Lok Sabha Debates
Further Discussion Regarding Serial Bomb Blasts In Delhi On 29.10.05, ... on 8 December, 2005
Title : Further discussion regarding serial bomb blasts in Delhi on 29.10.05, terrorists violence in Jammu and Kashmir, Naxalite attacks that took place in Jehanabad, Bihar on 13.11.2005 and Naxalite attack that took place at the Home Guard Training Centre, Giridih, Jharkhand on 11.11.2005.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, we take up item no. 21 – Discussion under Rule 193. The allotted time was four hours. We have already taken three hours and thirty-six minutes.
Shri Nikhil Kumar was on his feet when it was last discussed. I request him to continue his speech.
श्री नखिल जी, हम इस विषय को ४.३० बजे तक समाप्त करना चाहते हैं। आप अपनी बात जल्दी समाप्त कीजिएगा।
श्री नखिल कुमार : महोदय, मैं पिछले छह दिनों से बोलने के लिए इंतजार कर रहा हूं। मुझे थोड़ा समय जरूर दीजिएगा।
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You please continue your speech.
SHRI NIKHIL KUMAR : Sir, I was on my feet on 1st December, 2005 and I was trying to explain as to why a special law is being sought to fight the battle against terror. A point was made by our friends on the other side that we are not serious enough to fight terrorism in our country. One reason, they said, was that we do not have a special law and the special law that used to be there has been scrapped. I would like to say that the special law, it is believed, helps in both the investigation of a terrorist crime and in the prosecution of the terrorist so that the special law is in a position to secure the conviction of the terrorist. There have been some very serious terrorist crimes in this country. I would mention just two of them. One was the incident of assault on the Red Fort.
And the second was the assault on the Parliament. Both these cases have ended in conviction. This must be noted. In neither case was the special law of great use. On the other hand, what is significant is the conviction in both the cases was handed down under the general law. This has to be understood that if we have to fight terrorism, it can be fought efficiently and effectively with the help of the general law that we have at the moment.
The United Kingdom has a special law. But it did not help the United Kingdom authorities prevent the series of terrorist incidents on the 7th of July. Special law can be expected to assist us in expediting trial. Unfortunately, we have special courts under the special laws but the trials have been extended as long as in any normal court. In some cases, the trials may have even ended but the judgement has not been announced.
We had seen in Britain the series of bomb blasts that took place nearly six months ago but still given the criminal jurisprudence system of Britain where trials are very expeditiously concluded, even there the special law has not been able to secure a very speedy trial. My point, therefore, is that the special law itself cannot be considered the only panacea in combating terrorism. This Government is extremely certain and very sure of combating terrorism through the general law and it is serious in combating it. We have rightly given importance to contain terrorism, as it should, because it leads to massive loss of life and property mainly of the innocents.
But I would say that this phenomenon called Naxalism is equally serious, if not more, and it must be given equal importance. Naxalism today is such a big scourge that nearly one-third of our country’s districts are under the sway of Naxalism. Nearly 200 districts out of 600 have been affected by the Left wing extremism. The CPI (Maoists), the Left wing extremists, are in concert with the Communist Party of Nepal (Marxist) Maoists, and they want to forge a Compact Revolutionary Zone from Nepal right down to the South. When this comes about, it would be a wedge right through the centre of this country. It will divide this country the North-East from the rest of the country. What can be the consequences? It can always be imagined. It is, therefore, very essential that this phenomenon of Naxalism must be combated very strongly and efficiently.
Sir, I will dwell a little on the causes of what is called Naxalism. Basically, it is related to socio-economic causes. There are also criminal causes. But it is land which is at the root of all the problems. Land is at the root of the problem because of a revenue settlement that we reached in 1793. An intermediary came between the Government and the peasant, the tillers. It is this intermediary, who had to pay a fixed land rental, was in a position to carry out atrocities and exploitation. It is this which has led to a non-incentive to production and productivity. It has led to poverty. It has led to backwardness and it has, therefore, led to Naxalism being what it is in the poorest and the most economically backward districts of this country.
My suggestion, therefore, is that it should not only be tackled as a law and order problem but also the Centre must reserve to itself the suo motu right to tackle this problem even if it means bringing about an amendment in the Constitution of the Concurrent List and the State List. This subject should be examined very carefully and deeply and it should be brought on the Concurrent List.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please conclude.
SHRI NIKHIL KUMAR : Kindly give me a little time.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No, I cannot allow you any more.
SHRI NIKHIL KUMAR : The point that I want to make is about the dialogue that has to be carried out with the Naxalites. My point is that dialogue should carried out but it should not give any chance to the Left wing extremists to find the time to regroup themselves and then go back on whatever agreement that they may have had with the Government.
That leads to further violence. It is this violence that we have to be careful about and the violence must be contained through a Two Point Programme of Containment and Counter. For this containment, the Centre may have to take even suo motu action. I also say this because there are inter-State ramifications of naxalism. It is not only a matter which is confined to one State. Then the modernisation of security forces is of utmost importance. We have to do that because at some places, the police forces are so backward that they are unable to even go out into the areas affected by naxalism. They are so scared, especially of land mines that are laid. The experiment of providing mine -proof vehicles has failed. We saw the incident in Chhattisgarh where 22 people were killed. I would request the hon. Home Minister to kindly consider these suggestion about pro-active action by the Centre even if it has to bring an amendment. To counter the ideology of Na xalism, we should have the ideology of development. Then land reform is important and we must pay very special attention through the means of dialogue.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Prof. M. Ramadass – not present.
Now, Shri Tapir Gao to speak.
SHRI TAPIR GAO : Hon. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, many hon. Members have spoken on this bomb blast in Delhi and situation in Kashmir, Jehanabad and Jharkhand. But I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Home Minister to North-East. Whenever he makes a statement in the Rajya Sabha or inside or outside the Parliament, he is always saying that there is an improvement in the North Eastern Region. But I feel surprised and the country also feels surprised. Recently, one incident has happened in Assam in the District of Karbi Anglong and in North Kachar Hills. The Government of India has fixed the responsibility to that incident as communal clash between two tribals. Tribals are innocent people. They do not know as to how to focus in the forum of this country. All our media friends are also highlighting it as a tribal clash. If it is a tribal clash then I want to know as to why both the DIMASAS and the Karbis are still living together in the relief camps. I would like to know as to why the Government of India is not taking the responsibility there. Both the DIMASAS and the KARBIS have got their underground activists. Underground activists of both are having cease-fire with the Government of India. I would like to know as to why the Government of India is not taking responsibilities of it as an atankwadi issue. The Government of India is managing the situation of insurgency but they are not finding out a lasting solution.
I have got a lot of points but you have given me only two minutes. This is the question of eight States. We cannot deny the nexus of naxalites and the North East extremisms. We cannot deny that all underground activities are prevailing in the North Eastern Region with the mainland extremisms. Here, the Government of India need a political will. Without political will, there cannot be any solution in that part of the country.
Sir, daily there is a killing of innocent people in Manipur. If there is a cease-fire with the Naga underground activists then in my Parliamentary constituency in Tirap District, as to why recently one citizen has been killed. Is this the salient feature of the peace talks with the Naga underground activists? The solution to the problem of underground activists of Nagas should be found out. If this is the salient feature to the peace talks, the extortion and killings then what is the solution? All these things are going on in the North Eastern Region. That is why, in such national insurgencies and internal security problems, the North Eastern Region should not be overlooked. Prevention is better than cure. Shri Kapil Sibal, the hon. Minister has given a simple statement on the floor of the House.
While responding to the point made by our hon. Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Prof. V.K. Malhotra, Shri Kapil Sibal stated in this august House that there is a relation between the North-Eastern extremist groups and political leaders. Who are the political leaders having nexus with the underground outfits in the North-East? It is the Congress Government in Assam; it is the Congress Government in Manipur; and it is the Congress Government in Arunachal Pradesh. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and the Government of India need political will to tackle all these activities in the North-Eastern region.
I would like to know whether the Government of India is having any talks with the Myanmarese Government and the Bangladeshi Government to take action for closing down the training camps. If so, what is the outcome of the talks with the Bangladeshi Government and the Myanmarese Government? All the North-East extremist groups are having training camps in Myanmar and Bangladesh. Until and unless there is political will, the problem cannot be solved in the North-East.
I have got a few suggestions. My first suggestion is that the Government needs political will. We cannot always try to find solutions at the barrel of a gun. This morning, there was a news flash in Aaj Tak where the Chief Minister of Manipur was said to have given Rs. 1.5 crore to an underground outfit in Manipur. So, it requires political will. The Army, the paramilitary forces and the police forces should be well equipped with modern technology. It is also important to have socio-economic development in the North-Eastern parts of the country along with tackling insurgency. We should also have border fencing.
I am a Member of the Departmentally-Related Standing Committee on Home Affairs. We always used to talk about border fencing. It is very important that border fencing in the border of our North-Eastern States with Bangladesh should be taken up. Hon. Members Shri Mohan Singh and Gurudas Dasgupta had put a Question on 29th November, 2005 on the Karbi-Anglong issue. The State Government has given an assurance to pay Rs. 3 lakh to the kin of the victims but not even a single paisa has been given to the victims. It has been called a tribal clash. So, everything has been done behind the scenes by the extremists. The Government of Assam has asked the Government of India for a CBI inquiry. Where is the CBI inquiry? Nothing has happened so far; not even a single culprit has been nabbed till today.
Sir, I am concerned over the situation in the North-East. I would like to get a meaningful reply from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.
SHRI BIR SINGH MAHATO: Sir, we are discussing four incidents: the serial bomb blasts in Delhi, the terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir, the Naxalite attack that took place in Jehanabad in Bihar, and the Naxalite attact that took place at the Home Guard Training Centre in Giridih in Jharkhand. These could be classified into two categories. The first two incidents could be called militant attacks, perpetrated by our neighbouring country and the other two incidents could be called Naxalite extremism.
The Naxalite activities are increasing every year throughout the country. They are spreading all over the country and they are attacking here and there. Almost 160 districts of the country are backward districts where there is hunger and starvation. Actually, Naxalite activities started in West Bengal but now there is no Naxalite activity in West Bengal. It is because the Government of West Bengal has taken very sincerely the problems of the land. They have taken a lot of progressive steps in respect of land reforms and because of these steps, they have solved the problem of the naxalites. I think, this lesson should be followed by other States also where land is the problem and where starvation and hunger etc. are responsible for the naxalite activities. If the State Governments carry out these land reforms, then their activities can be checked by them.
Sir, with these few words, I conclude.
श्री इलियास आज़मी : साढ़े चार घण्टे में से बीएसपी को एक मिनट भी नहीं मिला है।
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपकी पार्टी के किसी भी सदस्य ने नाम ही नहीं दिया था।
श्री इलियास आज़मी : उपाध्यक्ष महादय, सिर्फ हमारे यहां ही नहीं दुनिया के ज्यादातर मुल्कों में आतंकवाद पर बहस हो रही है, लेकिन सिर्फ हमारे यहां ही नहीं दुनिय:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ; के ज्यादातर देशों में एक सुपर पावर, एक सुपर टैरेरिस्ट पावर के इशारे पर हर जगह बहस को गलत दिशा में मोड़ा जा रहा है। मैं पहले भी कह चुका हूं और आज भी पूरे एतमाद के साथ कहत:ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ; हूं, खास तौर से हमारे दाहिने साइड बैठने वाले भाइयों से कि वे इसे गलत मायनों में नहीं लेंगे। इसलिए कि मेरा नाम इलियास आज़मी है।…( व्यवधान)
श्री हंसराज जी.अहीर (चन्द्रपुर) : महोदय, यह बोल रहे हैं…( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please take your seat.
… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not disturb him. Please take your seat and do not waste the time of the House.
… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ilyas Azmi, please address to the Chair.
… (Interruptions)
श्री इलियास आज़मी : जब तक हम इस बात पर गौर नहीं करेंगे, जब तक हम उन वजूहात को खत्म नहीं करेंगे, तब तक आतंकवाद खत्म नहीं हो सकता है। आतंकवाद का कोई मज़हब नहीं होता है। आतंकवाद सिर्फ कश्मीर में ही नहीं है। यह अलग बात है कि कश्मीर के आतंकवाद की ज्यादा चर्चा हम यहां करते हैं। उन लोगों का भी आतंकवाद है, जिनका ;े हजारों सालों से जानवर बनाकर रखा गया था और एक आदमी एक वोट के ज़माने में इस ज़म्हुरी निज़ाम में भी हमने ताल-तिकड़म करके यह कोशिश की कि उनको इन्सान्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ; बनने का मौका न दें। उनको आप लाख टैरेरिस्ट कहें, लाख टाडा और पोटा बनाएं या उससे भी शैतानी कानून बना दीजिए, मैं दावे के साथ कहता हूं और मेरी यह बात लोक सभ्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ा के रिकार्ड में रहेगी कि इस सबसे आतंकवाद खत्म नहीं हो सकता है। यदि हम पूरी तरह से सच्चा इंसाफ कायम कर दें तो नक्सलाइट आतंकवाद खत्म हो जाएगा।
जिन वजूहात से आतंकवाद पनपता है, जिन वजूहात से आतंकवाद भड़कता है, उन वजूहात को खत्म किए बिना, हम टाडा, पोटा या बंदूक के ज़रिए आतंकवाद खत्म नहीं कर सकते हैं। हम:ठ्ठ द्धत्द; यह सोचना होगा कि १८-२० साल का एक नौजवान, जिसने इस दुनिया में आने के बाद कुछ नहीं देखा है, दुनिया का लुत्फ़ नहीं उठाया है, वह क्यों अपने शरीर पर बम बांधकर अपने आपक ो उड़ा देता है और अपने साथ दस-बीस लोगों को भी उड़ा देता है? इसकी कोई वजह तो होगी? उन वजूहात को समझे बगैर और उसका तदारुक किए बगैर हम लाख् बहस करें, चाहे पूरा ; लोक सभा सिर्फ आतंकवाद पर बहस करती रहे, उससे कोई फर्क पड़ने वाला नहीं है। सिर्फ आतंकवाद को अवामी आतंकवाद का नाम देकर, उसे दुनिया से कभी खत्म नहीं व्ि: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;या जा सका है और न हमारे देश में खत्म किया जा सकता है।
अमरीका इराक के उन लोगों को दर्स दे रहा है कि आतंकवाद बुरी चीज है, आतंकवाद खत्म कर दो। जिनकी आजादी एक सुपर पावर ने ताकत के बल पर छीन ली, जिनको ग्:ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ;ुलाम बना दिया। मैं कहता हूं कि इराक और अफगानिस्तान में एक दिन में आतंकवाद खत्म हो जाएगा अगर काबिज़ ताकत वहां से चली जाएं। आतंकवाद उन मुल्कों में खत्म ह ो जाएगा। हमारे यहां भी जिन वजूहात से आतंकवाद उभरा है, जिन वजूहात से नौजवान खूनी इंसाफ मिलने से मायूस होकर हलाकत का रास्ता अख्तियार करता है, जिसमें :ठ्ठ द्धठ्ठध्ड्ढ;ाासूम लोग मारे जाते हों, चाहे पुलिस के जरिए मारे जाते हों, चाहे आतंकवादियों के जरिए मारे जाते हों। मैं उनकी घोर निन्दा करता हूं और मैं इसके सख्त खिला फ हूं। मैं उसके सख्त खिलाफ हूं। लेकिन हमें निहायत संजीदगी के साथ गौर करना पड़ेगा कि एक नौजवान किस वजह से बागी हो जाता है और अपनी जान देने पर आमादा ह: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;े जाता है। अगर हम उन वजहों को खत्म कर दें, तो टैरोरिज़्म अपने आप खत्म हो जाएगा। यह कहना कि भारत में टैरोरिज़्म है, आपने हजारों सालों से जिन्हें जानवर बनाकर रखा, उन्हें इस जन्म्:ठ्ठ हद्वड्ढ; में इंसान बनने का मौका भी नहीं देंगे और कहेंगे कि वे टैररिस्ट्स हैं।…( व्यवधान) आप लाख गालियां दे दीजिए, उनके ऊपर इसका कोई असर नहीं पड़ता। …( व्यवधान)
मैं एक बार फिर जोर देकर कहना चाहूंगा कि उन वजुहात पर गौर करें, जिन वजुहात से एक नौजवान आदमी अपनी जान देने पर आमादा हो जाता है, उनको खत्म कर दें, टैरो: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;रज़्म अपने आप खत्म हो जाएगा, दूसरी कोई शक्ल नहीं है।…( व्यवधान) उसका इलाज न ही पोटा है, न ही टाडा है।…( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप रिपीट कर रहे हैं।
श्री इलियास आज़मी : अगर टाडा और पोटा जैसे कानून ने टैरोरिज़्म पर लगाम लगाई हो, तो दोनों को मिलाकर एक कानून और बना दें और आपके दिमाग म्:ठ्ठ हद्वड्ढ;ें इंसान को जलील करने के लिए जो कानून हो सकता है, वह बना दें, लेकिन टैरोरिज़्म खत्म नहीं होगा।…( व्यवधान)
इन अल्फाज़ के साथ मैं अपनी बात समाप्त करता हूं। े श्री अविनाश राय खन्ना : माननीय उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, गृह मंत्री जी यहां बैठे हुए हैं।…( व्यवधान)
चौधरी लाल सिंह (उधमपुर) : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, जम्मू कश्मीर में भी आतंकवाद का मुद्दा बहुत गंभीर है। कृपया मुझे भी एक मिनट बोलने का समय दीजिए।… ( व्यवधान)
श्री अविनाश राय खन्ना : जब भी कोई घटना होती है तो कुछ कॉमन बयान सुनने को मिलते हैं कि स्टेट में रैड एलर्ट जारी हो गया है, सुराग मिल चुके हैं,…( BªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) एरिया के डीएम का तबादला हो गया है, एसएसपी का तबादला हो गया है,…( व्यवधान) सस्पैंड कर दिया गया है। लेकिन वहां फिर घ टनाएं होती हैं। राज्य में चाहे रैड एलर्ट हो चाहे डीएम का तबादला हो गया हो, पुराने घिसे-पिटे बयानों से न ही आतंकवाद खत्म होगा और न ही हम आंतरिक सुरक्षा को ठीक कर प्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ाएंगे।…( व्यवधान)
मैं आपके माध्यम से मंत्री जी का ध्यान लुधियाना के पास सुइया गांव की ओर दिलाना चाहता हूं। अगर मै जानना चाहूंगा तो मुझे यही जवाब मिल्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ेगा कि हमें प्रदेश से सूचना नहीं आई।…( व्यवधान) पुलिस द्वारा जो आतंकवादी मारे गए थे, उनका वहां मैमोरियल खड़ा कर दिया गया है, वहां उनके नाम ; अंकित हैं।…( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप हाउस में कागज नहीं दिखा सकते।
श्री अविनाश राय खन्ना : लेकिन केन्द्र सरकार और राज्य सरकार ने बयान देने के सिवाए कुछ नहीं किया। अगर वहां ऐसी घटनाएं होती रहेंगी, तो पंजाब की शान्ति भंग होने की तरफ चली जाएगी। मेरे जिले में एसजीपीसी के एक सदस्य को उसके घर के सामने सरेआम गोली से मार दिया गया। रोज बैंक डकैती, बच्चों के अपहरण जैसी घटन:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;एं हो रही हैं।…( व्यवधान)
मैं एक नई बात बताना चाहता हूं। सिक्युरिटी फोर्सेज़ के मोरेल को भी हमें ध्यान में रखना पड़ेगा। सिक्युरिटी फोर्सेज़ के मन में यह बात है कि जब उनकी :ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ;मोशन होती है तो बड़े पद जैसे डीआईजी, आईजी, एडी, एडीजी, डीजी आदि, उन पर सीआरपीएफ के लोगों को ऊपर नहीं लाया जाता, दूसरे लोगों को डैपुटेशन पर ल्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ाया जाता है और जिन्हें डैपुटेशन पर लाया जाता है, उन्हें उनकी रचना के बारे में, उनकी डफिकल्टीज़ के बारे में पता नहीं होता। मैं गृह मंत्री जी से कहना चाहूंगा कि सीअ् ाारपीएफ के लोगों की प्रमोशन का सिस्टम उस कैडर से ही हो ताकि जो लोग नीचे से ऊपर जाएंगे, उन्हें सिक्युरिटी फोर्सेज़ की डफिकल्टीज़ के बारे में पता होगा अ्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ौर वे लॉ एंड आर्डर के साथ अच्छी तरह डील कर सकेंगे।…( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपकी पार्टी का निर्धारित समय समाप्त हो गया है। आप अपनी बाते समाप्त कीजिए।
श्री अविनाश राय खन्ना : एक सर्वे के मुताबिक ब्रिटेन के ७७ प्रतिशत लोग आतंकवाद से प्रभावित हैं, डरे हुए हैं और सबसे ज्यादा नम्बर भारतीय लोगों का है, यहां ८२ प्रतिशत ल्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ोग आतंकवाद से डरे हुए हैं।
अमरीका के ६६ परसेंट और जर्मनी के ६४ परसेंट लोग आतंकवाद से डरे हुए हैं। अब आतंकवाद को कम करने के लिए, सिक्योरिटी की भावना को पैदा करने के लिए ह:ठ्ठ द्धठ्ठध्ड्ढ;ों लोगों और सिक्योरिटी फोर्सेस का मनोबल ऊंचा करना होगा, बढ़ाना होगा। …( व्यवधान) अगर अथॉरिटी खत्म हो गयी, सरकार की अथॉरिट:ठ्ठ हद्वड्ढ; खत्म हो गयी, तो इंटरनल सिक्योरिटी नहीं हो सकती। …( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : कांग्रेस पार्टी का निर्धारित टाइम खत्म हो चुका है ।
...( व्यवधान)
श्री अविनाश राय खन्ना : जो फोर्सेस हैं, यदि उनका डर खत्म हो गया तो इंटरनल सिक्योरिटी नहीं हो सकती इसलिए इसको हमें रिस्टोर करना होगा।
चौधरी लाल सिंह : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, आप हमें भी बोलने का समय दीजिए। …( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपकी पार्टी का निर्धारित टाइम खत्म हो गया है।
...( व्यवधान)
चौधरी लाल सिंह : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, यह पार्टी का सवाल नहीं है। …( व्यवधान) जम्मू -कश्मीर का सवाल है। …( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) …* उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : रामदास जी, आप अपनी बात एक मिनट में खत्म कीजिए।
...( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप मनिस्टर साहब को लिखकर दे दीजिए।
...( व्यवधान)
* Not Recorded.
श्री रामदास आठवले : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, हमें भारतवर्ष पर इसलिए अभिमान है कि ढाई हजार साल पहले भारत में भगवान बुद्ध का जन्म हुआ जिन्होंने इस देश को शांति का स्:ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ;ंदेश दिया। लेकिन सारी दुनिया को शांति का संदेश देने वाले भारत की स्थिति आज बहुत खतरनाक बनती जा रही है। इस देश में आतंकवाद, जातिवाद, नक्सलाइट और क:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ैमी मूवमैंट बढ़ता जा रहा है। एक आदमी को दूसरे आदमी की रक्षा करने की भावना रखनी चाहिए, उनकी रक्षा के लिए प्लानिंग करनी चाहिए लेकिन आज एक आदमी, दूस्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;रे आदमी, समूह, धर्म, जाति आदि सबको खत्म करने की प्लानिंग कर रहा है। पार्लियामैंट में हम सब लोग बैठे हुए हैं। माननीय गृह मंत्री श्री शिवराज पाटिल जी यह:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ं मौजूद हैं। प्रधान मंत्री डा. मन मोहन सिंह जी देश को बहुत अच्छी तरह से चला रहे हैं। एनडीए सरकार ने अपने छ: साल के शासन में पूरे देश को बर्बाद कर दिया, लेकिन हम सब लो ;ग …( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : रामदास जी, आप कहां जा रहे हैं ? आप अपने टॉपिक पर बोलें। आपका एक मिनट हो चुका है इसलिए अब आप अपना भाषण खत्म की: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;जए।
...( व्यवधान)
श्री रामदास आठवले : मैं खत्म कर रहा हूं लेकिन पहले आप मुझे आतंकवाद खत्म करने दीजिए। मेरा कहना है कि उग्रवाद को खत्म करने के लिए हम सबको पार्लियामैंट म:ठ्ठ द्धत्द; पार्टी को अलग रखना चाहिए। हम सबकी जाति, धर्म, पार्टी आदि अलग-अलग है लेकिन हमें भारतवर्ष पर इसलिए अभिमान है कि हमने बाबा साहेब अम्बेडकर के संविधान्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ; को स्वीकार किया है। अगर हम बाबा साहेब अम्बेडकर के संविधान के मुताबिक चलें तो देश में शांति प्रस्थापित हो सकती है। आज लोगों के साथ अन्याय हो रहा है।
* …( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : उनका नाम रिकार्ड में नहीं जायेगा। वे सदन में उपस्थित नहीं हैं।
...( व्यवधान)
श्री रामदास आठवले : मैं आपका ज्यादा वक्त नहीं लेना चाहता। इस आतंकवाद को खत्म करने के लिए सरकार जो भी कानून बनायेगी, उसमें रिपब्लिकन पार्टी पूरा सहयो ग देगी। हमारा कहना है कि यहां टाडा या पोटा जैसे कानून बनाने से काम नहीं चलेगा। …( व्यवधान) समाज में परिवर्तन करने का काम भी हम सबको करन्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ा है। …( व्यवधान) जो भी टैरोरिस्ट एक्टीविटीज है, उन एक्टीविटीज को खत्म करने के लिए हमें कोई न कोई प्लानिंग करने की आवश्यकता है। इसके लिए भ:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;रत सरकार को कदम उठाना *Expunged as ordered by the Chair चाहिए। …( व्यवधान) आतंकवादी मूवमैंट को खत्म करने के लिए हम सब लोगों को एक साथ होना चाहिए। …( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except the speech of hon. Home Minister.
(Interruptions) …* उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : सब पार्टीज का निर्धारित टाइम खत्म हो चुका है।
...( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपका बात रिकार्ड में कुछ नहीं जा रही है।
...( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मैं आपको क्लेरीफिकेशन पूछने के लिए टाइम दे दूंगा।
...( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आठवले साहब, आप बैठ जाइये।
...( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is not the way to address the Chair to have time. Please sit down.
… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ramdas Bandu Athawale, please sit down now.
… (Interruptions)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : वह बाद में आपको क्लेरफिकेशन दे देंगे।
…( व्यवधान)
श्री राम कृपाल यादव (पटना) : सर, जहानाबाद वाली घटना बिहार में हुई है। इतनी बड़ी घटना घटी है और क्या हम अपनी बात भी नहीं रखेंगे ?…( व्यवधान)
* Not Recorded.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing more will go on record.
(Interruptions) …* SHRI ANANTH KUMAR (BANGALORE SOUTH): Sir, it should be expunged.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing is being recorded. I have already said that only the speech of the hon. Home Minister should be recorded, and will be recorded.
(Interruptions) …* उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मैंने होम मनिस्टर साहब से रिक्वेस्ट कर दी है, जो कोई भी माननीय सदस्य अगर यह महसूस करता है कि उसे समय नहीं मिला है तो वे ब्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ाद में जो भी उनका बहुत जरूरी प्वाइंट हो, इनकी स्पीच के बाद क्लेरफिकेशन इनसे ले सकते हैं।
…( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am sorry, and I cannot allow it.
… (Interruptions)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : वह बाद में आपको क्लेरफिकेशन दे देंगे।
…( व्यवधान)
* Not Recorded.
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL): Sir, the issue of internal security was discussed in the Rajya Sabha. … (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not disturb the hon. Minister.
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: The issue of internal security is now being discussed in the Lok Sabha also. … (Interruptions)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आपके होम मनिस्टर साहब खड़े हैं।
…( व्यवधान)
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I think that the issue of internal security should be discussed more often than we have been discussing in the Parliament. Different aspects of internal security should be discussed here. At times, we concentrate our attention on incidents. It is necessary to consider the incidents also, but if we do not adopt a holistic approach to the problem of internal security, then we would not be able to come to correct conclusions. Therefore, it would be useful to consider it more often, and consider the different aspects relating to the internal security in the Parliament.
Sir, many hon. Members participated in this debate, and I would like to say that they have made very good points. All the points that they have made are going to help the Government to come to correct conclusions, and to make correct policies. The hon. Members here made their statements, and in their statements they explained the points of view that are acceptable to them as well as the points of view on which they had differences of opinion. They had the opportunity to explain as to how the other points of view are not correct. This has made my job very easy because the points that were raised by a few hon. Members were contradicted by some other hon. Members, and in the process the thesis and anti-thesis have turned it into a kind of synthesis.
The points made by Members on one side are contradicted by the Members on the other side. In the process, they have presented a picture which is of a balanced nature, and which can be easily accepted by the Government.
I would like to thank all hon. Members for having taken so much interest in this debate. I was not sitting here in the House because I was required to be in the Rajya Sabha to attend to the same kind of a debate. But I have read all the statements that were made by the Members. I am indeed very happy to say that the points made by them are very valid and we are going to make use of them. I would like to congratulate the Members. I would like to thank them also.
Before I go to some of the important points, because I may not be able to cover all the points, I would like to make two-three submissions to this House. One submission is, whenever a matter relating to internal security is discussed they say that previously a few Districts were affected and now a large number of Districts are affected. They are talking in terms of Districts, not in terms of Talukas or villages or police thanas. This is presenting a distorted picture. If a village in a District is affected, it is not possible for us to say that the entire District is affected. If a taluka in a District is affected, it will be wrong to say that the entire District is affected. This is exactly what is being said that so many Districts are affected. We are saying that there is a corridor being created. These kinds of statements made either by the Home Ministry or hon. Members or the Ministers like me will create wrong impression. It will c reate a kind of scare in the minds of the people, which has to be avoided. I would like to make a submission that let us not talk in terms of Districts; let us talk in terms of villages or in terms of at least police thanas. How many police thanas are affected, that will give a more correct picture.
When incidents happen, they are very bad incidents. We cannot be happy or feel proud of what has happened in some places. What happened in Srinagar, what happened in Delhi, what happened in Jharkhand, what happened in Giridih, are the incidents about which I cannot say that I can be proud of and I can justify what has happened over there. We are sorry about it. Sometimes your head is not held high but it is lowered when something of this nature happens. I would like to say that so many people have died and we are sorry. We condole the deaths. We sympathise with the people. We have taken steps to help the victims of these incidents. We have given them compensation. We have given them help. If they require more help, that can be given too.
But, if we concentrate on incidents and then try to assess the situation in the country as a whole with respect to internal security, will it be possible for us to come to the correct conclusions? On the basis of incidents, it is not possible. We shall have to take the number of incidents that have taken place, the number of cases that have occurred in the country. It is only after taking into account the number of cases, the number of incidents, the number casualties, that we would be able to say whether the situation is improving or whether it is deteriorating.
17.00 hrs. But concentrating on one incident is not going to be possible. If Parliament is attacked, that incident itself cannot go to show that everything has gone out of control. Supposing an incident has taken place in Jehanabad or Srinagar or Delhi, it is not possible to say that the situation has gone out of control totally. Those are bad incidents and something more has to be done, and if we do not do it, we will be guilty and yet on the basis of those incidents, assessing the internal security situation in the country cannot be properly done.
17.01 hrs. (Shri Giridhar Gamang in the Chair ) Let us also consider as to what was happening a few years before and as to what is happening today. Has the number gone up or has the number come down? It is only by comparing the situation today with the situation which was existing in the past, we will be able to conclude as to whether the situation has improved or as to whether the situation has deteriorated.
One more thing which has to be kept in mind is the number of people living in the country. We have to compare the statistics about murders, dacoities and the law and order cases in the country with those incidents and the number of persons killed in those countries. Only by considering these facts with respect to other countries relating to the number of people living in those countries, we will be able to form a correct opinion. I am not saying that it is better than what it was in the past or it is worse than what it was in the past. I am not saying that the situation here is better than the situation in other countries and things like that. I am just presenting to the House as to how we should assess the internal security situation. This is really very important.
I have no doubt that the hon. Members who spoke here did have those things at the back of their mind and keeping those facts in mind, they have made a few very important suggestions. One of the important suggestions was made by the hon. Member, Shri Nikhil Kumar - I do not know whether he is here or not. He knows the job. He knows the situation. He did say and the other hon. Members also did say that police force should be strengthened.
Now, we have the `police' with the State Governments. We have the `police' with the Union Government. We have defence forces also with the Union Government. The State Governments and the Union Government are trying to expand these police forces. There are nearly 22 lakh officers and men in the police forces with the State Governments and the Union Government. But these people have to control the situation which arises in the entire country as such, and the number of people living here is nearly 108 crores. The ratio of the police to man here is to be seen. In some countries if it is one thousand or 200 or 300 or 400 police force per one lakh persons; in our country, it is just 112 or 115 police force per one lakh persons who have to be controlled. So, in order to increase the number of police, we have to take a number of steps. The first step which we have taken is to allow the higher battalion to be raised in the country. Previously, we were giving Rs. 13 crore, now we are giving Rs. 25 crore for raising each battalion in the State. We have allowed nearly 55 higher battalion to be raised. Now, we have taken a decision to raise 25 more higher battalion to be raised. The State Governments can raise them; they can retain them. And if necessary, they can give these battalions to the adjoining States for such purposes.
The point I am trying to make is that the job of increasing the number of men and officers in the police through the States is going on. Some kind of decision was taken by the Union Government also to expand the police force which is with us. Nearly 250 battalions are likely to be raised by us.
One of the most important points which I would like to put before the hon. Members is this and I would request them to bear this in mind while assessing the situation. The Army does not man the entire border of ours. Please remember that the Police mans these borders -- the Bangladesh border of 4000 kilometres, the border in the Western region, the border in the Himalayas and others. It is the police force which is there in the front and on the international borders and not the Army. This has to be understood. It is only on the Line of Control that the Army is there in the first rank. The Police is there but it is not in the first line. But in other places, it is the BSF or the SSB or the ITBP. These forces are protecting the borders. When they are protecting the borders, they are providing the internal security. They are not allowing the people to come inside and disturb us. It has been very difficult to stop them from coming and yet they have been gre atly successful. In the Western region, the fence is erected; in the Eastern region, the fence is in the process of getting erected. Half of the job is done and the remaining half of the job will be completed in 2006. This way, the Police are protecting the borders. The Police is not just protecting the cities and villages. We are giving them battalions. But they are doing the main job on the borders. This Police which is there, is also helping the State Governments at the time of elections and to meet some difficult situation.
I would like to submit to this House that some of the States, the Naxal affected States like Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, a few districts of Maharashtra, Bihar, a few areas of Uttar Pradesh, Uttaranchal and a few places in Madhya Pradesh are also affected. These States have been given 26 battalions. It means 26,000 men and officers have been given. They are at the disposal of the State Government. They are expected to be used by the State Governments in order to control the Naxalite activities. In this fashion, we are trying to control this situation through the police force. We are not only doing this thing but we are in the process of modernising the Force. A lot of money amounting to nearly Rs.3,000 crore is being given to the State Governments to modernise their forces. We are spending a lot of money, nearly Rs.3,000 crore, on modernising the forces. These funds are given to the State Governments. I am sorry to say that some of the State Governments have not even used them. Only some State Governments have used them. We are requesting them to use these funds for giving better training, better equipment, better communication facilities, better vehicles, better armoured vehicles and things like that. I would like to say that it is the States in the North-Eastern region which have used it. But the bigger States have not used this amount of money. Our request to them is to use this amount of money which is given to them. They are given funds for having more police stations; they are given funds for having communication system, the POLNET system.
Regarding equipment that are necessary for communicating and to see that the police thanas should be able to communicate with the districts, districts should be able to communicate with the States, States should be able to communicate with the Union, we have established a POLNET system, and through that POLNET system, the communication system throughout the country is being established. It has to be used. As far as the communication up to the district level and the State level is concerned, it is complete. But from the district level to the village level, it is not complete, and so it is also not being done.
We have also said that in order to help the police, we would like to give them intelligence. We are giving them intelligence; we are also giving them armoured vehicles, which they are using. They are using armoured vehicles in the naxal-affected areas, in Jammu and Kashmir and in the North-Eastern States. Not only that, we have also told that we will give them helicopters. And, helicopters have been given to them in order to evacuate the injured persons, to take the injured persons from the places where they are injured to the hospitals and things like that.
The point that I am trying to make with respect to this is that as far as strengthening the forces is concerned, modernising the forces is concerned and giving help to the State Governments for strengthening their own police is concerned, the points which have been made by some of the hon. Members, specially Mr. Nikhil Kumar --he is not there now, but he was trying to say that; it would have been better if he could get more time because he is the person who knows it -- would help the Government. Now, this point is very well taken, and this is how we are doing on that.
Sir, I would respectfully submit to this House that we do not claim to know everything. We will be able to help ourselves by their suggestions on this point. This is as far as trying to control violence in the country with the help of police and with the help of forces in the country, is concerned.
But I would like to say, having said this much on this point, it was very rightly put. I think, it was by Mr. Chakraborty, who delivered a very good speech. He said: "You would not be able to control violence with the help of bullets." The hon. Member who is sitting in the first row also said the same thing. You cannot control violence only with the help of bullet and gun. It was very well said, and I agree with them. They did make so many very good points, and that was one of the most important aspects of the debate.
Sir, they said that if the land reforms have not been able to carry on in a proper manner, if the surplus land is not distributed in a proper manner, if the house sites which have to be given to the poor people are not given properly, if the employment is not provided to them, if the Advasis living in the forests are not allowed to use the forest produce on which they have been living for thousands of years, it would be very difficult to control the violence. Now, the Advasis do not destroy the forests. Those who live outside destroy the forests. The Advasis do not destroy the forest; they in fact, protect the forests; they are in love with the trees, greenery, forests and the atmosphere over there. So, if we do not do all these things, it would be very difficult for us to control violence and the anger in the minds of the young people who come from the forest areas, who come from the rural areas and see what is happening at other places, how people live. And, if the anger burst in their hearts and if they take to arms, well the remedy does not lie in the barrel of a gun or bullet. The remedy lies in persuading them, in telling them and creating a situation in the country in such a fashion that they do not feel angry or they do not take the arms. Now, this is what the hon. Members said. The main point, which was made by many of the hon. Members, was this.
But they spoke very little on strengthening the police forces or modernising the police forces. A few hints were certainly given. But the main emphasis was on brining about economic development, doing economic justice, doing social justice, and doing political justice, and freeing the society from the ills with which it has been suffering for all these years and through that method, trying to control and contain the terrorist activities and the naxalite activity.
Hon. Members were very right when they said that we have to go to the root cause of the problem and find out why they are becoming terrorists and why they are becoming violent. Only then, we will be able to do that. That is a very correct approach. It is easier said than done, and yet, it is the correct approach. Without it, there is no solution to the problem. If we do not do that, it will be difficult.
Sometimes, people say, ‘take the gun and take action’. What does that mean? It means, take the gun and fire at others. If one is maimed or if one is killed because of that – one bullet fired at one person – it will create more naxalites and more violent people. His family members will also become naxalites.
So, the suggestion given by the hon. Members here are very valid and I am very happy to find that the hon. Members were not making suggestions in the air, without understanding as to how it has to be done. They were very correct; they said that this has to be done by the State Governments. They said that we have to ask the State Governments to do it. It is very correct that the land reforms, distribution of land, tenancy laws, ceiling laws are the laws made by the State legislatures; they have to be implemented by the State Governments. Wherever land reforms have taken place in a proper manner, the level of violence is lower. This fact is also correct. This has to be very clearly understood by us.
So, we have to take action. What can the Government of India do in this respect? It was suggested by the hon. Members that we have to ask the State Governments, give directions to the State Governments to implement the tenancy laws and the ceiling laws, and distribute the surplus land in a proper manner. Yes, this has to be done. I do think that the Government of India will find no difficulty in suggesting to the State Governments that they should be done. The Government of India is allowed to consult the State Governments and tell them that this has to be done and please do it. This is not an order, but this is consultation; the entire country is with us and with all of you, the Government of India can do it.
May I also request the hon. Members to ask their own Governments in the States to pay a little more attention to this aspect because that will help? They will hear the hon. Members. They cannot just neglect the suggestions of the hon. Members. They will hear the hon. Members and so, I will request all of you to do the same thing.
The point is that economic development is necessary and it has to be done through the State Governments. … (Interruptions) We will all help you in this matter. There is no doubt about it and we will certainly do that. Strengthening the police force alone is not sufficient. Bringing about economic development is necessary.
The third point is this. Some hon. Members said that socio-economic development and socio-economic justice is also responsible for that. Imagine that you go to a village. It is fortunate that it is not happening in the cities, but if you go to the villages, you may find that a person is treated as an untouchable. A dog can be touched, but a human being cannot be touched! So, that person’s anger bursts out. He feels that he is being treated badly. There is no solution to this problem by using force or law.
It is the correct approach to life which is necessary. So, economic justice is necessary; social justice is necessary and political justice is also necessary. If people come to the conclusion that through elections, only a particular kind of people could come, they try to adopt different methods, and that is where, this has to be done. But this cannot be done only by the State Governments or only by the Union Government. This has to be done by the entire society as such. If it is not done by the society as such and by all the hon. Members in the society, then this solution will prove to be less efficacious.
So three things, namely, economic development, social justice and political justice also has to be done and only then this problem can be reduced.
Now there were some other points which were raised by the hon. Members. One of the Members said that you have repealed POTO and that is why you have lost the instrument which you could have used for controlling the violence. Is this a fact? I am very happy that immediately after that speech was delivered by the hon. Member, there were other Members who got up and gave instances when POTA was in existence and even then at so many places the incidents took place. Today also Mr. Nikhil Kumar did say this. I am not going into the details. I do not want to touch the sensitive part of it. I do not want to hurt anybody’s feelings. When the POTA was in existence, the incidents did take place. We have to realise that Great Britain has stringent laws. The Government of Great Britain – I think Mr. Kapil Sibal spoke about that – wanted to change the existing law and allow the Government to retain the arrested person in the jail for nearly 160 days or some thing like that. But the Parliament of Great Britain did not pass that law. This happened immediately after the incidents which had happened in the subway over there. Now this has to be borne in mind.
Sir, I remember a story which is very interesting. There were two ladies who were very fond of their husbands. One lady came to the other lady and said that her husband is a great hunter. She further said that when he goes to the forest, he takes the gun but he does not take the bullet. He shows the gun to the tiger and the tiger runs away. The other lady said that this is nothing. She said that her husband is a better hunter than your husband. He does not take the gun but takes the licence in his pocket and shows it to the tiger.
It is like this. You are talking about this law. If the law is there but you are not using it properly, what is the use of having the law? The law is required. I would like to submit to this House that there are many laws like Indian Penal Code, Unlawful Assemblies Act, Armed Forces Special Power Act and many other laws are in existence. So, if POTA is not there, it is not going to make any change. Whatever was in POTA, is there in other laws. What was in POTA and which was most objectionable was the theory that it is not the prosecution but the defence which has to prove that he is not guilty. That theory was most objectionable and that theory has gone with POTA. So to say that you have repealed POTA therefore you do not have the will to control violence is not the correct assessment of the situation and it should not be accepted. The laws are there. We are not handicapped because of the existing laws. We are in a position to control it. T hose who are in the Government are saying that they are in a position to use the existing laws and controlling the situation. Those who are sitting on the Opposition Benches, they do not have to do it. The people who are sitting on the Ruling Benches have to do it. We are in a position to do it and we are doing it… (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN : You can ask after the reply. He is not yielding. I am not allowing you. Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) …* SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, this is how my link is broken… (Interruptions)
Sir, as far as the law is concerned, Shri Nikhil Kumar suggested that the subject of Police and Law and Order should be brought from the State List to the Concurrent List. This is an issue which had been considered by previous Governments and is still being considered at different levels. Sometimes we do feel that at some places incidents are taking place and the Government of India is finding it very difficult to send their Forces to control the situation unless there is an invitation. When there is an invitation to this effect, there is no problem. Or, when the Government in a State has been removed, then Forces could be sent. But these invitations generally come and the Forces are sent. We have no difficulty in that. But removing a State Government and then sending the Forces is an extreme step which should not be taken. It is not always possible for the Union Forces to go and control the situation because they are not always in the field. Those who are in the field they are in a better position to handle it. The Forces are going from there. But this is an issue on which a debate has been going on and the position of the present Government is that we would not like to disturb the situation which exists today unless and until all States concerned, or a majority of the States concerned ask for it, or they say that it should be done. Otherwise, it would create unnecessary problems.
* Not Recorded.
Sometimes we do feel that we are very much handicapped because incidents are taking place and we have the Forces standing hardly a kilometre away from the place where incidents are taking place and yet we are not able to use the services of those Forces. Such a situation did occur in the past and our friends from Uttar Pradesh know as to when such a thing happened. Still we are saying, "look, this is an issue which has to be very carefully dealt with and we will deal with it in a very careful manner". We would like the hon. Members to give us the guidance as to how to deal with it. We have our own ideas and we would implement our ideas but if the hon. Members have their ideas then it would help us. What has been happening today is that, I have said this while replying to the debate last time on Internal Security, the situation Jammu and Kashmir has improved; the situation in the North-Eastern States has improved and that the Naxalite activities also appeared to have got reduced. But today I am not in a position to say that the Naxalite activities have reduced. It has gone up a little. But the situation in Jammu and Kashmir has definitely improved. The situation in the North-Eastern States has improved. The incidents that are taking place here and there do not make the totality. They do not give the correct picture. This is the situation.
What we have to bear in mind is that this is a place which should not be used for blaming each other and for slinging arrows at each other. This is a place which should be used for developing a consensus. An hon. Member was saying that this is a partisan approach. I am not using it as a partisan issue. I could have replied in a very bitter language to some of the speeches, to some of the statements made by hon. Members here. But I have not referred to a single point because I wanted to avoid bitterness and that is why I have not said anything at all. I could have said that these are politically motivated speeches giving no ideas at all. But I have not said that. I am saying that they have their views and it is a different matter if I am accepting them or not accepting them. But then I want the views of the hon. Members. This is a forum which could be used for developing a consensus which could be used for the betterment of the country.
What are the problems? The real problem that is faced by me is not the number of incidents that are taking place and the number of casualties taking place because of such incidents, but the devices that are being used. Grenades are being used, grenades are thrown. Secondly, car bombs are being used and the third is that landmines are being used. How to deal with these things? We have our own ideas and we would do it. But these devices are being used.
Supposing more difficult weapons or more dangerous weapons would be used tomorrow, then how to do it? That is really a question that has to be answered by us.
Now, our friends from Bihar spoke about Jehanabad issue. Jehanabad is one of the places in Bihar. There are places like Koraput also. There is the Giridih issue. Now, what actually has happened? We have a few police stations and we have towns or cities where a few policemen are posted. There may be ten policemen or 100 policemen in a police station. Supposing 300 or 400 men or more in number come there in police uniform and attack, then it becomes a war like situation. We are not afraid of such a situation. We have the strength to control them and we will control them. But when this happens, then what is to be done? That is something which we shall have to consider.
My opinion is that the best remedy for all these things is the intelligence. If we have the intelligence, we would be in a position to control the situation. Intelligence is available at the national level. International intelligence is also available. But unfortunately, the State intelligence, and more than that, the local intelligence, are not available. Now, it is necessary to develop local intelligence.
How do we develop local intelligence? It has to be developed through the local police and the local machinery available there, and that kind of local intelligence will be operational intelligence. That means, it is intelligence on which operations can take place. An hon. Member was saying that we had the information six months back. The only thing the terrorists have in their favour is the time and place. They can choose the time and place and they can attack at their will. It is exactly these which is not always known to us. We know that something of this nature is likely to happen but where and at what time it is going to happen and what exactly is the procedure are not known. We are not always correct on that and that is why, we have to collect intelligence on such things.
I am saying that these things are happening in the villages. Villages are attacked by, say, 100 or 200 of them. The forests are used for hiding but the city can also be used for this purpose as it has happened in Delhi and Srinagar. For terrorists, cities are like forests. It is easy for the terrorists to hide there. It is not very difficult for the terrorists or those who are involved in violent activities to hide in the cities. Cities can protect them; they can give them the cover and the cities can also help them to counter that kind of an attack.
Now, we are thinking of providing security in mega cities and small cities also. We will decide how it has to be done. In other countries, there are cameras at every corner of the roads and at every cross roads. There are underground cameras. There are cameras in the buildings. Is it possible for us to do like that? Then, people can help us in this regard. The trade unions, the unions of shopkeepers and people in the industries can help us. School teachers can help us. If they find any device kept somewhere and if they think that it can explode, it is for them to find it out and inform the police. And it is necessary also. In some countries, they have big control room. From such a big control room, they watch every lane of the entire city. Is it possible for us to do like that? We are in a position to do it and we will do it. But this is the kind of thinking that is going on over here.
The last point which I want to mention before I conclude my speech is that terrorists create terror and they live on that terror. We should not contribute to their capacity in creating terror. We are not giving them weapons directly. We are not joining hands with them to attack anybody.
But we are talking about these things in such a fashion that terror is created. If we say that so many districts are affected, corridor is going to be there, this is happening and that is happening, then terror is created. Anything that is happening in one part of the country is seen in all other parts of the country. Naturally, people living there think that it has happened in their neighbourhood. When they see that it has happened in their neighbourhood, then terror is transported from the place where it took place to every other part of the country. Are we contributing to it or not? We shall have to develop our own policy. The Government cannot say to people, do this thing or do not do this thing. That is not the policy of the Government. We leave it to the people who are in a position to do it.
Here, we heard hon. Members saying this has happened or that had happened. One of the hon. Members, while speaking here, said that when that incident took place in Delhi, the entire bazaar was on flame, the entire city was burning and that the people did not come out on the streets. Fortunately, this did not happen. People celebrated Eid and other festivals. In spite of the fact that it happened, people did come out and they did celebrate Eid. They did show that they were bold enough to face these kinds of incidents. They did show that.
So, my request would be, unwittingly we should not contribute towards increasing the terror by exaggerating the facts, which the terrorists want to increase. Some thing has happened. So, by all means inform the people. But do not inform the people in an exaggerated form, do not inform the people in such a form that it increases the terror.
On the incidents that happened in Giridih and Jharkhand, I am not taking a political stand. Different States were ruled by different parties. We are not blaming these parties. Now, the situation has to be handled by all of us in a united manner. With united efforts we will be in a better position to handle this situation, rather than criticising one another. If you want to criticise the Government, if you want to criticise the Home Minister, you have the right to do so. It is my duty to hear that criticism and learn from that. If you want to criticise the police, you have the right to do so. The police will hear it and learn from it. But if you are not going to criticise the terrorists and if you are not trying to find out the causes and reasons as to why it has happened, the situation is not going to be controlled. So, the approach should be to criticise the terror and terrorists, to find out the causes and suggest solutions.
At the same time, do not spare the Government, do not spare the Home Minister or the police. But if you criticise only the Government, only the Home Minister and only the police, the result produced would not be beneficial.
I do not have anything more than this to say. Once again I thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate.
चौधरी लाल सिंह : महोदय, मैं माननीय मंत्री जी से जानना चाहता हूं कि जब से शांति वार्ता शुरू हुई है तब से आज तक कितने ट्रेंड पाकिस्तानी जम्म:छठ्ठह द्वड्ढ;-कश्मीर में बैठे हुए हैं और इस वार्ता के बाद कितने वापिस बुलाए गए हैं?
जब मैं अपने संसदीय क्षेत्र के दूर-दराज के क्षेत्रों में जाता हूं तो वहां के एसपीओज़, सीआरपीएफ और पैरामलिटरी फोर्सिस के जवान मुझसे कहते हैं कि यह उनक:ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ; मोरल डयूटी है कि वे हमें बताएं कि हम उन दूर-दराज के इलाकों में न जाएं। वहां जो एसपीओज़, बीडीओज़, गाड्र्स आज तक तैनात किए गए हैं, वे कांस्टेबल्स के बराबर होते ह:ड्ढठ्ठ हद्वड्ढ;, लेकिन जब किसी दुर्घटना में उनकी मृत्यु हो जाती है तो उन्हें मुआवजे के तौर पर कुछ नहीं मिलता, क्योंकि वे नौकरी पर पक्के नहीं होते हैं।
सभापति जी, मैं जानना चाहता हूं कि उनके लिए सरकार ने क्या किया है? रिक्रूटमेंट करके देश में अनेक कंपनियां खड़ी की जा रही हैं, लेकिन जो देशभक्त इ ;लाके हैं, जिनके बारे में पता भी है और जहां के लोग आज भी मिलीटेंसी के खिलाफ लड़ रहे हैं, जैसे डोडा, ऊधमपुर और कठुआ, उन इलाकों में रिक्रूटमेंट क्यों नह:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ; हो रही है? इसके साथ ही मैं यह भी जानना चाहता हूं कि जो हमारा एरिया है, जो आक्यूपाइड कश्मीर में मीरपुर और आजाद कश्मीर एरिया है, उसका झगड़ा आज तक स्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;ॉर्ट आउट क्यों नहीं किया जा रहा है?
सभापति जी, लास्ट में जानना चाहता हूं कि मैं, लाल सिंह, इस हाउस का मैम्बर, अपने एरिये में, दूरदराज के एरिये में, जहां गाड़ियां नहीं चलती हैं, जहां ८६ किलो:ठ्ठद्धठ्ठ ध्ड्ढ;ाीटर, ६८ किलोमीटर, ५६ किलोमीटर, २० किलोमीटर और ३० किलोमीटर पैदल जाना पड़ता है और रातें काटनी पड़ती हैं, वहां जाने के लिए क्या सरकार ने मेरे लिए ि ;कसी सिक्योरिटी फोर्सेस की या होम मनिस्ट्री से कोई ऐसी व्यवस्था की है, जिससे मैं अपनी कांस्टीटयूएंसी में सुरक्षित जा पाऊं ?
श्री मोहन सिंह : सभापति जी, माननीय गृह मंत्री जी ने बहुत विस्तारपूर्वक अपनी बातें कहीं। यह बहस दो मुद्दों पर थी, लेकिन इकट्ठी हो गई - एक तो जिसे ह:ठ्ठ द्धठ्ठध्ड्ढ;ा नक्सलवादी गतवधि कहते हैं और दूसरी आतंकवादी गतवधि। नक्सलवाद शब्द तो अब पुराना हो गया। अब इसके लिए लोग दूसरा शब्द इस्तेमाल करने लगे हैं, लेा:हत्द्ध ह;कन मैं जो कार्यवाही सूची में लिखा है, उसी शब्द का इस्तेमाल करूंगा। हमें नक्सलवादी और आतंकवादी दोनों गतवधियों को अलग-अलग देखना चाहिए। आतंव् ावादी गतवधियां, सीमापार से आयोजित और प्रायोजित की जाती हैं और दूसरे प्रकार की गतवधियां, जिन्हें नक्सलवादी गतवधियां कहते हैं, व्:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;े अपने देश की मिट्टी से, अपनी परिस्थितियों से उपजे असंतोष से पैदा होती हैं, ऐसा मेरा मानना है।
महोदय, गृह मंत्री जी ने बताया कि नक्सलवादी हिंसा में कमी आई है या नियंत्रण कर लिया गया है। मेरा इस विषय में दूसरी तरह का मूल्यांकन है। जो दो ग्रुप न्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;क्सलवादियों के थे, वे संगठित हो गए हैं, उनकी ग्रुपिंग हो गई है और वे इकट्ठे हो गए हैं। उनके रिश्ते सीमा पार नेपाल में माओवादी गतवधियों में लिप्त संगठन स्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;े बन गए हैं। इसलिए उन्होंने छोटी-मोटी घटनाओं को छोड़कर, बड़ी-बड़ी घटनाओं को अंजाम देने का काम हाथ में लिया है, फिर चाहे वह भोर की घटना हो, गिरीडीह की घटना ह: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;े या जहानाबाद की घटना हो। यह उनका एक सफल ऑप्रेशन है। इस सफलतापूर्वक आप्रेशन और तकनीक को हम उस तकनीक और गतवधि से नहीं जोड़ सकते, जो अपने देश के ब ;ाहर से की जा रही आतंकवादी गतवधियां है। अपने देश के बाहर से प्रायोजित आतंकवाद को खत्म करने की जो हमारी तकनीक होगी, उसे हम नक्सलवादी गतवि: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ध से निपटने के लिए इस्तेमाल नहीं कर सकते, क्योंकि नक्सलवादी गतवधियां देश के बाहर से नहीं, बल्कि अपने देश के अंदर उपजे असंतोष का परिणाम हैं।
महोदय, जैसा गृह मंत्री जी ने अपने उत्तर में अभी एक ‘परसुएशन’ शब्द का इस्तेमाल किया। उस परसुएशन के तरीके के तहत, एक टेबल पर, आमने-सामने बैठकर, ज्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ो बात करके समस्या के समाधान का तरीका है, क्या उसे नहीं अपनाया जा सकता? जैसा अभी श्री सुभाष घीशिंग के साथ बात हुई और कार्रवाई को अंजाम दि या गया, क्या उसी तरह से नक्सलवादी संगठनों से बातचीत नहीं की जा सकती?
महोदय, आंध्रा प्रदेश में यह बातचीत प्रारम्भ हुई, लेकिन एक-दो घटनाओं के चलते, उस प्रक्रिया को समाप्त कर दिया गया, उस पद्धति को तोड़ दिया गया और यह कहा गया ा:हत् द्धह;क आक्रमणकारी ढंग से इन गतवधिय़ों पर काबू पाया जा सकता है - ऐसा सोचना ठीक नहीं है। इसलिए हम माननीय गृह मंत्री जी से पूछना चाहते हैं कि जो संगठन आन्त्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;रिक कारणों से, देश के अंदर उपजी परिस्थितियों से तंग आकर नक्सलवादी हिंसा में लिप्त हो गए हैं, क्या उनसे भारत सरकार, टेबल पर आमने-सामने बैठकर बात करेगी, भल्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;े ही राज्य सरकारों की मदद से यह कार्रवाई शुरू करे ? दूसरी बात यह कि हम अपनी पुलिस का आधुनिकीकरण करने जा रहे हैं। यह बात ठीक है कि हम अपनी पुलिस व् ाा आधुनिकीकरण करें और करना भी चाहिए।
हमारे देश में जो नेशनल सिक्योरिटी गार्ड था, वह इसी तरह की गतवधियों से जूझने के लिए प्रारम्भ में बनाया गया। बीएसएफ की अपनी अलग धारणा थी आ:ड्ढद्ध ठ्ठध्ड्ढ;र सीआरपी की अपनी अलग धारणा है। सीआरपी को ट्रेनिंग देकर हम उस लायक नहीं बना सकते, जिस तरह नेशनल सिक्योरिटी गार्ड के लोगों को बना सकते हैं। इसा:हत्द्ध ह;लए हम माननीय गृह मंत्री जी से आग्रह पूर्वक पूछना चाहते हैं कि नेशनल सिक्योरिटी गार्ड के बेस को हिन्दुस्तान के उन सभी बड़े राज्यों में स्थापित करने की, जहां इस त: द्धड्ढ;ह की परिस्थितियों से हम मुकाबला कर रहे हैं, वहां सरकार की कोई कोशिश है। ये दो प्रश्न हम माननीय गृह मंत्री जी से पूछना चाहते हैं?
श्री राम कृपाल यादव : सभापति महोदय, इस महत्वपूर्ण चर्चा के उत्तर में माननीय गृह मंत्री जी ने बहुत सारी चीजों पर प्रकाश डालने का काम किया है कि किस तरह हम नक्सलवाल और आतंकवाद को खत्म करेंगे, कंट्रोल करेंगे। जहानाबाद की जो घटना घटी है, मैं बिहार प्रदेश से आता हूं, मैं मंत्री जी से निवेदन करना चाहूंग् ाा कि वहां जो नक्सलवाद पनप रहा है, आम गरीबों में जो असंतोष है, उसके क्या कारण हैं, उसकी जड़ में जाने का काम हम लोगों ने किया है या नहीं? :ठ्ठद्ध ठ्ठध्ड्ढ;ााननीय गृह मंत्री जी ने कहा कि हम नक्सलवाद पर कंट्रोल कर रहे हैं, मगर मुझे लगता है कि हम जितना कंट्रोल करने का प्रयास कर रहे हैं, उतना ही नक्सलवाद बढ़ रहा है। खास ;कर मैं अपने प्रदेश की बात बोल रहा हूं, उसी तरह पूरे बिहार के पैमाने पर और पूरे देश के पैमाने पर भी नक्सलवाद की गतवधियां बढ़ रही हैं। यहां जो असमानता, गरीबी और फटेहाली है, जिसकी वजह से एक वर्ग और तबके में आक्रोश है, जिसके वास्ते लोग जान देने तक को तैयार हो रहे हैं, आप जान की सुरक्षा देने के लिए हर कोश्ि:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ;श कर रहे हैं, कुछ वर्ग और तबका ऐसा है जो अपनी जान देकर भी नक्सलवाद को बढ़ावा देना चाहता है, वैसी चीजों पर कंट्रोल करने के लिए सरकार के क्या प्रयास हो रहे हैं?
महोदय, जहानाबाद में जो घटना घटी है, आपने कहा कि हमने पूरे देश को अत्याधुनिक हथियारों से लैस करने के लिए तीन हजार करोड़ रुपए की राशि आबंटित क:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढ; है। आपने कहा कि वह राशि थाने के भवन निर्माण करने के लिए दी है। मैं चाहूंगा कि बिहार प्रदेश को, जहां बड़े पैमाने पर लोग नक्सलवाद से जूझ रहे हैं, वहां आपने पिछ:ठ्ठत् थ्ड्डड्ढ;ो वित्तीय वर्ष में कितनी राशि आबंटित की है या उसे कंट्रोल करने के लिए आप कितनी राशि देना चाहते हैं? क्या आपको जानकारी है कि १३ तारीख व ो जहानाबाद में इतनी बड़ी घटना घटी, जिसकी चर्चा करने के लिए हम सदन में बैठे हैं, उसी दिन सरेआम जहानाबाद के होस्पिटल में, जहां आम लोग आते-जाते हैं, वहां एक पच:ठ्ठहद्व ड्ढर्; नक्सलवादियों के माध्यम से दिया गया है और कहा गया है कि सारे थानों को मैं उड़ा दूंगा, राजनेताओं पर हमला करूंगा। इस तरह की कोई जानकारी आपको है, और अगर है, तो उस पर आप अपने स्तर पर क्या कार्यवाही कर रहे हैं?
SHRI BIKRAM KESHARI DEO : Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to know from the hon. Minister categorically about one thing. There was a Conference of Superintendents of Police at Guwahati. In that Conference, they gave a suggestion. Mr. Minister, as you have rightly mentioned during your reply, the State Governments have weak intelligence machinery. They are not able to deal with violence there. So, what steps your Government is taking? … (Interruptions) What is your Government’s thinking about this?
Are they going to make this internal security in the concurrent list like they did after 9/11 in USA by creating ‘home land security’.
Secondly, the internal security has got an external element. It is because, in the debate which we are having now, they have discussed two issues. One was about Fidayeen attacks and the other was about internal attacks by Naxalism and Maoists. Now, the internal security has got the external element. So, to deal with that, the State Governments are not competent enough because like you have mentioned, now they are using claymore mines. They are using more sophisticated arms and they are getting it from outside.… (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN : Put your question please.
SHRI BIKRAM KESHARI DEO : My last question is that the funding of terrorism is basically from narcotics. It is already known and is widely known. It is not only terrorism, it is narco-terrorism. So, what steps is the Government taking to curb this narco-terrorism? It is because that is their funding agency. That is from where they get the funds to create terrorism. It is because a terrorist is not a democrat. Thank you, Sir.
SHRI NIKHIL KUMAR : This is with reference to the suggestion made by the hon. Member Shri Mohan Singh that there should be a decentralisation of the National Security Guard.
Sir, I oppose this. Firstly, it is not possible logistically. Secondly, it is not possible operationally. Thirdly, it is not possible from the point of view of morale. It is a good suggestion as far as theory goes but when you will start implementing it, you will find it is very difficult to implement it because there are so many factors involved. So, while I welcome this suggestion which is clearly born out of great thought and consideration, it is impractical. Therefore, I would suggest that it may not be necessary to be considered. But while I am on the subject, Sir, I wanted to complete something, which I wanted to say but because of the shortage of time, earlier the hon. Deputy Speaker did not permit me. What I had wanted to say was that Naxalism is a problem that has different aspects. It has social aspects, economic aspects and law and order aspects. We should not deal with only the law and order aspect, though it is very important. For if we cannot deal with it, then it will threaten the security of the State. So, it is very important that we do something to strengthen our security forces. But the social and economic aspects are equally important. … (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister has already replied.
SHRI NIKHIL KUMAR : For that my suggestion is that the Centre should make out a comprehensive Central plan in consultation with the States and which can then be implemented by the States uniformly. That is why, I had also said that since this matter has inter-State ramifications, there may be occasions when the Centre may have to take suo motu action like in the case of Jehanabad incident. It is said that people had come all the way from Andhra Pradesh through Jharkhand into Bihar. They went back also the same way. It is in these cases that the Centre must reserve to itself the right to act suo motu.
17.54 hrs. (Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair ) For that, an amendment in the Constitution will be imperative. I suggest, for the consideration of the hon. Minister, that he may please give it some thought.
SHRI C.K. CHANDRAPPAN: Sir, while replying, the hon. Minister had said that in States where the land reforms are implemented, the menace of Naxalites is comparatively less. But it is a question of political will of the State Government how far the land reforms they will do. I feel that the Centre should also take initiative to compel, not to compel, to pursuade the State Governments to do so. In that case, I would ask whether the Government would consider a proposal of calling a meeting of the Chief Ministers to discuss this problem and suggest that the land reforms should be implemented. Then it is for the States to do that if the Centre takes this initiative. I would like you to respond to this.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, I call the hon. Home Minister.
… (Interruptions)
PROF. RAM GOPAL YADAV (SAMBHAL): They are having Army in themselves.… (Interruptions)
श्री मोहन रावले (मुम्बई दक्षिण-मध्य) : उपाध्यक्ष महोदय, आपने कहा था कि आप मुझे मौका देंगे, लेकिन मुझे मौका ही नहीं दिया गया है।
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : ठीक है। श्री मोहन रावले।
...( व्यवधान)
श्री रवि प्रकाश वर्मा (खीरी) : महोदय, मुझे भी एक सवाल पूछने का मौका दिया जाए।…( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record, except Mr. Mohan Rawale.
(Interruptions) …* श्री मोहन रावले : गृह मंत्री जी ने अभी कहा कि जम्मू कश्मीर की स्थिति में सुधार हुआ है, लेकिन हिन्दुस्तान के एयर मार्शल, जो कि फील्ड में काम क: द्धड्ढ;ते हैं, उन्होंने बयान दिया है कि पाकिस्तान से शांति वार्ता शुरू होने के बाद वहां इतना टैरेरिज््म हुआ है कि हमें पाकिस्तान से खतरा है। जम्मू-कश्मीर में बार-बार बम ा: हत्द्धह;वस्फोट हो रहे हैं, हिन्दुस्तान के अन्य हिस्सों में बम विस्फोट हो रहे हैं - इसमें सच्चाई क्या है? इसकी जानकारी मैं मंत्री जी से जानना चाहता हूं। महाराष्ट्र के लिए आपने कितनी राशि आवंटित की है। मैं एक सजैशन देना चाहता हूं। मंत्री जी ने कहा है कि नक्सलवादियों को आईएसआई के ज़रिए हथियार दिए जा रहे हैं। जब आपने फ्रस्ट्रेशन एंगर कहा है, तो म्: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ैं इनसे पूछना चाहता हूं कि इतने साल तक किसका राज था?…( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There are so many speakers who want to speak.
… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, the hon. Home Minister will reply.
… (Interruptions)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : हर पार्टी के माननीय सदस्य बोल रहे हैं, जबकि मैंने इंडिपेंडेंट्स को भी बोलने के लिए टाइम दिया है।
...( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will accommodate your name Mr. Ravi Prakash Verma.
… (Interruptions)
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL : Sir, the hon. Members have raised various points in the discussion and while asking their questions, they have made various suggestions.… (Interruptions)
* Not Recorded.
SHRI TAPIR GAO (ARUNACHAL EAST): He has not said any word about Karbi Anglong. … (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already given you enough time.
… (Interruptions)
SHRI TAPIR GAO : The hon. Home Minister has not replied about Karbi Anglong. This is an issue which cannot be overlooked by this country. … (Interruptions)
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: We have discussed this issue.… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record, except the hon. Home Minister.
(Interruptions) …* उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप बैठ जाइए। आपकी कोई बात रिकार्ड में नहीं जा रही है।
...( व्यवधान)
श्री हंसराज जी.अहीर (चन्द्रपुर) : ये आतंकवाद का मुकाबला नहीं कर रहे हैं, ये आतंकवाद का समर्थन कर रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) … * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please sit down.
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I should not be misinterpreted. I have not said what he is saying.… (Interruptions)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आप बैठ जाइए। मंत्री जी ने बड़े विस्तार से जवाब दिया है। सभी माननीय सदस्यों को इससे तसल्ली होगी। गृह मंत्री जी जो बोल रहे हैं, उसे सुनने की कोशिश करें।
...( व्यवधान)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions) …* *Not Recorded.
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I would like to say that they have made very good suggestions. I have noted them. They were not the questions asked for explanations. I am not giving any explanation. Sir, I have already said that we will discuss every issue but not in this fashion.… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You are wasting the time of the House.
… (Interruptions)
18.00 hrs. hrs. SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, this is aatankwaad in Parliament.… (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please sit down.
… (Interruptions)
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, let it not go on record at least.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is not going on record.
(Interruptions) …* SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, this is what they do in the House, this is what they do in Uttar Pradesh and this is what they do outside. … (Interruptions)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : आठवले जी, मैंने आपको समय दिया है, आप बैठ जाइए। अगर आप इस तरह हाउस को डिस्टर्ब करेंगे तो मेरे पास हाउस एडजर्न करने के सिवाए और क:ठ्ठ हद्वड्ढ;ेई रास्ता नहीं होगा।
...( व्यवधान)
उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मंत्री जी ने जो स्टेटमैंट दी है, वही सफशिएंट समझी जाएगी। अगर आप चाहते हैं तो मैं ज़ीरो आवर लूंगा।
...( व्यवधान)
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: It depends on his understanding. If he does not understand, I cannot help it.
_______________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : अगर आप गृह मंत्री जी के नोटिस में कोई स्पैशल बात लाना चाहते हैं तो उन्हें लिखकर दे दें, वे उस पर गौर करेंगे।.
..( व्यवधान)
श्री शिवराज वि. पाटील : मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि हमारे पुलिस के लोग इतने बहादुर हैं कि ऐसी स्टेटमैंट से उनका मनोबल कमज़ोर होने वाला नहीं है, जो कहन ;ा चाहें, कहें। दूसरी बात है कि सम्माननीय सदस्यों ने बहुत अच्छे सुझाव दिए हैं, प्रश्न के रूप में भी सुझाव दिए हैं। हम उन सब चीजों को ध्यान में रखेंगे।
यहां एक सवाल उटाया गया कि आप बातचीत करेंगे या नहीं। मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि नार्थ-ईस्टर्न स्टेट से बातचीत अभी भी चालू है और उसी का नतीजा कल हुआ। लेकिन्:ठ्ठ हद्वड्ढ; हम कह रहे हैं कि इसमें स्टेट गवर्नमैंट को पहल करनी है और सैंट्रल गवर्नमैंट उनकी मदद करेगी। हमें एक बात ध्यान रखनी पड़ेगी, पता नहीं श्री नखिल कुमार यहां हैं या नहीं, उन्ह:ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ;ेंने बार-बार कहा कि इसे स्टेट लिस्ट से कनकरैंट लिस्ट में लाइए। फैडरल सिस्टम में बहुत सारी अड़चनें होती हैं, इसलिए उन्होंने यह सुझाव दिया है और इसके बारे में पहले भी चर्चा हुइ र् और आज भी हुई है। सरकार का कहना है कि वे जो कह रहे हैं, वह सही होने पर भी हम सब राज्यों को अपने विश्वास में लेकर उनकी मर्जी से कुछ कर सकेंगे, नहीं तो दूसरी प्राबल्म्:ठ्ठह द्वड्ढ; क्रिएट हो जाएगी। लेकिन वे बिल्कुल दुरुस्त बात कह रहे हैं। जब भी कोई बात निकलती है तो फैडरल सिस्टम को ध्यान में रखकर उसकी चर्चा नहीं होती। यहां चर्चा होगी त ;ो कहा जाएगा कि वहां यह हो गया, आपने क्या किया। वहां हमारी पुलिस नहीं है, हमारे इंस्पैक्टर्स नहीं हैं, स्टेट के हैं, लेकिन स्टेट के भी हमारे ही हैं। जब यह सवाल स्टेट लैजिसलेचर :ठ्ठद्धठ्ठ ध्ड्ढ;ों उठने की बजाए पार्लियामैंट में उठता है तो कहा जाता है कि आपकी जिम्मेदारी है। यह फैडरल स्ट्रक्चर की वजह से है। इसे बहुत ही बैलैंस्ड तरीके से हमारे लोगों ने किया ह:ड्ढद्ध ठ्ठध्ड्ढ; और इसे ध्यान रखते हुए हमें कार्य करना चाहिए।…( व्यवधान)
श्रीमन्, मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि मेरे टेन्योर में…( व्यवधान)
श्री ब्रज किशोर त्रिपाठी (पुरी) : यह पन्द्रह राज्यों की प्राबल्म है, यूनियन गवर्नमैंट इंटरफियर नहीं करेगी तो स्टेट कैसे करेंगे।…( व्यवधान)
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You have to understand it.
SHRI BRAJA KISHORE TRIPATHY : Sir, we are not satisfied with his reply and so we are walking out in protest.
18. 05 hrs. (At this stage, Shri Braja Kishore Tripathy and some other hon. Members left the House.) उपाध्यक्ष महोदय : मनिस्टर का रिप्लाई पूरा माना जायेगा।
आइटम नम्बर २२ के बारे में मनिस्टर साहब यह एग्री करके गये हैं कि इसे किसी और दिन लिया जाये। अगर सभी आदरणीय मैम्बर्स चाहते हैं कि जीरो ऑवर लिया ज: ठ्ठहद्वड्ढ;ये तो हम उसे ले लेते हैं।
-----------------
18.05 ½ hrs. SUBMISSIONS BY MEMBERS…Contd.