Lok Sabha Debates
Demand To Set Up A Joint Parliamentary Committee (Jpc) To Probe The Dismissal Of ... on 16 March, 1999
Title: Demand to set up a Joint Parliamentary Committee (JPC) to probe the dismissal of former Naval Chief, Shri Vishnu Bhagwat. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We have important business today. If the House agrees, we can dispose of the lunch hour today. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I wanted to make an announcement. Before that all of you stood up. As the House has important business today, we can dispose of lunch if the House agrees to that. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI KAMAL NATH (CHHINDWARA): You must hear us.... (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: So, we will dispense with the Lunch Hour.
... (व्यवधान) श्री विजय गोयल (चांदनी चौक): महोदय, कांग्रेस के एक सदस्य ने फर्जी मतदान किया था, उसका कया हुआ? ... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Did I give you the permission?
... (Interruptions)
MR.DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am on my legs. You are a senior Member. Please sit down. A number of items are to be taken. If the Members allow me to conduct the business in order, we will hear everybody. ... (व्यवधान) श्री मोहन रावले (मुम्बई दक्षिण-मध्य) : महोदय, मेरे प्रविलेज मोशन का कया हुआ? ... (व्यवधान)गिरधारी लाल भार्गव जी हाउस कमेटी के चेयरमैन हैं।
... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मोहन रावले जी, अगर आप इस तरह बात करेंगे तो मैं आपको बोलने का चांस नहीं दूंगा। ... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will give you the floor. You will get a chance but not like this. _____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
... (Interruptions) श्री मोहन रावले : महोदय, मैंने प्रविलेज मोशन दिया हुआ है। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मैंने आपको कहा है कि मैं आपकी बात सुनूंगा। ऐसे कैसे होगा? I will hear you.
SHRI R. MUTHIAH (PERIYAKULAM): Sir, I wish to speak about the atrocities on women.... (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, I will give you the floor. Let me conduct the House in an orderly way. Shri Rawale, your notice regarding the Privilege Motion has not reached me. I will consider it when I receive it. ... (व्यवधान) श्री मोहन रावले : महोदय, मैंने पांच मार्च को दिया था, तीन सप्ताह हो गए हैं। ... (व्यवधान)उस समय आप ही चेयर पर बैठे थे।
... (व्यवधान) श्री विजय गोयल : महोदय, बिहार में राष्ट्रपति शासन पर जब मतदान हुआ था, ... (व्यवधान) श्री मोहन रावले : महोदय, मैंने प्रविलेज मोशन दिया हुआ है। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप उसको पहले मेरे पास पहुंचने तो दो। ... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपका प्रविलेज मोशन जब मेरे पास पहुंचेगा, उसके बाद ही मैं कंसीडर करूंगा। ... (व्यवधान) श्री मोहन रावले : महोदय, मैंने दिया हुआ है।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is not the way. I have told you that I will consider it when I receive it. Please resume your seat. I have given the floor to Shri Rajesh Pilot. ... (Interruptions)
_____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपका प्रविलेज मोशन जब मेरे पास पहुंच जाएगा, उसके बाद ही मैं आपको बोलने का मौका दूंगा। ... (व्यवधान) श्री मोहन रावले : महोदय, मैंने प्रविलेज मोशन दिया हुआ है। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मैंने आपको कहा है कि जब आपका प्रविलेज मोशन आ जाएगा तो कंसीडर करूंगा। ... (व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, I will give you the floor.
DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Sir, you said that you will allow me. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You will get a chance. Let there be order in the House. How can everybody talk like this? DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I am not everybody.... (Interruptions) I sought your permission to speak but you are now giving the floor to Shri Muthiah.... (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: How can I hear when all of you are talking? I have told Shri Muthiah that I will give him the floor. I have called Shri Rajesh Pilot.
... (Interruptions)
everything, it will set a bad precedent... (Interruptions).
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is your House. You can discuss anything. The only thing is that, it should be within the framework of the rules... (Interruptions) DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Why is he afraid? Is he responsible for this?... (Interruptions) श्री विजय गोयल : सर, आप मुझे चांस देंगे। _____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded. उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : इस तरह से होगा तो नहीं दूंगा।
SHRI RAJESH PILOT (DAUSA): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I raise this point with a very heavy heart and I am as heavy at heart as all my colleagues would be because we always keep the Defence Forces in very high esteem. Normally, we do not bring out things relating to the Defence Services. But the things have gone beyond limit. Some of my colleagues including Shri Kamal Nath and I have given a notice ten days back under Rule 184. We had been requesting the Government that let us have a discussion. I am not saying that you discuss the security aspects here. If you feel that it is a matter relating to national security -the hon. Speaker is here and all our colleagues here are responsible -- we will avoid that. The Government has agreed last time that we have nothing to hide and we would like to discuss it. But the water has flown much beyond that. Admiral Bhagwat has given an affidavit in the Court on 14th. He has reflected many things which are hurting any responsible citizen. Sir, day before yesterday, I read one of the notes and found that he has been granted pension also. The same Government has said that he has been dismissed. I had been in services and I know if anybody is dismissed by the Government or the Army, he does not get a pension. This Government has given a pension to him in February. It means, there is something in stinking the whole affair. This nation the right has to know about it ... (Interruptions) DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : What about LTTE ship that was allowed to go? It is in today's Hindustan Times.... (Interruptions) श्री विजय गोयल : इस पर आज स्पीकर साहब की मीटिंग थी, अब ये सदन का टाइम खराब कर रहे हैं। SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Sir, the institution has been totally damaged. He has written in his affidavit that he was told by the Prime Minister and his Principal Secretary, "please do not tell this information to the Defence Minister". He has been told this. He is saying on record that when Pokhran took place, he was told not to inform the Defence Minister... (Interruptions). Day before yesterday, Shri Guruswamy said that Shri Advani was not aware of till 15 minutes before the explosion. Is this the Government which this country deserve? The Defence Minister is told that you do not tell the Chief of Air, Army and Naval Staff about this. How can those Chiefs work under the Defence Minister? If the Prime Minister has no confidence in the Defence Minister, Shri George Fernandes should resign and come out of the Government ... (Interruptions). The affidavit says that there is a needle of suspicion about some sort of corruption in the deals. That is also there in the affidavit. We had demanded a JPC. The Home Minister is here and my request to him would be to have a JPC. We do not mind JPC in-camera. You have it in-camera. But please accept the JPC so that the nation is aware of what is happening... (Interruptions). श्री विजय गोयल : कांग्रेस करप्शन की बात न करे, भ्रष्टाचार की बात न करे। ... (व्यवधान) ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Chacko, do you not want him to react?
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER; Dr. Subbarami Reddy, please take your seat. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am on my legs, Mr. Acharia.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Kamal Nath, please sit down. He is going to reply. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Jos, I have given the floor to him to react. Do you not want to hear him? ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please resume your seats. I am on my legs.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: What is this? Do you not want to hear him?
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please resume your seats? Order please. I cannot tolerate this. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Pilot, I had allowed you to speak but they should behave themselves. This is very unfair. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will not allow you.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: What is this? Will you behave yourselves? I am on my legs. Mr. Jos, you were the Speaker of Kerala Assembly. When I am on my legs, you cannot stand. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you resume your seats? I would ask him whether he wants to react or not. Mr. Kawade, I would tell you that you are unbecoming of a Member. ... (Interruptions)
____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No; I will not hear you.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Meena, this not the way.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chacko, please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please resume your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chacko, you are a responsible Member. This is not the way. After giving the floor to Shri Rajesh Pilot and after hearing him, the hon. Home Minister wants to react. But you do not allow him to speak even. This is unfair on your part. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is not the way. This is too much.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ahamed, he wants to react on behalf of the Government. He can very well do it. There is no contention on that. He can represent the Government. He is a Minister in the Government. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I seek the cooperation of the Chief Whip of the Congress Party. This is not the way to behave. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chacko, this is very unfair on your part. I heard your Member and when the Home Minister is reacting, you are not even allowing him to speak. He is a representative of the Government. This is not the way how you have to behave. ... (Interruptions)
_____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ahamed, he is representing the Government. He can represent the Government. He is the Home Minister of India. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Jos, if you are not satisfied with his response, then you can ask. But you are not allowing him to speak. This is very unfair. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will have to name you, if you continue to do like this. This is too much. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please go to your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: May I ask the Chief Whip to convey to the Members to let him speak? Why are they behaving like this? ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Prof. Kurien, your own Member has spoken. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I gave the floor to him.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Minister is prepared to reply. Your Members are not allowing him to reply. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Your Members are not prepared to hear him. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You are wasting the time of the House.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing is going on record. I have already said it. (Interruptions) ... (Not recorded) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Prof. Kurien, when your Members get exhausted, please let us know. Then, I will ask the hon. Minister to speak. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing is going on record.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you allow him now? Are you satisfied? Now, the hon. Minister. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: If you interrupt him in-between, I will take a serious view of it. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Virendra Singh, please sit down.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order please.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already said nothing will go on record. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI P.C. CHACKO (IDUKKI): Sir, we want your protection.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chacko, now, I need your protection here. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You can shout but nothing is going on record. (Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, the hon. Minister.
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Sir, are you sure, there will be no interruptions? MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I cannot be sure.
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Sir, you are the custodian of the House, not I.... (Interruptions) Still he is unable to contain himself. Sir, if they want it, you better adjourn the House ... (Interruptions) _____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Over?
... (Interruptions)
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Sir, if they do not want it, you adjourn the House. SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Sir, I understand the seriousness.... (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, I am calling Dr. Subramanian Swamy.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing has gone on record.
... (Interruptions)
DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Mr. Deputy-Speaker... (Interruptions) SHRI A.C. JOS (MUKUNDAPURAM): Sir... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Jos, do you want to learn elementary knowledge of rules? You were the Speaker of the Kerala Assembly. When the Chair is on his legs, you should sit down. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: My dear friend, Shri Jos, you must understand my plight here. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI P.C. CHACKO :Sir, why can you not direct them?
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I cannot direct them. Shri Chacko, you are a senior Member. You know that the Chair cannot direct them. SHRI P.C. CHACKO : Sir, you have every right to do that.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, the hon. Minister.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BHUBANESWAR KALITA (GUWAHATI): Sir... (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am warning you. I will take serious action against you. Prof. Kurien, you have to control your Members. ... (Interruptions)
> ग्ृाह मंत्री (श्री लाल कृष्ण आडवाणी): उपाध्यक्ष जी, जिस समय आपने श्री राजेश पायलट को सदन को संबोधित करने के लिए कहा था उस समय मुझे जानकारी नहीं थी कि कया विषय है और इसीलिए हम शान्ित से सुनते रहे। मुझे उनकी बातों का जवाब नहीं देना है कयोंकि जिनका काम है, प्रतिरक्षा मंत्री उसके बारे में जब भी कहना चाहेंगे, कहेंगे, लेकिन सदन को इस बात की जानकारी होनी चाहिए और है कि अध्यक्ष जी ने इसी विषय पर चर्चा हो कि न हो, और यदि हो, तो किस रूप में हो, इस पर विचार करने के लिए दोनों सदनों की एक स्थाई समति बनाई है और वह समति दो दिन पहले भी मिली और आज भी प्रात:काल मिली। मैं तो केवल बीच में से उठकर आया कयोंकि प्रश्नोत्तर काल में मेरे प्रश्न थे, इसीलिए मैं चला आया। लेकिन बाद में मुझे बताया गया है कि उसकी चर्चा अभी भी जारी है और कल प्रात:काल फिर ९ बजे वह समति मिलेगी। जब तक उसका निर्णय नहीं होता, तब तक कोई एक सदस्य किसी समय अचानक सदन में उठकर खड़ा होकर कोई बात कहें कया यह उचित है? मेरा प्रश्न सिर्फ यही था। मुझे राजेश पायलट जी की बातों का कोई जवाब नहीं देना था कयोंकि जवाब देने के अधिकारी प्रतिरक्षा मंत्री महोदय हैं और जब कोई चर्चा होगी तो वे उसका उचित जवाब देंगे। मैं तो केवल यह पूछने के लिए खड़ा हुआ कि कया यह निर्णय हो गया है कि इस विषय को इस प्रकार से सदन में उठाया जाए? अगर निर्णय हो गया है, तो मुझे कुछ नहीं कहना है। मुझे बस इतना ही कहना है। ... (व्यवधान) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : निर्णय नहीं हुआ है। उस पर चर्चा चल रही है। यह जीरो आवर था। इसमें उन्होंने मेंशन किया है। श्री आर. मुधैया। ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI R. MUTHIAH (PERIYAKULAM): Mr. Deputy-Speaker Sir, atrocities on women and harassment are increasing day by day in the State of Tamil Nadu. Why an all such things are happening The simple reason is... (Interruptions)MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please go back to your seats. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you go back to your seat first?
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please resume your seats? I want to say something. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please ask your Members to go back to their seats. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Rajo Singh, please go back to your seat. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please go back to your seats, I am on my legs. ... (Interruptions)
12.40 hrs (At this stage, Dr. Shakeel Ahmad and some other hon. Members came and stood on the floor near the Table.) ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please go back to your seats.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will hear you. Please go back to your seats. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: This matter is still in the discussion stage. There are other Members who want to raise their matters. You are doing harm to the parliamentary democracy. Do not do like this. This is not fair on your part. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please go back to your seats.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would request the Chief Whip of the Congress Party, Prof. P.J. Kurien, to ask his Members to go back to their seats. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House stands adjourned to meet again at 2 p.m. 12.43 hrs The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Fourteen of the Clock.
14.01 hrs The Lok Sabha re-assembled after at one minute past Fourteen of the Clock.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair) >SHRI P.C. CHACKO (IDUKKI): Mr. Speaker, Sir, we had raised a very serious issue in the morning. We want a ruling from you. MR. SPEAKER: Calling Attention. Shri Basu Deb Acharia.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA (BANKURA): I call the attention of the Minister.... (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: This is not `Zero Hour'. You can raise it tomorrow, not now. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI R. MUTHIAH (PERIYAKULAM): I have been called. I was speaking. MR. SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, I will hear you. Please take your seat. SHRI P.C. CHACKO : This morning an issue was raised. It is not an ordinary issue. We want to cooperate with the Chair and so whatever you say, we will go by that. This matter concerns the defence of this country, a very serious matter where the Prime Minister should come to the House and reply to the matter raised. In spite of the fact that there was a notice neither the Minister of Defence nor the Prime Minister was present in the House. A casual reply from a Minister will not solve the problem. Whatever happens in this Parliament if we sideline the issue it will be an unfortunate reflection on this Parliament. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chacko, you are also aware of this. In the morning also we had a meeting with all the leaders. Tomorrow morning also there is a meeting when the hon. leaders are going to decide the matter. SHRI P.C. CHACKO : This issue is being raised for the last four days. There are only two days and the House is going to adjourn. MR. SPEAKER: Please cooperate. You can raise the matter tomorrow. Tomorrow it will be finalised. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I have heard your submission also. Please sit down. डा. शकील अहमद (मधुबनी) : मीटिंग में टालने की बात हो रही है। आधी मीटिंग आज थी, आधी कल होगी। आपको निर्णय करना है कि इस पर कया फैसला करना है ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI R. MUTHIAH (PERIYAKULAM): At the time of the adjournment I was speaking. I was allowed to speak on a very important matter. MR. SPEAKER: What is your submission?
SHRI R. MUTHIAH : In the State of Tamil Nadu atrocities on women are increasing day by day. MR. SPEAKER: This is not `Zero Hour'. Please understand. I will not allow it. This will not go on record.
(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: You have been one of the Presiding Officers previously. This cannot be admitted in the House. Please understand. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.
(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded) MR. SPEAKER: This is not good. Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia.
Dr. Subramanian Swamy, you are a senior Member. How can we allow like this? ... (Interruptions)
__________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except what Shri Basu Deb Acharia says. (Interruptions) * MR. SPEAKER: Shri V. Sathiamoorthy, please take your seat. Please understand that this is not the proper way to represent a matter in the House. What is this? First, you must know the procedure. You cannot raise everything in the House. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except what Shri Basu Deb Acharia says. DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Hon. Minister of Home Affairs should make a statement....(Interruptions). MR. SPEAKER: Do not come to the podium. Please take your seat. Shri Gopal, first you please resume your seat. Shri Sathiamoorthy, you please talk properly. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) * THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Sir, it is a matter pertaining to a State. But I will find out because the Members have raised the matter. I will find out what are the facts. _____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.