Lok Sabha Debates
Regarding Pope John Paul-Ii Visit To India. on 27 October, 1999
Title: Regarding Pope John Paul-II visit to India.
11.59 hrs. SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DAS MUNSI(RAIGANJ): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have given notices for discussion under Rule 193 and also Calling Attention on Pope John Paul""s visit to India because his security is causing a lot of concern in the country. We want a full-fledged discussion either under Rule 193 or under the Calling Attention. A notice has been served. It concerns not only the Christian community but the entire image of the nation in the whole world. On the one hand the Minister of Home Affairs said in Gujarat that he would be a State guest and he would be protected and on the other hand, right under the nose of the North Block, at Vijay Chowk, the area which falls under Section 144, the VHP and the RSS elements burnt the effigy of Pope John Paul. This is a serious matter and the country cannot afford to ignore this incident because the hon Prime Minister made a commitment and the Presidential Address also had made a commitment for the total democratic polity and secularism. I feel and I demand that an important issue like this cannot be ignored by this House. There should be a discussion and the Government should come forward because earlier ....(Interruptions)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): There should be an assurance from the Minister of Home Affairs. (Interruptions)
12.00 hrs. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please let him finish.
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSI : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, earlier in 1992, when a similar question was raised whether Babri Masjid will be protected or not, a Chief minister gave a commitment to the Supreme Court, with affidavit, that there shall be total protection. Yet it was not done. We demand from the Government that their commitment must be total and the Christian community as a whole in this country should feel protected. The Home Minister must react immediately...(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please resume your seat, Shri Acharia? I am on my legs. Shri Radhakrishnan, Please resume your seat. I am on my legs. Shri Priya Ranjan Dasmunsi has mentioned a subject on which the Government wants to react. If all of you stand up together, how can I call all of you at a time? Now I am calling Shri Suresh Kurup.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am giving you the chance before the hon. Home Minister reacts. Do you want to say anything, Shri Suresh Kurup?
SHRI SURESH KURUP (KOTTAYAM): Sir, I have given a notice. Pope John Paul II...(Interruptions)
SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU (SRIKAKULAM): Sir, either you should allow the Home Minister to react or...(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Yerrannaidu, I am calling those who have given notice.
SHRI SURESH KURUP : Sir, Pope John Paul II is the head of a sovereign State and also the spiritual head of millions of Christians all over the world. The Vishva Hindu Parishad has taken out a vicious campaign against this visit of the Holy Father. This is a logical extension of their vicious campaign against the Christian minorities in this country. The Government is keeping mum on this. They should come forward with a clear-cut statement as to what is their attitude regarding the visit. This is a great and historic occasion and should be treated like that...(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Suresh, the Government wants to react. Please be brief.
SHRI SURESH KURUP : Let me complete my statement, Sir. Now they are taking out a yatra from Goa to Delhi and they are threatening that they will take out protest rallies against the Papal visit. What is the attitude of the Government, we would like to know.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He will tell. Now, Shri Basudeb Acharia.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please take your seat, Mr. Ramdas? I have called Shri Basudeb Acharia.
SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA (BANKURA): Sir, the campaign unleashed by Vishva Hindu Parishad and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh in regard to the visit of Pope John Paul II...(Interruptions) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : शान्त रहिये, आपको चांस मिलेगा।SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA : Sir, the Vishva Hindu Parishad have already started a yatra from Goa to Delhi...(Interruptions). This has created communal disharmony in the country and this will also create adverse relations with another country. The Government has not yet reacted.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Hon. Members, all mobile phones should be put off.
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Not only put off, they should not be brought here.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: They are all bringing here.
SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: Sir, the Government has not yet reacted to the action which is being taken by Vishva Hindu Parishad and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. The Government has not distanced itself from the action of these two mass organisations of the Bharatiya Janata Party. I demand that this House should condemn and the Government should also come out with a statement ...(Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSI : These are not two mass organisations, these are two fascist organisations.
SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA : Yes, fascist organisations. I stand corrected.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please, Shri Acharia.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Shri Acharia, please complete. You are taking too much time. श्री विनय कटियार (फैजाबाद): उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, ये कैसे कह सकते हैं कि फासिस्ट संगठन है, हमें इनकी बात पर आपत्ित है। उपाध्यक्ष महोदय: आपत्ित है तो जब आपको मौका मिलेगा, तब कहें।SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, the Government should make a statement in this House. ...(Interruptions) Pope John Paul II is not only a religious leader but he is also the Head of a State. What is the plan and programme of the Government maintaining communal harmony in the country? ...(Interruptions) We have the experience. We have seen what happened at the time of demolition of the Babri Masjid. In spite of the undertaking given by the State Government of Uttar Pradesh, the Babri Masjid was demolished on 6th of December, 1992. ...(Interruptions) श्री विनय कटियार (फैजाबाद): उपाध्यक्ष जी, मुझे भी बोलने का मौका दिया जाए। उपाध्यक्ष महोदय: आपको भी मौका मिलेगा।Please conclude. Shri K. Francis George to speak now.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Shri Acharia, this is not a full scale discussion. This is zero hour. You have to mention the subject. The Government wants to react. This is not a full scale debate.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, that was organised by the Chief Minister in 1992. By that started the communal disharmony in our country....(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : You are not helping me. I am trying to help you.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, I demand that the Government should make a statement in regard to this. ...(Interruptions)
SHRI TARIT BARAN TOPDAR (BARRACKPORE): That case is still pending. The Minister of Home Affairs is an accused in that case. Do not forget that the case is still pending. ...(Interruptions) श्री रामचन्द्र बैंदा (फरीदाबाद): उस मामले को इसमें कैसे उठा रहे हैं। उपाध्यक्ष महोदय: आप बैठिए, मैं कंट्रोल करूंगा।SHRI VARKALA RADHAKRISHNAN (CHIRAYINKIL) : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, ..
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Shri Radhakrishnan, you are not Francis George. I called Shri George to speak. He is a new Member. Please listen to him.
SHRI K. FRANCIS GEORGE (IDUKKI) : Sir, we are extremely pained and sorry to say that the visit of the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II is being marred by this kind of vicious campaign by the Sangh Pariwar. We have now met the hon. Prime Minister regarding this. The hon. Prime Minister has said that the Government respects all religions. The Pope is coming here as a Head of State on our own invitation. Subsequently the hon. Minister of Home Affairs also made a statement to that effect. But what are we seeing now? The Sangh Pariwar is going ahead with its campaign of hate and distrust. What has the Government done upto now? The Government has not taken any decision or step so far. ...(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Home Affairs wants to react.
SHRI K. FRANCIS GEORGE : Sir, please let me complete. We would like to know as to what the Government proposes to do regarding the Yatra which is being taken out by the Sangh Pariwar from Goa to Delhi. ...(Interruptions) Sir, you are not allowing me. ...(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : He has given notice.
SHRI K. FRANCIS GEORGE : Sir, I have also given notice. All of us would like to know as to what the Government proposes to do. Will the Government take action against the Sangh Pariwar elements? Is the Government ready to stop the Yatra which is being proposed by the Sangh Pariwar? We want to have a clear answer from the Government. Thank you very much. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Shri P.C. Thomas, please resume your seat. I have called Shri V. M. Sudheeran.
SHRI V.M. SUDHEERAN (ALLEPPEY) : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I have two points to make. One is that the visit of such a holy personage, Pope John Paul II, is a historic event and it is in the fitness of things that Parliament extend its welcome to the visiting Pope. I request the hon. Speaker to take appropriate steps and to see that the whole House welcomes the Holy Father.
The second point is that some communal elements are trying to create some undesirable situation in this country. That has to be condemned. Sir, through you I request the hon. Prime Minister and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to take appropriate steps to stop the attempt of the V.H.P., the R.S.S. and others to spoil the atmosphere. ...(Interruptions)
श्री बेनी प्रसाद वर्मा (कैसरगंज): उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, ... (व्यवधान)
सत्ता पक्ष के लोग भी बोलने के लिए आतुर हैं, जो सब कुछ कर रहे हैं।
... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : इसी तरह से आपत्ित उठायेंगे, तो आपको चांस नहीं मिलेगा और उनको भी चांस नहीं मिलेगा। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप बैठिए, शांत रहिए। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : यह ऐसा मुद्दा है, जिन लोगों ने नोटिस दिया है, उन्हीं लोगों को बुला रहा हूं। ... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Rawat, you are a senior Member. You should know the procedure.
... (Interruptions)
PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT (AJMER): Sir, kindly allow me. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is not the way to attract the attention of the Presiding Officer.
... (Interruptions)
PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT : Only one side is coming before you.
... (Interruptions) श्री विनय कटियार (फैजाबाद): उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, आपने उन लोगों को भी बुलाया है, जिन लोगों ने नोटिस नहीं दिया है। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : इस तरह से होगा, तो आपको भी चांस नहीं दूंगा। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप शांत रहिए। ... (व्यवधान) श्री बेनी प्रसाद वर्मा : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, मैं बहुत विनम्र शब्दों में आग्रह करना चाहता हूं। २१वां सदी में हम प्रवेश करने जा रहे हैं, ऐसा न हो कि आने वाली हमारी संतानें पंथ निरपेक्षता की प्रतिबद्धता संविधान में ही पढ़तीं रहें, लेकिन अमल में उनको विध्वंस दिखाई दे। हम विगत में देख चुके हैं। इसी प्रकार राम-जानकी रथ यात्रा निकाली गई थी और देश में वातावरण खराब किया गया था। हिन्दू उग्रवाद को बढ़ाया गया था और बाबरी मस्िजद विध्वंस इसी क़म में हुआ था।... (व्यवधान)
सुन नहीं सकते हैं। इनमें धैर्य नहीं है।
... (व्यवधान) श्री प्रकाश विश्वनाथ परांजपे (ठाणे) : इन्होंने रथ यात्रा पर कलंक लगाया है। हम सुनने वाले नहीं है। यह हिन्दुस्तान है, पाकिस्तान नहीं है। इनको विदड़ा करना चाहिए।... (व्यवधान) श्री अनंत गंगाराम गीते (रत्नागरि): इन्होंने राम रथ यात्रा पर आक्षेप किया है।... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please resume your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Paranjpe, you are not to stand up and say anything and everything. If there is anything unparliamentary, I will ask him to withdraw. Do not do like this.
... (Interruptions) श्री बेनी प्रसाद वर्मा : इसी प्रकार का वातावरण १९८६ में बना था। मुलायम सिंह जी नेता प्रतिपक्ष थे और मैं उपनेता, उत्तर प्रदेश विधान सभा में। हम लोगों ने आहवान किया था... (व्यवधान) श्री विनय कटियार : इसी तरह उन्होंने वहां का वातावरण खराब किया था। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप यहां का वातावरण खराब कर रहे हैं।... (व्यवधान) श्री बेनी प्रसाद वर्मा : हम लोगों को बोलने नहीं देगे, तो इनके नेता कैसे बोलेंगे।... (व्यवधान) श्री विनय कटियार : उस समय ये दोनो साझीदार थे। इनकी मिली-भगत थी। उन्होंने गोली चलवाई, उन्होंने ढांचा गिरवाया और आरोप हम पर लगा रहे हैं।... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Katiyar, please resume your seat.
... (Interruptions) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : श्री चौबे, आप सीनियर मैम्बर हैं। अगर कोई चीज अनपार्िलयामेंट्री होगी, तो उनको विदड़ा करने के लिए बोलूंगा। आप कयों कहते हैं।... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Katiyar, this is too much. Please resume your seat. I want your Whip to prevail on you. What is this? How to conduct this House? श्री विनय कटियार : उपाध्यक्ष जी, ये जो चाहेंगे बोलते जाएंगे। गोलियां ये चलवाएं, ढांचा ये गिरवाएं, आरोप हम पर लगाएं, यह कैसे चलेगा।... (व्यवधान) कया यह बाबरी मस्िजद और अयोध्या पर बहस हो रही है। कया ये जो चाहेंगे वह बोलेंगे। उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : अगर कोई बात असंसदीय होगी तो उसे निकलवा देंगे। मैं यहां किसलिए बैठा हूं।Shri Ramdas, please resume your seat. आपको भी चांस मिलेगा। मिस्टर कटियार आप भी बैठ जाइये। ऐसे कैसे चलेगा। श्री विनय कटियार : उपाध्यक्ष जी, हम बैठ जाते हैं, हमें भी बोलने का मौका दीजिएगा। श्री बेनी प्रसाद वर्मा : उपाध्यक्ष जी, हमें आश्चर्य है कि अनुशासित दल का दावा करने वाले लोग सुनने का धैर्य भी नहीं रखते।... (व्यवधान)
यह सदन की गरिमा के खिलाफ है कि जब हम आपकी इजाजत से बोल रहे हैं तो ये बीच में व्यवधान पैदा कर रहे हैं। श्रीमान्, इसी तरह का वातावरण १९८६ में पैदा हो रहा था। श्री मुलायम सिंह यादव उस समय नेता विरोधी दल थे और मैं उप-नेता था। मजबूर होकर श्री मुलायम सिंह यादव को लोक दल के कार्यकर्ताओं से कहना पड़ा था कि खून देकर भी ऐसे राम-जानकी रथ को रोक दो, जो देश में साम्प्रदायिकता के जहर को फैला रहा है।
... (व्यवधान) श्री विजय कुमार मलहोत्रा (दक्षिण दिल्ली): उपाध्यक्ष जी, ये किस पर बोल रहे हैं। पोप की यात्रा का सवाल है, उस पर बोलें लेकिन ये तो राम रथ-यात्रा पर बोल रहे हैं।... (व्यवधान)
आज का विषय कया राम रथ-यात्रा है।
Why should he divert the issue? श्री लाल मुनी चौबे (बकसर) : ये बीती हुई बात पर बोल रहे हैं।... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : चौबे जी, आप इतने सीनियर मैम्बर हैं। आप बैठ जाइये।SHRI VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA : How can he talk about this? श्री अनंत गंगाराम गीते (रत्नागरि): उपाध्यक्ष जी, ये हमारे हिंदू देवता का नाम कया सम्मान से ले रहे हैं, कया ये भगवान राम का नाम सम्मान से ले रहे हैं ... (व्यवधान) ये कैसे बोल रहे हैं। कया उनका नाम सम्मान से लिया जा रहा है।MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is a sensitive issue. I request the hon. Members that they should be very careful in choosing their words. These are emotional matters. Therefore, kindly see that you confine yourself to the subject without bringing any extraneous matters into it.
SHRI BENI PRASAD VERMA : I am very alert. जैसा मैंने पहले कहा था कि हम लोग २१वीं सदी में जा रहे हैं और आज पंथ-निरपेक्षता हमारे संविधान में केवल शब्द ही न रह जाये बल्िक उस पर अमल भी हो। इस पर सत्ता पक्ष और विपक्ष सबको जागरुक रहना चाहिए। अगर कुछ लोग यह समझते हैं कि अल्पसंख्यक हिंदुओं से कम है, इसलिए अल्पसंख्यक कहलाते हैं तो मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि पूरी दुनिया में मुसलमानों की आबादी सबसे ज्यादा भारत में होने जा रही है। इंडोनेशिया भी पीछे रह जाएगा। अल्पसंख्यक चाहे जो भी हो, पारसी हो, मुसलमान हो, बुद्धिस्ट हो और चाहे हिंदू ही कयों न हो, उन सबके लिए हमने डा. लोहिया जी से सबक लिया है कि जहां हिंदू कम हैं और मुसलमान ज्यादा हैं वहां मुसलमानों को अपनी जान देकर भी उनकी रक्षा करना चाहिए। इसी तरह से जहां मुसलमान कम हैं और हिंदू ज्यादा हैं वहां हिंदुओं को अपनी जान देकर भी मुसलमानों की रक्षा करनी चाहिए।... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Verma, please conclude. श्री बेनी प्रसाद वर्मा : ईसाई हमारे देश में बहुत कम हैं और ऐसे हालात में यहां पर बड़ी दर्दनाक घटनाएं हुई हैं। पोप जॉन-पाल देश में आ रहे हैं और यह दुख की बात है कि सत्ता पक्ष से जुड़े हुए कुछ संगठन आर.एस.एस. और विश्व हिंदू परिषद उनके खिलाफ देश में वातावरण बना रहे हैं। हमें इस बात का आभास हो रहा है कि जिस तरह का वातावरण इस देश में १९८६ से १९९२ तक बनाया गया था, आज उसी तरह का वातावरण बनाने की कोशिश की जा रही है। हम चाहते हैं कि इस की इजाजत नहीं दी जानी चाहिये। यदि इस तरह की इजाजत दी गई तो हम उन लोगों में से हैं जो जान देकर भी उन यात्राओं का विरोध करेंगे। इस देश में हम ऐसा नहीं चलने देंगे जो पंथ निरपेक्ष संवैधानिक प्रावधान पर प्रश्नचिन्ह लगाये। इसलिये आपसे अनुरोध है कि आप अपनी पीठ से सरकार को निर्देश दें कि जो इस प्रकार का वातावरण बनाया जा रहा है, पोप के खिलाफ जो यात्रायें निकाली जा रही हैं, तत्काल उस पर प्रतिबंध लगाये। हम चाहते हैं कि सरकार कड़ी कार्यवाही करे और इस सदन को आश्वासन दे। श्री विनय कटियार : माननीय उपाध्यक्ष जी, जो संस्थायें इस सदन में नहीं हैं, उनका भी नाम लेकर घसीटा जा रहा है। यहां १९९२ की चर्चा की गई। मैं अयोध्या पर नहीं जाना चाहता लेकिन माननीय सदस्य ने जो बयान यहां दिया और कई अन्य सदस्यों ने बोला, मैं इतना बताना चाहता हूं कि उस समय उत्तर प्रदेश में सरकार कांग्रेस के समर्थन से चल रही थी और जब गोली चली उस समय श्री मुलायम सिंह मुख्यमंत्री थे जिन्हें कांग्रेस का समर्थन प्राप्त था। जब ढांचा गिरा था, उस समय यहां पर श्री नरसिंह राव बैठे हुये थे। कया कांग्रेस अपनी जिम्मेदारी से मुकर सकती है? माननीय मुख्यमंत्री जी ने इस्तीफा दे दिया लेकिन उसके छ: घंटे बाद भी ढांचा गिरता रहा। कया कांग्रेस अपनी जिम्मेदारी से मुकर सकती है?... (व्यवधान)
.. कांग्रेस अपनी जिम्मेदारी से नहीं मुकर सकती। माननीय उपाध्यक्ष जी, पोप साहब यहां आ रहे हैं। हम उनका विरोध नहीं कर रहे हैं। वे राष्ट्राध्यक्ष के नाते यहां आये, उनका स्वागत है। यह देश की परम्परा रही है कि विदेशी अतथि का स्वागत किया जाता है। कहीं पर वी.एच.पी. या आर.एस.एस. के विरोध की बात नहीं कही गई है। लेकिन कुछ बातें हैं जिनकी उन्हें सफाई देनी चाहिये। पिछले दिनों... उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : भारत सरकार से कया चाहते है? श्री विनय कटियार : मैं अपनी बात कर रहा हूं, भारत सरकार की बात नहीं कह रहा हूं। मैं एक एम.पी. होने के नाते अपनी बात कह रहा हूं। उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : ग्ृाह मंत्रालय इस पर कया व्यवस्था करे, यह कहिये। श्री विनय कटियार : मैं निवेदन करना चाहता हूं कि पोप साहब को कुछ न कुछ सफाई देनी चाहिये। पिछले दिनों जब पोप साहब भारत आये थे, उस समय श्री राजीव गांधी प्रधानमंत्री थे। उनके आवास पर शिक्षा-दीक्षा का काम किया गया था जिसके चलते पूर्वांचल में १५ सालों में १२ हजार लोगों को मौत के घाट उतार दिया गया। माननीय उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, आप ग्ृाह राज्य मंत्री रहे हैं। इस हालत में इस देश के लोग पोप साहब से सफाई चाहते हैं।SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Sir, we are totally opposed to the view that the Pope should clarify this.
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : We congratulate Shri Vaiko. ...(Interruptions) It is shocking ...(Interruptions) श्री विनय कटियार : आतंकवादियों को पैसा दिया जाता है, कया वे इसकी सफाई देंगे?SHRI VAIKO : Sir, I would like to place on record my point of view on this issue. श्री विनय कटियार : माननीय उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, हमारा उनसे कोई विरोध नहीं, उनकी नीतियों से विरोध है। हमारे देश के अंदर सहिष्णुता और उदारता है। हम किसी धर्म का विरोध नहीं करते हैं।MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Yerrannaidu.
... (Interruptions) श्री विनय कटियार : मै एक मिनट में अपनी बात समाप्त करता हूं। माननीय उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, मैं आपसे प्रार्थना करना चाहता हूं कि इस सदन में कुछ लोग जानबूझकर देश के लोगों की भावनाओं को उत्तेजित करना चाहते हैं... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except Shri Yerrannaidu.
(Interruptions)* SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU (SRIKAKULAM): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, it is a sensitive and emotional issue. Hon. Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh Shri Chandrababu Naidu wrote a letter to Shri Vajpayee to maintain communal harmony in this country. It is the duty of the House to maintain communal harmony. We are entering into a new millennium.
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So, the Government should take all precautionary steps not to disturb the communal harmony in this country. Our Constitution respects and loves all the religions in this country.
I once again request that the Government should tell us as to what steps it is taking for the peaceful visit of John Pope Paul in this country and for maintaining communal harmony in the country.
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : Should the Government repudiate what has been said by Shri Vinay Katiyar from the back benches? Can Shri Advani set aside the fact of having a man like Katiyar? ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ramesh Chennithala, please take your seat. We have to hear the hon. Home Minister now.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA (MAVELIKARA): Sir, I will take only one minute... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, let us hear the hon. Minister.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA : Sir, I will take only one minute. I have also given a notice under Rule 193... (Interruptions)... Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, this is a historic occasion, and it is very unfortunate to note... (Interruptions)
SHRI VAIKO : Sir, they have made their points. We want to hear the hon. Home Minister now... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already called the hon. Home Minister.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA : Sir, I will take only one minute. Please allow me to make my point.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All right. But within one minute you have to conclude.
SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA : Yes, Sir.
Sir, the visit of Pope John Paul-II is a historic occasion. But it is very unfortunate to note what the hon. Member Shri Vinay Katiyar has stated. I think, if this is the attitude of the BJP and the Government, it is very unfortunate... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: What do you want from the Government?
SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA : Sir, the Government should come forward with a statement. Earlier also, John Paul-II had visited this country. He is the religious leader of the Christian community of the world. He is a saint head of a State. India had given a warm welcome to John Paul-II. But it is unfortunate to note that the BJP and the Sangh Parivar have created a vicious atmosphere in the country.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chennithala, what do you want the Government to do?
SHRI RAMESH CHENNITHALA : Sir, I request the hon. Minister to give a statement so that we have a peaceful visit of John Paul in this country... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ramdas Athawale, please take your seat. Now, let the hon. Home Minister reply. Please understand, we have a number of items to go through. So many Bills are to be taken up. Kindly cooperate. Tomorrow also, you will get the opportunity THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI) : Sir, it has been very rightly pointed out by several Members of the House that His Holiness Paul John is not only the revered Head... (Interruptions)
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : If the Home Minister cannot take his name properly... (Interruptions)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I stand corrected, Shri Manishankar Aiyar -- His Holiness John Paul-II. He is not only the revered head of a great religious community but he is also Head of the State, Vatican which is duly recognised by the Government of India. And, it is on the invitation of the Government that he is coming to India next month. Therefore, any references particularly in the House that are not respectful, I will plead with you, those should be removed from the proceedings... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI: No... (Interruptions)...
SHRI L.K. ADVANI Please let me complete... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : They have burnt the effigy of Pope John Paul-II... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please hear him.
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : They have burnt the effigy of Pope John Paul... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He is on his legs. Let him finish first.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Sir, I do not propose... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please resume your seats.
SHRI N.N. KRISHNADAS (PALGHAT): The Home Minister should condemn the burning of his effigy.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Krishnadas, do not interrupt now. Let him complete.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) * SHRI L. K. ADVANI: In the course of today""s discussion, several observations were made this side and that side which had nothing to do with the issue we are discussing and, therefore, I do not propose to comment on them at all. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYARANJAN DASMUNSHI : I seek your protection. In front of the Home Minister""s Office, the effigy of Pope Paul was burnt by the VHP activists. It came in The Hindustan Times. Will the Home Minister take congnizance of it, condemn it and arrest them? You say "I am not going to comment on that". You say you do not take cognizance of the observation.
SHRI L. K. ADVANI: I have not yet completed.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, during the `Zero Hour"", when a matter is referred, the Government reacts after discussion.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : If it is a comment on the observations made by Shri Vinay Katiyar, does he or does he not repudiate? If he does repudiate, why ----------------------------------------------------------------
* Not Recorded.
(Interruptions) श्री विनय कटियार: उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, जैसा श्री मणि शंकर अय्यर जी कह रहे हैं वैसा मैंने कुछ नहीं कहा है।... (व्यवधान) श्री कांतिलाल भूरिया (झाबुआ) : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, कटियार जी की तो ऐसी मन:स्िथति बनी हुई है।... (व्यवधान)
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : We cannot forget that Shri L. K. Advani and Shri Vinay Katiyar conspired to destroy Babri Masjid. I do not know if there is a link between Shri L. K. Advani and Shri Vinay Katiyar. That is why, I want the Home Minister to repudiate what Shri Vinay Katiyar has said. I seek the expulsion of Shri Vinay Katiyar from this House if he has expressed the kind of sentiments.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except the Home Minister""s statement.
(Interruptions) * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Mahameghabhan Aira Kharabela Swain, I am on my legs. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I am on my legs.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You are a senior Member. You should at least know that during the `Zero Hour"" when there is any matter referred here, the Government reacts. It is not a detailed discussion or reply. Hon. Members should not get up every now and then and ask for detailed explanation on the reply.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please hear me first and then if you have any clarification, you can ask.
SHRI L. K. ADVANI: Pope John Paul II is the revered guest of this country and the Government of India condemns any burning of the effigy. It disapproves of any protest action against the arrival of Pope John Paul. ...(Interruptions)
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Sir, I am very categorical. I have stated it earlier also. ... SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : The effigy was burnt in front of the Office of the Home Minister. Why did you not take cognizance of it? Why did you fail to arrest them? ... (Interruptions)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: If there is any burning of any effigy, I do not know about it. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the Home Minister says that he does not know about it. He says, he does not know that effigies have been burnt. I wonder how he does not know it! ... (Interruptions)
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : They did not know that the Pakistanis were in Kargil and that the VHP was in his Office. What a completely incompetent Government! ... (Interruptions)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I am very categorical. ... (Interruptions) The Government""s stand is categorical. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Did you hear him? He has very categorically stated the Government""s stand.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He has made a categorical statement. Why are you interrupting?
... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : We are not interrupting. I am only making a submission.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Why are you interrupting? You are not in a position to listen to what the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has said.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : He does not know that it has happened. If that is the position of the Home Minister, we are helpless. The effigy was burnt in the lawns of his Office. It has appeared in the Hindustan Times. He does not take cognizance of it. This is the Home Minister""s reply. ... (Interruptions) श्री मुलायम सिंह यादव (सम्भल) : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, मेरा व्यवस्था का सवाल है। ... (व्यवधान)MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, there is a point of order from Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav. श्री अनंत गंगाराम गीते (रत्नागरि): ज़ीरो आवर में प्वाइंट ऑफ आर्डर कैसे अलाऊ कर रहे हैं।... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, you are on a point of order under what rule?
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You have to quote the rule.
During Zero Hour, there is no point of order.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no point of order in Zero Hour.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI MANISHANKAR AIYAR : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I want to make only two points. First, I want the Home Minister to repudiate what has been said by Shri Vinay Katiyar. ... (Interruptions) The second point that I want to make is, is it not true that Shri Advani and Shri Katiyar had conspired to destroy the Babri Masjid? ... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRAKASH VISHWANATH PARANJPE (THANE): Is he Manishankar Aiyar or Manishankar Augustine? ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, let us take up matters under rule 377.
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