Lok Sabha Debates
Motion Of Thanks On The President'S Address Moved By Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra And ... on 26 October, 1999
Title: Motion of Thanks on the President"" s Address moved by Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra and seconded by Shri Viako, assembled together on 25th October, 1999.
12.19 hrs. SHRI VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA (SOUTH DELHI) I beg to move:
"That an Address be presented to the President in the following terms:-
"That the Members of the Lok Sabha assembled in this Session are deeply grateful to the President for the Address which he has been pleased to deliver to both Houses of Parliament assembled together on October 25, 1999." अध्यक्ष महोदय, १३वीं लोक सभा का गठन हुआ और गठन के उपरान्त परम्परा व नियमों के अनुसार राष्ट्रपति जी ने दोनों सदनों की संयुकत बैठक को सम्बोधित किया है। राष्ट्रपति जी के अभिभाषण पर धन्यवाद का प्रस्ताव पेश करने का सौभाग्य मुझे प्राप्त हुआ है। इससे पहले कि राष्ट्रपति जी ने जो बातें कहीं हैं, उन पर चर्चा प्रारम्भ की जाए, स्वाभाविक रूप में जो यह लोक सभा बनी है इसका जनादेश कया है, उस जनादेश के बारे में मैं कुछ बातों का उल्लेख करना चाहता हूं। देश की सौ करोड़ से अधिक जनता ने अपना पहला जनादेश यह दिया है कि वह चमत्कारिक व्यकितत्व के धनी श्री अटल बिहारी वाजपेयी जी को देश का प्रधान मंत्री देखना चाहती थी, अध्यक्ष महोदय, यहां केन्द्र और प्रदेश सरकारों में आमतौर पर इनकम्बैंसी फैकटर होता है। उसके विरोध में जनादेश दिया जाता है, परन्तु वाजपेयी जी की सरकार के १३ महीने के काम की सराहना के आधार पर यह जनादेश दिया है कि वे दोबारा प्रधान मंत्री बनें और उनकी सरकार दुबारा यहां पर शासन में आए। अध्यक्ष महोदय, कारगिल युद्ध को जिस प्रकार से वाजपेयी सरकार ने जीता और उसमें जिस प्रकार से पाकिस्तान की सेना को सीमा पार खदेड़ा, यह जनादेश उसके पक्ष में भी है। पिछले युद्धों में चाहे वह १९४७ का युद्ध हो या १९६२. १९६५ या १९७१ का युद्ध हो, उनमें हमने जो कुछ प्राप्त किया, जो कुछ हम जीते, वह हमने संधि की मेज पर आकर गंवा दिया। १९४७ में देश का एकतिलाई कश्मीर पाकिस्तान में रह गया। १९६२ में ३८००० वर्ग किलौमीटर हमारी जमीन चीन ने हड़प ली। १९७१ में बिना कोई शर्त लगाए, बिना उनसे लखित में लिए, ९०००० सैनिक पाकिस्तान को वापस कर दिए। इस बार वाजपेयी जी की सरकार के होते हुए कारगिल युद्ध में एक इंच भूमि भी हिन्दुस्तान की नहीं गंवाई और पाकिस्तान को हिन्दुस्तान की सीमा से बाहर खदेड़ दिया गया। केवल इतना ही नहीं सारी दुनिया का जनमत भी पहली बार भारत के पक्ष में गया। यह जनादेश सैनिक विजय और कूटनीतिक विजय, दोनों प्रकार की विजय प्राप्त करने के लिए, प्राप्त हुआ जनादेश है। अध्यक्ष महोदय, जहां यह जनादेश पॉजीटिव जनादेश है वहां देश की जनता ने कुछ बातों के लिए निगेटिव जनादेश भी दिया, कुछ बातों को नकारा भी है। सबसे पहले जिस ढंग से कारगिल की लड़ाई के समय में भारतीय सेनाओं का मनोबल गिराने के लिए कांग्रेस ने जो आलोचनाएं कीं, जो झूठे आरोप लगाए, उसके विरोध में दिया गया यह जनादेश है। जिस ढंग से कांग्रेस ने पदलिप्सा के अंदर केवल किसी प्रकार से सरकार में आने के लिए, अच्छी भली चलती हुई सरकार को गिराया। यह जनादेश उसके खिलाफ भी है। उस समय उन्होंने राष्ट्रपति के पास जाकर कहा कि २७२ सांसद उनके पास हैं और २७२ सांसदों का उनके समक्ष झूठा दस्तावेज पेश किया गया, यह जनादेश उसके भी खिलाफ है। मैं यहां यह भी कहना चाहूंगा कि कांग्रेस पार्टी ने जिस प्रकार से देश में वंशवाद लागू करने, परिवारवाद लागू करने का प्रयास किया, यह जनादेश उसको भी नकारता है और इस देश में जनतंत्र और वंशवाद दोनों साथ-साथ नहीं चल सकते, इस बात को सिद्ध करता है। अध्यक्ष महोदय, यह आश्चर्य की बात है कि ११४ वर्ष पुरानी कांग्रेस पार्टी को इस बार ११४ सीटें भी नहीं मिलीं और इन्होंने न तो सत्ता में रहते हुए और न विपक्ष में रहते हुए इस बात से सबक सीखा। जब १९७७ में देश में इमर्जैन्सी के बाद चुनाव हुए और उस समय सारे उत्तर भारत में एक सीट भी नहीं अई थी, उस समय भी पूरे देश में कांग्रेस को १५४ सीटें प्राप्त हुई थीं और जब नरसिंह राव जी थे तब १४१ सीटें प्राप्त हुईं। नरसिंह राव जी के बाद १४० सीटें मिलीं। नरसिंह राव जी को हटा दिया गया। उसके बाद केसरी जी को भी हटा दिया गया। उसके बाद अब केवल ११२ सीटें आईं हैं। इस बार कांग्रेस की जो दुर्दशा हुई है उससे कांग्रेस ने कोई सबक नहीं लिया और वह बराबर अपनी स्िथति को बिगाड़ती जा रही है। इस समय देश में उसकी जो दुर्दशा हुई है उसको वह अच्छी प्रकार से देख सकती है। अध्यक्ष महोदय, ११२ सीटें आने के बाद भी राष्ट्रपति महोदय ने अपने अभिभाषण में भ्रष्टाचार का विरोध करने का उल्लेख किया है। राष्ट्रपति जी ने भ्रष्टाचार के विरोध का उल्लेख करते हुए उसके उन्मूलन की सरकार की प्रतिबद्धता को सामने लाने की जो बात कही है उसमें उन्होंने लोकपाल को लाने की बात कही है। बारह साल से लोकपाल बिल सामने नहीं आ पा रहा है। सरकार ने घोषणा की है कि वह लोकपाल बिल लायेंगे और उसमें प्रधान मंत्री तथा सारे मंत्रियों को शामिल किया जायेगा। अध्यक्ष महोदय, कांग्रेस पार्टी हमेशा यह प्रयास करती रही है कि लोकपाल बिल के अंदर प्रधान मंत्री को न लाया जाये। हमने इस बात को रखकर लोकपाल बिल को लाने की घोषणा की और हम आशा करते हैं कि कम से कम इस बार उसे रोकने की कोशिश नहीं की जायेगी। अब यहां पर बोफोर्स के मामले पर बहुत बहस की गई, बोफोर्स के मामले में बहुत कुछ कहा गया। १३ साल के बाद यह पर्दाफाश हुआ। मुझे आश्चर्य हुआ जब माधव राव सिंधिया तथा दूसरे अन्य लोगों ने यह कहा कि इसमें से राजीव गांधी का नाम इसलिए निकाल दिया जाये कयोंकि वे प्रधान मंत्री रहे, ओपोजिशन के लीडर रहे, इस सदन के नेता रहे।... (व्यवधान)
मैं आपसे यह कहना चाहता हूं कि यहां पर और लोग भी प्रधान मंत्री रहे, सदन के नेता रहे हैं। जब उन पर चार्जशीट लगी तो उस समय कांग्रेस पार्टी का कोई भी आदमी नहीं बोला। किसी कांग्रेस के सदस्य ने हाउस के अंदर आवाज नहीं उठाई। श्री नरसिंह राव जी के ऊपर जब चार्जशीट लगी, उस वकत वे प्रधान मंत्री भी थे और सदन के नेता भी थे लेकिन उस समय कोई भी कांग्रेस का नेता नहीं बोला, कोई कांग्रेस का आदमी नहीं बोला। किसी भी कांग्रेसी ने इसके लिए हाउस को रोकने की कोशिश नहीं की।(व्यवधान)SHRI JAGMEET SINGH BRAR (FARIDKOT): Please cross-check. आप भूल रहे हैं।MR. SPEAKER: Shri Malhotra, please address the Chair. श्री विलास मुत्तेमवार (नागपुर): जब उन पर चार्जशीट लगी तब वह हाउस में मैम्बर थे और अपनी बात को डिफैंड कर सकते थे। यहां मुद्दा यह है कि श्री राजीव गांधी जी अपनी बात को डिफैंड नहीं कर सकते। ... (व्यवधान) श्री विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : अध्यक्ष महोदय, मैं यह कह रहा था कि केसरी जी ... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप चेयर को एड़ेस कीजिए।... (व्यवधान) श्री विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : अभी केसरी जी ने बड़े दुख के साथ कहा कि जब उन पर चार्ज लगे तब कांग्रेस का कोई भी व्यकित उनको डिफैंड करने के लिए नहीं आया। मैं कहना चाहता था कि चापलूसी की भी कोई सीमा हो सकती है।... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: No running commentry please.
... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY (KHAMMAM): Till now whatever he has spoken, he has spoken about the Congress Party. अपनी पार्टी के बारे में बात करें। श्री विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा: मैं कह रहा हूं कि भ्रष्टाचार उन्मूलन... (व्यवधान)
भ्रष्टाचार को समाप्त करने के लिए लोकपाल बिल लाया जायेगा। भ्रष्टाचार से कोई समझौता नहीं किया जायेगा और मैं उसी आधार पर कह रहा हं कि बारहवीं लोक सभा चलती रह सकती थी।
... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप चेयर को एड़ेस कीजिए। श्री विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : मैंने आपसे ही कहा है कि बारहवीं लोकसभा, श्री अटल बिहारी वाजपेयी की सरकार अगर भ्रष्टाचार से समझौता कर लेती और भ्रष्टाचार से समझौता करके जयललिता के सारे केस वापस ले लेती तो बारहवीं लोक सभा चलती रह सकती थी। हमने बारहवीं लोक सभा के अंदर समझौता नहीं किया और तेरहवीं लोक सभा में भी भ्रष्टाचार से कोई समझौता नहीं किया जायेगा। यह सरकार हम चलायेंगे। पूरे पांच साल यह सरकार चलेगी और उसके लिए किसी भी प्रकार के भ्रष्टाचार से समझौता करने का सवाल नहीं है। श्री अरूण जेटली जी ने साफ तौर पर कहा है कि किसका नाम निकाला जाये या न निकाला जाये, यह मांग सरकार से करने की नहीं है। वे न्यायालय में जाकर इसकी कोशिश कर सकते हैं। अध्यक्ष महोदय, यहां पर एक सवाल डीजल की कीमतों में बढ़ोत्तरी के संबंध में आ रहा है। उसमें बहस होगी और उस बहस के अंदर सब बातें की जायेंगी परन्तु डीजल की कीमतें कया हमने बढ़ाई हैं? डीजल की कीमतें बढ़ाने का फैसला अंतर्राष्ट्रीय कीमतों के साथ जोड़ा जाये, यह फैसला उस समय हुआ जब ये सब लोग १९९७ में सरकार को समर्थन दे रहे थे।... (व्यवधान) श्री अखिलेश सिंह (महाराजगंज): मेरा एक व्यवस्था का प्रश्न है। MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Shri Malhotra, please continue your speech. श्री अखिलेश सिंह : जब अंतर्राष्ट्रीय बाजार में डीजल की कीमतें बढ़ी थीं तभी इन्होंने डीजल के दाम कयों नहीं बढ़ाये?... (व्यवधान)
अगर उस समय बढ़ा दिये होते तो आज यह सत्ता में न बैठे होते, इधर बैठे होते।
... (व्यवधान)
इस स्िथति को भी स्पष्ट करें। श्री विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : अध्यक्ष महोदय, मैं यह कह रहा था कि १.९.१९९७ को जो सरकार थी और जिस सरकार को कांग्रेस भी समर्थन दे रही थी, कम्युनिस्ट पार्टी भी समर्थन दे रही थी, ये सब भाई भी समर्थन दे रहे थे, उसने यह फैसला किया और उसके मुताबिक कीमतें बढ़ीं। उसके आधार पर आज आलोचना करना कहां तक उचित है, आखिर इतनी ईमानदारी चाहिए कि वहां जो फैसला हुआ, उसका विरोध न करें। ड़ड्ढड्डत्थ्;ाी अखिलेश सिंह : अंतर्राष्ट्रीय बाजार में जब मूल्य बढ़े ध्यक्ष महोदय : आपको प्रोसीजर मालूम है या नहीं?.. (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप कया बात कर रहे हैं।... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप बैठ जाइए। ... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप कया बात कर रहे हैं। प्रो. विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा: डीज़ल की कीमत से बस में दो पैसे प्रति किलोमीटर का फर्क पड़ता है। दिल्ली में डी.टी.सी. पर २६ करोड़ रुपये का सालभर का बजट बढ़ता है परन्तु दिल्ली की कांग्रेस सरकार ने उस पर २६० करोड़ रुपये का बोझ लगा दिया। दो पैसे प्रति किलोमीटर की बजाए उनके ऊपर दो रुपये, चार रुपये, आठ रुपये बस का भाड़ा बढ़ा दिया। कीमतें छ: प्रतिशत बढ़ने पर इन्होंने सौ प्रतिशत बसों का किराया बढ़ा दिया। ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI KODIKUNNIL SURESH (ADOOR) : You are responsible. Your Government is responsible for this. ... (Interruptions) Why are you blaming the Delhi Government? ...(Interruptions) You have increased the price of diesel. प्रो. विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : इनके बसों में किराए बढ़ाने से दिल्ली में एक प्राईवेट बस आपरेटर को दस लाख रुपये का फायदा हुआ है और जिसके पास दस बसें हैं, उसे एक करोड़ रुपये का फायदा होगा। यहां इन्होंने इस प्रकार की स्िथति की है। यहां पर केन्द्र सरकार द्वारा डीज़ल की कीमतें बढ़ाने के बारे में बातें की जा रही हैं। राष्ट्रपति जी ने चुनाव सुधार का जिक़ किया और चुनाव के कानून में सुधार की बातें की हैं। उन्होंने पहली बात यह रखी और जिसकी कल आलोचना की गई कि लोक सभा का कार्यकाल पांच साल के लिए नश्िचत किया जाए। मुझे बड़ा आश्चर्य हुआ जब कांग्रेस के नेता ने कुछ दिन पहले कहा कि यह फासिस्ट बात है, यह तानाशाही की बात है। कल भी उपनेता ने इसकी बड़ी आलोचना की। कया पांच साल में पांच लोक सभा के चुनाव होंगे? पिछले तीन साल में तीसरा लोक सभा का चुनाव हो रहा है। कया देश में हर साल चुनाव हुआ करें? कया यहां पर कुछ लोगों की पदलिप्सा और सत्ता की भूख के कारण हर साल चुनाव में इस देश को झोंका जाए? आखिर यह कया स्िथति है? कयों नहीं इसका कार्यकाल नश्िचत होना चाहिए? यहां राज्य सभा का कार्यकाल छ: साल के लिए नश्िचत है, उसका तो कोई विरोध नहीं किया जा रहा है। मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि अगर कांग्रेस का यहां कोई व्िहप ईशू न किया जाए तो कांग्रेस का कोई मैम्बर इसके विरोध में वोट नहीं डालेगा। ... (व्यवधान) श्री विलास मुत्तमवार (नागपुर) : इस तरह डीज़ल के भाव बढ़ाते जाएंगे फिर भी आप पांच साल के लिए यहीं पर बैठे रहेंगे।... (व्यवधान)
SHRI KODIKUNNIL SURESH : You are opportunistic. What are you talking here? What is your principle? We know your principle. ...(Interruptions) Earlier you were with the A.D.M.K. Now you are with the D.M.K. Your opportunistic alliances have created the instability. ...(Interruptions) You are taking opportunistic stand. प्रो. विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : राष्ट्रपति जी ने इसका जिक़ किया कि पांच साल का कार्यकाल होना चाहिए। विदेशों में बहुत जगह ऐसा है। सरकारें बदलती रहती हैं। यहां अभी जनादेश इतना है कि यह सरकार पांच साल रहेगी। कानून लाए बिना भी यह सरकार पांच साल रहेगी, इसमें कोई संदेह नहीं है। परन्तु कार्यकाल नश्िचत होना चाहिए और औपोजीशन वाले यदि कोई नो-कौन्फीडैंस मोशन लाएं तो उसका भी कोई तरीका होना चाहिए। यह बात राष्ट्रपति जी ने अपने अभिभाषण में कही है और मैं समझता हूं कि कांग्रेस पार्टी को इससे सबक लेना चाहिए। आप यहां पर वोट ऑफ नो-कौन्फीडैंस तो ले आएं लेकिन आगे कया बनेगा, इसके बारे में कोई स्िथति न हो - इस पर विचार करने की जरूरत है। राष्ट्रपति जी ने यही बात कही है।... (व्यवधान) श्री मुलायम सिंह यादव (सम्भल) : यह कया तरीका हुआ। ये कांग्रेस का नाम लेंगे और वे बी.जे.पी. का नाम लेंगे। दोनों मिले हुए हैं। ... (व्यवधान) प्रो. विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : राष्ट्रपति जी के अभिभाषण में एक और बात का जिक़ है और वह यह है कि उन्होंने प्रॉकसी वोट के बारे में कहा। ... (व्यवधान)
सभी को मालूम है कि इस बार चुनाव में, जितने लोक सभा के सदस्य हैं, उनके यहां जो पोस्टल बैलेट आए, वे एक या दो प्रतिशत से ज्यादा नहीं आए। किसी के इलाके में तीन हजार वोट थे जो पोस्टल बैलेट से आने चाहिए लेकिन पचास या सौ वोट आए। यहां कारगिल के युद्ध में मरने वाले शहीदों के बारे में बहुत बातें की जाती हैं, उनके सम्मान की बात की जाती है। वे जवान अपना खून दे सकते हैं, वे जवान शहादत दे सकते हैं लेकिन वोट नहीं दे सकते, वे देश के भाग्य के निर्माण में शामिल नहीं हो सकते। इसलिए हमने जब यह कहा कि यहां पर प्रॉकसी वोटिंग होनी चाहिए। आप उनको अधिकार दें ताकि वे प्रॉकसी वोटिंग कर सकें। मुझे दुख है कि यहां कांग्रेस पार्टी और दूसरी कुछ पार्िटयों ने उसका विरोध किया और कहा कि प्रॉकसी वोटिंग नहीं होगी। आखिर प्रॉकसी वोटिंग में कितने लोग शामिल हैं? करीबन १० लाख सेना के लोग हैं, पैरा मलिट्री फोर्सेज़ हैं, जो न जाने कहां पर तैनात हैं। १४ दिन जो उन्हें मिलते हैं, उसके अन्दर बैलट छपने में चार दिन लग जाते हैं और जब तक उनके पास कोई चिट्ठी पहुंचती है, तब तक चुनाव समाप्त हो चुके होते हैं। अगर उनको वोट का अधिकार देना है, सरकारी कर्मचारियों को वोट का अधिकार है, लेकिन हमारी सेना के जवानों को नहीं है, पैरा मलिट्री फोर्सेज़ को नहीं है। कांग्रेस पार्टी ने सिद्धान्ततः इसका विरोध किया है। कहने लगे कि इससे जानकारियां प्राप्त हो जाएंगी, पता लग जायेगा। जो व्यकित दृष्िटविहीन हैं, अंधे हैं, वे भी वोट देते समय किसी को साथ ले जाकर उससे वोट दिलवा सकते हैं। उसका जिस पर भी भरोसा हो, पत्नी पर हो, बेटे पर हो, अपने भाई पर हो, किसी पर हो, उसे अगर वह ऑथोराइज़ कर दे और वह जाकर वोट डाले, जैसा कि इंग्लैंड में होता है, दूसरे देशों में होता है तो इस पर कयों एतराज किया गया, मुझे समझ में नहीं आता। इसलिए प्रॉकसी वोटिंग का राष्ट्रपति जी ने जिक़ किया है। यहां पर एक बात यह भी कही गई है, पहले होम मनिस्टर साहब, आडवाणी जी ने एक इन्द्रजीत गुप्ता कमेटी बनाई थी। उसने स्टेट फंडिंग ऑफ इलैकशंस के बारे में बहुत से सुझाव दिये थे। हम उसी समय चाहते थे कि शुरू में ही इसको लागू कर दिया जाये, परन्तु स्टेट फंडिंग करने के बाद फिर किसी पूंजीपति का दखल न रहे, कोई बड़ा पूंजीपति चुनाव को प्रभावित न कर सके। इसीलिए राष्ट्रपति जी ने कहा है कि मनी पावर और मसल पावर से बचाने के लिए एक विस्त्ृात चुनाव का नियम कानून लाने की जरूरत है। उसके अन्दर जो स्टेट फंडिंग की बात है, जिसका सुझाव इन्द्रजीत गुप्ता कमेटी ने दिया था और जिसमें हम सब लोग शामिल थे, कांग्रेस के मैम्बर भी शामिल थे, अगर वह उसी समय बाई आर्िडनेंस हो जाता तो बहुत अच्छा होता, परन्तु उस समय उस आर्िडनेंस का भी विरोध हुआ है। मैं चाहता हूं कि आप कम से कम आगे उसका विरोध न करें और स्टेट फंडिंग इसमें जरूर डाल दिया जाये। थ्द्य;सके अलावा यहां पर डीलमिटेशन का सवाल बड़े महत्व का है। कुछ सीटें ३० लाख की हैं, कुछ सीटें तीन लाख की हैं, कुछ सीटों पर मतों का बहुत ज्यादा फर्क पड़ गया। सन् २००१ के बाद नये सिरे से डीलमिटेशन की बात संविधान में कही हुई है, परन्तु उसकी रिपोर्ट २००३ या २००४ में आयेगी, फिर अगर डीलमिटेशन कमीशन बैठेगा, फिर दो साल, तीन साल लगेंगे तो अगले चुनाव तक भी उसे लागू कर पाना एक तरह से रह जायेगा। कम से कम डीलमिटेशन की बहुत बड़ी जरूरत है। कहीं तीन लाख, कहीं ३० लाख, कहीं कुछ, यह बात देखने की है। यह बात भी देखने की है कि जिन स्टेटस में फैमिली प्लानिंग बहुत अच्छे ढंग से किया है, उनको इसकी सजा न मिले कि उनकी सीटें उस प्रदेश में कम हो जायें और जनसंख्या के आधार पर आगे चलकर जिन स्टेटस ने फैमिली प्लानिंग नहीं किया, उनकी सीटें बढ़ जायें। यह भी विचार करने की बात है, जिसको देखने की जरूरत है। महिलाओं को आरक्षण देने की बात इसमें कह दी गई है, वह भी चुनाव सुधारों के साथ ताल्लुक रखती है। उन्हें ३३ प्रतिशत आरक्षण देने का इसमें पूरी तरह से वायदा किया गया है और राष्ट्रपति जी ने कहा है कि उन्हें ३३ प्रतिशत आरक्षण दिया जाये। परन्तु यह बात जरूर है कि रोटेशन में कारपोरेशंस में एक दिककत आ रही है। रोटेशन होने से हर बार अगली बार वही केंडीडेट वहां से चुनाव नहीं लड़ सकता, जिसके कारण कई बार उन क्षेत्रों का पूरी तरह से नर्िसंग नहीं होता। इसमें कया किया जाये, इस पर विचार करने की जरूरत है कयोंकि रोटेशन में हर केंडीडेट अगली बार वहां से नहीं लड़ पाएगा। इसलिए वह अपनी कांस्टीटवेंसी को नर्स करे या न करे, इस सवाल को इसके साथ जोड़ने की जरूरत है। राष्ट्रपति जी ने आर्िथक एजेण्डे के बारे में बहुत सी बातें हमारे सामने रखी हैं। यह बड़े गर्व का विषय है कि यहां पर अमेरिकी सैंकशंस के बावजूद, जो अमेरिका यह समझता था कि वह दुनिया में जिस पर भी सैंकशन लगा दे, उन सैंकशंस के बाद वह देश तहस-नहस हो जायेगा, लेकिन सारे अमेरिकी सैंकशंस के बाद इस देश की आर्िथक स्िथति को संभालकर रखना, जबकि एशियन टाइगर्स मलेशिया, इंडोनेशिया और थाईलैंड, कोरिया, सब आर्िथक रूप से बर्बाद हो रहे थे, आर्िथक रूप से गिरावट में जा रहे थे, उस समय भी देश की आर्िथक स्िथति को बनाये रखा गया। आज ३३ बलियन डालर का हमारे पास फॉरेन रिजर्व है। ३३ बलियन डालर का रिजर्व इससे पहले कभी नहीं था, यह रिकार्ड है। हमारा यह भी एक रिकार्ड है कि दो प्रतिशत से ज्यादा महंगाई नहीं बढ़ी। कम प्रतिशत पर महंगाई को रोका गया और महंगाई की स्िथति पर लाया गया। बहुत सी बातों का, जिनका राष्ट्रपति जी ने जिक़ किया है, वे हमारे एजेण्डे में थीं। हम उन्हें पूरा करना चाहते थे, परन्तु यहां पर सरकार गिरा दी गई। यहां एक करोड़ रोजगार एक साल में पैदा करने की बात चल रही थी, परन्तु एक करोड़ रोजगार अगर एक साल में पैदा हो जायें तब अगले १० साल में जाकर बेरोजगारी दूर होगी। दस लाख मकान, २० लाख मकान प्रति वर्ष बनाएं जिससे हर आदमी को छत मिल जाए। इसलिए हमें २० लाख मकान बनाने हैं और जिन पांच लाख गांवों में पीने का पानी नहीं है, वहां पांच सालों में पीने का पानी पहुंचाना है। ये सारी बातें हमारे आर्िथक एजेंडा में हैं, जिनका राष्ट्रपति जी ने भी उल्लेख किया है। इस देश में करीब पांच करोड़ लोग अनपढ़ हैं और सात करोड़ बच्चे स्कूल नहीं जाते। उनके लिए हमें प्राइमरी शिक्षा का प्रबन्ध करना है, प्राथमिक चकित्सा का प्रबन्ध करना है। इन मूलभूत मामलों का राष्ट्रपति जी ने भी उल्लेख किया है। अगर सरकार एक साल या छः महीने चले और उसमें भी उसको रोकने की कोशिश की जाए, लोक सभा न चलने दी जाए तो ये सब काम पूरे नहीं हो सकते। अभी यहां एक महत्वपूर्ण बिल आ रहा था, जिसमें अगले दस वषर्ों के लिए अनुसूचित जाति और जनजाति के लोगों के लिए आरक्षण बढ़ाने का प्रावधान है। अगर वह बिल पास नहीं होगा तो इन लोगों का आरक्षण बंद हो जाएगा। जब बिल पेश किया जा रहा था तो विपक्ष के लोगों ने उसको सुनना पसंद नहीं किया, शोर-शराबे के बीच वह बिल सदन में रखना पड़ा। अगर ऐसे महत्वपूर्ण बिल शोर-शराबे के बीच रखे जाएंगे ... (व्यवधान) श्री रामदास आठवले (पंढरपुर): आरक्षण बंद नहीं हो सकता, हम आरक्षण बंद नहीं होने देंगे। श्री पवन कुमार बंसल (चंडीगढ़): इधर से एक भी सदस्य नहीं बोला था। SHRI JAGMEET SINGH BRAR (FARIDKOT): Sir, I am on a point of order.
MR. SPEAKER: You have your own time to reply or rebut it. Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that you have your own time to rebut it. Please take your seat.
(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded) MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record. प्रो. विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : इस देश में सरकार के पास जितनी पूंजी है, राष्ट्रपति जी ने अपने अभिभाषण में उसका उल्लेख किया है और कहा है कि सरकार के खजाने पर पहला अधिकार सबसे गरीब आदमी का होगा। लेकिन गरीब आदमी के कल्याण के लिए हमें रोजगार के अवसर पैदा करने हैं। उसके लिए इंफ्रास्ट्रकचर बनाना है। इन्फ्रास्ट्रकचर बनाने के लिए नौ हजार किलोमीटर राजमागर्ों का निर्माण करना है, सारी बंदरगाहों और हवाईअड्डों का आधुनिकीकरण करना है, बिजली की योजनाएं बनानी हैं। ये सारे काम विदेशी पूंजी के यहां आए बिना नहीं हो सकते। हमें वह पूंजी इन कामों में लगानी है और अपना रुपया जनकल्याण के कामों में लगाया जाए, इस प्रकार की नीति इस सरकार की है। अगर यहां पर दस बलियन डालर्स प्रति वर्ष सीधे पूंजी निवेश हो तो ये सारे काम शुरू हो जाएंगे और यहां से बेरोजगारी दूर होगी तथा गरीबी का उन्मूलन होगा। इन सब कामों के लिए राष्ट्रपति जी के अभिभाषण में उल्लेख है। इन सारी योजनाओं के पूरा होने से और इन्फ्रास्ट्रकचर विकसित होने से हम देश को आगे ले जाएंगे। अध्यक्ष महोदय, हम इस देश को आधुनिक ही नहीं, एक अत्याधुनिक देश बनाना चाहते हैं। इसके लिए जो इंफार्मेशन टेकनोलॉजी है, जो प्रौद्योगिकी है, विज्ञान है, कम्प्यूटर टेकनोलॉजी है, स्पेस प्रोग्राम है, इन सबका जिक़ राष्ट्रपति जी ने अपने अभिभाषण में किया है। इसके लिए हम दुनिया से टेकनोलॉजी लेना चाहते हैं। अभी हम बहुत सी चीजों में दुनिया में एक नम्बर पर हैं और बाकी चीजों में भी अव्वल नम्बर हो जाएंगे। परंतु इसके साथ ही हम अपनी संस्कृति को नहीं छोड़ना चाहते। पश्िचम से टेकनोलॉजी लेना ठीक है, लेकिन पश्िचम की संस्कृति इस देश में आए और हम अपनी संस्कृति छोड़ दें, यह ठीक नहीं है। अतः हम अपनी संस्कृति के साथ इन चीजों के आधार पर एक आधुनिकतम देश बनना चाहते हैं, जिसका राष्ट्रपति जी ने उल्लेख किया है। अध्यक्ष महोदय, हमने अपने पड़ौसी देशों के साथ सम्बन्ध सुधारे हैं। उनको शांति का पैगाम दिया है। इसीलिए लाहौर के लिए बस यात्रा शुरू की गई, जिसमें वाजपेयी जी भी वहां गए थे। राष्ट्रपति जी ने इसका जिक़ किया है कि हम शांति चाहते हैं, परंतु शांति के साथ हम अपनी सेनाओं को इतना श्रेष्ठ बनाना चाहते हैं कि दुनिया की कोई भी ताकत हमारी तरफ आंख उठाकर न देख सके। मुझे आश्चर्य हुआ जब हमने अपने देश में परमाणु विस्फोट किया तो कांग्रेस पार्टी की नेता और दूसरे दलों के नेताओं ने यहां पर कहा कि इस देश में पीने को पानी नहीं, खाने को रोटी नहीं और हम चले हैं अणुशकित सम्पन्न राष्ट्र बनने। यही विचारधारा थी जिसने हमें एक हजार साल तक गुलाम बनाए रखा। हमने अपनी सेनाओं को पहले कभी श्रेष्ठतम हथियार प्रदान नहीं किए इसीलिए एक हजार साल तक हम गुलाम रहे। हम शान्ित चाहते हैं। हम चाहते हैं कि वभिन्न देशों के साथ हमारे संबंध सुधरें। परन्तु इतनी ताकत भी इसके पीछे रखना चाहते हैं कि शान्ित का सन्देश सुना जा सके। गीता में कहा है - "यत्र योगेश्वर कृष्ण: यत्र पाथर्ो धनुर्धर: तत्र श्री विजयोर्मूति ध्रुव: नीतिर्मतिमम् आगे-आगे शान्ित के दूत कृष्ण होने चाहिए, परन्तु उनके साथ धनुषधारी पार्थ अर्जुन भी होने चाहिए, तभी दुनिया उस आवाज को सुनती है। लाहौर की बस यात्रा के पहले यहां अगर अणु विस्फोट न हुआ होता, तो आज कारगिल का युद्ध इस प्रकार से पाकिस्तान वापिस लेने के लिए बाध्य न होता। इसलिए देश के सैनिकों को आधुनिक हथियारों से सुसज्िजत करना बहुत जरूरी है। राष्ट्रपति जी ने अपने अभिभाषण में आतंकवाद का उल्लेख किया है। मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि आतंकवाद पर काफी काबू पाया गया है। पाकिस्तान में चाहे सैनिक सरकार हो या दूसरी सरकार हो, चाहे एक की हो या दूसरे की, वे हिन्दुस्तान में आतंकवाद को बढ़ावा देते रहे हैं। कारगिल के युद्ध में तो ४००-५०० जवान शहीद हुए, परन्तु प्रोकसी वार में तो ५०० से भी ज्यादा जवान शहीद हो चुके हैं। कश्मीर के अन्दर, पूर्वी प्रदेशों में तथा देश के अन्य सभी भागों में, पाकिस्तान कीISI एजेंसी देश में आतंककवाद को फैला रही है और उसकी लपटे उठा रही है। उसका मुकाबला पिछले एक-डेढ़ में बहुत अच्छे ढंग से किया गया है। काफी कुछ काबू किया गया है, परन्तु बहुत कुछ करना बाकी है। टाडा कानून खत्म हो गया है। इस कानून का कही-कहीं पर दुरुपयोग हुआ, इसलिए इसको हटा दिया गया। बिना किसी कानून के आतंकवाद पर काफी काबू पाया गया है। आतंकवाद फैलाने वाले लोगों, तस्करों और दूसरे लोगों का मुकाबला करने के लिए कैसे कानून की जरूरत हो, कानून कया हो, इसके बारे में सभी पार्िटयां मिलकर विचार कर सकते हैं। महोदय, कुछ सवाल ऐसे हैं, जिन पर सब को मिलकर आम-सहमति के साथ करने की जरूरत है। राष्ट्रपति जी ने अपने अभिभाषण में जनसंख्या विस्फोट का उल्लेख किया है। इस देश में जब तक जनसंख्या पर काबू नहीं पाया जाएगा, जब तक यहां पर बढ़ती हुई आबादी को रोका नहीं जाएगा, तब तक सारे के सारे विकास के काम धरे रह जायेंगे। इसीलिए राष्ट्रपति जी ने अपने अभिभाषण में उल्लेख किया है कि जनसंख्या पर नियन्त्रण किया जाए। इसमें कोई पार्िटओं का सवाल नहीं है। जनसंख्या नियन्त्रण, गरीबी हटाना, गरीबी उन्मूलन, हमारी विदेश नीति और साथ ही प्रदूषण, ऐसे सवाल है, जिन पर आम-सहमति हो सकती है। इस पर सभी दल मिलकर सहयोग दें ... (व्यवधान)
जितने भी दल यहां पर बैठे हैं, वे इसमें सहयोग दें। महोदय, पिछले साल हमारे दल ने जब सत्ता संभाली थी, उस समय दुनिया में मानव विकास की दृष्िट से १३८वां स्थान था। यह हमारे लिए बहुत ही शर्म की बात है और बड़े दु:ख की बात है कि दुनिया में १६०-१७० देश हैं, देशों की संख्या घटती-बढ़ती रहती है, और हमारे देश का स्थान १३८वां है। इस साल हम १३०वें स्थान पर पहुंचे हैं। १३८वें स्थान से १३०वें स्थान पर पहुंचना हमारे लिए कोई गौरव की बात नहीं है। हमारी सरकार ने इस बात का संकल्प किया है, राष्ट्रपति महोदय ने अपने अभिभाषण में इसका उल्लेख किया है कि आने वाली शताब्दी में, अगले दस वषर्ों में, दुनिया में हम पहले दस स्थानों पर आ जायें। हम आ सकते हैं, अगर हमारा राष्ट्र इसके लिए संकल्प करे। सारा देश इसके लिए प्रयास करें और सभी दल मिलकर इस देश को दुनिया के पहले दस देशों में लाने के लिए प्रयास करें और हमें सहयोग दें। मैं समझता हूं कि आने वाली शताब्दी भारत की शताब्दी होगी। इन शब्दों के साथ में राष्ट्रपति जी से अभिभाषण पर धन्यवाद का प्रस्ताव प्रस्तुत करता हूं। MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, as decided in the meeting with the leaders of Parties and Groups in Lok Sabha held on 25th October, 1999, in order to enable more Members to participate in the discussion on the Motion of Thanks on the President"" ""s Address and other urgent Government business, the House may sit during the lunch hour from 26th to 29th October, 1999. I hope, the House agrees.
SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I stand here filled with emotion, a sense of happiness, a sense of commitment and a sense of contentment as I have been conferred this privilege to second the Motion of Thanks to the Address delivered by the hon. President of India before the two Houses of Parliament, moved by my esteemed colleague Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra.
Sir, I am happy indeed that the incumbent Prime Minister has come back with a decisive mandate to occupy his chair and that the incumbent Speaker also came to occupy his position. This is the first occasion in Indian history of these five decades and it is a unique occasion. I am happy also because I had the occasion to second the Motion of Thanks to the President"" """"s Address last year on 30th March, 1998.
Sir, from the core of my heart I extend my gratitude to the electorate of Sivakasi parliamentary constituency who have enabled me to participate in the deliberations of this Thirteenth Lok Sabha.
On 13th October, when Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee was sworn-in in the spacious maidan, within theprecincts of Rashtrapati Bhavan, laurels of greetings and congratulations were showered on him from all quarters, from all political parties. Sitting there at a distance, we heard the sound of fire crackers celebrating the joyous occasion. At the same hour, the sound of movement of the military machine was threatening the ears of the people of Islamabad. While the glow of the flame of democracy was spreading in all directions from here, a military take over was in progress in the neighbouring country.
At that time, what I read in my college days from the book ~A Tale of Two Cities " by famous novelist Charles Dickens, based on Carlyle"" """"""s great work French Revolution, crossed my mind. It reads:
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times; it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness; it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity; it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness; it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair; we had everything before us, but we had nothing before us; we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going the other way."
In short, this period so far resembled that period that some of the noisiest authorities insisted on being received, for good or evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."
That crossed my mind. The very next day when I met hon. Prime Minister to express our jubilation and congratulations. When I pointed out the scenario in Pakistan to him, in his usual poetic style Shri Vajpayee said to me that what was happening in Pakistan was `darkness at noon"" "". At the same time he felt so sad. He expressed his agony over the welfare and well being of the people of Pakistan. I felt so proud then of the leader of the National Democratic Alliance who stands tallest amongst the statesmen of the world today.
At the same time, I recall the day, the 17th April of this year, the dark Saturday in the history of the Lok Sabha, when Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee"""" ""s Government was defeated in the confidence motion by a single vote, one vote and also a challengeable controversial vote. At that time, I felt a little bit sad, but he took it sportively. Then I recalled the words of a great poet who said:
"If winter comes, can spring be far behind?"
Yes. I remember the words of my friends from the other side that they will form a Government within """" five minutes"" even """" ""within a minute"" . In one sentence, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee stated what is the alternative you are going to give. You can overthrow the Government? What alternative are you going to provide? There were voices of pessimism that there would be a hung Parliament and there would be a hung Lok Sabha again. But those voices of despair, frustration and pessimism have been rejected by the people lock, stock and barrel and those voices have disappeared in thin air and in oblivion. The people have given a decisive mandate for a stable Government. This Government will serve its full term of five years.
It will be very appropriate to quote the words of Mr. Winston Churchill about the election: -
"At the bottom of all tributes paid to democracy is the little man, walking into a little booth, with a little pencil, making a little mark, on a little piece of paper - no amount of rhetoric or voluminous discussion on democracy shall diminish the importance of this little man."
12.59 hrs (Shri P. M. Sayeed in the Chair) People have given this mandate. Why were we so jubilant when we heard the Address delivered by the Hon.President? In his Address, the real India has been represented, the National Democratic Alliance. A collective manifesto has been placed before the people before the elections, that is, the manifesto of the National Democratic Alliance for a proud and prosperous India. That is the policy document of this country, as defined by the President. That is the policy document of this National Democratic Alliance, of this Government. That policy was also expressed by Shri Jawaharlal Nehru about the provincial autonomy, State autonomy.
In his Address in page 2 para 5, the President has said: -
"The participation of regional parties in managing the affairs of the country at the national level in a stable and coherent coalition augurs well for our democracy and federal polity."
I am happy to note that the "Agenda for a Proud, Prosperous India," which is the Government """"""s common policy document, reaffirms its faith in the principles of Secularism, Social Justice, Federal Harmony, Probity, and Socio-economic Equity."
These are the basic and salient features of the Address.
As a true disciple of the founder of DMK Party, late lamented the great Anna, I feel elated to quote his words at this moment: -
"The preamble to the Constitution clearly states that the political sovereignty rests with the people. Then legal sovereignty is divided between the Federal Union and the constituent units. Why don"" ""t you take it that our scheme is to make the States still more effective sovereign units? Why don"" """"t you take it in that light?"
13.00 hrs. "Sovereignty does not reside entirely in one particular place. We have a federal structure. The framers of the Constitution wanted a federal structure and not a unitary structure because many political philosophers have pointed out that India is very vast. In fact, it has been described as a subcontinent - the mental health is so varied, the tradition so different, the history so varied - that there cannot be a steel-framed unitary structure. Here, we should take ourselves as the spearhead of the opposition to the unitary nature of the federal structure of this Constitution, lift it up to the highest political arena, allow it free play and make the federation become a real federation".
This is the beginning towards that goal. This is the write up towards that goal.
My friends, particularly, Shri Somnath Chatterjee and Shri Indrajit Gupta will be happy in their heart of hearts about the pronouncement of federal polity and federal harmony because no more are the days when a monolithic hegemony bulldozing the regional aspirations can have its political play. They also have to take lessons from this.
In the year 1974, the DMK Government - at that time the Chief Minister was Dr. Kalaignar Karunanidhi - passed a unanimous Resolution on the floor of the State Assembly for State autonomy. Again, it was Shri Jyoti Basu, the hon. Chief Minister of West Bengal who released the White Paper on State autonomy. That was reflected by Akali friends, that was reflected by the Telugu Desam and that was reflected by the National Conference. We have come together with a collective wisdom, a combined manifesto. Therefore, I felt very happy about this direction towards federalism.
When Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee came to participate in the 89th birth anniversary of Arignar Anna, he delivered a historic speech on the sands of Marina. He stated that the Dravidian Movement sprang up for the cause of democracy in this country and the foremost leader Dr. Anna gave a clarion call for social justice to uplift the socially and educationally backward classes and the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Now, when I hear the same voice, the same clarion call in the banks of the Ganges and in the banks of the Yamuna, as a disciple of Anna, I feel very happy. We are very happy when the voice of Periyar and the voice of Anna reverberate not only in the South but also in the East, in the West and in the North.
I would like to offer a bird"" """"s eye view on certain salient features of this Presidential Address: more thrust to be given to agriculture and agro-based small industries, creation of employment opportunities, assurance of health care, clean and potable drinking water even to the remove hamlets and villages, thrust to female literacy and primary education, a massive `shelter for all"" "" programme, to make India an information technology superpower, strengthening our infrastructure particularly in the power and energy sector, modernisation and restructuring of Indian textiles, the promotion of science and technology, comprehensive electoral reforms, eradication of the canker of corruption, widening the scope of the Lokpal Bill to cover the Office of the hon. Prime Minister and so on. We would get the credit - Atalji would get the credit - for implementing 33 per cent reservation for women in Parliament and State Legislatures. We will be the first great democracy in the whole world to implement 33 per cent reservation for women in Parliament and State Legislatures. Naturally, the credit will go to the Prime Minister.
I have gone through some of the amendments being moved by my esteemed friends. I would like to point out that the National Democratic Alliance"" """"s agenda is an `agenda for a proud, prosperous India"" . It has been emphatically mentioned by the President in his Address that this is based on the policy document of the National Democratic Alliance.
So, it is covering so many things in almost all the areas and all the spheres. I would like to tell them that for 45 long years or four-and-a-half decades, they were holding the reins of power, but they never thought a while to implement a project like the Sethu Samudram Canal which is pending for 138 years. It is the Prime Minister Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee who, when addressed the mammoth gathering at the Marina Sands, said that the long pending project of Sethu Samudram Canal Project would be implemented. That has been mentioned in this Agenda also.
Sir, it is my bounden duty to salute the martyrs who have shed their blood and who have laid down their lives in Kargil and Drass Sectors. When the Pokhran tests were conducted, people were raising hue and cry from the housetops, but with foresight, hon. Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee anticipated the misadventure from our neighbour who was already possessing clandestinely nuclear arsenal and therefore, he ordered for conducting nuclear tests, thus making this country a nuclear weapon State. With the same spirit, when he undertook the trip from Amritsar to Lahore, the message of friendship and the message of peaceful coexistence was there. Then, the world realised that here is a man for peace and for friendship.
With the mask of extremists, the Regular Army of Pakistan encroached upon our territory to usurp our territory. The Government, the Armed Forces and the people of India rose to the occasion to meet the challenge. I am proud of the Tamil youths from my State, Major Saravanan, Muhilan, Natarajan, Kamaraj, Saifullah, Abdul Sattar, Palani, Jayavelu and others who have joined the regiments of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar -- fighting for the territory at the lofty peaks of Himalayas, risking their lives and braving the cannon -- fire and bullets, piercing the enemy lives -- and laid down their lives. I have to salute all the martyrs of this country, the soldiers and airmen, for their incomparable heroism and sacrifice.
Sir, we won the battlefield and won the diplomatic battlefield also. On the diplomatic front, for the first time, India had secured a marvellous victory. The greatest achievement of our victory in this arena of diplomatic offensive is that for the first time, the whole world stood by us. The United States, Russia, Britain, France, even China had washed their hands off the erstwhile friend Pakistan. The remarkable achievement in this is that no member of the Organisation of Islamic Country, not even a single Muslim country supported Pakistan. The reasons are many.
We observed commendable restraint in not crossing the line of control. There was nothing wrong, had we crossed the line of control. That had happened throughout the world. Many countries have done this. But we observed commendable restraint in not crossing the line of control. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, one of the greatest leaders of the world was respected throughout the world as the `Jewel of Asia"""" "". The world respected him, but in our conflict with Pakistan at that time, the world was divided and many countries were not supporting us.
Madam Gandhi in her pinnacle of glory was a most respected leader of the world, more than Margaret Thatcher. The world respected her. But in the Bangladesh war, the whole world did not support India. That was the reality. For the first time, the whole world supported us and stood by us. That is because of the commendable approach and policy of the Government. On 17th April, millions and millions of people who were watching television and hearing AIR were shocked and became sad when they heard about the fall of the Vajpayee Government. That is not the weakness of democracy, but it is the strength of democracy. Then, Atalji has become the household name in every hamlet, in every village, in every town and in every city of this country. Wherever the mosque is there, that is the Muslim countries, they have supported us and they have not supported Pakistan. Throughout the world church is there. They have also supported us.
At this juncture I will fail in my duty if I do not mention about the visit of Pope John Paul. This country is the cradle of civilization. In this country the first church was built in Kerala in the first century. The Hindu King donated the land which was referred to by the Prime Minister in his speech. When Islam came, we embraced it with all love and affection. Mosques were built. I still remember the words of Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee which he uttered during the 13-day Government. In his speech he said, `We have not learnt secularism from anyone. We have learnt secularism from the first drop of our mother"""" """"s milk"" """". Whenever the churches were attacked and whenever the minorities were attacked, he was the first person to condemn that. Pope John Paul is going to visit this country. When he visited our country during 1986, he praised our culture, religion, civilization and faith. Likewise, Swami Vivekananda when he astonished the audience in Chicago called for mutual respect of all the religions.
Sir, the Secretary to Pope John Paul and President, Pontificial Council for Interreligious Dialogue, the Vatican City has sent a message to Hindu friends. He says, "Dear Hindu friends, As you celebrate the religious festival of Diwali, which symbolically suggests the victory of truth over untruth, light over darkness, life over death, good over evil, peace over conflict, I wish all of you abundant divine blessings and happiness throughout the new year which you begin according to your tradition. The popular Hindu festival of Diwali offers people from different religious traditions a joyful occasion to come together in a spirit of friendship and collaboration to reflect on the common origin and destiny shared by all, and to engage in constructive dialogue in order to address the many religious and social questions now facing the world".
So, this is the message from the Vatican city. Voices are raised here and there about the Pope"" ""s visit. I would make an appeal to all these people to whichever quarter they belong to, to resist from this and to stop making statements because the whole world is looking at us.
We have got the golden opportunity. Yes, the Goddess of nature has bestowed upon Atal ji the golden opportunity to steer this country at the dawn of the third millennium, at the threshold of the 21st century, on the eve of the Golden Jubilee of republic of this country. We have got the potential to lead the world. Years back, there were two blocks, the Capitalist Block and the Communist Block, one headed by the Soviet Union and the other by the US. Gone are those days. I hope, as a citizen of this dear land, Asia should lead the third millennium. If Asia has to lead the 21st century, naturally India has to lead the 21st century. That is there. That period, with all its glitter and shine, is coming. Therefore, whatever utterances may be made here, Hindu temples have been built in New York, Washington, Paris and London. They are respected. For the past 10 years, at least for the decade, the churches all over the world have been preparing to celebrate the entry into the third millennium as also the birth of Jesus Christ.
P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): Is it not painful that an effigy of Pope was burnt in the Capital.
SHRI VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA : No, it was not burnt.
ADV. P.C. THOMAS : Yes, it was burnt. It was reported in the newspapers. I totally agree with you but is it not painful?... (Interruptions)
SHRI VAIKO : Be careful in your words. It is not true.... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN : He is not yielding. If he yields then only you can speak.
MAJ. GEN. (RTD.) BHUWAN CHANDRA KHANDURI (AVSM) (GARHWAL): Sir, either that statement should not be allowed to go on record or he should be allowed to contradict it.... (Interruptions) If the statement is not true, let him... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please resume your seat, Shri Thomas.
SHRI VAIKO : Nothing like that has happened.... (Interruptions) Let us all welcome Pope John Paul. He is coming here to conclude the Assembly of Bishops. He is coming here for a purpose. They have chosen India after much consideration and deep contemplation. He is coming here to conclude the Assembly of Bishops and promulgate a document called Apostolic Exhortation. When Jesus shed his blood at the cross, that was the message of forbearance and forgiveness and love and non-violence.
Sir, this is not an occasion for discord. This is not an occasion to spread hatred or acrimony. This is an occasion which we all should welcome. The whole world is looking at us. I hope, my good friends who have occupied the Treasury Benches for the last 45 years, have learnt some lesson at least and I hope that they will prove themselves as an effective Opposition making constructive criticism and will prove that they can survive without power. They were so hasty, their thrust, hunger for power was so high, that they destablised the Government.
That is their style. They have destabilised not only the Central Government, but they have destabilised State Governments 95 times. If they are deliberately determined to sit permanently in the opposition, I have no objection..(Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN : Shri Vaiko, please address the Chair.
SHRI VAIKO : This is the trouble with them. They have to wait patiently...(Interruptions)
Even the other day they have said that they are for the resurrection of Panchmarhi Declaration. They have told that they will try to bulldoze the regional parties. That is the monolithic hegemony of one party rule. But the country is not for that. The result is that they have got an all time low representation in the Lok Sabha....(Interruptions)
I do not say you will be written off. You are a force. You have got a tradition. You have got an history. You have got a bad run. You may have got more percentage of votes. If you want to calculate the percentage of votes, how many seats you have contested? For the first time this time you had collaboration with some of the major parties in some of the States. Are you taking into account their percentage of votes also?...(Interruptions)
If I want, I can go. I will not take you. They have not learnt any lessons. Therefore, the voters, with all their wisdom, have put them in the right place because they have destabilised the then Government. This Government will serve its full term. Therefore, I would appeal to my friends to give constructive criticism and also cooperation.
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): I have one criticism of the Prime Minister. He should have taken you in the Cabinet! SHRI VAIKO : He wanted me. But I want to be in the Parliament, on the floor of the House. I am proud of him. The country is proud of him. The people are proud of him. The whole nation is proud of him.
Therefore, once again I would appeal to my friends to be patient for five years. At least try to come back if things are all right. But I do not think that opportunity will be given by Atalji to you. Therefore, I would request all the hon. Members of this House to support the motion moved by Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra.
I commend the motion and conclude.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion moved:
"That an Address be presented to the President in the following terms :-
"That the members of the Lok Sabha assembled in this Session are deeply grateful to the President for the Address which he has been pleased to deliver to both Houses of Parliament assembled together on October 25, 1999."
MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members present in the House whose amendments to the Motion of Thanks have been circulated may, if they desire, move their amendments by sending slips to the Table within fifteen minutes indicating the serial numbers of the amendments they would like to move. Those amendments only will be treated as moved.
A list showing the serial numbers of amendments treated as moved will be put up on the Notice Board shortly thereafter. In case any Member finds any discrepancy in the list, he may kindly bring it to the notice of the officer at the Table immediately.
SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL (CHANDIGARH): I have to make a submission. Three of my amendments have not been printed in the list. They do not find a mention here. I would like to know as to what is the authority that decides about this.
SHRI TRILOCHAN KANUNGO (JAGATSINGHPUR): We have not received any dak yesterday or today.
SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL (CHANDIGARH): I do not find any rules regarding the authority rejecting of amendments.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will look into it.
SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (PONNANI): One of my amendments has not been circulated and I do not know how to move it. The amendment is with respect to the fact that there is no condemnation of the Russian attack on Chechnia.
Sir, I request that I may be allowed to move this particular amendment also that there is no condemnation of the Russian attack on Chechnya in the Address given by the President. It is a very inhuman attack on the civilians in Chechnya and the House must take note of it. Unfortunately, the condemnation does not appear in the President"" s Address. I have given a notice of the amendment but I find that copies of the amendment have not been circulated.
MR. CHAIRMAN : Your amendment was disallowed and you have already been intimated.
SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : I was just now told. I request you to allow me. It was a very inhuman attack on civilians and hospitals.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Your amendment refers to discourtesy to friendly foreign Government and hence it is disallowed.
SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : There is no question of discourtesy. Civilians have been attacked and hospitals have been attacked. Are we to be a silent spectator of violation of all international agreements and human rights?
MR. CHAIRMAN: It is disallowed on the basis of rules.
SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : I may be allowed to move it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Not now. You may do it on some other occasion. Shri Shivraj Patil may speak now.
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL (LATUR): Sir, with your permission, I would like to extend congratulations to the hon. Speaker who was elected to this august post by this House unanimously for the second time. With your permission, I would also like to extend congratulations to the Prime Minister and other Ministers who have formed this Government. With your permission, I would also like to congratulate all the Members who have been elected to this House. I am doing this because I am taking the floor for the first time in the Thirteenth Lok Sabha.
Sir, the President"""" ""s Address touches upon many important issues. The issues on which it touches relate to security, removal of poverty, removal of unemployment, economic development, education, National Health Policy, agriculture, irrigation, water resources, infrastructure, Integrated Transport Policy, the new Telecom Policy, information technology, small scale industries, judicial reforms, WTO, science and technology, urban development, youth, internal security, riot-free and terrorism-free India with Zero Tolerance, Centre-State relations, Constitutional amendment, fixed period of Lok Sabha and other things, reservation for women, free education for girls, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes electoral reforms, corruption and foreign policy.
These are the points on which the Government, through this Address, has come before this House. Now, what has been said by the Government on these points in broad outline cannot be objected to. It would be necessary for this House to consider all these points and then go into the details and say on what points in detail the House agrees and on what points in detail the House does not agree.
The first point which has been made by the Government relates to security.
Naturally, they have referred to the Kargil issue. All the Members of this House, and all the citizens of this country are proud of the fact that the intruders have been thrown out by our gallant soldiers and officers. We would also like to join the Government and the others also in congratulating our soldiers and officers. There is no doubt about it. Let there not be any doubt at all that nobody objected to the Government"" s efforts to throw the intruders out. At no point of time, no leader and no responsible citizen of this country objected to the efforts done by the Government to throw them out. There is no doubt about it. They have thrown out the intruders and we are very happy about it. We congratulate all those who are responsible for it. But the question remains - it has to be discussed while discussing the Address given by the President - as to how they entered the territory. What were we doing when they were entering this territory? If they were not allowed to come into the territory, there would not have been Kargil. Many other things would not have happened in the neighbouring country also. Therefore, we would like to know what kind of information was available to the Government...(Interruptions)
Why did the Government not take action in time? What prevented them from taking action in time? When this was happening, some Members of Parliament wanted to discuss this matter. The Lok Sabha was not in existence. The Rajya Sabha was in existence. We wanted to have a discussion in the Rajya Sabha. But even that discussion was not allowed. Of course, the Government was not a full-fledged Government. It was a caretaker Government. Why did the Government not think that the Members are responsible enough to support the efforts made by our soldiers and by our Government also in throwing out the intruders from the territory? What prevented them to come to that conclusion? In the neighbouring country, when this was happening, there were demonstrations on the road. The matter was discussed in the National Assembly. When the first World War and the Second World War took place, the matters were discussed in the Parliament. If the Lok Sabha is not in existence, if the Rajya Sabha Members are not allowed to discuss a matter of this nature, what is the purpose of having the Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha? The Government owes an explanation on this point. Why did they come to the conclusion that the Members were going to behave in an irresponsible manner to obstruct the activities of the Government? Who had said that they should not send the forces, should not use the Air Force, should not use the planes, should not use all the equipment which were at their disposal to throw the intruders out? Who had said that? Who had said that they should not spend money to throw the intruders out? Who had said that they should not spend money on an activity of this type? Who had said it? Which responsible officer, which responsible citizen and which responsible Party said this? Nobody has said this. Yet, when this was happening, the elected Members of the Rajya Sabha were not allowed to discuss it. The important point is that the Members of the Rajya Sabha are not nominated Members like the Members of the House of Lords. The Members of the Rajya Sabha are elected by the elected representatives of the State Legislatures. One of the reasons why the Rajya Sabha has been constituted in this fashion under the Constitution is to have the perpetual existence of the Rajya Sabha so that when occasions of this nature arise, the Members, the elected representatives in a democracy should be able to discuss these kinds of matters.
We would like to have an explanation on this point. Well, we are not criticising for all that has been achieved by the Government or the soldiers or the officers. But we, certainly, would like to have an explanation on this point so that in future - it should not happen - if it happens, there should be an occasion for the elected representatives to discuss a matter of this nature. If you do not have faith and confidence in the elected representatives of the people, then in whom are you going to have faith and confidence?
Now, the matter of security has been mentioned. Well, we are indeed very happy that the Government feels that there should be `zero tolerance "" to terrorist activities. We are happy about it. While speaking in this House itself, in the 12th Lok Sabha, I had said that in the present times, it is not the open war which are going to be more troublesome, but the terrorist activities are going to be very troublesome and it is necessary for any country for that matter, or for India, to be very careful about terrorist activities. It is a sort of proxy war, it is a low intensity war for which people have developed the theories and according to their theories, if you spend Rs.2,000 crore in a war of four or five days, you can spend the same amount of money for seven or 8 years and you can go on creating problems to your neighbours and others. The information is given to them, training is given, equipment are given, plans are made by the experts and the low intensity war is being waged in some countries. It is waged here in India also and we have suffered due to that low intensity war. So, I had said last time that if we really want to have good security provided to our country, there is no doubt that we should modernise our defence forces, there is no doubt that there should be research and development to help the defence forces, there is no doubt that better intelligence should be available to them, there is no doubt that there should be a vision and our defence forces, the Government and the people of this country should know what is going to happen in future and they should be prepared for that.
But at the same time, the time has come when we have to pay enough attention to the terrorist activities which are perpetrated in our country and also in some other countries. I think that enough has not been done in this respect. I do think that enough attention has not been given to this aspect. If you want to stop the terrorist activities, specially the terrorist activities started by the neighbouring countries, we need a long-term plan. We need information, intelligence etc., and the equipment which are available with us should be used in a proper manner and to the maximum extent. If the equipment and the methods are not available, we should acquire them and use them.
Now, whenever the terrorist activities are started we are asking the defence forces to counter them. If it is necessary it should be done. No responsible person is going to say that we should not use the defence forces for this purpose, even when it is necessary. But it is not good to use the defence forces all the time to counter the terrorist activities. This fact has to be realized and it has become necessary to develop a police force specially for countering the terrorist activities. Have we paid attention to this aspect?
The State Governments have their police force and the Union Government is also having some police force at their disposal. But they do not have the equipments which are required for them. Take the case of some foreign countries like Germany or, for that matter, any other country.
At the airport, you will find the BMPs. The armoured carriers are used by the police force to provide security to the people and to provide a facility to counter the terrorist activities at the airports and other places. It should be possible for us to provide something like that to the police force also in India. It is necessary that the communication facility, which is provided to the police force in a State and also at the Union level, should be a modern communication facility. The communication is at the very root of it. But we have not paid attention to it. The equipment that they have - the equipment for transporting the force, the equipment which are used as weapons by the police force - are also outdated, outmoded and obsolete. We are asking the police force to go and counter the terrorists who have the most modern equipment. Is it not a time when we should have a long-term vision for this purpose for the Union Government and also for the State Governments and to have a comprehensive plan for strengthening the police force that we have in the country so that they have the requisite quality of weapons, the transport facility, communication facility and also the weapon system?
I do think that it is necessary. If we are spending some money on strengthening the defence forces, at the same time, it will be necessary to spend money on strengthening the police force also at the Union level and the State level. If we were not spending enough money on strengthening the police force at the Union level and the State level, we will not be in a position to counter the terrorist activity. To that extent, our security will remain weak. That has to be understood. Therefore, for that purpose, we shall have to take action.
The manifesto given by the Congress Party has mentioned many of these points. I am very happy that many of the points, which are mentioned in the Congress manifesto, do not find a mention in the manifesto of the BJP. They are mentioned in the Address given by the present Government. One of the things which has been mentioned in the manifesto is that the time has come when we shall have to have a Commission appointed for reforming the police force in the country at the Union level and the State level. This has not been clearly mentioned in the Address given here. But if it is necessary, we can certainly have a Commission appointed so that they can have a short-term, a medium-term and a long-term plan for training, a plan for providing the equipment, a plan for providing the transport system, a plan for providing the communication system and a plan for countering the terrorist activities in the country.
While talking about the security, I would like to say that what is important to provide the security to the country is the understanding of the world situation and the internal situation. The threat perception - internal and external - is one thing. But the second thing is to modernise the defence forces about which, I think, there appears some clarity in the mind of the Government. But the third most important thing is that we shall have to keep the morale of the defence forces very high. This requires a lot of tightrope walking and also a responsible behaviour on the part of the Government and those who are at the helm of affairs and those who are holding the charge. If they behave in an erratic manner, if they behave in a manner that the morale of the defence forces is lowered, it is not going to be helpful. The time has come when the Government has to do some sort of soul searching on this point and the Government has to take a corrective action. Those who are working with the Government - any Government for that matter - are the citizens of India. They are holding important posts and positions. They have to be treated properly. They have to be treated in a manner in which they should be. If they are not treated in that manner, it does not enhance the morale of the defence forces. Once the morale of the defence forces is shattered, no amount of money that we will be spending on security will help you.
No amount of modern equipment will help us and that is why some sort of introspection, some sort of thinking about these points is necessary.
Sir, we have been talking about the electoral reforms and the Address speaks about the electoral reforms also. I know that in the last four-five Lok Sabhas we have discussed this matter in this House itself, and not for one hour or two hours, once it was discussed for more than ten hours continuously. After that Goswami Committee was appointed and that Committee gave a report. We all have been talking about the Goswami Committee Report, what has been said in that Report, and asking that the recommendations given by the Goswami Committee Report Report should be implemented.
Fortunately, some of the recommendations given by the Goswami Committee Report have been implemented, but not all the recommendations have been implemented. If it is possible, we should implement all the recommendations given by Goswami Committee Report. But if you ask me whether I am satisfied with the Goswami Committee Report, I would say `No"""" .
Goswami Committee Report is a compromise document. One Member wanted one thing, it was given, the second Member wanted some thing, it was given. It is a sort of a compromise document. The Goswami Committee Report is not going to meet the requirement of electoral reforms in our country. So, it is necessary that we should consider this issue of electoral reforms in great detail and we should then take some hard decisions and then we should try to see that the electoral reforms are made there and to helps our democracy.
The two-three points which are raised with respect to electoral reforms are the money power, the muscle power and the criminalisation of politics. These are the three points which are generally discussed.
As far as the money power is concerned, I think it should be possible for the Government of India, for our country to see that money power does not dominate and money or funds are provided to the candidate or to the party in a fashion that the money power does not influence the results in the election. In the case of muscle power also it should be possible to take proper steps. But the issue of criminalisation is really very important and I do not think that there is an easy solution. It is easier said than done. It is not possible to have a law which can really free the electoral system from criminalisation. Against a candidate if a case is filed and if you do not allow him to contest the election, all the good candidates in the House will have cases filed against them. This matter has to be very carefully looked into and we shall have to go into the details and come to the conclusion. Some of us who are lawyers know that the laws and courts are used not only to do justice but sometimes to obstruct justice and sometimes to harass the people also. That is why this issue has to be very carefully looked into.
Now, I will come to the amendments to the Constitution. Constitutional Amendment also has been suggested. There are two-three points which are mentioned relating to the Constitutional Amendment. One of the points is that the Lok Sabha should have a term of five years and it should not be dissolved before the term is over. When we have fought three elections in three years and when we are sitting here, this appears to be very rosy proposal, but it is not free from defects.
If you have a Lok Sabha which can continue for five years and cannot be dissolved, the Executive may be accountable to the elected Members but the elected Members are not accountable to the people. Whatever they do, they will be allowed to continue in the House for five years. This is going from one extreme to the other extreme. On the one hand there should not be frequent elections; every year there should not be Parliament elections; there should be a reasonable stability provided to the tenure of the Members in the House as also the Executive. But at the same time if you are going from one extreme to the other extreme, it is not going to be useful.
13.51 hrs (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Most important element of democracy is accountability. If the Members are not asked to account for what they do in the House; what kind of policies they make; what kind of implementation they ask the Executive to do and they do not account to their constituents, it is not a democracy. That is why, I do think that the idea of providing a reasonable stability to the Members of Parliament in the House is welcome but at the same time going from one extreme to the other extreme is also not correct. It is not democratic. Even the Executive should have a reasonable stability. But if the Executive cannot be removed at all; No-Confidence Motion cannot be moved at all, that is not correct. We are not democratic if we say that for five years whatever the Members do, they should be allowed to do; whatever the Executive wants to do, the Executive should be allowed to do. Going from one extreme to the other extreme is not correct. This is an issue which has to be very carefully looked into and we will have to come to a conclusion which is really useful to the democratic system and to the good governance in the country also. On the one hand there should be a good governance; on the other hand there should be full accountability.
My formula about this is that there should be a reasonable stability provided to the Executive as well as to the Members in the House and there should be absolute accountability of the Executive to the Legislature and the Members of the Legislature to the people. This is my formula. There are methods which we can use to provide this kind of balance also. By amending the Constitution we can provide this. It is suggested that the positive No-Confidence Motion should be adopted by India so that there are no No-Confidence Motion which leave a void after the Confidence Motions are passed and the positions remain vacant. That kind of situation should not be there, and as in Germany we should have a positive No-Confidence Motion.
Well, I do think that it is something which can certainly be considered. There was a time when I myself had suggested this on the floor of this House. I would not object to it but one point which I would like to make with respect to this proposal is that it is not necessary to amend the Constitution to provide a positive No-Confidence Motion. The Confidence Motion is not provided in the Constitution of India. The Constitution of India does not speak about the Confidence Motion or No-Confidence Motion. It is only the Rules Book which speaks about No-Confidence Motion. So, it would be easier for us to have an amendment on this point but amendment on this point will be meaningless unless and until there is full consensus on this point. There would be so many other things which have not occurred to us, which may occur to others also and they would like to speak about those things. Unless and until those things are carefully examined by all parties and all parties agreed to it, it would be difficult to amend the rules also, leave aside the Constitution. There is no question of amending the Constitution for having a positive No-Confidence Motion because it is to be provided in the Rules Book. These are the two points which I want to make on this issue.
Now I come to the Transport Policy. We, three, are sitting here. Our Deputy Leader, Shri Madhavrao Scindia, my good colleague and friend, Shri Pilot and myself are sitting here. It was suggested to us that we should have an integrated transport policy for India.
Instead of having a road transport policy or a shipping transport policy, or a railway transport policy or an aviation transport policy, it was suggested to us that the transport activity in India which is one of the most important infrastructural facilities provided for the economic development should be looked at in an integrated manner so that the policies which are evolved on these points are most cost-effective and useful. That is why, the railways, the roadways, the waterways, the airways, the ghatways and the ropeways should be taken into consideration and an integrated transport policy should be evolved.
If I remember correctly, we, three of us, sat once or twice and we had thought about it. But this could not be completed. We are very happy that the present Government is suggesting something of this nature . It is good.
Now if we evolve an inteegrated transport policy and if we allow all the resources which are available in the country to be used for providing the transport facility for the development of the country, it would be very useful. So, on this point, I think the cooperation can be extended by us. Of course, there will be areas on which there may be difference of opinion and we can go into them.
Then let me come to poverty alleviation. On poverty alleviation, I would like to say one thing. Mahatma Gandhiji suggested that the last man should be helped and every tear from every citizen"""" s eyes should be wiped out. All those things are there. But those aspects should not be mentioned only and leeft at that. We should be very sincere about them. If we are not sincere about them and we are mentioning them only for cosmetic purposes, it is not going to help. We would be deceiving ourselves and we will be deceiving the people. If we are not really helping the last man, the destitute, the poor and we are making the policies which do not take into account as to how he should be helped, it would be very difficult.
Now, in this Address, there are certain things which have been mentioned. The issue of economy has been mentioned. They say that we shall have to reduce the expenditure which the Government incurs. How will the Government try to reduce the expenditure which it is going to incur? If you are going to reduce the expenditure which the Government is incurring for helping the poor man to buy his bread, buy his medicine, buy his drinking water, in what way that will be helpful? Now, a philosophy has been propounded to reduce the subsidies in order to put the economy in good order. I think we shall have to see that the Government expenditure is reduced but the help given to the poor people should not be reduced. There is a difference between reducing the expenditure incurred by the Government and reducing the help given by the Government to the poor people. If the Government is spending Rs.2 lakh on a project and if the Government can do it with Rs.1 lakh, that is reducing the expenditure. But if a poor man is getting his bread, you know, at one rupee or one-and-a-half rupees and if you want to increase the price of bread to Rs.2 or Rs.3 and increase the money in government coffers, it will not really be reducing the expenditure. There is a difference between reducing the subsidy and reducing the Government"""""""" """" """"""""s expenditure. It has to be very carefully examined. What we want, what the country wants and what the world also wants is that the expenditure incurred by the Government in providing the facilities to the people should be reduced by adopting proper methods and means so that there is no burden on the citizen. But to say or to show that we are reducing the expenditure. If we are reducing the help given to the poor, that is not going to be helpful. I would like to distinguish these two things very clearly; one reducing the actual expenditure on administration and the other reducing the subsidies which are given to the poor people.
14.00 hrs. If there is a misuse, let us do away with that. Let us have a look at it. Nobody is going to say that you do not do that, but blindly if you are going to reduce the help which is given to the poor people, it is not going to be helpful.
Then, I come to Science and Technology. Well, Science and Technology is really at the root of economic development. Without developing Science and Technology, it would be very difficult for us to compete with the world or to meet all our requirements or reduce the expenditure which the Government or any other person incurs in producing things. But this issue has to be very carefully examined. What has been mentioned in the Address, I think, is not sufficient and it is not satisfactory also. What is stated in the Address is that there should be coordination between different departments. We have seven or eight Science Departments like Atomic Energy, Space Department, Electronics Department, Genetic Engineering Department, Ocean Development Department, CSIR and ICMR etc. There should be coordination, but that alone is not enough. Now, at the Government level there is coordination. The Prime Minister sits in the Committee and tries to coordinate the activities of all these departments, and the Secretaries meet to coordinate all these departments, but that is not sufficient. What is most important for the development of Science and Technology in the country is this. It is only the Union Government which is spending the money on the development of Science and Technology. Let it be very carefully examined. The State Governments are not spending, public sector undertakings are not spending -
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Patil, are you going to complete it now or do you want to continue on 28th October because at 2 o"""" clock we want to start the discussion under Rule 193?
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL : If I have the time, then I would like to speak again.
MR. SPEAKER: You can continue on 28th, that is, day after tomorrow.
Hon. Members, as decided in the meeting with the Leaders of Parties/Groups in Lok Sabha held on 25th October, 1999, the discussion on Motion of Thanks on the President"" """"s Address which commenced today, would now be resumed on 28th October, 1999 to facilitate the discussion under Rule 193 regarding increase in the price of diesel and passing of some important Government Bills.
I hope the House agrees.
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