Lok Sabha Debates
Further Discussion On The Interest On Delayed Payments To Small Scale And ... on 29 July, 1998
Title: Further discussion on the Interest on Delayed Payments to Small Scale and Ancillary Industries Undertakings (Amendment) Bill, 1998 moved by Shri Sikander Bakht on 28th July, 1998. Motion for Consideration - adopted 15.30 hrs. SHRI M. MALLIKARJUNIAH (TUMKUR): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to support the Bill which is before us, that is The Interest on Delayed Payments to Small Scale and Ancillary Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Bill, 1998. This is one of the fine piece of legislation where the hon. Minister has given his thought towards the ancillary units and the small scale industries. Now, the question is whether supplying materials to the mother industries is at the hands of the small scale industries. No. It is not so. The small scale industries are functioning independently. But ancillary units are at the mercy of the mother industries. Whatever the materials the mother industries demand, the ancillary units will have to supply them. They cannot force the payment from the mother industries. For example, in Tumkur there is a HMT factory. It is a mother industry. Nearly thirty-five to forty ancillary units are working under it. They have put some conditions and the ancillary units will have to fulfil them. This mother industry is incurring loss because of the inefficient administration, lack of farsightedness, and for not having surveyed the market, with the result, it is incurring loss.
There is one super mother industry to this Tumkur unit which is owing an amount of Rs. 36 lakh to this Tumkur unit. This amount of Rs. 36 lakh is increasing at a rate of eighteen per cent, which is Rs. 6.50 lakh, per month. For the fault of the super mother industry situated at Bangalore, the Tumkur unit is suffering. Nearly, thirty to thirty-five industries have virtually closed down. I personally approached the hon. Minister of Heavy Industries. They have entered into a price package.
The mother industry at Bangalore is not allowing this unit to function independently. In fact, all the units like the Srinagar and Nainital units are combined together. Though the Tumkur unit is earning profits, this unit is made to suffer because of the inefficiency in Nainital and the economic loss incurred in Srinagar. So, what I wish to say is that if the hon. Minister is really very honest and sincere in helping these ancillary units and small scale industries, he must allow these industries to function independently.
So far as the small scale industries are concerned, they are under the mercy of other industries. Though law is very clear and specific that delayed payments shall have to carry penalty, it is not so and it cannot be like that. If the small scale industries do not place an order for the materials, then what can they do? They are absolutely helpless. So, I think this piece of legislation requires further application of mind and the people who are working in these fields, both in the mother industry as well as small scale industries, should sit together and chalk out proper ways and means so that the small scale industries can survive. If the small scale industries shall have to survive, then the mother industry can also try its best to help them. So far as the ancillary units are concerned, I approached the hon. Minister to give blood and oxygen to these auxiliary units. There is a tussle going on between the ancillary units and the mother unit at Tumkur. I am telling this on the basis of my own experience. We are representing their cases from both the sides. They have entered into a price package but the mother industry is getting back because it is incurring losses and as far as ancillary units are concerned, they say that there was an agreement entered into. Three or four officers had constituted a Committee and have come to a conclusion. As a result, they are saying that they are entitled for it because the cost of production is high. But, unfortunately, the mother industry is handled by big bosses and the ancillary units are helpless and are in a very bad economic position. Therefore, I would request the hon. Minister for Heavy Industries to apply his mind and do justice for both. Merely bringing legislations and heaping them up may not serve the purpose. Somebody was telling that about a thousand and odd legislations, as on today, have proved useless and worthless. Therefore, it is of no use having a legislation which is not beneficial to the public, not beneficial to the mother industry and auxiliary units.
I thank the Chairman for giving me this opportunity to speak.
">SHRI PRAMOTHES MUKHERJEE (BERHAMPORE) (WB): Sir, I thank you for the opportunity given to me. It is a good gesture on the part of the Government to bring this Bill for legislation. I am very sorry that I cannot appreciate or accept the statement of the hon. Minister on the public sector undertakings. But, I am happy to appreciate that the primary purpose of the Bill is to give adequate relief to the small scale industries. The Object and Reasons of the Bill is to prevent the delay in payment and to make sure of payment to the small scale industries in time and thereby, to make this Act more effective than before.
Sir, the role played by the small scale industries is highly important for the growth and development of the country's economic structure. I have got with me the statistics taken from the National Herald. I would like to quote from it. It says that the small scale industries account for 95 per cent to the total industrial units, 40 per cent of the industrial production, 80 per cent of industrial employment, and 40 per cent of the country's export. Here is the significance and relevance of the small scale industries in the life of the national economic structure.
Sir, I would remind the House of the fact that Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru had realised the importance and significance of the small scale industries in the life of our national economy. That is why, he had introduced this system in the Second Five Year Plan, that is, 1956-61.
The relevance has been proved. At the same time, we see that the small scale industry, which plays the most vital and important role, has become sick and feeble. This is only due the mishandling of the situation by the Government. I do not want to mention which Government has committed such a mistake. But it is due to the mishandling of the situation by the Government and the Government is a continuous process. So, nobody can deny the responsibility for it. But the main thing is that the impetus or importance given to the small scale industry by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru during the Second Five-Year Plan has been totally ignored in the successive years. The net result is that the small scale industries are sick today. I have an account of that. I will place it before you for your consideration.
But we are living in a society which is determined by the market economy. In an ocean, we see that the small fishes are eaten by the big fishes Similarly, in a market economy, the small industrial houses are exploited by the big monopoly houses. Such thing is happening in the case of small scale industries. Nobody can deny it. This is the vice and curse of the market economy system.
You will be surprised to learn about the gravity of the arrears taken by the small scale industries. The sickness in the small scale industries sector has been so common that even many small units with good track record are viewed with suspicion by the lending institutions and banks because about 2,75,000 small and sick units are already blocking the precious funds of over Rs. 3,550 crore borrowed from the lending institutions. This is the situation. Such huge and precious money of the people has been blocked by these institutions for mismanagement of industries. So, proper attention and importance has to be given for revitalisation of the small scale industries.
Another thing is that there is absolute lack of infrastructure. Lack of technical knowhow is one of the reasons for sickness of the small scale industries in our country. Again, non-payment or the delayed payment is the most important factor which has contributed to the sickness of the small scale industries. That is why the purpose of this Bill has been appreciated and accepted by us.
There is a policy directive for composition of Industrial Facilitation Council for arbitration and counselling. That is a good idea. But the entire management of the Industrial Facilitation Council has been handed over to the bureaucracy. It is my humble suggestion to the hon. Minister that bureaucracy is a good and well-knit organisation, but it alone should not be handed over the entire responsibility of this Industrial Facilitation Council. So, I propose for consideration of the hon. Minister and the Government, that it should be decided by the State Government. I propose that the Ministers of Finance of all the State Governments or a representative each of all the State Governments should be the permanent invitees for the Industrial Facilitation Council for arbitration and counselling. This is my humble suggestion for consideration of the hon. Minister.
Sir, only the small scale industries depend solely on agriculture. They are playing the most important role in our agro-economic structure. I have an account of this with me here and I would like to quote from that.
"The Small Industries Development Bank of India (SIDBI), the National Bank for Agriculture and Rural Development (NABARD) and the Industrial Restructuring Bank of India (IRBI) provide the refinancing facilities to banks and financial corporations for financing the small industries sector".
Sir, I would like to urge upon the hon. Minister to take stock of the present situation. All these institutions, the SIDBI, the NABARD and the IRBI, have given sanction for advancing loans to the small sector industries sector. But, what has been the fate? All these small scale industries - particularly one such industry, namely, IFAKS in my district in Murshidabad in West Bengal, about which I would write to the hon. Minister as well - have taken advance and loan from the cooperative federation, that is from the NABARD. They have embarked on a venture. They have supplied all the relevant papers to the respective higher authorities but their payment has not yet been cleared. That is why, they are suffering now.
So, I would like to urge upon the hon. Minister to look into all these aspects. With my full support to this amendment Bill, I conclude my speech.
*m03 SHRI K.PALANISWAMI(TIRUCHENGODE)*: Hon'ble Chairman Sir, I would like to bestow my heartfelt thanks to our leader Dr. Puratchi Thaiaivi living in the hearts of the masses who had provided me with an opportunity to contest the elections and become a people's representative in this House representing the electorate of Tiruchengode constituency.
I support the Bill pertaining to small scale sector and ancillary industrial undertakings. In India there are about two lakhs and eighty six thousand small industrial units that are sick. Many of them are worst hit and have faced closure. Lakhs of workers and their families are facing several hardships due to their being rendered jobless. We may have to take effective steps not only to revive and revitalise these sick industrial units but also to rehabilitate the industrial workers who are hard-hit. Corres of rupees extended by the Government as loans to these small industrial units could not be recovered. The investments have come to a naught as they are beyond recovery. Hence it has become imperative to streamline the process of recovery while taking appropriate steps to revitalise them. I hope Government will pay attention to overcome the difficulties.
The loans that are being extended by the public sector banks must be advanced as and when they are required without any delay. Such loans should be long term loans with lesser rate of interest.
The members of the Committees that analyse the revival measures must be experienced people from similar industrial background. I would like to point out at this juncture the inclusion of people from the judiciary in those Committees that results in avoidable delays. This in turn affects the industrial units that need immediate attention. Thousands of people are hard hit by these delays. Assembly constituencies like Edeppadi, Sangagiri, _____________________________________________________________________________ *Translation of the Speech originally delivered in Tamil.
Tiruchengode, Erode in my Tiruchengode Lok Sabha constituency are having several small scale industrial units. Thousands of such small units have taken loan from the various nationalised banks. Those powerloom units are facing serious problems and are sick. Exportable textiles worth crores of rupees are lying dumped. I urge upon the Union Government to take immediate steps to dispose off these stagnated textile items.
The State administration has let loose acute power shortage to the powerloom sector. This has resulted in rendering thousands of workers unemployed. In whole of India, Tiruppur is the only knitting-industry-town that manufacture knitwear worth Rs 3000 crores annually. Those units must get liberal loans from the nationalised banks. Sick knitting-industry-units must get concessional interest rates. At times penal interests are levied on them. I urge upon the Union Government to withdraw heavy penal interests.
As far as dyeing industry is concerned, Union Government must immediately provide grants to the public processing units and effluent units. This must be attended through the Environment Ministry at the earliest.
Excise Department puts spoke in the handling of exports from these units. They have to overcome several bottlenecks. The public servants must be cordial in their dealings with these units. They need to have humane approach. The export and remission procedures must be simplified and streamlined in the case of draw back exporters.
Namakkal, Tiruchengode, Sangagiri and Erode in Tamil Nadu are having several lorry and truck transport firms. A good number of lorry owners are spread over there. Three years back an ancillary parts manufacturing unit was conceived to be set up in Namakkal. An Auto Nagar to benefit the lorry transporters there, by way of manufacturing lorry spare parts and ancillary parts, has not taken off in full steam as yet. I request the Union Government to impress upon the State Government to make this Auto Nagar in Namakkal a fully functional one.
National Backward Classes Development Corporation is to extend loan assistance to the needy entrepreneurs through the Tamil Nadu Backward Classes Development Corporation. Loans provided to individual entrepreneurs have been enhanced from Rs. 1 lakh to Rs 5 lakh. But in Tamil Nadu thousands of such loan applications are pending still. In some cases even after three years they could not get loans. They must get loans at least through the nationalised banks. Appropriate steps in this regard should be stepped up.
There are many steel rolling mills in and around Sangagiri in my constituency. Many of those steel rolling mills have become sick. Most of them have been closed. Thousands of workers have been rendered unemployed. Considering this alarming fall in industrial activity necessary steps must be taken to revitalise the those sick steel rolling mills in the interest of thousands of people who face several hardships. Right measures to rehabilitate these hapless workers are required.
Narasimham Committee has recently submitted its Part II Report. It has recommended to stop extending loans to small scale sector. But I urge upon the Union Government to continue giving loan assistance to small scale industries sector. It is only through this sector you can provide jobs to millions creating millions of jobs. Urging upon the Government to take necessary steps, and expressing my support to this Bill, I shall remain.
">SHRI K.S. RAO (MACHILIPATNAM): I thank the hon. Minister for having thought of the small scale industries and come out with a Bill to amend the Interest on Delayed Payments. In my view, the Bill could have been more comprehensive and elaborate taking into account several of the problems that are being faced by the small scale industries. Statistics reveal that the small scale industries are lagging behind. In the country, the general opinion about the services that are being rendered by the small scale industries and the small scale industrialists is that most of the small scale industries are a failure. The role that is being played by them is minimal. As my predecessor has said, 95 per cent of the total industrial units are in small scale industry and only five per cent account for major and medium industries. About 95 per cent of the small scale industry is given only Rs.30,000 crore, out of more than Rs.2,00,000 crore, lending by the banks, which comes to only 15 per cent.
While Rs.30,000 crore is the total investment made in the small scale sector, the generation of wealth, or the industrial product, by this sector is 40 per cent of the total wealth. The total amount involved in the sick industrial units is only Rs.3,000 crore. Even in the nationalised banks, the total debts are 15 per cent of the total of Rs.2,00,000 lakh crore which amounts to Rs.30,000 crore. Obviously, the Rs.3,000 crore locked up in 95 per cent of the total small scale industrial units producing 40 per cent of the wealth is marginal. It is very little; it is no money at all.
Naturally, the Government could have given more prominence, impetus, and support to the small scale industries everywhere instead of giving too much importance to major industries. With the multinationals coming in, even the heavy industries are worried as to what would happen to them. If this is the apprehension of heavy industries, what would be the fate of the small scale industries? Obviously, they have to be closed once and for all. The importance of the statement made by the late Nehru that sky was the limit for small scale industries was possibly not realised by many of us.
Statistics reveal that 45 per cent of the total exports is from the small scale sector. I would request the hon. Minister to give extensive publicity in the country, irrespective of whatever has been done in the past fifty years, to the services rendered by the small scale industries, and their potential. Eighty per cent of the total employment generated in the country is in the small scale industries with an investment of Rs.30,000 crore only. Heavy industries, with an investment of Rs.1,70,000 crore, could not provide more than 20 per cent of the total employment. By this one can realise the importance of the small scale industries. Yet, we are not looking at them with respect and we are not serving them properly. Even the financial institutions look at the small scale industrialists with suspicion when they are approached for loans. The way in which the loan amount is disbursed leads the small scale industry to sickness even by the time the machinery is installed and production started. Delay of disbursal is solely because of a sense of suspicion on the part of the banking institutions in releasing the funds. This also has to be rectified. This depends upon the attitude of the Government. Under the banking regulations, we are only giving 15 per cent of the total lending to the small scale sector. I would request the hon. Minister to have this 15 per cent increased to 30 per cent. This would increase the manufacturing activity and encourage the small scale industries. One of the reasons why some of the small scale industries fail is the lack of technical and management skills. Only those people who have got technical skills or management skills should be encouraged. If loans were to be given on the grounds of either political or personal favours, the results would naturally be poor. We all know that there is enormous technical manpower in this country. We are not short of technical manpower. Our technical manpower that has gone outside the country proved that India is number one in this field. Why are we not making use of it here then? Is it because we are not in a position to invest crores and crores of rupees? Do we want only people who can invest hundreds and thousands of crores of rupees? Is there any necessity for us to really attract multinational companies by giving a lot of incentives, neglecting the hoards of technical manpower which is available inside the country and which has got the capacity to produce enough wealth for this country? The Government should take right decisions in this regard and give encouragement to right kind of people.
16.00 hrs. Sir, we all know the advantages. Coming to the Bill, I would like to say that the overheads are less for small scale industries; the cost of production is less; and it is decentralised. Most of them are located in the rural areas. All major industrialists are interested in locating their industries only where there are airports. Obviously, when there is no decentralisation, there will be accumulation of wealth only in certain areas. If we look from any angle, we know that it is our responsibility to encourage the small scale industries. We also know the reasons for the failure of many of the small scale industries.
We all know, untimely distribution of finance and lack of sustenance are the major problems faced by the small scale industries. If they initially lose, their industry would be closed. They cannot take money from anywhere. Nobody would believe them. Institutions would not come forward to help them. Government will not extend support to them. It is all right. But if they get finance with heavy rate of interest from public, and do marketing, then nobody purchase their products. Everybody will be interested only in major industries. Government will not extend its support. These are the drawbacks of inadequate and delayed flow of institutional credit. ... (Interruptions) सभापति महोदय : चार बजे नियम १९३ के अधीन चर्चा लेनी थी। यदि सदन की सहमति हो तो केवल दो सदस्य और बोलने वाले हैं। यह बिल खत्म होने के बाद हम नियम १९३ के अधीन चर्चा ले लेंगे।
SHRI K.S. RAO (MACHILIPATNAM): Because of lack of infrastructure and marketing facilities, many of the small scale industries are failing. In case, if we were to give adequate support in this aspect, that is, marketing and timely finance, no small scale industry can ever fail. They have got skill. They work all round the clock. They are providing employment to their own local people. So, in every respect, it would be a success.
In this background, I would say that the proposal in the Bill is all right. But, I am of the opinion that you must put a time-limit for settling arbitration cases. Why did you bring in the Counsel? We know that there is enormous delay in settling these disputes in the court. If there is no time-limit for settling arbitration cases, then they would also prolong for years.
Firstly, I would request the hon. Minister to bring an amendment for fixing a time-limit for settling arbitration cases. It should be settled this way or that way.
Secondly, a provision has also been made for making payment of interest. It is all right. They may pay interest in time but when it is delayed for one or two years, by that time, the industry is closed, people are not available. Mere payment of interest is also not sufficient. Either bankers or institutions must come forward to provide a bridge loan till such time the amount is paid by the buyer or extra credit may be made available to them to run the industry. In the meantime, they should be assured of payment. I would request the hon. Minister to include these two things in the Bill.
Earlier, the price preference was given to the small scale industries, it is not being strictly given. Please ensure that small scale industries must be given price preference in selling their products.
I do not want to give an elaborate lecture on these matters, but I humbly request the hon. Minister that he must come up with more provisions in the Bill to safeguard the interests of the small scale industrial sector. The potential of the small scale industries is enormous. We do not require multinationals. We do not need to encourage heavy industries with thousands of crores of investments. We should take care, safeguard, encourage, and give facilities to the small scale industries in this country.
">SHRI S.S. PALANIMANICKAM (THANJAVUR): Mr. Chairman Sir, I welcome the Bill introduced by the Government. In India, 27 lakh small scale industries are there. There are about 1.6 crore people working in the small scale industries and out of that 42 per cent are from rural areas. In total, 48 per cent of the goods are Exported.
As far as the small scale industries are concerned, the affected people are the first generation people from some other business, and most of them are from rural areas or from agricultural families or those who are unemployed. Those who wish to start a small scale industry face a lot of problems from the banking institutions, particularly the nationalised banks.
As some of our hon. friends mentioned earlier, we have nationalised the banks but the system has not been changed. The small scale industries are at the mercy of these banks for getting the loans. So, we need a separate institution for the small scale industries.
Now, the multinational companies have started their businesses in our country because of the liberalisation policy. Unless we encourage the small scale industries, the sons of the soil would suffer a lot. Basically, those who start small scale industries are not from the industrialised families, they are the first generation people.
We welcome this Bill because in this Bill it is now proposed to include the public sector undertakings, viz., the National Small Industrial Corporation and the State Small Industries Development Corporations. Previously, these were not included in the Bill. This is one aspect, which we welcome in this Bill.
I would like to give some suggestions on the recovery of the delayed payments of interest. The matters that are there for arbitration are getting delayed. There are so many Departments involved in the arbitration proceedings. Arbitration takes more than 2-3 years to solve the cases. Now, the time limit is clear. But in the matter of arbitration, we are including three to four types of people.
Sir, now the guidelines are very clear. One-and-a-half times of the prime landing rate is the basic thing that is required. In the Bill, it has been proposed a person from the judicial side to finalise the things as early as possible. It is a welcome measure. It is also a welcome measure to decrease the number of days from 248 to 120. But the buyer should be directed to remit the amount which he has admitted, then only you can inititate the proceedings. We welcome and support the Bill.
">SHRI SUNIL KHAN (DURGAPUR): Thank you Sir. It was a long standing demand of the small scale sector. But while supporting the Bill, I would also like to say that the small scale and ancillary units cannot prosper or even be saved by merely making a provision for the interest on delayed payments. Sections 3 and 4 should be more simplified. If we see the Budget Proposals, which are quite in consonance with the conditions of the IMF and the World Bank, we will find that they go against the interests of the small scale industries in general.
The Finance Minister has proposed a reduction of excise duty on a number of articles, particularly on luxury goods which are generally used by the affluent sections of the society.
But there is an increase in excise duty in case of raw materials needed for soaps and other essential commodities which are used in the daily life of our society. If the Government is serious to restore the health of the small scale industries in general, and if they want their proper growth, then, they must bring a comprehensive Bill for that purpose. There are problems relating to the working capitals as has been stated in the Statement of Objects and Reasons. There are problems relating to the raw materials, marketing, infrastructure facilities, etc. In spite of that, the policy of liberalisation and globalisation has been adopted. Doors have been opened for multinationals through new economic policy. The small scale sector and the ancillary industries have been thrown open to an unequal competition.
So far as sickness is concerned, you know that the small scale sector is the main victim. A large number of small scale industries have been either closed or going to be closed. In case of RIC units of Durgapur and Calcutta, they are facing many troubles. They are not giving salaries and wages. Due to lack of working capital, they are not able to produce any product which is very essential for coal handling projects. The ancillary projects like HCL are also facing the same problem because they are not getting the dues from big companies like SAIL.
Even yesterday, 4500 employees were demanding their salaries from the management of the Bokaro Steel Plant. The Managing Director of Bokaro Steel Plant complained to the DC, Dhanbad, as a result, 4500 employees including the representatives of all the unions of HSCL were sent to jail. This is according to the telephonic message that I received. So, my earnest request is that this should be checked by the Department of Industries.
Again, I would like to say one thing about the Abid Hussain Committee report. What happened to the Abid Hussain Committee report? Why it is not implemented? It should be made clear to us.
What about agro-based industries? Seventy to eighty per cent of the people of India are villagers. So, agro-based industries can provide many jobs to the villagers.
16.13 hrs (Shri V. Sathiamoorthy in the Chair) I would also like to say one thing regarding the problem of handloom and handicraft industries. You do not provide any incentive to them. Even if you provide incentives to them, the handloom industries will not be able to compete with the powerloom industries. In my view, handloom industries have no chance of survival against powerloom industries. Therefore, I would request the Government that in order to promote handloom industries, it should come forward to buy their products, and thereafter, the Government should make necessary arrangement for production and distribution. Then only, handloom industries have a chance to face the challenge of powerloom industries. Again, I would request you that you should also provide other facilities to small scale industries, so that the heavy industries do not block the money that flows to the small scale industries.
Due to block by the big companies like SAIL & others the working capital is not being used in their industries. So, the Government have framed a rule in respect of small scale units that their payments have to be made promptly and if one fails to pay no decree or appeal can be made.
I would like to say that the Government should also make some sort of an arrangement to stop those illegal acts by those large scale industries with whom the money is blocked. Attention needs to be paid to this aspect and a provision in this regard is required to be made.
Lastly, I urge upon the Minister of Industry to look into this. I want to tell him once again that by merely bringing one provision for the payment of interest the problem will not be solved.
"> श्री रामदास आठवले (मुम्बई उत्तर-मध्य) : सभापति महोदय, मंत्री महोदय स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज को डेवलप करने के संबंध में जो बिल लाये हैं, उसके लिए वे बधाई के पात्र हैं। स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज देश में हजारों नहीं लाखों लोगों को रोजगार उपलब्ध कराती है, जिन लोगों ने अच्छी पढ़ाई की है, जो लोग ग्रेजुएट, पोस्ट ग्रेजुएट हो गये हैं, उन अनइम्पलायड लोगों को प्रयत्न करने के बाद भी नौकरी नहीं मिलती और वे अपना खुद का बिजनेस चलाना चाहते हैं, उनके लिए स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज और एन्सीलियरी यूनिटस बहुत महत्वपूर्ण हैं। इसलिए हमारा सोचना यह है कि जो सिक इंडस्ट्रीज हैं और जो उनका इंटरेस्ट है उसे कम करने के संबंध में इस बिल में प्रावधान होना चाहिए। जो लोग पचास लाख या एक करोड़ रुपये का लोन लेकर स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज खड़ी करते हैं, उनके उत्पादन के विपणन की जिम्मेदारी सरकार को लेनी चाहिए। उन्हें मार्केट में अपना माल बेचने में काफी कठिनाई आती है और छ: महीने या साल-दो साल में उन्हें अपना बिजनेस बंद करना पड़ता है। इसलिए मेरा सरकार से निवेदन है कि जो बिल आप लाये हैं इसे थोड़ा ब्रौड करने की आवश्यकता है। यदि स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज को आप मजबूत बनाना चाहते हैं तो उत्पादन के संबंध में इसमें कोई प्रावधान सरकार को करना चाहिए। सभापति महोदय, शेडयूल्ड कास्टस, शेडयूल्ड ट्राइब्स और जो गरीब समाज के मागासवर्गीय अनइम्पलायड है, उनको भी सुविधा देने के संबंध में आपको विचार करना चाहिए। सभापति महोदय, मैं लोन के बारे में भी कुछ कहना चाहता हूं। यदि किसी को पचास लाख रुपये का लोन लेना है तो उससे एक या दो करोड़ रुपये की प्रोपर्टी दिखाने की मांग आई.डी.बी.आई., नाबार्ड तथा नेशनलाइज्ड बैंक करते हैं। जो आदमी बेरोजगार है वह इस मांग को कैसे पूरी कर सकता है? इसलिए मेरी मंत्री महोदय से विनती है कि बिना इस तरह की मांग के सरकार द्वारा लोन देने के संबंध में सोचने की आवश्यकता है। यदि सरकार उनकी मदद करना चाहती है तो उसे यह जिम्मेदारी अपने ऊपर लेनी चाहिए। यह एक अच्छा विधेयक है, इसको थोड़ा और व्यापक बनाने के बारे में मंत्री महोदय को विचार करना चाहिए। अगर आप सही तरह से इन इंडस्ट्रीज को मजबूत करना चाहते हैं, सभापति महोदय, मैंने जो भी सुझाव दिए हैं, मुझे आशा है कि मंत्री महोदय उनके ऊपर विचार करेंगे और इस हाउस में दुबारा आएंगे। यह बिल तो ठीक है, लेकिन इसमें सुधार की बहुत गुंजाइश है। इस विधेयक के बारे में हम राजनीति नहीं लाना चाहते है। यह विषय राजनीति का है भी नहीं। यह विषय इंडस्ट्रीज से संबंधित है। हम सदन को यह विशवास दिलाना चाहते हैं कि जो अच्छा बिल होगा, उसका हम समर्थन करेंगे और जो बिल देश के हित में नहीं होगा, उसका हम विरोध करेंगे। आप जो भी अच्छा काम करेंगे, हम उसका सपोर्ट करेंगे। अंत में मैं पुन: कहना चाहता हूं कि इस बिल में और संशोधन करते हुए इसे और भी ब्राड बनाने की आवश्यकता है।
"> श्री प्रभुदयाल कठेरिया (फिरोजाबाद) : सभापति महोदय, माननीय मंत्री महोदय द्वारा लघु और आनुषंगिक औद्योगिक उपक़मों को विलंबित संदाय पर ब्याज (संशोधन) विधेयक, १९९८ पेश किया गया है, मैं इसका समर्थन करने के लिए खड़ा हुआ हूं। यह बहुत अच्छा विधेयक है और इसका उद्देश्य बहुत बढ़िया है और यह विधेयक देश के लघु उद्योगों के लाभ के लिए लाया गया है। अत: मैं इसका स्वागत करता हूं। सदन के अधिकांश सदस्यों ने, सामूहिक रूप से इस बिल का समर्थन किया है। इस बिल को लाने का जो सरकार का उद्देश्य है उसके अनुसार तो इसको बहुत पहले सदन में लाकर पास कर देना चाहिए था। सभापति महोदय, आज देश में लघु उद्योगों की जो स्िथति है वह ठीक नहीं है। इसके कई कारण हैं। यदि इस देश में पूर्ववर्ती सरकारों ने लघु उद्योगों की ओर ध्यान दिया होता, तो देश में आज लघु उद्योग बहुत पनप गए होते, लेकिन कांग्रेस सरकार ने जिस प्रकार से लघु उद्योगों की नीति अपनाई उसके कारण देश के ग्राम और देहातों में से लोग बड़े-बड़े शहरों-दिल्ली और कलकत्ता की गलियों में मारे-मारे फिर रहे हैं। देश के लघु उद्योंगों की आज जो स्िथति है और ग्रामीण क्षेत्रों के लोगों का शहरों की ओर जो पलायन हो रहा है वह हमारी कांग्रेस सरकार की देन है और उनकी गलत नीतियों के कारण यह सब हुआ है। सभापति महोदय, देश की सरकारें बड़े-बड़े उद्योगपतियों और पूंजीपतियों को प्रोत्साहन देती रही और लघु उद्योंगों के लिए कोई समग्र नीति नहीं बनाई जिसके कारण देश के कुटीर और लघु उद्योग पिछड़ते चले गए। बड़े-बड़े पूंजीपति और उद्योगपति इस देश के राजनीतिक दलों को चुनाव लड़ाते रहे और राजनीतिक दल उन्हें प्रश्रय देते रहे। इस देश के ३० लाख लघु उद्योगों में से आज ४ लाख लघु उद्योग बीमार हैं या बन्द होने की स्िथति में हैं जो चिन्ता का विषय है। सभापति महोदय, माननीय मंत्री महोदय, ने जो बिल सदन में पेश किया है, उसके लिए सरकार बधाई की पात्र है और उसका यह कदम स्वागत योग्य है। देश के लघु उद्योगों में २० प्रतिशत पूजी निवेश होता है और वे ८० प्रतिशत लोगों को रोजगार प्रदान करते हैं। आज हमारे देश में ५ करोड़ लोग शहरों की गलियों में टककर मारते फिर रहे हैं। ३ लाख बेरोजगार लोगों के रोजगार कार्यालय में नाम दर्ज हैं। सरकार उनके रोजगार की व्यवस्था नहीं कर पा रही है। यदि देश में लघु उद्योंगों को पनपाने और स्थापित करने की सही नीति होती, तो आज इतनी बड़ी संख्या में लोग बेरोजगार होकर मारे-मारे नहीं फिरते। मेरा आग्रह है कि लघु उद्योगों में बनने वाले माल को बड़े उद्योगों में बनाने की अनुमति नहीं देनी चाहिए। यदि लघु उद्योगों में बने माल की बड़े उद्योगों में बने माल से प्रतिस्पर्धा होगी, तो लघु और कुटीर उद्योग पनप नहीं पाएंगे। सभापति महोदय, मैं आपके माध्यम से सरकार से निवेदन करना चाहता हूं कि लघु उद्योगों को बिजली, पानी, कच्चा माल एवं अन्य सामान सस्ती दरों पर मुहैया कराना चाहिए और उनमें बने माल के विपणन की उचित व्यवस्था सरकार को करनी चाहिए। सरकार जिस ध्येय से इस बिल को लाई है, यदि वह अपने उद्देश्य में सफल हो जाती है, तो मुझे पूरा विश्वास है कि लघु और कुटीर उद्योग के क्षेत्र में बहुत तरककी होगी और लोगों को रोजगार मिल सकेगा। सभापति महोदय, जब लघु और कुटीर उद्योगों की चर्चा चल रही है, तो मैं अपने संसदीय क्षेत्र जहां से मैं आता हूं-फिरोजाबाद की चर्चा करना आवश्यक समझता हूं। फिरोजाबाद में ५०० लघु उद्योग की इकाइयां हैं जो ४०,००० लोगों को रोजगार दे रही हैं। लघु और कुटीर उद्योगों के मामले में दुनिया में सबसे अधिक सफल देश जापान है जहां घर-घर में इलैकट्रौनिकस के आइटम लघु और कुटीर उद्योगों में बन रहे हैं और दुनिया भर में प्रतियोगिता में बिक रहे हैं। हमारे देश में बड़े-बड़े उद्योगों के लिए तो सारी व्यवस्था और सुविधाएं हैं, लेकिन कुटीर और लघु उद्योगों के लिए कोई सुविधा व व्यवस्था नहीं है। मैं मंत्री महोदय से निवेदन करना चाहता हूं कि वे लघु और कुटीर उद्योगों को और अधिक मान्यता और सहायता दें। हर चीज की व्यवस्था करायें। आपने मुझे दो मिनट का समय दिया था इसलिए मैं आपके आदेश का पालन करते हुए पुन: मंत्री जी से कहना चाहता हूं कि यदि आप इन उद्योगों की व्यवस्था ठीक कर दें तो ग्रामीण क्षेत्र से जो लोग दिल्ली, कलकत्ता और मुम्बई के लिए पलायन कर रहे हैं, वह पलायन रुक जायेगा। इससे उनको रोजगार भी प्राप्त होगा और देश में फैली भुखमरी, लाचारी, बेकारी और बेरोजगारी में भी कमी होगी। अंत में मैं मंत्री जी से कहना चाहता हूं कि आप जिस बिल को लेकर आये, उसका हम समर्थन करते हैं।
">SHRI BIKRAM DEO KESHARI (KALAHANDI): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I support this Bill tabled by the hon. Industry Minister, wholeheartedly. The reason for my doing so is that this is an entrepreneur-friendly Bill. Besides, this is a Bill to further encourage and strengthen the small-scale industries.
The main purpose of this Bill which the hon. Minister has laid, is that there was an existing Act called the Interest on Delayed Payments to Small Scale and Ancillary Industrial Undertakings Act, 1993, but that Act had become practically infructuous; that was not effective. Therefore, to make it more effective and to enable the small scale industries to sustain themselves, this Bill has been brought by making certain amendments in the existing Act. The object of this Bill is to help the small scale industries in order to save them from sickness.
Sir, you will see that corporations and public sector undertakings were not covered within the ambit of the previous Act. But now the hon. Minister has brought this Bill by which the corporations also are covered within its ambit, thereby helping the small scale industries in selling their products and improving themselves.
It has been seen that most of the small scale industries in various States completely depend upon the public sector undertakings, such as, the Electricity Boards, Power Grid Corporations and various other public sector undertakings which are there in various States. So, by introducing this Bill, the Minister has given boost to the small scale sector.
Sir, you will be surprised to know that in States like Orissa and other backward States, most of the small scale industries have become sick today, the reason being delayed payments. Though they supply the goods, they do not receive the payment within the stipulated period of 240 days or 260 days. This period has now been brought down to 120 days, which shows the sincerity of the Government.
In the last 50 years, so much boost has been given to small scale industries but that was only on paper. In actual practice, the Act was never implemented. But today, whatever has been shown in the National Agenda, that has been clearly tabled in the House, and this will go a long way in strengthening the small scale industries and the kutir udyog.
Besides this, I would like to say that in Clause 6 of the Bill, there is a mention of the establishment of an Industry Fecilitation Council in every State. I hope, by this, the industries will get their due.
You will also see, Sir, that thousands of industries are registered under EPM rate contract. There are thousands of industries covered under the Small Scale Industries Corporation, but when they want to get raw material, they do not get it. In the EPM rate contract, it is provided that their articles will be given price preference over other industries, but that is not followed.
MR. CHAIRMAN : Please conclude now. You are going beyond the scope of this Bill.
SHRI BIKRAM DEO KESHARI (KALAHANDI): So, Sir, I thank the hon. Minister for bringing this Bill. This Bill will definitely facilitate the small scale industries to a greater extent and strengthen them in various parts of the country.
"> उद्योग मंत्री (श्री सिकन्दर बख्त): सभापति महोदय, कल से मैंनें माननीय सदस्यों को इस बिल पर तकरीर करते हुए सुना। मेरे पास सिवाए इसके कि मैं शुक़गुजारी के ज़ज्बात सब तक पहुंचाऊं, कोई और बात नहीं है कयोंकि इस बिल को यूनीवर्सल सपोर्ट दी गई है। सिर्फ एक साहब ने कहा था कि यह बिल कम्प्रीहैनसिव नहीं है। मैं उन की तकरीर बहुत गौर से सुन रहा था और उम्मीद कर रहा था कि कम्प्रीहैनसिव न होने के सिलसिले में कोई स्पैसीफिक तज्वीज़ आए तो मैं उस पर गौर करूं। थोड़ी-बहुत कमी की तरफ इशारा करते हुए शायद सुनील खान साहब ने कहा था क सैकशन ३ और ४ को कुछ कम्प्रीहैनसिव बनाने की कोशिश की जा सकती थी। वाकया यह है कि स्माल स्केल के सिलसिले में बहुत अहमियत का इज़हार किया गया है कि हिन्दुस्तान की एकादमी में उसकी खास जगह है, उसे जितना भी प्रोत्साहन हो, जितनी भी मदद हो, प्रोटैकशन हो, जरूर देनी चाहिए। यह बिल दरअसल बुनियादी तौर पर वही है जो १९९३ में, इस चीज को महसूस करने के बाद कि स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज जो माल बड़े उद्योगों को सप्लाई करती हैं, उनको तैयार माल की कीमत वकत पर नहीं मिलती, लाया गया है। जिस पैसे को वे अपनी इंडस्ट्रीज में लगाते हैं, वह सीमित होता है, महदूद होता है। मल्िलकार्जुनैया जी ने यह कहा था कि स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज इंडीपैंडैंट होनी चाहिए। वे ऐन्सीलियरीज में पहुंचे। यह बात इस सवाल से बिल्कुल अलग है जिसे लेकर हम यह बिल लाए हैं। इस बिल को लाने का मकसद सिर्फ यह था, जिस मकसद से १९९३ का बिल लाया गया था कि स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज को उनके माल की कीमत वकत पर मिले। वह बात पूरी नहीं हो सकी, लिहाज़ा उस कमी को पूरा करना है। यह बिल इंडीपैंडैंट हैसियत कम रखता है और १९९३ के बिल की अमैंडमैंट की सूरत में लाया गया है। इसमें चार सैकशन्स को अमैंड करने के लिए लिखा गया है। सैकशन २ (एफ) में सप्लायर की डैफीनिशन को अमैंड करने का प्रस्ताव है। सैकशन ३ में यह प्रपोज़ किया गया है कि इसे अमैंड करके उनके पेमैंट करने के पीरियड को १२० दिन कर दिया जाए। ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI K.S. RAO : If the payment is not made within 120 days, there is no penal provision for that. श्री सिकन्दर बख्त: सैकशन ४ में इसमें तब्दीली लाने की बात की गई है The change in interest rate policy was necessitated to determine the penal rate of interest at one and a half times of the prime lending rate of the State Bank. प्राइम लैंडिंग रेट जो स्टेट बैंक का है, उसका वन एंड ए हाफ टाइम है। सैकशन ६ में फैसीलिटेशन कमेटी का जिक़ किया गया है। फैसीलिटेशन कमेटी के सिलसिले में अकसर जिक़ हुआ है कि इससे डिलेड पेमैंट का सिलसिला चल सकता है, उनका फैसला टाइम बाउंड होना चाहिए। इस इंस्टीटयूशन का जो तसव्वुर हमने अपने सामने रखा है, वह बुनियादी है कि स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज के, बड़ी इंडस्ट्रीज जिनको वे माल सप्लाई करती हैं, से ताल्लुकात अच्छे बने रहें। इसमें ज्यादा तकलीफ है कि बड़ी इंडस्ट्रीज उनसे माल ले लेती हैं और उनकी इस कमजोरी का फायदा उठाती हैं कि कल फिर यदि बड़ी इंडस्ट्री को माल देना है तो उनको उनके दरवाजे पर पहुंचना पड़ेगा, इस अहतियात को सामने रखकर कि कल भी उन्हें माल सप्लाई करना है, हमने स्माल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज और उनके दरम्यान ताल्लुकात बेहतर करने की कोशिश की है। इसलिए हमने पहले कन्सीलिएशन की बात की है। वकत लगेगा। लेकिन जहां तक हो सके, झगड़े तक बात न पहुंचे, ताल्लुकात के सुधार की हद तक बात पहुंचे। उस सुधार में उनकी जो दिककतें हैं, उनको दूर किया जाये, यह कन्सैप्ट है। जहां कंसीलिएशन की बात हमने की है, जब कंसीलिएशन नहीं होगा तो फिर कंसीलिएशन कमेटी अपने आप आर्बीट्रेशन की शकल अख्ितयार कर लेगी। इसलिए मैं चाहूंगा कि ऑनरेबिल मैम्बर्स के जेहन में यह बात रहे। जो टाइम बाउंड होने या टाइम लमिट रखने की बात की गई है, हमारी कोशिश यह है कि स्मॉल स्केल ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI K.S. RAO : What about the time limit for arbitration? श्री सिकन्दर बख्त : आर्बीट्रेशन की टाइम लमिट का सवाल नहीं है। हम पहला जो कदम उठा रहे हैं, वह कंसीलिएशन के लिए उठा रहे हैं, और बुनियादी एप्रोच हमारे तमाम सवाल की यह है कि हम बड़ी पहले जो १९९३ का एकट था, उसमें गुंजाइश थी कि ये लोग अदालत में जा सकते हैं, लेकिन अदालत में दसियों वर्ष तक मुकदमा चलता है। दस वषर्ों तक मुकदमा चलाने का मतलब यह है कि स्मॉल स्केल दूसरी बात, जज और ब्यूरोक़ेट की बात की गई है। मैं अर्ज करूंगा कि पहले तो यह समझा जाये, as per the proposed Amendment Bill, the Director of Industries is only one of the members of the Facilitation Council. कमेटी अकेली नहीं है, उनके साथ एक साहब ने, शायद राम साहब आपने ही प्राइस प्रिफरेंस की बात कही है। गवर्नमेंट जो माल एस.एस.आई. से, छोटी SHRI K.S. RAO : You are talking more on the relation between the supplier and the buyer. But the very same House had passed a Bill to the effect that if the cheque given by a purchaser is dishonoured, he would be arrested. So, he is making payment because of that fear. This Bill will become ineffective if there is no fear on the part of the buyer. श्री सिकन्दर बख्त : इसमें फियर की काफी गुंजाइश है। यह जो कमेटी बनी है, इसको मैं नहीं कह सकता कि यह आखिरी लफज़ है और इसके बाद कोई इम्प्रूवमेंट नहीं हो सकता। लेकिन पिछले पांच वर्ष के तजुर्बे के बाद जो कुछ हम सोच सकते हैं कि कैसे १९९३ के एकट को ज्यादा टीथ प्रोवाइड कर सकें, ज्यादा इफैकिटव बना सकें, तभी हम यह बिल लाये हैं। हम उम्मीद करते हैं कि इसका नतीजा बेहतर निकलेगा। मैंने कल यह सोचा था कि चूंकि तमाम मैम्बरान हजरात से इस बिल की सपोर्ट की आवाज आई है, मुझे ज्यादा बोलने की जरूरत नहीं है। सिर्फ उन मैम्बरान हजरात को, जिन्होंने इस बिल को सपोर्ट किया है, उनका शुक़िया अदा करना है। मैं उम्मीद करता हूं कि स्मॉल स्केल अगर स्मॉल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज को नहीं बचा सकेंगे तो हम हिन्दुस्तान की इकॉनोमी को नहीं संभाल सकेंगे। कोशिशें बराबर जारी हैं। जिस चीज पर आपने इसरार किया है, उस पर हुकूमत की बराबर नज़र है, इसलिए मैं दरख्वास्त करता हूं कि इस बिल को पास करें।
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, I just want to ask one question. Is there any proposal on the part of the Government to de-reserve any of the industries which are reserved for small scale industries?
SHRI SIKANDER BAKHT: Sir, the question has gone out of the scope of the present Bill. But it does not matter. I will reply to you. This is your view of de-reservation and it has been the view of other organisations too. But the small scale industries are not interested in getting any item de-reserved.
DR. SAROJA V. (RASIPURAM): Sir, this Bill does not say anything about the revival action plan for all the sick SSIs. The reason being the lack of coordination between entrepreneurs, District Industry Department, financing institution, buyer and seller. Will the Government come forward to fix the responsibility of the loss borne by the company to be shared equally by the financing company, the District Industry Department and those who are involved in this?
Secondly, to encourage women entrepreneurs, the single window system is not properly implemented. Will the Government take any action regarding this? श्री प्रभुदयाल कठेरिया : सभापति महोदय, मेरी प्रार्थना यह है कि जिस प्रकार से मंत्री जी ने चिंता व्यकत की है और सराहनीय कदम उठाया है, इसलिए मैं उनसे पूछना चाहता हूं कि माननीय सदस्यों ने जो विचार व्यकत किए हैं, कया भविष्य में सरकार समूचे भारत में जितने भी प्रांत हैं उनमें ऐसे नगर हैं, जहां पांच-पांच सौ की पूर्ित में कम से कम स्मॉल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज रन कर रही हैं, वहां पर कच्चे माल, पानी-बिजली, सम्पर्क मार्ग की व्यवस्था करेंगे जिससे स्मॉल स्केल इंडस्ट्रीज ठीक प्रकार से उत्पादन और माल की खपत कर सकें?
MR. CHAIRMAN : This Bill concerns only with penalising the bankers. श्री सिकन्दर बख्त: जो माननीय महिला सदस्या का सवाल था, वह मेरी समझ में आया, अगली बात मेरी समझ में नहीं आई। फिर भी मैं यह अर्ज करना चाहता हूं कि रिवाइवल का सवाल मौजूदा बिल से ताल्लुक नहीं रखता। लेकिन मैं माननीय सदस्य को यकीन दिलाना चाहता हूं कि ६३ या ६४ यूनिटस बी.आई.एफ.आर.को मेनशंड हैं। सरकार पूरी कोशिश कर रही है और बी.आई.एफ.आर. भी कोशिश में लगा हुआ है कि उनके रिवाइवल के पैकेज तैयार किए जाएं कयोंकि हम यह जानते हैं कि अगर कोई यूनिट बंद होगा तो कितने एम्पलॉइज बेकार हो सकते हैं, इसलिए हम कोई ऑप्शन नहीं छोड़ना चाहते। हर सूरत में किसी भी सिक इंडस्ट्री को रिवाइव करने की कोशिश की जाएगी। श्री प्रभुदयाल कठेरिया :आगरा-फिरोजाबाद की सिक यूनिट की तरफ भी ध्यान दिया जाए, मेरी प्रार्थना है कयोंकि उसका बड़ा महत्व है। श्री रामानन्द सिंह (सतना): गाजियाबाद की भी सिक यूनिट हैं।
... (व्यवधान)
SHRI TAPAN SIKDAR (DUMDUM): Sir, a large number of sick industries are in West Bengal. I would like to mention that there are 95,000 sick industries in West Bengal... (Interruptions) श्री सिकन्दर बख्त: मैं सभापति महोदय से यह जानना चाहता हूं कि मैं एक-एक सदस्य के सवाल का जवाब दूं या सब सदस्यों की बात सुनकर इकट्ठा जवाब दूं? मुझे कया करना है?
MR. CHAIRMAN : The question is :
"That the Bill to amend the Interest on Delayed Payments to Small Scale and Ancillary Industrial Undertakings Act, 1993, be taken into consideration."
The motion was adopted.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The House will now take up clause by clause consideration of the Bill.
"That clauses 2 to 6 stand part of the Bill."
The motion was adopted.
Clauses 2 to 6 were added to the Bill.
MR. CHAIRMAN : The question is :
"That Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Long Title stand part of the Bill"
The motion was adopted.
Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.
SHRI SIKANDER BAKHT: Sir, I beg to move :
"That the Bill be passed."
MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is:
"That the Bill be passed."
The motion was adopted.
________ MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, the House will take up the discussion under Rule 193. Shri Bhubaneswar Kalita.
... (Interruptions)
THE MINISTER OF PETROLEUM AND NATURAL GAS (SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY): Sir, what about the second Bill? Are we going to sit even after six o'clock?
SHRI BHUBANESWAR KALITA (GUWAHATI): We will take it up later. The time for this discussion has been fixed at four o'clock, and there are only two speakers to raise.
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: I am not objecting to the discussion under Rule 193. I am just asking the Chair whether we are going to extend the time after six o'clock.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If the House agrees, we will take up the Bill after six o'clock.SHRI P.C. CHACKO (IDUKKI): Sir, that we will decide at six o'clock. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: Yesterday also, you did the same thing.
SHRI P.C. CHACKO : We will decide at six o'clock. Let him continue now.
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: Yesterday also, you did the same thing.
SHRI P.C. CHACKO : What do you mean by that? We have not decided to sit beyond that time.
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: Yesterday also, you have not cooperated with us.
SHRI P.C. CHACKO : Please understand that you are talking in the House. You have to have some responsibility. This is not the way. What is this? You are allowing the Minister to make such a reference! ... (Interruptions)
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: In the List of Business, my Bill has been listed. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI P.C. CHACKO : Why do you interfere? What right do you have to interfere? It is not your duty to interfere in other's business. If the Minister is mentioning my name, then I have got the right to speak. It is not your business. Mr. Chairman, Sir, you should not allow the Minister to make such a reference.
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: I have not made any reference about your name.
SHRI P.C. CHACKO : What kind of a reference he is making? What is this?
SHRI VAZHAPADY K. RAMAMURTHY: Yesterday, we have not extended the time. That is why, today, I am asking the Chair whether we are going to extend the time or not.
SHRI BHUBANESWAR KALITA (GUWAHATI): Sir, I am going to raise a more important matter than this. Will you pay your attention to that? ... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: I have already said that if the House permits, we will sit after six o'clock. Shri Bhubaneswar Kalita.