Lok Sabha Debates
Regarding Dismissal Of Former Naval Chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat And ... on 9 March, 1999
NT> Title: Regarding dismissal of former Naval Chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat and allegations made by him against the Defence Minister.
12.06 hrs. MR. SPEAKER: I am calling the father of the House, Shri Indrajit Gupta.
... (Interruptions)
श्री मोहन सिंह (देवरिया): अध्यक्ष महोदय, हमने एडमिरल विष्णु भागवत की बर्खास्तगी के मामले को सदन में उठाने का नोटिस दिया है।
... (व्यवधान)
SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): Sir, kindly listen to what I am saying. It is very important. I believe that a large number of hon. Members have given notices referring to the dismissal of the Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, by the Government. This is a very serious matter which we wish to raise on the floor of the House because already three months have passed since his services were dispensed with. Up to now, we have had no chance of discussing this matter or hearing the Government explaining the reasons for its action. It is an unprecedented action. Such a thing has never happened since the country achieved independence.
Therefore, we request you that as soon as possible you kindly admit our notice under Article 239 for a comprehensive discussion on this matter. It is agitating the whole country. (Interruptions).
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kamal Nath.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: We are not discussing the matter. Please take your seats.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats. I am appealing to you to please take your seats. Please understand that the Chair has not given any ruling. I have called Shri Kamal Nath.
... (Interruptions)
______________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
SHRI KAMAL NATH (CHHINDWARA): Why are you agitated? (Interruptions). There is no reason to be agitated. (Interruptions).
MR. SPEAKER: I have called Shri Kamal Nath.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except what Shri Kamal Nath says.
(Interruptions)* SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, you have to control them. They do not want that it should be raised in the House. (Interruptions).
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Khanduri, please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
AN HON. MEMBER: Sir, I am on a point of order...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order during Zero Hour. What is your submission, Shri Kamal Nath?
... (Interruptions)
>SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, I do not know why they are so much agitated on this matter. For the last three months the nation is witnessing a sordid drama in the Defence establishment, both in the Ministry with the Defence Secretary, etc. and in the Armed Forces, which is unparallel in the history of this country. The Chief of naval Staff has not only been sacked but has been sacked in a manner which has been shrouded and clouded...(Interruptions) Sir, why are they worried? Let me complete what I am saying...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kamal Nath, what is your submission?
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, my submission is that an event has taken place which is unparallel in the history of the country...(Interruptions) Sir, are you allowing them to speak?...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please do not disturb him. Please take your seats.
... (Interruptions)
_____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. SPEAKER: What is your submission please?
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, my submission is that an event has taken place which is unparallel in the history of this country. It is not merely the sacking of a Naval Chief...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.
(Interruptions)
SHRI AJIT JOGI (RAIGARH): Sir, the matter is very serious. It relates to the security of the nation...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kamal Nath, what is your submission?
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, if you want me to speak, you have to control them...(Interruptions) अध्यक्ष महोदय : यह चर्चा नहीं है। आप बैठ जाइये।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: What is your submission, Shri Kamal Nath?
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, I can make my submission if you control them.
SHRI CHETAN CHAUHAN (AMROHA): Sir, I have to make a submission... (Interruptions).
MR. SPEAKER: You please take your seat. I have allowed Shri Kamal Nath, not you.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except what Shri Kamal Nath says.
(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats. श्री प्रभुनाथ सिंह, आप बैठिए। श्री चौबे, आप बैठिए।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.
Shri Kamal Nath, what is your submission?
... (Interruptions)
_____________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. SPEAKER: I have called his name. I will call you later. Please understand the procedure.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that I have called Shri Kamal Nath.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Member, please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chaubey, please take your seat. I have called Shri Kamal Nath.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kamal Nath, what is your submission?
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions) अध्यक्ष महोदय : मैंने श्री कमल नाथ को बुलाया है, आप बैठिए। आप बाद में बोल सकते हैं।
... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : श्री प्रभुनाथ सिंह, आप बैठिए।
... (व्यवधान)
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, this is not ....(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I will call you after him.
Shri Kamal Nath.
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, from all the events ....(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that I have already called his name. How can you speak now?
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: This is not good.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: I am appealing you to please take your seats.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, please take your seat. What is this?
... (Interruptions)
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, from all the events and overtones, there is only one objective appearing in this matter and that is how to have a compliant bureaucracy and compliant officers in the Armed Forces. The whole matter has a needle of suspicion, whether it is aircraft carrier or frigates, whether it is submarines or frigates and whether it is torpedos or missiles. The whole matter is reeking of corruption. Sir, the nation needs to know what has happened in this matter. We had a statement of the former Chief of Naval Staff.
We also have a statement of the former Chief of Air Staff. In this connection, I have given a notice for appointing a Joint Parliamentary Committee. I want to know whether you are accepting the motion moved by us and many others for constituting a Joint Parliamentary Committee? ... (Interruptions)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very surprising that the Parliament of India cannot discuss an unprecedented event. ... (Interruptions)
SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Is the dismissal of the Naval Chief a usual and routine matter? Can the Parliament not discuss it? The Defence Minister is going on the television ... (Interruptions)
__________________________________________________________________________ *Not Recorded.
MR. SPEAKER: I have called Shri Somnath Chatterjee, please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: This is not good. Please take your seat. आप बैठिये।
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Sir, if the hon. Members on that side think that they can throttle the entire Opposition, then they are totally mistaken. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, what is this? This is not good. I have called Shri Somnath Chatterjee. Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Let him complete. I will allow you after him.
... (Interruptions) श्री दग्िवजय सिंह (बांका): अध्यक्ष जी, आपने कहा था कि उनके बाद मुझे बुलाएंगे।
... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप ऐसा नहीं करें। आप बाद में बोलना।
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): Sir, senior Ministers and leaders are sitting there. Can they not control them? ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chaubey, please take your seat. What is this? What is going on here?
... (Interruptions)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : What is this? Do they not want to hear what we want to say? Let them controvert it. I am sure, there are very eminent people on that side. Mr. Speaker, whatever may be said, justified or unjustified, this is an unprecedented event. In 50 years, since Independence, for the first time, a Chief of one of the ... (Interruptions)
SHRI V. SATHIAMOORTHY (RAMANATHAPURAM): In `Zero Hour', without giving any notice to the hon. Speaker, they cannot raise it. Unless they have given a notice, they should not be allowed.
MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed him. Please take your seat. What is this?
SHRI V. SATHIAMOORTHY : It cannot be discussed during the `Zero Hour'current issue alone can be raised in the Zero Hour. Otherwise it will lead to a bad precedent to the proceedings of the House. Because the matter raised in the House is not a current subject. It can be raised by any other rules of the Parliament Proceedings.
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.
SHRI V. SATHIAMOORTHY: There is a procedure. It is not a matter to be raised during `Zero Hour'. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI AJIT KUMAR PANJA (CALCUTTA NORTH-EAST): Sir, I am on a point of order. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI A.C. JOS (MUKUNDAPURAM): A senior leader is not being allowed to speak. We will not let them go on doing like this. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. I have already permitted him. Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions) श्री लाल मुनी चौबे (बकसर) : यह बहुत बुरी बात है, इन्होंने चोरी की है।
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chaubey, please take your seat. श्री राम दास अठावले, आप बैठिये।
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Gopal, please take your seat. I allowed Shri Somnath Chatterjee to speak.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI AJIT KUMAR PANJA : Sir, I am on a Point of Order.
MR. SPEAKER: There is no Point of Order during Zero Hour. Please take your seat.
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Sir, we have seen several versions coming out in the papers. Many statements have come out. Hon. Defence Minister has given his version on the television. Hon. Prime Minister has also referred to ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please take your seats.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I appeal to you to take your seats. This is not good. I have called Shri Somnath Chatterjee. श्री प्रभुनाथ सिंह (महाराजगंज): गनी खां चौधरी जी के बोगस वोट का कया हुआ ... (व्यवधान) श्री लाल मुनी चौबे (बकसर): सोमनाथ जी को बोलना ही है तो सदन में जो वोट की चोरी हुई उस पर बोलें ... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chaubey, please understand that I will have to take action against you.
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Sir, if I say anything improper or unparliamentary, you will judge it and take a decision.
What I have been saying is that since the dismissal of the Naval Chief on the 30th of December, several versions have appeared in the press. ...(Interruptions) श्री प्रभुनाथ सिंह (महाराजगंज): इसमें हाई कोर्ट का निर्णय हो चुका है, फिर कयों यहां उठा रहे हैं ... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, you are disturbing the House unnecessarily. Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.
(Interruptions) * MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, I am giving you a warning. Please take your seat.
>SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am thankful to you.
Hon. Defence Minister has made statements which have appeared in the press outside the House. He has also given an interview on television. Hon. Prime Minister has referred to this dismissal outside the House. I feel the Parliament of India will be failing in its duty if it does not refer to this matter, advert to it and discuss it with all the seriousness it demands. It is a matter of great concern. We talk of parliamentary democracy. The Government also talks of parliamentary democracy. But, neither the Prime Minister nor the Defence Minister comes to the highest forum of democracy in this country and takes the House into confidence. Either of them does not make a statement here. We are totally kept in dark as to what is the real reason, if there was any reason at all. श्री शकुनी चौधरी (खगड़िया): तीन महीने पहले कयों नहीं रेज किया ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : The former Naval Chief has even held a press conference, we find from the newspapers, in which serious allegations have been made as to how such a decision was taken. He has made allegations of improprieties. He has made allegations of corruption in defence deals. Does not the Government feel obliged to come before the House and take the House into confidence and tell the country through this House as to what has happened and what is the response of the Government? A very serious charge has been made by the Defence Minister that the former Naval Chief had become a security risk. That was the most serious allegation that could be made against an Army officer or a Naval officer.
Sir, with regard to that, there is not a single response. What has the Government or the Defence Minister said in reply to Shri Bhagwat's press conference? I do not take any notice of it.
Sir, this is an amazing thing which is happening in this country. Is there a Government? The purpose of trying to post a particular officer who has made allegations on the communal basis, as to the religion of a particular person is on the record of the Defence Ministry... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Now, Shri Chetan Chauhan.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): After giving promotion to such an officer, such action has been taken. There are comments about the adverse comments being quashed by the Defence Minister himself, and this House does not know anything about it. We have to go by conflicting reports in the newspapers.
Therefore, Sir, we demand an immediate discussion on this issue as to why there is no action taken. Otherwise, nothing can be done.
MR. SPEAKER: Now, Shri Chetan Chauhan.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA (BANKURA): Sir, you allow those who have given notices ... (Interruptions)... We have given notice. You allow us first... (Interruptions) श्री मोहन सिंह (देवरिया): अध्यक्ष महोदय, हमने भी नोटिस दिया है।
... (व्यवधान) श्री रघुवंश प्रसाद सिंह (वैशाली): अध्यक्ष जी, हम लोगों की बात भी सुनिए। ... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: I have received several notices. I am calling one by one.
... (Interruptions)
PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): You have not given a chance to our side to speak... (Interruptions)
SHRI CHETAN CHAUHAN (AMROHA): Sir, it seems that they have only permitted Somnath Dada ... (Interruptions हमने उन्हें बोलने दिया है।
... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : हम जरूर सुनेंगे, आप बैठिए।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Yes, Shri Chetan Chauhan, what is your submission?> श्री चेतन चौहान : अध्यक्ष जी, मैं सिर्फ तीन बातें कहना चाहता हूं। बात यह है कि यह मामला बहुत संवेदनशील है। इस तरीके से जितने अधिकारी निकाले जाएंगे या जितने अधिकारी पचास साल में निकाले गये हैं, उन सबकी चर्चा यहां होनी चाहिए। ... (व्यवधान)
Every official who works for the Government of India works at the pleasure of the President of India. The Government has every right to remove anybody, and especially on such sensitive matters.
If such matters are going to be raised in Parliament, no Government will be able to function here. Today it is our Government. Tomorrow, it can be their Government... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Now, Shri Mohan Singh.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI CHETAN CHAUHAN : Sir, I have not completed yet. I want to raise two more points... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Mohan Singh has also given notice.
... (Interruptions)
DR. T. SUBBARAMI REDDY (VISAKHAPATNAM): We are the main Opposition party. You should call from our side also... (Interruptions)
SHRI CHETAN CHAUHAN : Sir, I agree with what Shri Somnath Chatterjee has said that it is unprecedented. But it is also unprecedented that people who are sacked, their issues are being raised here. If such issues are going to be raised here, this Parliament will become a place of the sacked people only... (Interruptions)
> श्री मोहन सिंह (देवरिया): अध्यक्ष जी, प्रधान मंत्री जी की उपस्िथति में राज्य सभा के सभी नेताओं को इस प्रकरण पर बुलाकर माननीय डिफेंस मनिस्टर ने ब्रीफ किया और उन्हें विश्वास में लिया। कया यही प्रक़िया लोक सभा के नेताओं के साथ नहीं अपनाई जा सकती थी? यह भारत की सीमाओं की सुरक्षा के साथ जुड़ा हुआ एक संवेदनशील मामला है और इस मामले को अखबारों के जरिए पूरे देश में गलत ढंग से या सही ढंग से उछालने की कोशिश हो रही है। यदि सरकार राज्य सभा के नेताओं को अवगत करा सकती है तो लोक सभा के नेताओं को अवगत कराने में कया दिककत थी? इस महत्वपूर्ण प्रश्न पर भारत सरकार को वकतव्य देना चाहिए और इस गंभीर सवाल को, जो आरोप नवल चीफ ने भारत सरकार पर लगाए हैं और जिस तरह के मामले को उन्होंने खड़ा किया है, उस पर इस देश में सरकार द्वारा सफाई दिए जाने की जरूरत है। रक्षा सेनाओं का मनोबल गिरा है और देश की जनता में इस सरकार की ईमानदारी के प्रति संदेह पैदा हुआ है। इसलिए इस गंभीर सवाल पर सदन में चर्चा होनी चाहिए और सारे तथ्य सदन के सामने लाए जाने चाहिए।
... (व्यवधान) ग्ृाह मंत्री (श्री लाल कृष्ण आडवाणी) : अध्यक्ष जी, अभी मोहन सिंह जी ने जो बात कही, उसमें बहुत वजन है।
... (व्यवधान)
>SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA (HASSAN): Sir, we are not here to damage the image of defence by raising a very sensitive issue. I agree with the views expressed by several Members in this House. But my primary concern is, after the dismissal, when the hon. Defence Minister tried to convince the whole country by using the electronic media and the print media, it is not our fault. With folded hands I request everyone of you, friends, as representatives of the people of this country, as a sovereign body, that this apex institution has every right to know from the Defence Minister who has used the electronic media and the print media about this matter. I am not going to discuss now whatever the allegations he raised. Let me make myself clear. I am not going to make any charges or repeat those charges, what the hon. Defence Minister through electronic and print media has raised to defend his action and to justify his action of the dismissal of the Naval Chief. Has this House no right to know from the Government under what cirumstances such an extreme stand has been taken? When I was heading the Government, I appointed this man as Naval Chief. In the last two years when I was there and my successor Shri I. K. Gujral was there, we did not perceive any security threat from him or receove any report from RAW or IB which have got their own way of collecting information about security risk from the Naval Chief. They have not given any such information to me. I do not know if they have given it to my successor. I do not know that. We have appointed a person. If his integrity and patriotism are questioned, then I must owe an apology to the nation. I am not going to lie low on this matter. You cannot ignore this matter like this. We have taken up only the issue of the dismissal of the Naval Chief. We have not gone to the other aspect of kickbacks. We do not want to raise that issue now.
I have already sent a notice under Rule 193. My friend has raised a point of order that in `zero hour' such a serious matter should not be raised. This is his contention. We have sent the notice under Rule 193 and Rule 184. It is for your good self. You asked us to convince you. That is the question you asked "To convince you whether to admit this discussion". With all sincerity, I request your good self to ponder over this issue because 545 elected Members from the people of this country have got a right to know under what circumstances the Naval Chief has been dismissed. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kamal Nath, it is clear now.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI KAMAL NATH (CHHINDWARA): Sir, I am picking up from what the former Prime Minister has said.
I am picking up also from what my friend on the other side has said. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please address the Chair.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI KAMAL NATH : Sir, let me finish. ... (Interruptions) How can I speak when they are interrupting? ... (Interruptions)
MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): Is this the way to address the Chair? ... (Interruptions) श्री एच.पी.सिंह (आरा): अध्यक्ष जी, आप जरा सा हमें भी सुनिये। जो लोग बड़े-बड़े आदमी हैं वही बोलते हैं।
... (व्यवधान)हमें बोलने का मौका नहीं मिलता है। ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI KAMAL NATH : I am picking up from what Shri H.D. Deve Gowda has said. ... (Interruptions) श्री चेतन चौहान : ये कांग्रेस पार्टी के हैं, उसी कांग्रेस पार्टी के जिसने बोफोर्स घोटाला किया है।
... (व्यवधान)पूरी पार्टी घोटाले वाली है। ... (व्यवधान) श्री प्रभुनाथ सिंह : आप बोफोर्स और यूरिया घोटाले पर बोलिये।
MR. SPEAKER: I have not called you. Please sit down.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please sit down.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI KAMAL NATH : This is not merely a question of the sacking of a Naval Chief. I am not on that point. I am not trying to question the civilian supremacy. I am not talking about any appointments; I am not talking about any court cases; I am not talking about CRs or how they were dealt with.
The whole matter is reeking of corruption. We have had a statement of the former Naval Chief; we have had a statement from the former Air Chief. There is bribe involved whether it is submarines or aircraft carriers, whether it is frigates or torpedoes or missiles or spare parts or avionics. This is a matter which requires to be discussed in the House. Therefore, I have moved a motion under rule 184 for a discussion. The minimum that the House needs is to have a JPC. ... (Interruptions) श्री रामानन्द सिंह (सतना): ये जार्ज फर्नान्डीज़ पर आरोप लगा रहे हैं, इन्हें शर्म आनी चाहिए।
... (व्यवधान)संसद और इस देश को जार्ज फर्नान्डीज़ पर गर्व है।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Ramanand Singh, please sit down.
SHRI KAMAL NATH : This dismissal has a nexus with the arms lobby and this dismissal has a nexus with kickbacks. That is the main reason for this dismissal but now it is sought to be clouded and shrouded with other reasons, which have no relevance. ... (Interruptions) We demand that a JPC be constituted. I have moved a motion for your consideration for the setting up of a JPC. I would like to know what you are doing, what is your decision on my notice for a JPC. ... (Interruptions) श्री रघुवंश प्रसाद सिंह (वैशाली): अध्यक्ष जी, इन्होंने नैचुरल जस्िटस का गला काट कर नेवल-चीफ को चपरासी की तरह हटा दिया। इस तरह के सुरक्षा मंत्री को हटाया जाना चाहिए।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.
(Interruptions)* >THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): I entirely agree with all the hon. Members who have spoken from the Opposition. When they said that an important event, if it takes place in the country, this House cannot be barred from discussing it. If, till today, issues of this kind and issues of this nature are not raised in the House, it is not because we do not have the right to raise them but because we impose a restraint on ourselves only in order to ensure that the Armed Forces of the country remain totally apolitical. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): But you can take it up on the television! ... (Interruptions)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I am sure that democracy in India is what it is. One of the essential ingredients of our strength is that it is not like in other countries where there is an intermingling interconnection between the armed forces and the political representatives and on that account very many situations follow. It is in this context that when this development took place, there was an informal interaction between some leaders of the Opposition and the Government.
Therefore, till today - though so many months have passed - there had been so many occasions in-between and this issue normally had not been raised by us. ... (Interruptions) Sir, let me complete. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Let him complete. Shri Basu Deb Acharia, please let him complete. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Shri Mohan Singh drew our attention to a very pertinent fact. Shri Sikander Bakht, who is the Leader of the other House, is present here; he also pointed out to me that that was what was done in the other House, that is, the leaders of all the parties got together along with the Chairman and the Prime Minister. ... (Interruptions) Sir, I must complete. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, please let him complete.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Let him complete. What is this?
... (Interruptions) श्री रघुवंश प्रसाद सिंह (वैशाली): वह समय बीत गया। अब इसमें बिना बहस के कोई गुंजाइश नहीं है। इस मामले की जांच होनी चाहिए।
... (व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय : आप बैठिए। श्री रघुवंश प्रसाद सिंह (वैशाली): अध्यक्ष महोदय, हम आपका आदेश मानते हैं। ... (व्यवधान)
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: In the other House, the leaders agreed that this matter would not be raised in the House and that would be confined to that discussion.
So far as this House is concerned, you are the custodian, Sir. Shri H.D. Devegowda just mentioned that he had given a formal notice of a motion, etc. SOME HON. MEMBERS: We have also given.
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: All right. The objection that was being raised was that this issue was being discussed during Zero Hour. That was the objection. But so far as we are concerned and the Government is concerned, the Government entrust this issue to you, Sir; and in whatsoever manner you resolve it, we will accept it.
>SHRI AJIT KUMAR PANJA : I wanted to raise a point of order. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: No. What is your submission? You can make only submission.
SHRI AJIT KUMAR PANJA I would say this. I support Shri H.D. Devegowda when he said that the country has a right to know, not only the Members. My objection is this. We, the Members of this House, have framed the rules, with your blessings. The rules provide specifically to raise matters of urgent public importance. It may be done by moving a motion or if it is a very urgent one, we may also have a Short Notice Question. When a notice is given to you under Rule 184 or under Rule 193, it is for you to decide. I would submit with all humility that you cannot allow it to be discussed here, before a decision is taken by the Chair. But if you want to hear those hon. Members who have given notices before your decision, then you may in your chamber hear them and decide about allowing it to be discussed under Rule 184 or under Rule 193. ... (Interruptions) Sir, may I complete?
Otherwise, it is a very sensitive issue; our defence system is in question. Therefore, confidence is a must; the Lok Sabha must have full confidence in the defence system. So, kindly decide about it, keeping this in mind. But, we have a right to know and the people have a right to know.
>THE MINISTER OF POWER, MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF NON-CONVENTIONAL ENERGY SOURCES (SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGALAM): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have only one request to the whole House, through you. What we cannot often say in a normal debate, I think, should not be adopted as a procedure in the Unlisted Business. Essentially, we cannot make charges against Ministers or Members, except by following the relevant Rules. Not only in this matter, but generally also, whenever we make charges which are against any Member or a Minister, the relevant Rule should be followed. So, we cannot do it in the normal procedure.
SHRI BHUBANESWAR KALITA (GUWAHATI): What have you done in the case of Shri Sukh Ram? You have stalled the proceedings for 18 days. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI): Sir, what is your decision?
MR. SPEAKER: I will give my decision.
MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): Sir, I may also be heard. Here, a lot of people are becoming the sponsors of Services and its morale. I think, I should be heard.
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Khanduri, what is your submission?
MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Many things are happening here; I am only requesting you.
MR. SPEAKER: We are not discussing the matter now; you can only make a submission.
MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Everybody has spoken. We have taken so much time only to discuss this.
MR. SPEAKER: What is your submission?
>MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Here, I want to state only this and request the House. ... (Interruptions)
I have spent 38 years in the Army. ... (Interruptions) What is happening here is very sad. Political mileage is sought to be derived at the cost of services and service organizations. ... (Interruptions) This is my opinion. We have heard you. I would like to remind them that when we were in the Opposition, I raised the issue of defence services again and again. Everytime the reply was, `Do not ask us. This is a holy cow'. The same was the reply even for the questions regarding budgetary proposals. It is agreed that information should be made available. I entirely agree that the House should get the information. But what is the methodology? If you want to raise any allegation, there is a method to raise that allegation and then the House can discuss that issue of allegation. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Prof. P.J. Kurien, please sit down. Both of you are Chief Whips.
... (Interruptions)
MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : I am only stating that whatever be the methodology of discussion, kindly ensure that it does not in any way affect the sanctity and the type of atmosphere that prevails in the defence services. This is my request as an ex-soldier and not as a politician. ... (Interruptions)
>MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, please hear me.
I have received notices for Motions, Short Duration discussions, Calling Attention, Zero Hour mentions, inter-alia regarding allegations made by the former Naval Chief, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat against the hon. Defence Minister. The issue being sensitive, the Ministry has been asked to send the facts. It is understood that three public interest writ petitions have been filed in the Bombay and Delhi High Courts. In this regard, their status has to be ascertained. The notices are under my consideration. I also propose to consult the leaders on this issue today itself. Please cooperate with me.
With regard to Shri Mohan Singh's notice for Adjournment Motion, I would like to say that it was received after 10 a.m. today and it is invalid for today.
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