Lok Sabha Debates
Regarding Fixation Of Discussion In The House On The Issues Of ... on 10 March, 1999
Title: Regarding fixation of discussion in the House on the issues of allegations/charges levelled by to Shri Mohan Guruswamy former consultant to the Finance Minister and Shri Vishnu Bhagawat, Former Naval Chief.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER (TENALI): Sir, we, on this side, had raised the issue of corruption, based on the allegations of Shri Mohan Guruswamy. At that time, the hon. Finance Minister and others agreed that the matter could be discussed. I am only submitting that the matter should be taken up some time because outside, the Prime Minister has gone on record rejecting all the allegations. That is not fair. We expected that the matter would be discussed here.
>SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA (HASSAN): Sir, I made a specific allegation which was not based on Shri Mohan Guruswamy's allegation against H.R. Coil Steel where the floor price had been increased to US $ 302 per metric tonne. The House and the Government have agreed and your goodself has assured the House that you are going to fix the time in consultation with other leaders in the Business Advisory Committee. According to your own expression today, we are behind schedule. We have got only three days in this week and three more days in the next week. There are so many issues which have to be discussed in this House. There is also the issue relating to Shri Vishnu Bhagwat. I do not know what you are going to do on that. Some time has to be fixed in consultation with the leaders of various groups to discuss this issue. It is not a question of the Prime Minister reacting outside the House. We have raised this issue inside the House and the House and the Government have agreed and you have assured the House that some time would be allotted for this. I know that in regard to other business, we are hard pressed for time. In the meanwhile, I would like to suggest that if the House agrees, we can sit for a little more time. In the past, we were sitting up to seven o'clock or nine o'clock in the night. If everybody agrees, we are prepared to sit now also.
This matter must be discussed in the current session itself. There should not be any lapse from the Government's side on this issue. There is no question of our agreeing to it. Please fix the date as to when we would be taking up this issue and announce it. श्री विजयशंकर (मैसूर): अध्यक्ष महोदय, केवल इसी विषय पर यहां चर्चा नहीं होनी चाहिए। करप्शन के चार्िजस जिस किसी पर लगे हैं, उनके बारे में भी यहां चर्चा होनी चाहिए।
... (व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Member, please sit down. The Minister is on his legs.
>THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS, MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PLANNING AND PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTATION (SHRI RAM NAIK): Sir, as we have already said, this matter can be discussed in the Business Advisory Committee meeting and a decision can be taken there.
>SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI): Sir, the issue was raised in the House and there was a specific commitment, or assurance, from your side that you would fix a time for this. I do not think that we should wait for the Business Advisory Committee to meet. As hon. Deve Gowda has suggested, we are ready to sit after six o'clock provided some time is allotted to discuss the Mohan Guruswamy issue. We do not mind sitting after six o'clock even today and tomorrow. We can finish the regular business by six o'clock and take up these important issues, whether it is Bhagwat issue or Mohan Guruswamy issue, after six o'clock.
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Why should it be after six o'clock. Routine matters can be discussed after six. This is an important matter. श्री चेतन चौहान (अमरोहा) : अध्यक्ष महोदय, बोफोर्स और सब-मैरिन पर भी यहां चर्चा होनी चाहिए।
... (व्यवधान)
SHRI RAM NAIK: I understand the eagerness of the Leader of Opposition for a discussion on this issue. These matters are normally settled in the Business Advisory Committee. It would not be proper to convert the entire House into a a Business Advisory Committee. We are ready on this. Whenever the Business Advisory Committee meeting takes place ...(Interruptions)
SHRI RAJESH PILOT : The Speaker has given a commitment.
SHRI RAM NAIK: That is why the time has to be decided in the Business Advisory Committee.
SHRI RAJESH PILOT : We are appealing to the Speaker to fix the time.
SHRI RAM NAIK: That is what I am also doing.
SHRI RAJESH PILOT : It should not be done in the BAC.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Even the Speaker had agreed to it based on what we had raised here.
MR. SPEAKER: I have called a meeting at 1 p.m. tomorrow of leaders of all parties. We will decide about the time in that meeting.
>SHRI RAJESH PILOT : My apprehension is that the Government is trying to delay it purposely. There is not much time left now. Government is trying to take it to next week but then they will say that the Budget and the Motion of Thanks on President's Address are there for discussion. Ultimately we may lose the opportunity, and the right of the Opposition, to raise this issue.
MR. SPEAKER: I have called a meeting of leaders tomorrow.
SHRI RAJESH PILOT (DAUSA): Sir, it is already delayed by four days.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): That was on Vishnu Bhagwat issue. This is on Mohan Guruswamy issue.
MR. SPEAKER: We will discuss it in the leaders meeting tomorrow.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : Sir, we have got the intimation for tomorrow's meeting. We have taken a decision in the Business Advisory Committee meeting that there will be two discussions in this session before the 18th - one on Friday and the other on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. I do not know how we will be able to spare time! If you could take a decision as early as possible, it would be helpful for the whole House.
SHRI RAM NAIK: We decided many things in the Business Advisory Committee meeting. We decided that the Patents Bill would be completed yesterday itself and that we would work up to eight o'clock. As you know, the House did not agree to that yesterday. It was also decided that the Government business, which is urgent and important, would be taken first. That was what was decided.
The Patents Bill was not completed yesterday. Motion of Thanks on President's Address is yet to start. We are ready to agree to whatever is decided in the Business Advisory Committee meeting, from that angle. It is the Opposition which is not following what is being decided in the Business Advisory Committee meetings.
>SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : I have a suggestion to make. I do not know whether it will be acceptable to hon. Members of the House or not. We have very sad experience of discussion on corruption matters in the House. For many years we have discussed one or the other corruption issue and we have not come to any conclusion.
May I suggest to the House through you that you should ask some senior Members who are interested in this case that they should being all the matters before a group of Members of Parliament.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No.... (Interruptions)
SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : All right. So, others will also raise the issue. I do not think that you can only raise the issue... (Interruptions) Then you can say, `no, no' at that time... (Interruptions)
I am just making a suggestion. I am nobody to force a decision on you... (Interruptions)... If you are the Speaker, I shall address you. Unfortunately, you are not, and I think, the country will be not that unfortunate that you will be becoming Speaker... (Interruptions)
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was just suggesting that you should compose a Committee or a Group of Members of Parliament with senior Members including Shri Indrajit Gupta, Shri Somnath Chatterjee, Shri Sharad Pawar, the Deputy Leader of the Congress Party and some others who are interested in the matter, and bring all these corruption issues before them.
Take first this issue which has been assured to be discussed in this House. And, if they come to some understanding that debate should confine to certain matters, then it can be taken up . Otherwise, there will be wrangling debate for many days and we shall not come to any conclusion excepting mud-slinging in this House. And then, the other side, we will bring other issues. Then you will not be able to, Sir, excuse me for saying so, stop them from bringing that issue.
I think that if we have less time at our disposal and more work to perform, we should try to divide our work in such a way that we do some positive thinking on these issues and come to some results... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Now, Matters Under Rule 377 to be taken up.
... (Interruptions)
>SHRI K. KARUNAKARAN (THIRUVANANTHAPURAM): Hon. Speaker, Sir, on this matter, they are convening meeting of leaders... (Interruptions)...By that time, the Prime Minister is making a statement before the House.... (Interruptions)...I request you to stop this kind of a statement made by the Minister.
SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : Mr. Speaker, Sir, as a point of clarification, the hon. Member has raised this issue. Whether it is the Bofors matter, when it came, I raised the same thing. I have been on record, time and again, that Parliament should not spend its time, should not waste its time on Bofors. It is the matter of the Police Inspector. Even when I was in Parliament, when I was out of Parliament and when I was in the Government, I do not change everyday like you people... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri R.L.P. Verma, now.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA (BANKURA): Sir, I have a very important matter to raise. The Rural Bank employees are holding dharna.
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, we will take up the ` Zero Hour' tomorrow. You can raise your issue tomorrow, not today.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, today the Rural Bank employees are here. They are demanding... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Now, Matters Under Rule 377 - Shri R.L.P. Verma.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU (SRIKAKULAM): Sir, on the same issue I also want to add. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I have called the Matters Under Rule 377.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Nothing of what Shri Basu Deb Acharia says will go on record.
(Interruptions)* SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Acharia, I have called you for tomorrow and not today.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, I will take only one minute.
MR. SPEAKER: I have already called Shri R.L.P. Verma for his matter under Rule 377.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, I will not take much time. It is a very important issue. Please allow me.
MR. SPEAKER: All right.
Shri R.L.P. Verma, one minute please. Let Shri Basu Deb Acharia speak.
... (Interruptions)
__________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded MR. SPEAKER: Now, whatever Shri Basu Deb Acharia is saying is going on record.
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Devegowda, do you have any submission?
SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA (HASSAN): I have a submission on one of the suggestions made by our hon. former Prime Minister, Shri Chandra Shekhar.
Shri Chandra Shekhar is a very senior Member of this House. I love him as my guru. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): He has got many shishyas! SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : He loves Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the present Prime Minister as his guru always.
I beg to differ from the suggestion that he has made. If this House is not going to take up the issue of corruption, whether `A' or `B' is involved in it, then, what is this House meant for? I am not able to understand that.
Shri Chandra Shekhar had said that a Police Sub-Inspector can do it. If it could be done by a Police Sub-Inspector, then, with all its machinery, for the last six or seven years, why are we unable to get the second portion of the Bofors papers from the Swiss Government? I had also handled the matter and he also handled it. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI AJIT KUMAR PANJA (CALCUTTA NORTH-EAST): Shri Devegowda is a very much respected Member of this House. What is his view on the false voting inside the House? ... (Interruptions)
SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : I am not going to support anybody, whether the corruption charges are against `X' or `Y'. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN (BALASORE): Sir, we are not getting any chance to speak. Only senior Members are always allowed. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: No. They are former Prime Ministers.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN : Why is it that somebody should be allowed just because he has been a Prime Minister? ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Why do you not try to understand? Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Normally, I do not unnecessarily raise any issue on corruption. Let me make myself clear to Shri Chandra Shekhar and other hon. friends.
When the floor price is Rs.200 or Rs.190 and you fix Rs.302 as the end price, the consumers are the sufferers and not the politicians. Here, this issue has to be discussed from the point of the consumers. I have not made any charge that `X' or `Y' has taken money but the issue is, we are here to protect the consumers. ... (Interruptions) It cannot be discussed in the Speaker's chamber; it is a matter to be discussed in the House. The consumers have been put to a great hardship. This is a matter to be discussed on the floor of the House.
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chandra Shekhar, do you want to say something?
... (Interruptions)
>PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): I would also like to put on record that we do not agree with the suggestion made by Shri Chandra Shekhar. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I have already called Shri Chandra Shekhar.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : All right, you may call me later.
SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (BALLIA) (U.P.): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not say that they should agree with me. But I shall just remind my friend Shri Kurien and also Shri Devegowda that when the Bofors issue was being discussed and I said that it was a matter for the Police Sub-Inspector, I was jeered by the House and the Press, where editorials were written.
In the last Session, those friends who were present here would remember that that matter was again raised when one CBI Director came with certain bags of papers here and it was said that everything was being exposed. My dear friend who is now the Minister of External Affairs, Shri Jaswant Singh raised this issue in this House and it was debated vehemently for one or two days. I was sitting just by his side. The Minister of Law, Justice and Company Affairs got up in the end, at four o'clock and said, `We have got a message from the Swiss Government that these papers can be referred to only by the Police Sub-Inspector and if charges are to be framed, they can be given to this Court but the papers could not be given to Parliament or the Members.' The whole debate ended there. Then, I said to my friend Shri Jaswant Singh, `My dear friend, you have got this wisdom only after a decision has come through the verdict of some subordinate judge in the Swiss court.' My dear friend Shri Devegowda, for whom I have great regard, should learn that whatever we may discuss, we cannot chargesheet a person for corruption in this House, we cannot give redress to the people, to the consumers, by that discussion. The redress to the consumers can be given, the chargesheet can be framed, if these issues are discussed threadbare by those who know about corruption and about the dealings involved.
If the matter comes up, you can always take a decision to refer it to any committee. I am making the suggestion only because people outside should not feel that this Parliament and Lok Sabha has no other business but to discuss about the issue of corruption everyday. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAJESH PILOT (DAUSA): In 1989, the Government fell only because of charges on account of Bofors. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: We can do it tomorrow and not today.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, a very senior Member has given a suggestion and I would like to react to it because there has already been a reaction to that. The views of my party should also be known and recorded. Otherwise, it will go by default. We are not agreeing to his suggestion.
MR. SPEAKER: We have already started submissions under Rule 377.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, please allow me. Only if you allow me, I will speak; otherwise, I will not.
MR. SPEAKER: What is your intervention?
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Shri Chandra Shekhar is a very senior Member; he can have his own views and there is no objection. We respect his views also. But I would submit that we beg to differ with him because this House has a convention for the last 50 years. Umpteen number of times corruption charges had been raised. Such discussions are part and parcel of democratic functioning. Parliament which represents the wishes and aspirations of the people cannot ignore such corruption charges when they are seriously discussed in newspapers. If we ignore those corruption charges, I have no hesitation in saying that we are shirking from our duty.
Therefore, I would like to submit that we do not associate with the feeling or the suggestion expressed by Shri Chandra Shekhar. We want that discussion on both the issues should be held. You have promised to this House that during this week itself time will be allotted. I request you to please allot time and allow a discussion on this.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.
(Interruptions)*