Lok Sabha Debates
Raised A Discussion On The Reply Given By The Minister Of Home Affairs During ... on 3 August, 1998
Title: Raised a discussion on the reply given by the Minister of Home Affairs during Question Hour on 21.7.98 regarding Leila Seth Commission.
MR. SPEAKER: The House will now take up Half-an-Hour Discussion.
Shri N.K. Premchandran.
SHRI N.K. PREMCHANDRAN (QUILON): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to have a discussion on the Leila Seth Commission.
Sir, in regard to the answer given by the hon. Home Minister to the Starred Question No.492, dated 21.7.98, I would like to seek certain clarifications. Before coming to the points of clarifications, I would like to narrate a brief history of the case.
Sir, this is a case which involves very important human rights issues as well as some legal issues also. The death of Shri Rajan Pillai in the year 1995 created so many doubts and suspicions in the minds of people all over the country. Article 21 of the Constitution of India, I think, provides for the best precious right to the citizens of this country. No person shall be deprived of his right to life and personal liberty except in accordance with the procedure established by law.
In the case of Shri Rajan Pillai, his life and personal liberty were not protected because of that he died. He died due to lack of proper treatment in Tihar Central Jail when he was in the judicial custody. It is an admitted fact that his death is due to lack of proper treatment. It is the duty of the concerned Government authorities to provide proper medical treatment. He was a prominent business man. He was suffering from chronic liver cirrhosis, hypertension and blood vomiting and he was found guilty by the court of Singapore. Since he was found guilty by the court of Singapore, he came to India to seek justice from the Indian judicial system.
1805 hours (Shri Raghuvansh Prasad Singh in the Chair) At the same time, the Government of Singapore had sought Shri Rajan Pillai by way of extradition. The Government of India had constituted an Extradition Magistrate Court and the Court was constituted on 1st July, 1995.
On 1st July itself, the designated Extradition Magistrate had issued a non-bailable warrant against him and he was arrested on 4th July, 1995 at 0.15 a.m. He was brought to the court at 10 a.m. on 4th July 1995. He had moved a bail application. Along with the bail application, he had also moved an application seeking proper medical treatment in some super speciality hospital since he was ailing with livercirrhosis and other diseases. He had submitted so many medical records and the medical records from Escorts Hospital and a hospital from Singapore also had been produced. But the learned court had rejected the bail application as well as the application for medical treatment.
The thing is that he was remanded to the Tihar Central Jail. On 5th and 6th also, he was brought to the court. Again, he had pleaded for better treatment but it was denied. What happened was that on 7th we heard the shocking news that he had died due to lack of proper medical treatment. That is by 7th night by 8.20 a.m. On 27th July 1995, the Delhi Government had appointed a Commission, i.e. Leila Seth Commission under Section 3 of the Inquiry Commissions Act, 1952. I would like to stress upon the main terms of reference of Commission which is to ascertain the circumstances and sequence of events leading to the death of Shri Rajan Pillai.
The Commission had submitted its report. The specific finding of the Commission is that he had died due to lack of medical treatment. He was not given adequate and proper medical treatment inside Tihar Central Jail. But the Commission has not gone into the factum of conspiracy.
There are sufficient evidence to believe that there is some deliberate attempt at some corners not to give proper medical treatment because of the following reasons.
1. On 4th July, when he was produced before the Magistrate -- it is the finding of the Commission -- and when he was remanded, along with the remand order, the learned Magistrate had also given a confidential urgent letter directing the Resident Medical Officer of Tihar Central Jail to have a medical examination of the particular prisoner and that the physical condition of the prisoner had to be reported on 5th July at 2 p.m. This confidential letter is also sent along with the remand order. But it is quite unfortunate to note that this letter as well as the medical records did not reach the hands of RMO. But the Assistant Jail Superintendent of the Tihar Central Jail had received those letters. The letter seeking medical examination as well as the medical records were received by the Assistant Jail Superintendent. It is the finding of the Commission but the Commission did not say anything about what prevented from giving the letters to the RMO and who is behind it, how it happened. That has not been gone into. There is reasonable suspicion.
2. When the bail application as well as the medical treatment application had been prayed before the court, the Central Bureau of Investigation, the agency of investigation was vehemently opposing the application. It is very pertinent to note that the CBI was well aware that the physical condition of Shri Rajan Pillai was deteriorating day by day. He was produced on 5th, 6th July and all these days. Even though the RMO certificate was with the CBI -- that finding is also there in Para 39, Page 170, I am not going to quote that -- they did not disclose the fact before the court and they had opposed it.
3. When a prisoner is brought to the Jail, there is a rule that he should be subjected to Mulahiza, Registered Medical Treatment and a Mulahiza register is also kept.
His physical condition has to be inspected and the same is to be registered in the Mulahiza Register. He was brought to the jail on the 4th and it was not registered. It was not done. It was not done on the 5th. It was not done on the 6th. According to the Commission's findings, as per the Register, it was done on 7th morning at 10.00 a.m. So, there is a reasonable suspicion that it was after the death of Shri Rajan Pillai, it was being recorded in the Register. Similarly, as per the Commission's findings, there are so many circumstances which drive us to think that there is a reasonable apprehension that there is some conspiracy behind the death of the said prisoner. The Commission's finding is there regarding the conspiracy. So, since the Leila Seth Commission has not gone into the aspect of conspiracy, the wife of the said prisoner has prayed for to have an investigation upon the conspiracy angle. What the Commission said was that the wife of Shri Rajan Pillai did not adduce proper evidence. As per the Commission of Inquiry Act, under Section 5A, this Commission is having every right to go into the factum of conspiracy and to appoint any other agency also. Furthermore, it is the Delhi State Government which has appointed this Commission of Inquiry. This is a matter in which the CBI is involved. This is a matter in which extradition subject is also involved. These two subjects are listed as Item Nos.8 and 18 in the Seventh Schedule, List-1. So, I would urge upon the Government of India, especially, the hon. Home Minister to have an inquiry or to take further action on the basis of the report and also to have an inquiry regarding the factum of conspiracy. Who prevented? What is the reason? The ATR is also there. There is a specific observation against the CBI also, about which I have already mentioned. But no action has been taken against the CBI also. Only a disciplinary action has been taken against two doctors. Nothing has been done even against the Jail Superintendent. So, we are fully stressing upon this matter from the point of view of human rights issue. This is not a question of a person. A person who was having the fundamental right to have medical care was being denied and that was to be inquired into by the Commission, but the Commission did not go into the factum of conspiracy which was being alleged before the Court. Hence, I urge upon the Government of India, considering the human rights aspect, to concede to this request. We have no other go, because I belong to a constituency from where he came. His father is laid up after that incident. He has not woken up so far. This has to be considered very sympathetically. Even his wife had fought against me in the last Parliamentary elections. So, I would like to suggest that since the Leila Seth Commission has some gaps regarding the conspiracy aspect, it has to be inquired into, and appropriate action has to be taken. I would like to have a very favourable clarification from the hon. Minister in this respect.
In the State Legislative Assembly also, after the Commission's report, this matter was discussed. The hon. Chief Minister, Shri E.K. Nayanar has requested the Government of India to have a re-inquiry into this matter. So, this matter had been discussed by the State Legislative Assembly also.
With these requests, I conclude my speech. Thank you very much.
">PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): Respected Chairman Sir, I thank you for calling me. I will not take much of your time. I am sure that my friend, Shri Premchandran must have explained the reason why we have requested for this Half-an-Hour Discussion. There was a Commission of Inquiry constituted by the Delhi Government. That has submitted its report. Our submission is that the report of the Commission does not cover the conspiracy aspect of the murder of Shri Rajan Pillai. I will only ask certain questions. The hon. Home Minister is here. Kindly enlighten us on certain points. Shri Rajan Pillai was arrested by the CBI. I would say that he was arrested by the CBI in an ugly haste. He came from Singapore hoping that his country would give him justice.
He did not get justice in a foreign country. He came here hoping that he would get justice. But the moment he landed here, he was arrested. All right, that was up to the CBI to arrest if there is sufficient justification. I do not know; it is all right. But the question is he was brought to the Tihar Jail. There he complained of sickness, liver cirrhosis. Not only that he complained but medical certificate was also shown. Not only that; he mentioned the hospital treatment he had in Singapore. He was suffering from a serious illness.
It is a most unfortunate thing that the jail doctors did not give him proper treatment. In his bail application before the court of law he produced all the records of his treatment including the medical certificate. The court did not allow him to be taken to a hospital where specialised treatment for his disease was available. Not only that. The hon. court mocked at him for his luxurious living. He was the Chairman of a big multinational company, Britannia. An Indian became the Chairman of the multinational company. He became the Chairman of his own hard work.
He may be staying in a five-star hotel. Yes. But that is no reason to deny him adequate medical treatment. The hon. court mocked at him for his lifestyle and commented that he was a luxurious patient. We cannot discriminate between a luxurious patient, a rich patient or a poor patient. Everybody has to be given proper treatment. And what I read in the newspapers is that he was not taken to a specialised hospital for his disease which was nothing less than liver cirrhosis. Furthermore, the CBI objected to giving him this treatment.
I gave a notice to discuss this question. Rajan Pillai is no more. His parents and family are still in agony. But this should not happen to any citizen of this country. I am not an advocate. Legal luminaries like Shri Somnath Chatterjee are sitting in this House. Many other advocates are there. I am surprised to see that when a person in custody in jail complains of an ailment, when he says that he is sick, is it for the judiciary to decide whether he is sick or not? Is it for the judiciary to decide? If some judge commits a mistake, I do not know whether we can correct it. Here I see a very big lapse in our system. This system has to be corrected.
I have other examples also. Because Rajan Pillai was an important man and a former Chairman of a multinational company everybody knew about him. How many of the poor in this country are suffering in the jails and dying because we do not give them proper medical treatment? That is my complaint. Through this case, I am bringing this important thing to the notice of the House that our system should be corrected by removing this important lapse and lacuna.
With regard to Rajan Pillai's case, I have had an occasion to glance through the inquiry report. I find that the conspiracy aspect -- there is a conspiracy -- first of all the jail doctor's callous and indifferent attitude, the CBI showing haste in arresting him, the CBI objecting to provide him medical treatment, the courts commenting adversely and not giving him proper treatment, all this points towards some kind of a conspiracy. I do not know whether there is a conspiracy. But we doubt, not only we but everyone who knows Rajan Pillai, all Keralites, not only Keralites but many others doubt that there is some conspiracy because there was business rivalry.
He was the Chairman of a multinational company. There was some other company also. So, there was business competition and Rajan Pillai had become the victim of the business rivalry which is so prevalent in the multinational business concerns. This is our concern.
In our country, our system, our CBI, our Judiciary, our doctors, all are instrumental to implement this bigger conspiracy. So, my submission to the hon. Home Minister, through you, Sir, is that please get it examined whether there was a conspiracy angle with regard to the death of Rajan Pillai. If it is so, then those people should be brought to book. This is our submission.
My second submission is that kindly go through our Criminal Procedure Code and all those formalities and see that our citizens who are suffering in jails, whether accused or convicted or whatever it may be, should be given medical treatment if they are complaining ailment.
These are my two submissions and I hope the hon. Home Minister will respond to these. Thank you very much.
"> श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार (चैल): माननीय सभापति महोदय, आपने माननीय ग्ृाह मंत्री द्वारा लीला सेठ आयोग के बारे में तारांकित प्रश्न संख्या ४९२ के २१.७.९८ को दिये गये उत्तर से उत्पन्न मुद्दों पर बोलने के लिये... सभापति महोदय :आपको बोलने के लिये नहीं, यदि आपको कुछ पूछना है तो पूछिये। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: मैं डिटेल्ज़ में नहीं जाना चाहता.. सभापति महोदय : सब लोग बोल चुके हैं। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: मैं माननीय सदस्य श्री एन.के. प्रेमचन्द्रन तथा प्रो. कुरियन द्वारा जो चर्चा प्रारम्भ की है, उससे सम्बद्ध करते हुये कहना चाहता हूं कि आज सबसे बड़ा सवाल मानवाधिकार से जुड़ा हुआ है। आप देखिये कि जेल में सुरक्षा और स्वास्थ्य के नाम पर एक सवालिया निशान खड़ा होता है कि वहां ये व्यवस्थायें किस प्रकार की जा रही हैं। यह बहुत चिन्ताजनक है। सभापति महोदय, आपने समाचार-पत्रों में पढ़ा होगा कि जेलों के अंदर बड़े-बड़े कैदियों के पास सेलुलर फोन और हथियार तक पहुंच रहे हैं। जो आपत्ितजनक वस्तुयें नहीं पहुंचनी चाहिये, वे उन तक पहुंच रही हैं। यह देश की अंदरूनी सुरक्षा पर बहुत बड़ा प्रश्नचिन्ह है। दूसरी बात यह है कि लखनऊ जेल मे अभी... सभापति महोदय : लखनऊ जेल की बात इसमें नहीं चलेगी। आप आसन ग्रहण कीजिये। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: इससे जुड़ा हुआ सवाल है... सभापति महोदय : आधा घंटा की डिबेट है। यह उससे संबंधित प्रश्न नहीं है। आप आसन ग्रहण कीजिये। देश भर की बात इसमें नहीं आती। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: दूसरी तरफ इलाहाबाद में युवा ... (व्यवधान) की पुलिस पिटाई से म्ृात्यु हुई है। सभापति महोदय : आप अब इलाहाबाद की बात कर रहे हैं। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: सभापति जी, जेल में उस युवा की म्ृात्यु हो गई। उसे अस्पताल में लाया गया। सबसे बड़ा प्रश्न सुरक्षा और पुलिस से संबंधित है जिसकी ओर माननीय ग्ृाह मंत्री को ध्यान देना चाहिये। यह मानवाधिकार से सीधे जुड़ा हुआ मामला है। फर्जी मुठभेड़ के नाम पर इलाहाबाद में ... (व्यवधान) हत्याये हो रही है । सभापति महोदय : इसमें इलाहाबाद का मामला बहस के लिये नहीं है। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: मैं इलाहाबाद का नाम नही बता रहा हूं। चूंकि जेल में फर्जी मुठभेड़ के नाम पर हत्या हुई है, इसलिये यह सीधे मानवाधिकार से जुड़ा हुआ प्रश्न है। मैं आपके माध्यम से माननीय ग्ृाह मंत्री जी से निवेदन करना चाहता हूं कि कम से कम जो कांड हो रहे हैं, उन पर गौर करें। इस पर ठोस कदम उठायें और जेलों तथा पुलिस पर कंट्रोल करें। सभापति महोदय : इस विषय से आपका कोई मतलब नहीं है। श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार: सभापति महोदय, सी.बी.आई. की कस्टडी में मार दिया। श्री लालू प्रसाद (मधेपुरा) : सभापति जी, सी.बी.आई. का मामला सी.बी.आई. से जांच कराईये।
">SHRI P.C. CHACKO (IDUKKI): Sir, an unparalleled tragedy, which was very shocking, especially for the people of Kerala, has been explained here very effectively in detail by Shri Premachandran. I am here only to ask one question. About certain things which are said here, even though I do not agree to those, I am not going to deal with them. I do not know the biscuit baron Rajan Pillai or the business tycoon Rajan Pillai.
I know Shri Rajan Pillai who was a student of Quilon S.N. College. He was a contemporary in student movement with us. He was a person who by his sheer hard work rose to the level of the Chairman of a multinational company. I do not know whether there was any crime registered against him in some other country or not or what legal proceedings were there against him, but the law in this country says that even a proclaimed offender should not be denied the medical treatment. Here is a case, as said by Prof. Kurien, where the District Magistrate had specifically directed the jail authorities that this man was under a particular medication and should be taken to the doctor, he should be given medical examination and medicines. After arresting him on the 4th, when he was taken to the court after 24 hours, the poor man was on the brink of death. He was trying to convince the Magistrate saying that his arms and legs were swelled and he was not given the medicines. The cruelty was that the Magistrate made a comment which I cannot quote here, but the fact is that medical treatment was not given and medicines were denied to the man who was on the brink of death due to his chronic problems.
The question which I want to place here before the hon. Home Minister is that there are many innocent people languishing in the Indian jails. People are being arrested for nothing, no charge-sheet is filed, and no trial is conducted. For years together, people are languishing in the jails. Here is a case which is nothing else but a cold blooded murder. The jail authorities wanted to extract money thinking that he was a Chairman of a multinational companies and was a moneyed man. So, the cruelty of the jail authorities killed this man.
The Leila Seth Commission was appointed by Shri Madan Lal Khurana when he was the Chief Minister of Delhi. Sir, I am asking the hon. House, the Chair and the hon. Home Minister about this human angle. What is the next step in this matter? Shri Khurana had done the right thing by appointing Leila Seth Commission. Leila Seth Commission went into the matter, came out with the Report and has said very clearly that this man was denied the medical treatment and the responsibility of his killing or his death was on the jail authorities also. This Report is there in black and white.
Here, Shri N.K. Premchandran has said that there were a lot of other things also. In spite of the specific suggestions from the Magistrate, his health records were concealed and attention was not given to him. If you go through the narration of Shri Premchandran, it very clearly says that there was a conspiracy also. Law in this country is for the people. The Report is of the Commission, which was appointed by the Delhi Government. I know the limitations. The Home Minister is here. This is a typical case. This man was killed or murdered, but, as Prof. Kurien has said, such things should not happen in this country in future. That is all what we can wish for. I do not know whether it is possible under the same Commission of Inquiries Act, but I think that it is very much legally possible that the Home Ministry make a further inquiry into the matter. The conspiracy angle was not then gone into. The Report of the Commission is very clear. It has implicated the jail authorities. It is almost clear that it was a cold blooded murder.
Apart from whatever charges were there against him, justice was denied to him. A person was beaten to death in Tihar Jail. It happened directly under the nose of the jail authorities and the Government. So, I would tell the hon. Home Minister that this is the feeling not only of the people of Kerala but the whole justice-loving citizens. So, the hon. Home Minister may kindly assure us that the Government of India will take the maximum possible steps in this matter so that people who are aggrieved - there are a large number of people who are still living with pain - at least, their agony can be lessened to an extent by the prompt action of the Government of India. So, a further inquiry in the matter and action, according to the present Inquiry Report as well as the inquiry which the Government of India can initiate, may kindly be taken, and the grievances and agony of the people can be redressed. This is my request.
">THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Mr. Chairman, this is a matter about which, I think, when generally people - whether they knew Shri Rajan Pillai from close quarters or who had only heard about him - came to know about the manner in which he died, everyone felt unhappy about what had happened. A person is ill and if he dies in custody, it is really a custodial death. In fact, custodial death has not been referred or defined merely by saying `when a person dies in police custody'. Even when he dies in the custody which is judicial custody, it is a custodial death.
So, this case of custodial death also caused anxiety and unhappiness throughout. As was just now mentioned, Shri Khurana was the Chief Minister of Delhi at that time and he promptly appointed a Commission under the Commission of Inquiry Act. Justice Leila Seth is a very reputed judge.
SHRI MOHAN SINGH (DEORIA):.* SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR):...* SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Sir, I wish this comment should not be there, because this is not correct. (Interruptions) सभापति महोदय : कृपया बैठे-बैठे कमेन्टस न करें।
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: So, when the Commission gave its Report, there have been questions put to me in this regard, even in this Session in which I have always said that the Delhi Government has accepted the Commission's Report and taken all necessary steps in pursuance of the recommendations of the Commission, whether in respect of the inadequacy of medical attention or irresponsibility of any doctors who have been responsible or systemic changes in the whole structure, so that a thing like this does not happen in future.
Today's Half-an-hour Discussion has been principally focussed on the conspiracy angle, because there has been a suspicion, there has been an allegation that it was not just a criminal negligence on the part of the jail authorities or of the medical authorities that this took place, but it was deliberate design to kill Shri Rajan Pillai and it was a conspiracy. Shri Premchandran said that the conspiracy angle was not there in the terms of reference and, therefore, it could not be probed. I had tried to probe it and I find that even though it was not there, an advertisement was given on the ___________________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair part of the Commission that if anyone knows that there is a conspiracy, please report to us. The wife of Shri Rajan Pillai was asked to furnish evidence, if any. She said that she would, but later on she said that it was not possible for her to name any conspirator. It is as a result of this that the Commission did not take the plea that this term of reference was not within its purview. But it said that it had no evidence to prove a conspiracy. So, it did not close the issue on the question of conspiracy on the ground that it was not within the terms of reference. They said that they had no evidence and even today, I would think that if anyone were to ask me, I would say that no evidence has been forthcoming on the basis of which a conspiracy can be alleged that it was a deliberate design to kill him, because he was at such a high place or he was such an outstanding person who had become the Chairman of a multinational company.
But, on the question of his death, this is what Justice Leila Seth Commission says:
"There is no doubt that Mr. Rajan Pillai was a sick man, having a chronic disease like cirrhosis of the liver. He had two life threatening episodes in 1992 and 10 sclera therapies till March, 1995. As to how many years he would have survived is a moot point, specially as he continued to drink. But he certainly was entitled to proper medical treatment and it was the duty of the State to have ensured that it was made available since he was in custody. Unfortunately, both Dr. Venkatasubbaiah and Dr. Hira Lal, the two doctors in Central Jail, Tihar, New Delhi, who examined him, were casual and careless in the performance of their professional duty as outlined earlier. Their negligence eventually resulted in giving him hardly any chance of survival."
I do not think that any Commission can be more denunciatory of the medical treatment given to him than this, and it is in pursuance of this that action had been taken against one or, perhaps, both. But what is more important is that today, I had just been told, that the whole systemic changes have come about in so far as giving medical treatment to prisoners is concerned.
A very large number of doctors had been appointed in the Tihar Jail which was many times more than what were there before this tragedy took place. There is 24-hour attendance. I do not want to go into the details of the arrangements that have been made. In fact, at that time, there were 16 doctors and nine paramedics. Today, there are 75 doctors and 125 paramedics... (Interruptions). He was there about one and a half to two years back. The number of prisoners certainly goes on increasing but not to this extent.
There is a chapter in the report on initial medical treatment which says that there was a failure to have initial medical examination of Shri Rajan Pillai. The initial medical examination has now been made imperative for all prisoners on admission. Apart from that, system of Senior Medical Officer OPD, all medicines to all prisoners, etc. all these systemic changes have come about. It is this tragedy that has egged on and goaded the Delhi Government to take all these steps. However, in view of the slight apprehensions that have been expressed by several hon. Members, I would also like to personally assure myself that all that was necessary had been done. Therefore, I would like to have a discussion on this matter with the Delhi Government and find out further whether there is any particular aspect in so far as the treatment of Rajan Pillai is concerned, that may not have been touched by the Leila Seth Commission Report. I would certainly like to find out and see what can be done about it.
Normally, it is not possible for me to go over a Commission. So far as the Commission's work is concerned, it has ended. The Delhi Government has accepted its report. But I am aware that this particular episode has caused concern in several quarters. Many MPs personally approached me and I said that informally whatever can be done without, in any way, violating the established conventions and the law I would certainly do.
------ सभापति महोदय : आधे घंटे की चर्चा समाप्त होती है। अब नियम १९३ के अधीन चर्चा शुरू होती है।
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): Sir, it is 6.43 p.m. How long will this House continue? Let us know this. If we discuss such an important matter at this time, it will really amount to scuttling this discussion. There are so many speakers who want to speak. I do not intend to disturb the proceedings of the House... (Interruptions) सभापति महोदय : आम तौर से दो घंटे की बहस होती है।
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): I have been listening to the discussion that has been going on about how do we schedule our programme. I could see that several Members were very particular to see that the issue of Deportation of Bangladeshis from Maharashtra be taken up. Shri Ram Vilas Paswan has been keen to see that the Discussion on SCs and STs also takes place in a proper manner and it is not disposed of lightly. At the same time, Prof. Kurien says that instead of starting the Discussion on Jain Commission Report at 11 o' clock, we decided to start it at 2 o' clock. At that point of time even though Shri Madan Lal Khurana kept on pointing out that there will be certain Bills like MPs Salaries and Allowances Bill which are to be disposed of my suggestion is that if Prof. Kurien and Shri Ram Vilas Paswan agree on either of these two discussions under Rule 193, namely, Discussions SCs and STs, and deportation can be taken up in the following way.
We could have one of them tomorrow immediately after the Prime Minister's reply and another one day after tomorrow at 11 o'clock. This is how I would suggest. But that would be a slight contraction of the time available for discussing the Jain Commission's Report. Therefore, I have addressed this question or suggestion to Prof. Kurien, Shri Ram Vilas Paswan and Shri Somnath Chatterjee. रामविलास जी, यदि आपका विषय कल ले लिया जाए तो कया यह ठीक रहेगा? श्री राम विलास पासवान (हाजीपुर) : कल मेरा हो जाए और परसों इनका हो जाए।
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA (BANKURA): Sir, tomorrow, we will take up the discussion regarding deportation under Rule 193, and day after tomorrow, we will take up the other one.
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Frankly speaking, both are important for me. श्री राम विलास पासवान : मैं सीरियली करने को कह रहा हूं। जो निष्कासन का मामला था, वह दुर्गा पूजा तक रुक गया है। इसलिए मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि यदि इसपर डिस्कशन होती रहे तो उस पर कल कर लेंगे। लेकिन शैडयूल्ड कास्टस और शैडयूल्ड ट्राईब्स का मामला ऑलरैडी प्रॉयरिटी लिस्ट में था। ऐसा सिगनल नहीं जाना चाहिए कि हम उस मामले को गंभीरता से नहीं ले रहे हैं। इसलिए मैंने कहा कि आप कल उसे ले लीजिए और परसों ११.०० बजे महाराष्ट्र वाला मामला ले लीजिए, उसमें कया दिककत है।
PROF. P.J. KURIEN :Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am really pained to hear the suggestion that the discussion on the Jain Commission's Report, which deals with the tragic assassination of our leader, late Rajiv Gandhi, can be postponed.
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: No. In the other House, the discussion is already on. सभापति महोदय :पोस्टपोन नहीं कहा, उनका सुझाव है कि विवासन वाला मामला परसों ले लिया जाए। श्री बसुदेव आचार्य : उसे परसों नहीं, कल लिया जाए और शैडयूल्ड कास्टस और शैडयूल्ड ट्राईब्स वाले मामले को भी कल लिया जाए।
PROF. P.J. KURIEN :Shri Acharia, let me complete. Please do not try to dictate like this. I am not going to reveal what had happened in the B.A.C., but when the leaders of all the parties who attended the B.A.C. meeting agreed, the number of sittings of the House was extended in order to facilitate a discussion for two days. The decision was to allot two full days for the discussion on the Jain Commission's Report. (Interruptions) Please do not be impatient. Then, instead of two days, it was decided that it would be reduced to one-and-a-half days. If the present proposal is accepted, then it means only one day will be available for the discussion because we would be taking it up in the afternoon on these two days. That is why, I beg to differ.
I would suggest that it should be started tomorrow at 2 p.m., and we cannot compromise with it. On the 5th, we should have a full day discussion. Within this time, you can complete the business in regard to the other two items. I have no objection if you take up any one of these two subjects first. I know that both subjects are very important.
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