉiÉ ¤ÉVÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Only four Members have spoken from our party. There are ten more Members to speak... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ: +É{ÉxÉä |ÉÉìÊ¨ÉºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù EòÉä<Ç <¶ªÉÚ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉBMÉÉ* +¤É <¶ªÉÚ ¦ÉÒ ºÉÉ®úä +ÉxÉä SÉÉÊ½þB +Éè®ú nùºÉ-nùºÉ PÉÆ]õä BEò ½þÒ ¤É½þºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉMÉ VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ, BäºÉÉ {É½þ±Éä Eò¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É* This is not the way. Sir, you had allotted three hours. But they have already taken ten hours... (Interruptions)

SHRI N.K. PREMCHANDRAN : A person who is representing five persons in the House was given one hour and fifty minutes. But not a single person has been allowed to speak from our party. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ: ªÉ½þ º]Åä]õVÉÒ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè, Eò±É ¦ÉÒ EòÉä<Ç Ê¤É±É {ÉÉºÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉä ÊnùªÉÉ, +ÉVÉ ¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉä ÊnùªÉÉ* VÉ¤É ºÉ®úEòÉ®úÒ Ê¤ÉVÉxÉäºÉ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè ªÉä ½þ¨É±ÉÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Why are you opposing? Heavens will not fall if the time is extended by one hour. You want our cooperation and if we want to speak, you will not allow. Why do you get angry for this? JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ VÉÒ UôÉäÊc÷B, EªÉÉäÆ xÉÉ®úÉVÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* Sir, my Members are sitting here for the last five days throughout... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I am also sitting. Everybody is sitting.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ: `öÒEò ½þè Ê¡ò®ú Ê®ú{±ÉÉ<Ç Eò±É ½þÉäMÉÉ +Éè®ú +ÉVÉ ÊVÉiÉxÉä ºÉnùºªÉ SÉÉ½þäÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ±ÉäÆ* |ÉÉä. {ÉÒ.VÉä. EòÖÊ®úªÉxÉ : VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ =xÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä nùäÆ* MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. We are discussing about the extension of time only. I want to accommodate everybody. I have no discrimination between lady and male Members.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please understand that the Minister is going to reply tomorrow. If the Members agree, I seek the permission of the House to extend the time by half an hour, that is, up to 7.30 p.m. The only condition is that each Member must take only three minutes.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI : If there are Members from the Opposition who are speaking, let the Members from the Government side also get a chance. There have been so many Members from the Government side who had approached me. We had allotted their names and all of them have been waiting to speak.

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Let it be extended by one hour.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I have no objection.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to extend the time by one hour?

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: Even in that case, each Member will speak for three to four minutes. The reply will be tomorrow.

Shri Amar Roy Pradhan to speak.

¸ÉÒ +¨É®ú ®úÉªÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ (EòÚSÉÊ¤É½þÉ®ú): +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, +É{ÉEòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ-¤É½þÖiÉ vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù ÊEò +É{ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* +ÉVÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú, ¨ÉWÉ½þ¤É Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú VÉÉÆiÉ{ÉÉÆiÉ Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú, VÉÉä +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú +Éè®ú ¶ÉÉä¹ÉhÉ EòÒ PÉ]õxÉÉBÆ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ, =x½þäÆ nùäJÉEò®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ±ÉMÉiÉÒ ½þè +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ ±ÉäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ VÉÉä lªÉÉä®úÒ ½þè, lÉÒÊºÉºÉ ½þè, ÊSÉÆiÉxÉ ½þè, ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ ½þè ÊEò BEò nùä¶É Ê½þxnùÚ ®úÉ¹]Å, BEò ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ Ê½þxnùÒ +Éè®ú <ºÉÊ±ÉB +É{É BEò vÉ¨ÉÇ Ê½þxnùÚ ¨ÉÉÆMÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ? ¤É½þxÉ =¨ÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ vÉèªÉÇ ºÉä ºÉÖxÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É Eòä ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä ºÉèEòÖ±ÉÊ®úV¨É ½þè, =ºÉä +É{ÉxÉä BEò føÆMÉ ºÉä ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ®úJÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ ÊEò +ÉÆ]õÒ EªÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè? +ÉÆ]õÒ ¨ÉÉèºÉÒ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, +ÉÆ]õÒ EòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ¤ÉÖ+É ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ nùÖJÉ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò VÉÉä 6 ÊnùºÉ¨¤É®ú, 1992 EòÉä +É{ÉxÉä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ, ´É½þ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ MÉÆ¦ÉÒ®úiÉÉ ºÉä, ¤É½þÖiÉ vÉèªÉÇ ºÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä {ÉgøÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þè +Éè®ú ºÉÖxÉÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þè* ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù ÊMÉ®úxÉä Eòä Uô: ºÉÉ±É Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{ÉxÉä VÉÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÒ ½þè, +É{ÉxÉä VÉÉä EòÖUô ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ½þè, VÉÉä {ÉÒc÷É, VÉÉä nùÖJÉ +xÉÖ¦É´É ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ +xÉÖ¦É´ÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉÖZÉä BäºÉÉ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þÖ+É ÊEò ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +¦ÉÒ VÉÉä EòÖUô ªÉ½þÉÆ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¦ÉÚ±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þè +Éè®ú xÉB føÆMÉ ºÉä, ºÉèEòÖ±ÉÊ®úV¨É ºÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä SÉ±ÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É? +É{É Ê¶ÉIÉÉ Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú +É{É ºÉ®úº´ÉiÉÒ ´ÉÆnùxÉÉ SÉ±ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +É{É ÊºÉxÉä¨ÉÉ BE]õ®ú Ênù±ÉÒ{É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ Eòä PÉ®ú {É®ú xÉÉ®úä ±ÉMÉ´ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +É{É vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú ¤ÉÉ<¤É±É VÉ±ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* EªÉÉ +É{É VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ¤ÉÉ<¤É±É VÉ±ÉÉxÉä ºÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ <¨ÉäVÉ ÊMÉ®ú MÉ<Ç ½þè? ¨ÉèÆ VªÉÉnùÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÚÆMÉÉ* +É{ÉxÉä VÉèºÉä Eò½þÉ, ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ®ú Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®ú nùÚÆMÉÉ* +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : iÉÒxÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÊ®úB* ¸ÉÒ +¨É®ú ®úÉªÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ : Eò¨É ºÉä Eò¨É SÉÉ®ú Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ EòÒÊVÉB* ÊºÉ¡òÇ ¤ÉÉ<¤É±É {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ, +É{É ºÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉMÉ ±ÉMÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ VÉ±ÉiÉÉ ®ú½þä +Éè®ú +É{É Ê½þxnùÖi´É EòÉ |ÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®úiÉä ®ú½þäÆ* +¨É®ú ®úÉªÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ VÉÉ®úÒ <ºÉºÉä EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÉ, <ºÉºÉä iÉÉä BäºÉÉ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É {Éc÷iÉÉ ½þè ÊEò VÉèºÉä ®úÉä¨É VÉ±ÉiÉÉ ®ú½þÉ +Éè®ú xÉÒ®úÉä ¤ÉÒxÉ ¤ÉVÉÉiÉÉ ®ú½þÉ* +MÉ®ú BäºÉÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ½þÖ+É iÉÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ nùÖJÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉäMÉÒ* +É{ÉxÉä Ê½þxnùÚ nù¶ÉÇxÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ, Ê½þxnùÚ nù¶ÉÇxÉ ¨ÉäÆ SÉÉ®ú´ÉÉEò EòÉ nù¶ÉÇxÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þè, VÉÉä SÉÉ®ú´ÉÉEò Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉÉ ÊEò ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ EòÉèxÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) {ÉiÉÆVÉÊ±É ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò |ÉäMÉ¨ÉäÊ]õEò Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉèiÉÉ Eò®úÉä* ªÉ½þ iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê½þxnùÚ vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä >ð{É®ú ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ VªÉÉnùÉ {ÉgøÉ-Ê±ÉJÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ, ¨ÉèÆ Ê´ÉuÉxÉ ´ªÉÊEiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÆÊb÷iÉ ¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ* +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè ÊEò +É{É Ê´É´ÉäEòÉxÉÆnù {É®ú Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* VÉ¤É ´É½þ Ê¶ÉEòÉMÉÉä ºÉä ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ +ÉB iÉÉä =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ-

"If you have faith in all the 330 millions of your mythological Gods and all the Gods which foreigners have now and again introduced into your midst, and still have no faith in youselves, there is no salvation for you. Have faith in yourselves and stand up on that faith and be strong. That is what we need today."

This is said by Swami Vivekananda. He was the first man in our country who said:

"I am a Communist not because of the fact that it is ideal but because half a loaf is better than nothing." ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê½þxnùÚ vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä nù¶ÉÇxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò<Ç Ê´É¦ÉÉMÉ ½þè- EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þè* +É{É Ê½þxnùÚ vÉ¨ÉÇ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, Ê½þxnùÚ vÉ¨ÉÇ ¨ÉäÆ iÉÉä ¦ÉÊEiÉ ¨ÉÉMÉÇ Eòä nù¶ÉÇxÉ ½þèÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ ¦ÉÖJÉ¨É®úÒ ½þè, ÊVÉxÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ ¨ÉEòÉxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, Eò{Éc÷É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB +É{ÉxÉä EªÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè? +É{É Ê½þxnùÚ, ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ EòÉä +±ÉMÉ Eò®úEòä nùäJÉiÉä ½þèÆ* "Divide and rule policy" had been adopted by the Britishers in this country and at the time of partition too, they adopted that policy. You cannot deny it. The Congress people had supported in dividing India. At that time, I think Shri Advani was a student and I was also a student. And you Hindu-Messiah people, under the leadership of Dr. Munje, had decided that partition must be there. By this way, you had divided India. +É{ÉxÉä ºÉÉ¨|ÉnùÉÊªÉEòiÉÉ EòÉ ¤ÉÒVÉ ®úÉä{ÉhÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, +É{É BEò vÉ¨ÉÇ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ nùÚºÉ®úä vÉ¨ÉÇ EòÉä ±Éc÷ÉxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ Ê½þxnùÚ, ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É, ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxÉ ¤ÉÉä±É Eò®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úxÉÉ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÒ VÉÉä ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB ´É½þ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ +É{ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ +{ÉxÉÉ<Ç ½þè* ªÉ½þ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ vÉ¨ÉÇ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä >ðÆSÉÉ ½þè, ºÉ¤ÉºÉä >ð{É®ú ¨ÉxÉÖ¹ªÉ ¸Éä¹`ö ½þè, ªÉ½þ vÉ¨ÉÇ +É{ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉxÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉÖZÉä +É¶ÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +É{É ºÉäEªÉÚ±ÉÊ®úWÉ¨É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úäÆMÉä +Éè®ú VÉÉä ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè =ºÉä ¨ÉÉxÉ ±ÉäÆMÉä iÉlÉÉ =ºÉä `öÒEò føÆMÉ ºÉä ±ÉÉMÉÚ Eò®úäÆMÉä* ¸ÉÒ ½þÊ®úxÉ {ÉÉ`öEò (+½þ¨ÉnùÉ¤ÉÉnù) : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù* Ê{ÉUô±Éä Eò<Ç ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ºÉä ºÉnùxÉ BEò ºÉÆ´ÉänùxÉ¶ÉÒ±É Ê´É¹ÉªÉ {É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ºÉ¨ÉªÉ EòÉ +¦ÉÉ´É ½þè <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ VªÉÉnùÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉ¦ÉÒ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ Eòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉÖxÉäÆ* ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ nùÖJÉ ½þè ÊEò VÉÉä ºÉÆ´ÉänùxÉ¶ÉÒ±É ¨ÉÖqÉ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉä ±ÉäEò®ú ½þ¨ÉäÆ nùnùÇ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè =ºÉ ¨ÉÖqä {É®ú ¤É½þÖiÉ Eò¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +{ÉxÉä Ê´ÉSÉÉ®ú ®úJÉä ªÉÉ =ºÉEòÒ ÊSÉxiÉÉ VÉiÉÉ<Ç* ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨Éä®úä PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¨Éä®úÒ ¤Éä]õÒ EòÒ Eò®úÒ¤ÉxÉ føÉ<Ç ºÉÉ±É EòÒ BEò UôÉä]õÒ ¤Éä]õÒ ½þè* ´É½þ PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ JÉä±ÉiÉä-JÉä±ÉiÉä ÊMÉ®ú VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè +Éè®ú =ºÉä lÉÉäc÷Ò-¤É½þÖiÉ SÉÉä]õ ±ÉMÉiÉÒ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉxÉä nùäJÉÉ ½þè ÊEò VÉ¤É ´É½þ ÊMÉ®ú VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè iÉÉä ½þ¨É =ºÉä nùäJÉiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò +®úä, Ê¤ÉÊ]õªÉÉ ÊMÉ®ú MÉ<Ç iÉÉä ´É½þ ÊSÉ±±ÉÉxÉä, ®úÉäxÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÒ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ½þÊ®úxÉ {ÉÉ`öEò : +MÉ®ú =ºÉEòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä ½þ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ nùäJÉiÉä iÉÉä JÉc÷É ½þÉäEò®ú SÉ±ÉxÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÒ ½þè, =ºÉä {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEò ´É½þ ÊMÉ®ú MÉªÉÒ ½þè* ¨ÉÖZÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨É Ê{ÉUô±Éä Eò<Ç ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ºÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ BäºÉÉ ½þÒ ´ªÉ´É½þÉ®ú Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* VÉÉä UôÉä]õä-UôÉä]õä, +É<ºÉÉä±ÉäÊ]õb÷, ±ÉÉäEò±É ¨ÉÖqä ½þèÆ =xÉEòÉä ½þ¨ÉxÉä +{ÉxÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉEò®ú {ÉÚ®úä nùä¶É EòÉä BäºÉÉ ¨ÉèºÉäVÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò {ÉÚ®úÉ +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEò ºÉ¨ÉÖnùÉªÉ <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÖ®úÊIÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô ±ÉÉäMÉ =xÉEòÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É ºÉä ¦ÉMÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉnùxÉ ºÉä ÊxÉEò±ÉiÉÒ ½þè, VÉèºÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ +b÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉä VÉÉä ºÉÖ®ú ÊxÉEò±ÉiÉÉ ½þè ´É½þ ºÉÖ®ú PÉ]õxÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÒ ½þEòÒEòiÉ ºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ MÉÆ¦ÉÒ®ú ½þè, ¤É½þÖiÉ VªÉÉnùÉ SÉäiÉÉ´ÉxÉÒ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ¤ÉxÉiÉÉ ½þè* 19.16 hrs. 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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆxÉä MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ EòÉ =±±ÉäJÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ºÉ¨ÉªÉ Eò¨É ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ {ÉÚ®úÒ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ¨Éä®úä Ê¨ÉjÉ ¤ÉiÉÉ ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò MÉÖVÉ®úÉiÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä =xÉ ºEòÚ±ÉÉäÆ {É®ú xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ VÉÉ®úÒ ÊEòªÉÉ ÊVÉx½þÉäÆxÉä Ê½þººÉÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ lÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò SÉÉ®ú ÊnùºÉ¨¤É®ú EòÉä ¶ÉÖFò´ÉÉ®ú lÉÉ* EªÉÉ <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ºEòÚ±ÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉSSÉÉäÆ EòÉä ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉEò +Éè®ú vÉÉÊ¨ÉÇEò ®úèÊ±ÉªÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ±Éä VÉÉxÉä EòÒ UôÚ]õ ½þè* EòÉèxÉ ºÉä ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ºEòÚ±É ¤ÉÆnù Eò®ú nùÉä* SÉÉ½þä ´É½þ ¦ÉÉVÉ{ÉÉ EòÒ ®úè±ÉÒ ½þÉä, Eò¨ªÉÖÊxÉº]õ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ ®úè±ÉÒ ½þÉä ªÉÉ Ê¡ò®ú ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ vÉ¨ÉÇ EòÒ ®úè±ÉÒ ½þÉä* ´É½þÉÆ {É®ú ºEòÚ±ÉÉäÆ xÉä {É½þ±Éä ºÉä BxÉÉ>ðÆºÉ Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ ÊEò SÉÉ®ú iÉÉ®úÒJÉ EòÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºEòÚ±É ¤ÉÆnù ®ú½þäÆMÉä* UôÉä]õä-UôÉä]õä ¨ÉÉºÉÚ¨É ¤ÉSSÉä ÊVÉx½þäÆ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEò vÉ¨ÉÇ EªÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, ÊEòºÉEòÉä VÉ±ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ªÉÉ ¨ÉÉ®úÉ MÉªÉÉ* VÉ¤ÉnùÇºiÉÒ ºEòÚ±É Eòä ±Éc÷EòÉäÆ EòÉä ®úè±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ±Éä MÉªÉä* ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä ÊEòºÉÒ BEò ºEòÚ±É {É®ú ºÉEòÇÚ±É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò EòÉä<Ç ºEòÚ±É +{ÉxÉä ¤ÉSSÉÉäÆ EòÉä ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ PÉºÉÒ]õä* ®úÉVÉEòÉä]õ EòÒ PÉ]õxÉÉ EòÉ =±±ÉäJÉ ½þÖ+É ½þè* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ®úÉVÉEòÉä]õ EòÉ ªÉ½þ +É<Ç.{ÉÒ.Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ ºEòÚ±É ½þè ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ 1800 ¤ÉSSÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ 15 ¤ÉSSÉä ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxºÉ ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ {ÉÉ`öEò : 1775 xÉÉìxÉ ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxºÉ ½þèÆ* ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ ªÉ½þ ¡òÉä]õÉäOÉÉ¡ò ½þè* xÉªÉÉ Eò®úÉ®ú xªÉÚ ]õèº]õÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ Eòä +ÉÊJÉ®úÒ {ÉxxÉä ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÉ{ÉÒ ½þÚÆ* 9-10 ºÉÉ±É Eòä ¤ÉSSÉä EòÉä Eò½þÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò {ÉgøÉä +Éè®ú Eò¤ÉÚ±É Eò®úÉä ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÉ{ÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉ{ÉÉäÆ Eòä EòÉ®úhÉ ªÉÒ¶ÉÖ ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ EòÉä FòÉºÉ {É®ú SÉgøÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ lÉÉ* ¨ÉÉºÉÚ¨É ¤ÉSSÉÉäÆ Eòä Ênù¨ÉÉMÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÒxÉiÉÉ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ´É {ÉènùÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* ÊEòºÉÒ vÉ¨ÉÇ ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉSSÉÉ {ÉÉ{ÉÒ ¤ÉxÉä* Eò½þÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ºÉÉ<xÉ Eò®úÉä ÊEò ¨Éä®úÉ iÉÉ®úhÉ½þÉ®ú ªÉ½þÒ ½þÉäMÉÉ* ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ EòÉ ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ <ºÉEòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùäiÉÉ* ¨ÉÉºÉÚ¨É ¤ÉSSÉÉäÆ ºÉä VÉ¤ÉnùÇºiÉÒ Ê±ÉJÉ´ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ +Éè®ú =xÉEòä ºÉÉ<xÉ Ê±ÉB MÉB* ªÉ½þ ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ½þè* I would quote Article 28(3) and then complete my speech. I quote:

23(3). No person attending any educational institution recognised by the State or receiving aid out of State funds shall be required to take part in any religious instruction that may be imparted in such institution or to attend any religious worship that may be conducted in such institution or in any premises attached thereto unless such person or, if such person is a minor, his guardian has given his consent thereto. ¨ÉÉÆ-¤ÉÉ{É Eòä ºÉÉ<xÉ Ê±ÉB MÉB xÉ½þÒÆ* ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ºEòÚ±É Eòä |ÉvÉÉxÉÉSÉÉªÉÇ xÉä ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉÒ* ªÉ½þÉÆ ½þEòÒEòiÉ EòÉä =±]õÉ Eò®úEòä ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* Eò{Éb÷´ÉÆVÉ ¨ÉäÆ ´ÉÉPÉ®úÒ ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ´É½þ Eò{Éc÷ÉäÆ Eòä ¤Énù±Éä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉiÉÇxÉ ¤ÉäSÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ´Éä ºÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä ªÉ½þ EòÉ¨É Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* =xÉEòä ´É½þÉÆ ÊEòºÉÒ ¨ÉÖnùÇä EòÉä nù¡òxÉÉªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ MÉªÉÉ* ´É½þÉÆ 40 ºÉÉ±É ºÉä ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¨ÉäÆ {ÉÚVÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* ´É½þ ´ÉÉPÉ®úÒ ¦ÉÉ<ªÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¤ÉºiÉÒ ½þè* ´É½þ ¥ÉÉ½¨ÉhÉ´ÉÉnù ªÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ +{É®ú E±ÉÉºÉ EòÒ ¤ÉºiÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ´É½þÉÆ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä {ÉÉnù®úÒ VÉ¤ÉnùÇºiÉÒ Ê{ÉUô±Éä 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DENNIS (NAGERCOIL): Mr. Chairman, Sir, our country is multi-religious, multi-lingual and multi-cultural and it is our endeavour and anxiety to achieve `Unity in Diversity'. The number of incidents of atrocities on the minorities is on the increase and in recent years and it is increasing with unprecedented magnitude in the current year.

The freedom of religion and the rights of minorities are enshrined in articles 19 to 30 of our Constitution. Right to profess, practise and propagate religion is provided in article 25 of the Constitution. The spirit of the Preamble of our Constitution is also to promote the rights of minorities.

The protection is extended to the minorities in our Constitution and by the world bodies. But there are erosions and violations on these protections by the implementing authorities and individuals. There is interference in the administration of educational and other institutions run by minorities and thus frequently, they have to seek remedies through courts to safeguard their rights and privileges.

There are reports of several incidents of violence against minorities, namely murder and manhandling of priests, manhandling and rape of nuns, damage of Churches, hospitals, educational and other institutions run by minorities, disturbing prayer meetings, destruction of the copies of the Bible and New Testaments, harassment and violence against the Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe Christians.

The violent incidents and atrocities have been pointed out in this House and also by the Press. Since the time at my disposal is very short, I would like to cite brirfly some of the atrocities. In Bihar on 2.9.97. Father Christudas was assaulted and paraded naked in the streets of Dumka. Father A.T. Thomas was murdered in Hazaribagh on 22.10.97. In Gujarat, several copies of the Bible and New Testaments were burnt in a 103-year old missionary school at Rajkot by anti-social and fundamentalist elements. In Madhya Pradesh, the incidents of brutal assault and rape of four nuns and looting was committed in a tribal village of Jhabua district. In Maharashtra, the Government rejected the Srikrishna Report on the communal riots that took place in Mumbai in 1992-93. In Rajasthan, there were widespread attacks and also harassment against the Christian schools and other educational institutions. In Uttar Pradesh, a Convent was looted at Baghpur, and a Church was attacked and destroyed at Meerut . These incidents and other atrocities would show that minorities are insecure.

Going by the recent trend of atrocities, I would like to say that the reasons behind the atrocities are political and religious. Violence against Christians has become a political pastime of politicians and anti-social elements. They try to shift the blame on Christians that convernsion is the motive behind the service.

It is a misconception to state that the number of Christians have increased by birth and conversion. The percentage of Christians as per the Census in 1961 was 2.4 per cent whereas in 1991 Census, it was 2.32 per cent. So, there is a decline in the percentage of Christians. The blame that conversion is the motive behind the service is not correct I would like t as pointed out earlier.

The Christianity had been followed in India from the first century when St. Thomas was one of the disciples of Jesus Christ who came to Kerala and some other places. It is not the import of Europeans. From the first century, including the 300 years of the British rule, now the percentage of Christians is only 2.32 per cent.

The Christians feel that they are Indians first. When we go to the Church, inside the Church, we offer worship in the Christian form. But when we come out of the Church, we feel that we are Indians.

The contribution of Christians for the progress and development of the nation is considerable particularly in the fields of education, and medicine, and other social activities. They extend these services to the poor, downtrodden and weaker sections with a service motive.

The last point is that immediate action has to be taken against the culprits. The failure of the Government to take timely and proper action is one of the main reasons for these atrocities.

So, the Government should be vigilant and it should take proper action. Rapid Action Force has to be deputed to assist the State Governments to control communal disturbances. Action should be taken against the forces which spread ill-will or hatred and communal disharmony among the people.

Communal riot prone areas have to be identified and Peace Committees have to be constituted at the District level and upto the Village level.

Lastly, an atmosphere has to be created to make the minorities feel that they could live in peace and are secure in the country. That would uphold the principles of democracy and secularism and promote unity and integrity of the country. ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, EªÉÉ ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ºÉÉÆºÉnùÉäÆ EòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä ½þäiÉÖ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ nùäxÉÉ +É{ÉEòÒ ºÉÚSÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè? ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : Eò¤É? +¦ÉÒ iÉEò iÉÒxÉ-SÉÉ®ú ÊnùxÉ <ºÉ Ê´É¹ÉªÉ {É®ú ¤É½þºÉ ½þÉä SÉÖEòÒ ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{ÉxÉä ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉä BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ EòÉ ¦ÉÒ ]õÉ<¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{ÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : +É{É SÉäªÉ®ú {É®ú ½þèÆ, ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ +´ÉºÉ®ú Eò¤É Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ? ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : <ºÉÒÊ±ÉB +É{ÉEòÉä VÉ°ü®ú ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉBMÉÉ* EÞò{ÉªÉÉ ¤ÉèÊ`öB* ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ.+É®ú.ÊEòÆÊb÷ªÉÉ* 1936 hours SHRI P.R. KYNDIAH (SHILLONG): Mr. Chairman, Sir, a few months ago when the hon. Home Minister came to Shillong, which is my constituency, he made a very important statement that he would invite the people of the hilly areas and the region of the North-East to adopt a cosmopolitan society. I was very much in agreement with that statement. I felt that that was a very good signal.

The other day, Shri Advani gave a statement here concerning the rape of the nuns in Jhabua, Madhya Pradesh and he condemned the action as atrocious. These are welcome signs. But at the same time, I would like to make a mention here as to what happened in the last nine months. There is a kind of a concerted action against the minorities and I would particularly refer to the Christian community as a whole.

This is the first time that there is a sharp rise in the number of atrocities against Christians as a community. I cannot say that I would blame the Government. But there are elements in the society which are trying to downgrade the character of Indian nationalism. I do not want to speak against anyone but the point at issue is this. The stark reality is that these are the incidents which have not isolated in character. They are widespread. They cover Gujarat, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and a number of other States. So, it is widespread in nature. Therefore, the fact remains that there are incidents which are of a widespread character, which must be admitted.

Now my point here is that this is the first time that peace-loving Christians came out in the streets on the 4th of this month. Never before they came out except in 1970s to protest against the Freedom of Religion Bill.

I just want to ask one question. Why is that the number of atrocities increased during the last nine months, after the BJP-led Government came to power? I cannot say anything critical against any person in the Government but the perception remains that the BJP is a party with a difference. That is what they claim. But it has three different faces -- the VHP, Bajrang Dal and RSS. We see the face of the BJP through the VHP; we see the face of the BJP through the Bajrang Dal; and we see the face of the BJP through the RSS. It is a split personality. It is time that the BJP Government make it clear whether the VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal are their associates; they speak on their behalf or they speak on their own.

The BJP must dissociate itself from these organisations.

Before I conclude, I would like to say that in three States in the North-East where Christians are demographically dominant, the RSS has been spreading its tentacles. It is planning to build more than 250 temples. It is a kind of sinister design which will lead to confrontation and there will be no peace and the climate of hostility will prevail.

I would like to make one appeal to you that you come out with a White Paper and make a clear statement as to what are the steps that you are going to take in order to combat these fundamentalist outfits who are establishing hostile postures against the minorities. So, this is my appeal to you.

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"The complaint of Chetan Bhai Sankare Bhai, Parvi Taluka, against Mrs. Grace Mathew, organiser of the Christian Sammelan alleging that they were coercing the participants to take to Hinduism and to convert..." ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : BEºÉ{±ÉäxÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉB, Eòä´É±É {´ÉÉ<Æ]ºÉ ¤ÉiÉÉ<B* PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM (BADAGARA): I thank you for the opportunity given to me. I have been waiting here for five days to get this opportunity. A very serious and a very passionate discussion has gone by on this issue under Rule l93 and here in my opinion there are two important issues involved in respect of this discussion on the atrocities on minorities.

One is the human rights issue and the other is the unity and integrity of India. Many speakers from the Treasury Benches have been saying that Hindus are the majority and they constitute 85 per cent of the population and that the Hindu majority are being put to difficulties. I am a born Hindu but I do not subscribe to the views expressed by the people from the Treasury Benches and what I want to make clear is that the majority of the Hindus who form 85 per cent of the total population do not subscribe to the views expressed by the Members of the Treasury Benches.

I wanted to make this clear. Though I am a born Hindu I do not subscribe to this view and what I want to make doubly sure is that this is not the view actually expressed by or felt by a majority of the Hindus who form 85 per cent of the population. (Interruptions)

Do not disturb me.

I am a born Hindu. I know what Hinduism is. This culture is mosaic. I am a student of history also. I wanted to make this clear to the entire nation -- not merely to the Members of this House but to the entire nation -- that this is a mosaic culture and it is a pluralistic culture, it is a composite culture and from time immemorial persons were coming to from other countries.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM : I am speaking on behalf of my party. Two others from my party have dropped. I must get enough compensating time.

So many have come from ancient times onwards. Aryans, Khushans, Scythians, Sagas. Parthians and several others came. Then later came the Muslims and the Christians also. We cannot wipe off all these features of culture. We cannot wipe off all those people. What I wanted to make clear is that the human rights are involved here with atrocities committed on the minorities especially the Muslims and the Christians.

Our Constitution guarantees Fundamental Rights to all individuals plus special rights to minorities, the right to live, right to freedom of expression and to profess our religion also. Here the bogey raised is about conversions and foreigners.

Recently on the l4th November an incident took place in my State involving some Brothers and some Missionaries.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Shakuni Choudhary.

PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM : I want to speak for two more minutes. I am not given an opportunity.

I want to say that the Home Minister has made a statement about Jhabua that Christians were involved. That is wrong. I had been to that place and met the Police authorities. Actually, the persons involved were some Adi Vasis belonging to the Bhil community. I want to make it clear that Christians were not responsible for this incident.

Another thing is, whenever there is atrocity, the justification given is, the bogey of conversion and foreigners. Christians and Muslims are actually part of the country. From time immemorial, many have come to India.

Babri Masjid cannot be brought back to life. It was part of our culture. Now, the hon. Prime Minister and the Home Minister have said certain things in retrospect. But Babri Masjid cannot be brought back to life.

¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, +É{ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä VÉÉä ¨ÉÉèEòÉ ÊnùªÉÉ, <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ SÉäªÉ®ú EòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ-¤É½þÖiÉ vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù nùäiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +ÉVÉ VÉÉä Eò<Ç ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ºÉä +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ {É®ú +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +MÉ®ú +É{ÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ Ê±ÉÊJÉiÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ½þè iÉÉä ºÉnùxÉ Eòä {É]õ±É {É®ú ®úJÉ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉªÉä, =ºÉä {ÉgøÉ ½þÖ+É ¨ÉÉxÉÉ VÉÉªÉäMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ½þ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉä +É¶SÉªÉÇ ½þÖ+É* +É{É ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ Eò®ú´ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, +É{É SÉäªÉ®ú ºÉä Eòh]ÅÉä±É EòÒÊVÉB xÉ* +É{É SÉäªÉ®ú ºÉä Eòh]ÅÉä±É EòÒÊVÉB, +¦ÉÒ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, +É{É EªÉÉ EòÒÊVÉBMÉÉ* +¦ÉÒ Eò<Ç ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) PROF. A.K. PREMAJAM : In my own State of Kerala, there was an incident where two brothers belonging to the Jacobite community had been attacked. Here also, the justification given was, conversion and foreigners. ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : <xÉEòÉ JÉi¨É ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ* <xÉEòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ ½þÖ+É, <xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉªÉäMÉÒ* =xÉEòÉ Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : Ê¡ò®ú ±ÉÉäMÉ Eò½þäÆMÉä ÊEò ¨ÉÊ½þ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ {É®ú +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ªÉä ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, +É{ÉEòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ ½þÖ+É* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, +MÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆ EòÖUô ¤ÉÉä±ÉÚÆMÉÉ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉä xÉ, <xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ |ÉÉäÊºÉÊb÷ÆMºÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè* (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè? ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, +¦ÉÒ Eò<Ç ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ºÉä ºÉ¦ÉÒ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÖxÉ ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{ÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉ½þ +xÉÖ¦É´É ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò BäºÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, +¦ÉÒ iÉEò ÊVÉiÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉ®ú Êb÷¤Éä]õ ½þÖ<Ç, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù VÉ°ü®ú ®ú½þiÉÒ ½þè* ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù {É®ú ±ÉÉäMÉ VÉ°ü®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä, SÉÉ½þä ÊVÉiÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉ®ú ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þºÉ ½þÉä* ¨ÉèÆxÉä +xÉÖ¦É´É ÊEòªÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ºÉ¦ÉÒ ´ÉMÉÇ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä, SÉÉ½þä ´Éä ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É ¦ÉÉ<Ç ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä, SÉÉ½þä ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxÉ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä ªÉÉ +Éè®ú ÊVÉiÉxÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉ½þ +xÉÖ¦É´É ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ºÉ½þÒ ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ ªÉä vÉÉÊ¨ÉÇEò xÉäiÉÉ ±ÉÉäMÉ +ÉªÉä ½þÖB ½þèÆ, ªÉä vÉÉÊ¨ÉÇEò xÉäiÉÉ EòÒ iÉ®ú½þ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ºÉ½þÒ ¨ÉäÆ +MÉ®ú {ÉÚÊUôªÉä ÊEò <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ºÉä +É¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä ¨ÉèºÉäVÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ ÊxÉÊ¶SÉiÉ °ü{É ºÉä ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò VÉ¤É ªÉ½þÉÆ <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ * Not Recorded. EòÉ ´ÉÉiÉÉ´É®úhÉ ½þè, ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä VÉÉä ¨ÉèºÉäVÉ Ê¨É±ÉiÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ MÉ±ÉiÉ ¨ÉèºÉäVÉ ½þè* 1992 ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù ]õÚ]õÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +ÉVÉ iÉEò EòÉä<Ç ºÉnùxÉ BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ ÊEò ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú Êb÷¤Éä]õ ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ nùÉä½þ®úÉªÉÉ {É½þ±Éä VÉ¤É SÉÖxÉÉ´É ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ iÉÉä SÉÖxÉÉ´É Eòä {É½þ±Éä Eò½þÉ VÉÉiÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò +MÉ®ú ¦ÉÉVÉ{ÉÉ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÒ iÉÉä +É{ÉEòÉ ´ÉÉäÊ]õÆMÉ ®úÉ<]õ JÉi¨É Eò®ú nùäMÉÒ +Éè®ú +É{É ºÉ¤ÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä lÉä, ½þ¨ÉäÆ ªÉÉnù ½þè, +É{É +¦ÉÒ SÉäªÉ®ú {É®ú ½þèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ, * =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù (¨ÉvÉÖ¤ÉxÉÒ) : ªÉ½þ MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þè, <ºÉEòÉä +É{É |ÉÉäÊºÉÊb÷ÆMºÉ ºÉä ÊxÉEò±É´ÉÉ<ªÉä* +É{É ªÉ½þÉÆ SÉäªÉ®ú EòÉä EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þ ºÉEòiÉä* ªÉ½þÉÆ VÉÉä ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB ½þèÆ, +É{É =xÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, +É{É {É½þ±Éä +xÉÖ¦É´É EòÒÊVÉB ÊEò ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù ºÉä {É½þ±Éä +É{ÉxÉä ½þÒ EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ ½þè* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +ÉºÉxÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ BEºÉ{ÉÆVÉ EòÒ VÉÉªÉäÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉÆºÉnù Eòä °ü{É ¨ÉäÆ Ê¤É½þÉ®ú ºÉä ½þÒ +ÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* +É{ÉEòä ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±Éä, VÉ®úÉ ªÉ½þ ªÉÉnù EòÒÊVÉB* ¨ÉèÆ +¤É =ºÉEòÉ VªÉÉnùÉ ´ÉhÉÇxÉ Eò®úxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þÚÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ºÉ¤ÉVÉèE]õ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒ B]ÅÉÊºÉ]õÒWÉ EòÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ SÉÉèvÉ®úÒ : ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉºÉ <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ SÉÉ½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò +É{ÉxÉä VÉÉä-VÉÉä xÉÉ®úä, VÉÉä-VÉÉä º±ÉÉäMÉxÉ ÊnùªÉä lÉä, +É{ÉxÉä {ÉÉªÉÉ ÊEò ¦ÉÉVÉ{ÉÉ +Éè®ú ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ Ê¨É±ÉÒ-VÉÖ±ÉÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä +É`ö ¨É½þÒxÉä ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉä MÉªÉä, BEò ¦ÉÒ nùÆMÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É +Éè®ú +É{ÉEòä <ÊiÉ½þÉºÉ EòÉä +MÉ®ú 1948 ºÉä ±ÉäEò®ú nùäJÉÉ VÉÉªÉä iÉÉä nùÆMÉÉäÆ EòÉ ÊºÉ±ÉÊºÉ±ÉÉ +MÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉä ±ÉMÉÚÆMÉÉ iÉÉä ¶ÉÉªÉnù BEò ÊnùxÉ +Éè®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ nùäxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ* ... 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SUDHEERAN (ALLEPPEY): Sir, it is a fact that atrocities on minorities are increasing. According to the survey conducted by the United Christians Forum for Human Rights, the number of attacks on Christians this year alone outnumbered the total number of atrocities against the community between 1964 and 1997. It is shameful, shocking and alarming. I shall be very brief because of the constraint of time.

At the outset, the increasing atrocities on Christians in several States, the mysterious police raid on the residence of the distinguished Muslim theologian and the attempts of the Sangh Parivar to repeat Ayodhya in Chikmagalur, have all contributed a sense of insecurity among the minorities.

Sir, to contain such atrocities once and for all and to ensure the constitutional freedom and right, effective political and administrative steps have to be taken immediately. Now, the question is whether the Government has the political will to protect the minorities. For this, the Government and the ruling party have to change their attitudes convincingly. Perfect democratic and secular approaches are highly necessary.

I would suggest some points in this regard. Let the Government convene a meeting of all the political parties to discuss and formulate necessary steps to create an atmosphere in which the minorities feel secured. The next point is that the Government should come forward with a White Paper during the current Session itself on the crimes committed on the Christian missionaries, nuns and institutions, and other minorities, including Muslims. An urgent meeting of the Chief Ministers should be convened to review the action taken so far, and to chalk out effective measures to contain such atrocities. An official-level monitoring cell, headed by the Cabinet Secretary, be formed to monitor the follow-up steps of the decisions taken at the Chief Ministers' Conference. State-level minority protection cells, headed by the Chief Secretaries of the respective States, be set up. A special task force, headed by an IGP, be created under the guidance and supervision of this cell to exclusively deal with such atrocities.

Finally, I would request the hon. Home Minister that a permanent Joint Parliamentary Committee be set up to look after the welfare of the minorities, and to see that the constitutional freedom and right of the minorities are protected.

I would request the Government to act to protect the minorities or quit. Those who fail to protect minorities have no right to govern.

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN (CHANDIGARH): Now, the Members of all the parties have spoken.

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"One should strive for a society where everybody is happy and healthy." ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, +É{É Ê¤É½þÉ®ú ºÉä +ÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ nùä¶É "ºÉ´ÉÇä ¦É´ÉÆiÉÖ ºÉÖÊJÉxÉ:, ºÉ´ÉÇä ºÉÆiÉÖ ÊxÉ®úÉ¨ÉªÉÉ," ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ MÉÉÆvÉÒ, MÉÉäiÉ¨É, ¤ÉÖr +Éè®ú ¨É½þÉ´ÉÒ®ú EòÉ nùä¶É ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ PÉ]õxÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ PÉÊ]õiÉ ½þÉäxÉÉ ºÉSÉ¨ÉÖSÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨É ºÉ¤É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä Ê±ÉB +SUôÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, +¡òºÉÉäºÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ PÉ]õxÉÉBÆ xÉ PÉ]õäÆ +Éè®ú +±{ÉºÉÆJªÉEòÉäÆ {É®ú ÊEòºÉÒ |ÉEòÉ®ú Eòä +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú xÉ ½þÉäÆ* <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ½þÒ ¨ÉèÆ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ +Éä®ú Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ- "=VÉÉ±Éä +{ÉxÉÒ ªÉÉnùÉäÆ EòÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉlÉ ®ú½þxÉä nùÉä, xÉ VÉÉxÉä ÊVÉxnùMÉÒ EòÒ ÊEòºÉ MÉ±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ¶ÉÉ¨É ½þÉä VÉÉB*" ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ÊEòºÉ MÉ±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ¶ÉÉ¨É ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þè, EòÉèxÉ ºÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉiiÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þè, EòÉèxÉ ºÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉBMÉÒ, ªÉ½þ EòÉä<Ç xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ, ªÉ½þ <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä ¨ÉiÉnùÉiÉÉ Eòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* ¨Éä®úÉ +É{ÉEòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä Eòä´É±É BEò ½þÒ ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ ½þè, ½þ¨É ºÉ¤É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ªÉ½þÒ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè- "<Ç¶´É®ú +±±ÉÉ½þ iÉä®úä xÉÉ¨É, ºÉ¤É EòÉä ºÉx¨ÉÊiÉ nùä ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ*" +MÉ®ú ºÉ¤É EòÉä ºÉx¨ÉÊiÉ Ê¨É±É MÉ<Ç iÉÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉnù¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EòÉ ´ÉÉiÉÉ´É®úhÉ ®ú½þäMÉÉ +Éè®ú Ê¡ò®ú nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ PÉ]õxÉÉBÆ xÉ½þÒÆ PÉ]õäÆMÉÒ* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, +É{ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ÊnùªÉÉ, <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB +É{ÉEòÉä vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù* SHRI B.M. MENSINKAI (DHARWAR SOUTH): Mr Chairman Sir, we are three members in this House from Lok Shakti and therefore I request you to give me enough time to speak on this vital issue.

I thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak on this very important subject. There is steep increase in the number of atrocities committed on minorities.

Sir, there are too many communities which belong to minorities. In fact, the word minority has lost its meaning. In Karnataka for example Lingayats, Vokkaligar, Kurubar, Muslims and many other communities come under minorities. I therefore feel that the word minority and its protection has lost its meaning. I also think that we need not waste the precious time of this august House by discussing this elaborately.

In our country, during 12th century the great Saint Bhakti Bhandari Basavanna had preached and practiced only one Dharma which included all the communities of the society. He also practiced and encouraged the people about the concept of only one God.

MR CHAIRMAN: Did you give notice that you are speaking in Kannada.

SHRI B.M. MENSINKAI: Yes Sir, I have given the notice * Translation of the speech originally delivered in Kannada.

SHRI B.M. MENSINKAI (DHARWARD SOUTH): Mr. Chairman, Sir ... (Interruptions) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{ÉxÉä <ºÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùÒ lÉÒ* ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÒ.B¨É. ¨ÉäxÉÊºÉÆEòÉ<Ç : xÉ½þÒÆ* I have already submitted that in my prayer. ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ nùäxÉÒ {Éc÷iÉÒ ½þè* +¤É +É{É VÉ±nùÒ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÊ®úB* SHRI B.M. MENSINKAI : Since there is no translation, I will speak in English. It is the political parties who must learn the things first. There is unity among all the castes in the villages. But it is the political parties which are encouraging these things by dividing the people as `minority' or `majority'. In the Twelfth Century, Basaveswara taught that the objective of all religions is the same. That is why, I request the people to follow that principle.

There are two temples in Karnataka -- one is, Sirhatti Fakkireswara Temple; and the other is, Huluguru Temple -- where both Hindus and Muslims offer their prayers to the God.

Therefore, I appeal to the Government that it should not interfere in the personal lives of the villagers. The political parties should learn the things first so that communal harmony could be maintained.

It is a known fact that both Hindus and Muslims use the loudspeakers in the morning, around 4.30 a.m., to propagate their religion. This should be stopped immediately so that people in the cities and villages can sleep well without any disturbance. They can use the loudspeakers after 6 o'clock in the morning.

SHRI FRANCISCO SARDINHA (MARMAGOA): Mr. Chairman, Sir, one of the legacies that has been left behind for us by our elders is our Constitution, which is sacred. It enshrines the freedom of religion and freedom of thought and expression. If you see now, the minorities are feeling a sense of insecurity and it is a matter of great concern to the right thinking Indians as to what would happen to the age-old harmony of the people belonging to various cultures and religions in this country.

Sir, it has been observed from the reports available that violent incidents, especially against the minorities are on the increase. In fact, if you see, the number of instances this year are more than all the instances put together since Independence.

Sir, who could deny, including our hon. Home Minister, that wherever the Christian missionaries have gone, they have helped in spreading education, both quantitatively and qualitatively? The missionaries and nuns have gone to every nook and corner of this country for spreading education and improving the health care of the poor people.

Sir, what do we see? Many of the leaders want their children to study in those schools and colleges and after that they become fundamentalists and go against the very culture which these missionaries are spreading. Look at the States where violence is on the increase. The States are, Gujarat, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and Karnataka. The maximum instances are in the State of Gujarat. The minorities feel that with the advent of the BJP rule at the Centre, the figures are on the increase.

Sir, the Christians have not only the right to their faith but they have every right to profess and preach whatever they want, of course, within certain parameters of the Constitution. My hon. colleagues on the other side have been saying that the faith has been professed and preached forcibly. It is all false. My hon. colleagues have been speaking about partition; they have been talking about atrocities against Sikhs. What do they mean by all these? Do they want to justify the things that are happening now, in this very year? Let us all stand up and get together and condemn whatever is happening. Let us not forget that the Christians also belong to this country.

Sir, I belong to the State of Goa where we have got a lot of Christians, Hindus and Muslims. But there all are living together in harmony. This is for the country to know that we have got a Uniform Code. I would like to bring this to the notice of the hon. Home Minister that we have got a Uniform Code, both for religion and gender, in the State of Goa. There is no distinction.

Sir, finally I would like to submit that all these can happen only if the Government has the mind to implement it. Whatever we say and do here is not enough. This has to percolate to every State. Every State should know that we are living in a democratic country and not in a theocratic country. I would like to request the hon. Home Minister to send a message to every State and show that we really mean that these things would have to be stopped. All these communities, all these people who are following different faiths belong to the same motherland, to the same country -- Bharat. Unless every human being living in this country is free to practice any faith and religion, whatever he wants, nobody would be happy in this country. So, I would once again like to request the hon. Home Minister to issue a White Paper on this. The hon. Home Minister has said that half the people, those who had raped the nuns, were Christians ... (Interruptions) We do not know.

We go by the newspaper reports. That is the reason we expect the hon. Home Minister to present a White Paper on this subject.

2016 hrs The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday, December 16, 1998/Agrahayana 25, 1920 (Saka).

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Further Discussion Regarding Atrocities Committed On Minorities In Various ... on 15 December, 1998