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Lok Sabha Debates

Discussion Regarding Flood And Drought Situation In The Country. (Continued. ... on 17 August, 2004

16.42 hrs. DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 193 (ii) Flood and Drought Situation in the country – Contd.

Title: Discussion regarding flood and drought situation in the country. (Continued. Not concluded) MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Shivraj Patil is before the House now. As decided earlier, he will give the reply to the discussion on flood and drought situation in the country. I would request him to give the reply and after the reply, the discussion on power shortage will continue.

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL): Sir, I am really very grateful to you, the hon. Speaker and the hon. Members of this House for facilitating the reply in this fashion. I am indeed very grateful to you. It has become necessary because I was in the other House and I was replying to the debate over there also and hence, it was not possible for me to come here and reply to the debate in a regular manner.

Sir, it is naturally very heartening to note that a very good debate has taken place yesterday and today also on the drought and flood situation in India. If we had discussed this topic in the last Session, probably, we would have emphasized more on drought than on floods, but when we are discussing this topic now, the emphasis has shifted from drought to the floods. A large number of people have lost their lives in Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Bihar and some other States also.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In Kerala as well.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Yes, in many other States as well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: In Gujarat also.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: In all the States where floods have occurred, people have lost their lives. We would like to express our condolences and sympathies to the members of the bereaved families.

One of the most important things which we have to bear in mind is that India is a very vast country and every year, in some States, we have drought conditions and in some States, people suffer from floods. This is a regular feature as far as we who are working at the national level are concerned. This is because of the geographical conditions and vastness of our country.

Sir, southern States generally suffer from drought conditions and northern States generally suffer from floods.

The few States which have suffered the most are Arunachal Pradesh, Assam and Bihar. Uttar Pradesh also suffered, but not as much as Bihar. Kerala, Maharashtra, and Karnataka also suffered but not as much as Arunachal Pradesh, Assam and Bihar. The rivers which are responsible for the floods in our country are Brahmaputra and the rivers which are coming from Nepal. They are causing the flood.

One of the most important things which we have to bear in mind while discussing this important topic is what can be done to overcome the difficulties which are caused by the flood conditions and the drought conditions. Most of the hon. Members who spoke here, spoke with a feeling for the people of their States. They concentrated on the relief that was required to be given to them. They, at the same time, spoke about the permanent solutions that should be found out. This is a very important debate. They were not considering this issue on a partisan manner but in a holistic manner. While paying attention to the difficulties that are faced by their constituents and the people from their States, they did not restrict their comments only to their States. But they did speak about the temporary and permanent solutions which can be found to deal with the problems that have arisen out of drought and flood situation. This is really very very heartening.

SHRI BIKRAM KESHARI DEO (KALAHANDI): Will the hon. Minister yield for a minute?

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Yes.

SHRI BIKRAM KESHARI DEO : Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to know from the hon. Minister, through you, that during the last Lok Sabha, that is the Thirteenth Lok Sabha, a Task Force had been set up for inter-linking of rivers which would have permanently solved the long pending drought problem and long pending flood problem. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please conclude.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will come to that point. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is not the topic now. Please take your seat.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI BIKRAM KESHARI DEO : It is in the interest of the country. … (Interruptions) मैं कहना चाहता था कि राष्ट्रीय बाढ़ आयोग ने वर्ष १९७४ में एक रिपोर्ट दी थी जिसमें बिहार और यू,.पी. की बाढ़ को रोकने के लिए २२५ सजेशन्स दिये गये थे। दुख की बात है कि वर्ष १९८० में जब यह रिपोर्ट पेश हुई …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record except the hon. Minister’s reply.

(Interruptions)* SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, the hon. Member is very right. The point which he has raised is very important.. The hon. Member can rest assured that I am not going to conclude my speech without touching upon that point. But please do not break my flow. Let me follow my route. I am replying to a debate in which so many hon. Members have participated. I am not replying to a question as I do in the Question Hour. That time it is different. The hon. Member can rest assured that what he has said is very important and I am going to touch upon that point also.But let me do it.

SHRI BIKRAM KESHARI DEO : Mr. Chairman, Sir, I thank you very much.… (Interruptions) I also thank the hon. Minister and the Members of this House.… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : This is not in the form of question and answer. He is only replying to the debate. Your query will be covered by his reply. Please sit down.

… (Interruptions)

* Not Recorded.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: In this debate, we shall have to be very clear on one or two points. I would like to refer to those points first.

What are we discussing today? Are we discussing the relief that is provided? Or, are we discussing the issue of rehabilitation? Or, are we discussing the issue relating to the establishment of infrastructure? Are we discussing the issues relating to the long-term plans that we should have in order to deal with these problems? As a matter of fact, this matter was raised on the floor of this House with an intention to see what kind of relief can be given to the people in the areas where the drought conditions prevailed, in the areas the floods have occurred. That was one of the most important points. It is not that the other points were not important. But we shall have to be very clear on this point. What is relief, what is rehabilitation, what is restoring the infrastructure and what is planning for the future to prevent the drought and floods in our country? We have to be very clear about this aspect.

One of the phrases which was used by many of the hon. Members in this House was ‘ऊंट के मुंह में जीरा’.हमारी मांग तो इतनी थी लेकिन आपने केवल इतना पैसा ही दिया। यह तो ऊंट के मुंह में जीरे के समान है। क्या यह दुरुस्त है? What they were saying was really very correct because the demands made by the State Governments were quite big. Naturally, they were not concerned only with relief but they were concerned with rehabilitation, restoring the infrastructure and planning for the future. So, the total amount that was required by each of these States was very much enormous. It was beyond the authority available to the Home Ministry to provide that kind of money for them to meet this kind of a demand.

While discussing this issue, we shall have to understand that giving relief is very important. That has to be done at the time when it is required. After that, if you give relief, there is no point. Suppose there is a flood, there is an earthquake, there is a drought condition. The relief has to be made available because that relief helps the man to survive, to exist. If you give the relief after some time and if that relief will be of a better kind also, that is not useful. It has to be timely. Timely action is most important in giving the relief. If an earthquake has taken place and if the houses have collapsed, a person cannot live only under the sky. He should have some shed, some cover to protect his head. If a small room is given, that is relief. The question of building a big house is completely different and it is rehabilitation. But giving one room is relief.

What has happened? Floods have taken place in Arunachal Pradesh, Assam and Bihar also. When the floods were there, in fact the houses were inundated. Most of these people were sitting or standing on the pucca roofs of their houses. It was most essential to see that they were rescued. The rescue work was most important. When their houses were completely inundated, it was not possible for them to cook the food. Of course, grains might be there in the House, but cooking was not possible. So, it was necessary that somebody else cooked the food and gave that food to them.

Now, when they were there in those conditions, it was essential that some medicine should have been given to them. That is most essential. Supposing they were rescued, they had to live somewhere, under a tent made out of a tarpaulin. That is relief. We, in the Home Ministry, are mainly concerned with relief and something for rehabilitation. If the developmental activities have to take place, if the restoration of the infrastructure has to take place, then the Home Ministry is not the route. The Home Ministry overseas the disaster management and that is why I am replying to this debate. Sometimes, people feel as to why the Home Minister who is expected to carry a baton in his hand and control law and order is talking about disaster management. Disaster management is done under the umbrella of the Home Ministry by various Ministries like the Ministry of Water Resources, Ministry of Agriculture, Ministry of Power, Ministry of Transport, Ministry of Health, etc. Most of them contribute towards disaster management, and since this is done under the umbrella of the Home Ministry, I am replying to this debate.

So, the first point I would like to make is, let us distinguish between relief and rehabilitation and permanent development. We can discuss what kind of relief was given, what kind of steps were taken to provide temporary rehabilitation to some people, what are the policies we should have for this purpose, what is the kind of machinery which is required for this purpose, what are the kind of funds which are required for this purpose, what kind of cooperation and coordination between the Union Government, State Governments and others is required, who can really function in this atmosphere, etc. The para-military forces, the defence forces, civilians, NGOs, individuals, all of them function together in such circumstances. But how is it to be done? This concept is developing now and they have come to the conclusion that it is a multi-disciplinary activity. It is not to be done by one Department or one Ministry. It has to be done by many Departments and many Ministries.

Sir, the reason why I am making this point is because I shall have to explain what kind of assistance was provided to them and we shall have to come to a conclusion whether it was sufficient or not. If it was not sufficient, certainly people are the masters, you are their representatives and you can certainly decide what kind of help should have been given or may be given when these conditions arise later on in future. That is the decision we shall have to take.

Sir, there are two kinds of funds available with us. One is called CRF and the second is NCCF. CRF is the Calamity Relief Fund. Now, Calamity Relief Fund is the main fund which was constituted as per the recommendations given by the 11th Finance Commission. The 11th Finance Commission had provided nearly Rs. 11,000 crore for this purpose for five years. Out of this fund, certain States have been given certain amounts of money. They can utilise this money to meet the calamities that may occur in their States. The only thing they have to do is, they have to just say that this fund is available to us, this kind of calamity has occurred and we should be allowed to use this fund. Then, the Finance Ministry allows that State to use that fund. That is the nature of the Calamity Relief Fund. But it was found later on that this amount of money was too meagre and it was not capable of meeting the demands of the people to provide the facilities which are required by the people facing disasters and calamities. That is why, another fund was created and that is the NCCF, National Calamity Contingency Fund. Now, this National Calamity Contingency Fund is used to give money over and above what is given under CRF.

As far as CRF is concerned, the State Governments have no difficulty in getting this money. Supposing one State is allotted Rs. 400 crore, they have to write to the Finance Ministry and say that we are going to use this money in these circumstances, money should be sent to us and we should be allowed to use it, and that is all.

17.00 hrs. They will be allowed. The National Calamity Contingency Fund is a fund which can be given over and above this. If a State getting Rs.400 crore, for instance, finds that the amount of money is insufficient, it can come to the Union Government and ask that some more money should be given and under the NCCF. The funds that are given can be given after a team is sent to the State, examination is done and a report is given and more money is given for that purpose. This is over and above CRF. This is also not going to be sufficient.

Supposing, for instance, take the case of Kerala. Kerala case has been discussed. I can assure my friends from Kerala that we will take care of all their difficulties and we will certainly look into it. There will be no difficulty. This applies to all other States, whether they belong to one party or other party. There will be no discrimination. But supposing some difficulty has arisen because of the drought conditions in Kerala, supposing the farmers have suffered or supposing some power station has suffered, for this if you want money, the route is little different.

What you can do is this You can decide on the amount of money you would like to have from the Union Government after considering the facts which are relevant to this issue. Then you can come to the Central Government and when you can come to the Central Government while deciding upon the annual plan you can say that this is the kind of losses we have sustained because of the drought conditions and to recoup those losses we would need this kind of money, so you should be given more money. Then the Planning Commission would give you more money and you can utilise it. It can be provided in your Budget. It can be provided in the Union Budget if some arrangement is to be done.

I am not going into the technicalities, but the route is not this. The route is through the Planning Commission and that would done you can rest assured. We will look into the matter with all sympathy… (Interruptions) I will reply to all their queries. I would request them not to break the flow. I will respond to all their questions after the reply… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please take your seats.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SURESH KURUP (KOTTAYAM): When it comes to Kerala, why does he say that it can be only through Planning Commission?

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I am not talking about Kerala. I am talking about the route that is followed. I will reply to this question later on. I would request the hon. Member not to break my flow. I have my own method of explaining.

What I was explaining was that there is CRF. I was explaining that there is NCCF and I was saying that over and above that you are entitled to get some money and you can get money through a different route. This is not applicable to Kerala alone, this is applicable to Maharashtra, this is applicable to Uttar Pradesh, this is applicable to Bihar. We are not saying no to them, but we are saying that do not follow this route, do not go by this route. You follow a different route and you get the money. If you are wanting to go to Himalayas and if you are travelling in South, you will not reach Himalayas until and unless you go round the entire globe. That will take time. I am saying that this is the route.

I am not blaming any Government. I am not blaming you. I am not blaming anybody. I am not saying that money will not be given or it will be given to one State and it will not be given to another State. I am saying that this is the position. Let us first of all understand this thing and when we understand this, then we can do it.

Now, this is the route. There is CRF and NCCF and then the Planning Commission is also there. The fourth stage arises is this to which the hon. former Minister referred to. He just asked a very important question. Have you found out what is the amount of money which was lost because of these drought conditions and floods in the country? It is a very important question. He has applied his mind to this important question. I may say that this is a very important question and we, fortunately, have information about it with us. My information says that a sum of Rs.69,786 crore of money has been lost in the floods and droughts since 1953 to 2003. This is a huge amount of money. We do not want that this money should be wasted. The suggestion given by him was very very relevant. Many suggestions were given. But, how do we go to those suggestions? The route which we have to follow in overcoming this permanent problem is not the route of CRF and NCCF or the Planning Commission. This is a route which we have to follow through the National Development Council. Besides the National Development Council, development of infrastructure is most important. Power generation, education and health are most important. Let us spend more money. Let there be a consensus between the Union Government and the State Governments. It is because these projects are not planned by the Union Government alone, but they are planned by the State Governments too. The State Governments and the Union Government have to join hands and then prepare the plans and we have to implement them. But, where is the forum where this kind of decision can be taken? Here, the Union Government Ministers and MPs are sitting. But, here, the State Government Ministers and Chief Ministers are not allowed to come and discuss. The only forum which is available for this purpose is the National Development Council. Once, in principle, this decision is taken, then there would not be any difficulty. What the Planning Commission has to decide is that more money should be spent on developing irrigation facilities, power generation, afforestation, education and health. These are the most important things. If we spend more money, if we make more and better allocation for these purposes, it will be good. That reflects in the Five Year Plan, that reflects in the Budget and then we can do it. So, Sir, I think, this debate about relief, rehabilitation, restoring the facilities and then creating the permanent assets to cope up with the problems of flood and drought, has become very very important.

Having said this, I would like to come to the points, which I had made, as to what kind of relief was given. I take up the States which have suffered the most. Do not think that we are neglecting the States which are not mentioned here. First of all, I will give the facts and figures relating to all the States. Then I will give facts and figures relating to one or two States only and not all the States. If the Members coming from all States or Members coming from the affected States want the statistics, the statistics are available with me. What is not available with me is the time. That is why I would not be able to refer to it. So, please for God’s sake do not think that those States are neglected States. I am, first of all, giving you the figures relating to all the States. Assistance was sought in February 2004. The assistance sought and given was Rs.1359 crore. Now, I come to the amount available and all those things. The financial assistance given is Rs.1082 crore. Sir, 67 Army columns were given to the States; 19 helicopters were given to the States; 2.5 lakh metric tonnes of food-grains were given; 50 lakh litres of kerosene were given. In the case of satellite telephony, 17 satellite telephony were given; in the case of medicine, one hundred lakh halogen tablets were given; 25 lakh ORS packets were given; one hundred million metric tonnes of bleaching powder were given; and in the case of Anti-snake venom, 2000 vials were given. These are the figures as far as all the States are concerned.

But the most affected States in my opinion and as per the statistics given are Assam and Bihar. These are the most important States. Arunachal Pradesh has also suffered. I am not going into all the details. But, I will just give you the relief that is given to them. Now, rice distributed is 3.76 lakh quintals. This is given to Assam.

Then, 33,539 quintals of dal were distributed; 1,401 quintals of jowar were distributed; 12,322 quintals of salt were distributed; and 483 quintals of gur were distributed. The number of polythene sheets distributed was 2,000. It is not many. The number of relief camps that was set up was 386. This is given to the State Government.

Now, as far as Bihar is concerned, I will give you the figures. Assam and Bihar were the most affected States. Arunachal Pradesh was also affected. What was the relief given? In Bihar, the number of boats deployed was 7,840. 29,224 quintals of readymade food were distributed. The number of polythene sheets distributed was five lakhs. 816 metric tonnes of food package were air dropped. Five lakh candles were distributed. Four lakh match boxes were distributed. 1.89 lakh litres of oil were given. 1.83 lakh quintals of gas were distributed. All those things were given to them. The number of persons rescued in Bihar was 5,262. The number of persons to whom medical relief provided was 8,815. 118.75 metric tonnes of ration were supplied.

Now, I can give the details of all the States but I do not think that it is necessary. Having said this much … (Interruptions)

SHRIMATI JAYABEN B. THAKKAR (VADODARA): What about the States which are affected this year especially? … (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will come to that. … (Interruptions)

श्री राम कृपाल यादव (पटना) : आपने अभी बिहार को दी जाने वाली सामग्री के बारे में बताया। आपने वहां चावल इत्यादि आवंटित किए। क्या केन्द्र सरकार बिहार सरकार से इसका चार्ज कर रही हैं? अगर चार्ज कर रही हैं तो क्या मार्किट रेट से चार्ज कर रही हैं? यह बात सही है या नहीं?

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Let us not divide between the State and the Union Government. If the State Government has done it on its own, we are very happy. If the Union Government has done it, they should be happy. It is not a matter between the Union Government and the State Government. I am not giving these facts and figures for the sake of taking the credit.

Now, I know that whatever has been given is not sufficient. Something more has to be given. If you do not … (Interruptions)

श्री राजीव रंजन सिंह ‘ललन’(बेगूसराय) : मैं जानना चाहता हूं कि बिहार को केन्द्र सरकार ने कितनी सहायता दी है?

श्री शिवराज वि. पाटील : मैंने अभी केन्द्र सरकार द्वारा बिहार को दी गई सहायता के बारे में बताया। बिहार सरकार ने जो किया, वह इससे ज्यादा है। …( व्यवधान)

श्री राम कृपाल यादव : केन्द्र सरकार ने अपने स्तर से वहां कुछ चावल आवंटित किए हैं। …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do not ask questions now. Let him finish his reply.

… (Interruptions)

श्री राम कृपाल यादव : यह एक बहुत महत्वपूर्ण मामला है। मैं निवेदन के साथ जानना चाहता हूं। …( व्यवधान)आप मार्किट रेट पर पैसे चार्ज कर रहे हैं। आप गरीब लोगों को जो चावल चार रुपए किलो में आवंटित करते हैं, आप उसी रेट पर उन्हें देने के बारे मे विचार करिए। दस रुपए किलो में देंगे तो राज्य सरकार करोड़ों-करोड़ रुपया कहां से देगी? बिहार पहले से ही गरीब है। …( व्यवधान)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I am explaining it. Let it be understood by the Members that whatever has been given is not equal to their requirements or demands. This is also a relief. I am not saying that what you got is more than what you needed. I am not saying that we are obliging you. We are co-operating with each other. But then this has to be understood. I am giving the facts to you and it is not for taking the credit. But you know, in these circumstances one of the important things is that the people should also not be disheartened.

They should have the confidence in themselves, in their Government, in the Bihar Government, in the Union Government and in the people. They should not feel that they can be left like that. We are not that weak. We are not very rich also to provide for all those things. It is for this reason that I have given these facts and figures and nothing more than that. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Now, we have to continue with the other discussion.

श्री रघुनाथ झा (बेतिया) : सभापति महोदय, माननीय मंत्री जी ने खुद स्वीकार किया है कि बिहार सब से गरीब राज्य है। माननीय सदस्य श्री राम कृपाल जी ने जो प्रश्न उठाया है, उसके बारे में हम जानना चाहते हैं। …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please resume your seat.

श्री रघुनाथ झा : बिहार या असम या दूसरे राज्य बाढ़ से प्रभावित हैं, उन्हें जो गल्ला दे रहे हैं, उसका पैसा ले रहे हैं, क्या वह मार्किट के रेट से ले रहे हैं? उसके लिये सरकार को एक स्पष्ट नीति की घोषणा करनी पड़ेगी…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please resume your seat.

श्री रघुनाथ झा : यह जनता की आंखों में धूल झोंकने के बराबर है। मैं यह भी समझ रहा हूं कि आपने कम दिया है। आपने चाहे जो दिया, वह पैसा रिलीफ का है या पैसे के बदले में गल्ला दे रहे हैं?

SHRI ANIL BASU : The role of the Central Government has been very well appreciated by all concerned. … (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You can ask these questions. I will reply to them. Why are you breaking my speech?… (Interruptions) I will explain. … (Interruptions)

SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY (KOKRAJHAR): What happened to the people of Bodoland area? It is very unfortunate. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the Minister complete his reply. Please co-operate. Please resume your seat.

श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : असम गवर्नमेंट जो राहत डिस्टीब्यूशन कर रही है उसमें बोडोलैड अंचल के लोगों पर बहुत discriminationकिया जा रहा है । … (Interruptions) Why there was no direction from the Central Government to the State Government of Assam to do equal justice to all the flood affected people? The injustice done to the people of Bodoland Territory has indeed been a matter of serious conern. Sir, I am very sorry.… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will reply to all your questions and queries, but you can ask the questions after I completed the speech. Now, if each one of you is getting up and asking me to reply, it becomes difficult.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister, how much time do you require?

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I can conclude by whatever time available. I will not take much time.

There is one more thing. The Chief Minister of Gujarat had come to me. He had gone to the Prime Minister also. He had spoken. The Chief Minister of Arunachal Pradesh also met me. Other dignitaries also met them. We have heard them very patiently. The demands made by them are very enormous. The Chief Minister of Gujarat says he will require Rs.3000 crore. The Government of Arunachal Pradesh also said they require a huge amount of money. They do require money. I am not saying that they do not require it. But the question is, whether this amount of money will go through the CRF and CCF or through Planning Commission or something else. We have said that whatever help can be given expeditiously will be given to them.

There is one other thing which has to be borne in mind by all the hon. Members. If you need any help or assistance from here, you shall have to inform the Government of India that this is the calamity; this is the kind of money you require, and that money should be given. If it is through CRF, then there is no problem. If it is through NCCF, then we have to send a Committee. We do understand your difficulties. We will try to help you. We will help you as much as it is possible through these methods. If more money is required, we will certainly take a decision on this.

As far as the price of the foodgrains is concerned, I do not know why this gentleman is getting agitated in finding it. We are giving foodgrains. I do not have the information as to the price they are charging and all that. I will get that information. But as a matter of policy, I can tell you one thing that this cannot be more than what we are taking from all other States. Or, it cannot be less than that. Now if we are in a position, we have given the foodgrains free of cost also in some cases. He is saying about the BPL population. I am saying that instead of allowing the foodgrains to rot in the godowns, it can be given free of cost.

I am not making a promise. I am not making a policy statement. The Home Ministry does not have the information on the money that is charged. I would get it from the Agriculture Ministry and give it to you. I would promise to you that we would help as much as possible but do not make it a political point. … (Interruptions)

SHRI RAGHUNATH JHA : I am not making any political point.बिहार को आपने अभी तक ११५ करोड़ दिया है और जो आप फूडग्रेन्स एफ.सी.आई. की मार्फत दे रहे हैं उसके ८५ करोड़ रुपये मार्केट रेट से एफ.सी.आई. मांग रही हैं, रिलीफ की परिभाषा क्या है। …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let him complete his speech. Let the hon. Minister complete his reply.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record except the Minister’s reply.

(Interruptions)* MR. CHAIRMAN: This is a very important item of business. Please co-operate.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are discussing about the flood and drought situation with all seriousness. The hon. Minister is replying. Please allow him to finish his reply. Please resume your seats.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I am not standing here to take the credit. I am not pleading a case in a court. … (Interruptions)

* Not Recorded.

My friends can remain reassured because the credit would go to them. They started the discussion here. I am not taking the credit. May I also tell the other hon. Members that if their Chief Ministers had any difficulty in getting any … (Interruptions)

If you do not want me to explain to you, I can sit down. I have no difficulty in sitting down. I would reply to your questions but I cannot reply to interruptions like this. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the Minister’s reply be completed.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: After I finish, you can ask your questions. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record except the Minister’s reply.

(Interruptions)* SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You can put your question after I sit down. I am not obliged to reply to interruptions. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I would reply to your questions after I finish this reply. I am finishing my reply. I would take questions one after the other but let me complete my reply and sit down. … (Interruptions)

Mr. Chairman, Sir, this is a little too much. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record except the Minister’s reply.

(Interruptions)* SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will take to your question after I sit down. There is a procedure to be followed. … (Interruptions) I will reply to all your questions after I finish this but not now. I will reply to all hon. MemberS. I am finishing my reply. … (Interruptions) It seems I should rather reply to their questions than finishing what I was saying. … (Interruptions)

* Not Recorded.

I was saying that some States have come to us with their requests. Those requests have been met not fully but partially. Some States have not come to us with their requests. If they come to us with their requests, we would certainly and sympathetically look into their requests and help them. If this is not the route through which we can help them fully, we would try to see how we could accommodate them through other means.

There are one or two points which have been raised on finding a solution of permanent nature. One of the most important points is linking of rivers. It was raised by the hon. Member over there. He wanted a reply on this. I would say that this project is a good project. This was started by the Congress Government long, long ago, in 1972. It was later dropped and then it was revived by this Government. Whether it was started by this party or that party, by this Government or that Government, it is a good project. We would certainly look into these matters. There are some difficulties related to finances, political matters and such other things but nothing is beyond human ingenuity or our capacity to overcome these problems. We will certainly look into it. It is not possible for me to discuss the irrigation projects over here. But as far as this project is concerned, it is a good project. We will look into it.

The second most important point, which was raised by the hon. Members, was about the information given by the Department of Meteorology. Now, may I tell you that the Department of Meteorology was uncertain when we were not having super computers and satellites, etc? But, by and large, 80 per cent of their predictions are coming true. Now, if there is anything wrong with the information which is given by them, then it will be our endeavour to see that the technology which is required for this purpose can be updated and that technology can be used. But it is a fact that the farmers should be properly informed and if they are not properly informed, then it will be very difficult.

Now, the third thing, which was suggested by some hon. Members, was about the training of the persons who would be used for this purpose. In fact, we have started the training institution for this purpose and we are training the Eighth Battalion of the Central Reserve Police Force and others also to give the help to them. Now, as far as the assistance which is required to be given is concerned, we will look into it.

The fourth most important point, which was raised by mostly Bihar hon. Members, was relating to the relationship with Nepal, Bhutan, China and other countries. Now, one of the problems which is faced by Himachal Pradesh relates to the artificial dam and all those things and we will certainly look into them. But the thing is that this is something on which there has to be an agreement. If the other countries are not finding it very easy to agree upon to certain of the proposals given, then it becomes very difficult. That is why, we shall certainly look into all these questions.

I do not think anything more is required on this point. I will take all the questions which you ask and I will reply to your questions. Now, you can shoot your questions at me. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Now, no question please. The discussion is complete. We will be going to the next item.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, the discussion is complete. If all the hon. Members stand, then it will be very difficult. There will be no further questions. The discussion is complete. I will pass on to the next item.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Ram Kripal Yadav to continue the discussion under Rule 193 regarding situation arising out of shortage of Power in the country.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will reply to all the questions; I will not leave the House without replying to your questions. Please ask your questions one by one. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, hon. Minister there is one question.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Minister agrees, I will allow you.

श्री रघुनाथ झा : सभापति जी, मुझे एक प्रश्न पूछना है। मैं पूछना चाहता हूँ कि बिहार सरकार को प्रधान मंत्री जी ने ११५ करोड़ रुपया देने की घोषणा की। …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please hear me. Now, I will allow one or two Members to put questions. He will answer all the questions together and not separately.

… (Interruptions)

…( व्यवधान)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव (झंझारपुर) : सभापति महोदय, मेरा सीधा प्रश्न है कि माननीय रघुनाथ झा ने जो सवाल पूछा है फूड ग्रेन के विषय में कि राहत कार्यक्रम की मद में जो फूड ग्रेन बाढ़ पीड़ितों को मुहैया कराया गया है उसका मार्केट रेंट वसूल करने की बात केन्द्र सरकार की ओर से की जा रही है, इस प्रकार की सूचना हमें प्राप्त हुई है। मैं इस संबंध में केवल सफाई चाहता हूं।

माननीय रामकृपाल यादव जी की उत्तेजना और तकलीफ सही है कि यदि बाढ़ पीड़ित लोगों को बी.पी.एल. के दामों पर अन्न मुहैया नहीं करा के, मार्केट रेंट पर मुहैया कराया जाएगा, तो यह रिलीफ के नाम पर अदभुत है, अनप्रेसीडेंटेड है ?

महोदय, मैं माननीय गृह मंत्री जी, विदेश मंत्री जी और जल संसाधन मंत्री जी से यह जानना चाहता हूं कि क्या इस बारे में कोई मॉनिटरिंग सेल बनाई गई है जिसके अन्तर्गत नेपाल से संपर्क कर के इस संबंध में बातचीत की जाए और क्या जल संसाधन मंत्रालय ने जिन नदियों के बारे में नेपाल से बात की जानी है उनके संबंध में कोई डिटेल प्रोजैक्ट रिपोर्ट बनाई है और सी.आर.एफ., सी.सी.एफ. और योजना मद में बिहार को कितनी-कितनी राशि मुहैया कराई है ?

SHRI N.N. KRISHNADAS (PALGHAT): Sir, I want to seek only one clarification from the hon. Minister. While giving the reply, he attended to the matter regarding Kerala and then he explained it. I want to seek one clarification in regard to that. The Government of Kerala sought some assistance from the Government of India. For the last two consecutive years the State of Kerala is facing very severe drought and other natural calamities. While explaining about it the hon. Minister mentioned that the route which was selected by the Government of Kerala is not the correct way. The Government of Kerala is asking for assistance from NCCF. The Government of Kerala have prepared a note and submitted everything to the Government of India. While meeting the hon. Prime Minister and the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the concerned Ministers, they said nothing about this at that time. Now the hon. Minister is explaining that that was not the route. This is the point on which I would like to seek a clarification from the hon. Minister as to what is the real way. Even though the route selected by the Government of Kerala is not the proper one, why should the people of Kerala suffer? I want to know whether the Government of India is ready to assist the people of Kerala in a proper manner or not? This is the only question I would like to ask the hon. Minister. Thank you.

श्रीमती जयाबेन बी. ठक्कर : सभापति महोदय, गृह मंत्री महोदय ने उनके दायरे में जो आता है, उसका जवाब दिया है, लेकिन जो लॉसेस हुए हैं, वे केवल एक क्षेत्र में नहीं बल्कि अन्यान्य सैक्टर्स में हुए हैं। The major sectors affected are like this. We have lost Rs. 361.17 crore in power sector, Rs. 345 crore in roads and buildings, Rs. 153.95 crore in agriculture and Rs. 2,050 crore in industry and mines.

महोदय, इस बार गुजरात के लोगों को जो लॉस हुआ है और बाढ़ का जो प्रॉब्लम झेलना पड़ा है, वह हर बार नहीं होता है। पहले वहां लोग ड्राउट की कंडीशन से जूझ रहे थे और उस समय उन्होंने जो बीज खेतों में बोया, वह जल गया, लेकिन उसके बाद अब फ्लड आ गया और इससे जो लॉस हुआ है, उसके अन्तर्गत गुजरात राज्य को क्या असिस्टेंस मिलेगी, वह हम जानना चाहते हैं। जो पैसा आप दे रहे हैं, वह बिल्िंडग बनाने के लिए बहुत कम है।

श्री मधुसूदन मिस्त्री (साबरकंठा) : सर, गुजरात सरकार ने जो मेमोरेंडम केन्द्र सरकार को दिया है उसमें ३,५०० करोड़ की मदद की मांग की है और समाचारपत्रों की रिपोर्ट के अनुसार ५५ करोड़ रुपए की मदद दी गई है। मैं यह जानना चाहता हूं कि जो ५५ करोड़ रुपए की मदद दी गई है वह एडहॉक है और प्रदेश सरकार की मांग ३,५०० करोड़ रुपए की थी, उसके मुकाबले जो ५५ करोड़ रुपए की राहत दी गई है, वह बहुत कम है, इसलिए क्या उसके लिए कोई क्राइटीरिया फालो किया जाएगा ?

I want to know whether all that was being sanctioned according to the criteria or it would be an ad hoc sanction to the State.यह पैसा कब मुहैया कराया जाएगा, मैं यह जानना चाहूंगा? … (Interruptions)

SHRI P.S. GADHAVI (KUTCH): Sir, I associate myself with him. … (Interruptions)

श्री राजीव रंजन सिंह ‘ललन’:माननीय सभापति महोदय, माननीय मंत्री जी ने अपने उत्तर में प्रारम्भ में ही दो बातें कही थीं। एक तो उन्होंने यह कहा था कि बाढ़ की समस्या का तात्कालिक क्या उपाय हो सकता है और दूसरा, इसका स्थाई समाधान क्या हो सकता है? बिहार में बाढ़ प्रतिवर्ष की एक परम्परा बनी हुई है। बिहार और झारखंड के बंटवारे के बाद बिहार की पूरी आर्थिक उन्नति कृषि पर निर्भर है। बाढ़ और सुखाड़ के कारण प्रतिवर्ष बिहार की आर्थिक स्थिति प्रभावित हो रही है।

महोदय, मैं माननीय मंत्री जी से जानना चाहूंगा कि जो स्थाई समाधान की चर्चा और बात आपने कही थी, चूंकि यह कहा जाता है कि उस पर नेपाल और बंगलादेश से वार्ता हो रही है, क्या सरकार ने उस पर कोई ठोस निर्णय लिया कि कैसे आगे बात बढ़ा कर उसके स्थाई समाधान की दिशा में पूरी मुस्तैदी के साथ आगे बढ़ा जा सकेगा?

DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA (LAKHIMPUR): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to know, through you, from the hon. Home Minister the extent of damage and loss in the State of Assam due to flood this time, and the amount of claim made by the Government of Assam from CRF and NCCF and the extent to which it has been sanctioned so far.

I also want to know from him about the criteria for allocation of funds under CRF because the Finance Commission has decided certain criteria for allocation of a definite amount of money against each State.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please conclude.

… (Interruptions)

DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : No. Sir, that is a question of interest for all the Members. For allocation of funds from CRF, the Finance Commission has defined a rule, the basis on which the amount for a particular State is to be allocated. I want to know whether it is allocated on the basis of the population or on the basis of extent of damage. What is the basis of allocation recommended by the Finance Commission?

Lastly, the Government of India has not replied about the disaster management plan. I had suggested that in every district, a disaster management team well-equipped with rescue boats, trained personnel and other equipments should be there because it occurs every year. In every district, there is some area which is flood-prone and we have to face flood in those areas. What is the preparedness of the Government to deal with the situation in those areas? These are my three queries. … (Interruptions)

SHRI SURESH KURUP : Sir, the complaint of the people of Kerala is that in spite of two consecutive years of drought, the amount allotted from the Union Government is quite minuscule. In spite of repeated demands from the Government of Kerala and from all the political parties, the Central Government has not considered to enhance the amount to be allocated from NCCF. What we want to know is whether the Union Government, considering the repeated memoranda from the Government of Kerala, will give further amount from NCCF to face the situation of drought in Kerala. This is my specific question.

SHRI LAKSHMAN SINGH (RAJGARH): Sir, I do not want to ask a question; I want to give a suggestion. About disaster management, I would like to submit that there are a number of universities which carry out courses in disaster management.

There are so many youths in our country who are unemployed even after having a Degree in Disaster Management. If some scheme is formulated for giving employment to these youths, like they could go and live in Bihar, or they could go and live in Assam where the flood occurs every year, and they could help the local people in managing such natural disasters in a systematic manner. It is just a suggestion.

श्री राम कृपाल यादव (पटना) : सभापति महोदय, मैं माननीय मंत्री जी से आपके माध्यम से निवेदन करूंगा कि बिहार की जैसे बड़े पैमाने पर चर्चा भी हुई, वहां एक तरफ बाढ़ और एक तरफ सुखाड़ की स्थिति है। वहां १६ ऐसे डिस्टि्रक्ट्स हैं, जहां बिहारवासियों को बड़े पैमाने पर सुखाड़ की स्थिति से भी निपटना पड़ रहा है। मैंने अपने भाषण के दरम्यान यह निवेदन किया था कि सुखाड़ की स्थिति का जायजा लेने के लिए केन्द्रीय सरकार के स्तर से दल भेजा जाये, ताकि वहां का आकलन करके वहां के सुखाड़ग्रस्त लोगों को राहत देने की कोई व्यवस्था करे। दूसरी महत्वपूर्ण बात यह है कि माननीय प्रधानमंत्री जी गये थे, वहां केन्द्रीय दल गया। केन्द्रीय दल ने अपनी रिपोर्ट सबमिट की होगी। बाढ़ग्रस्त लोगों के लिए सरकार ने क्या कदम उठाये हैं, उनको और केन्द्रीय सहायता देने जा रहे हैं, कृपया सुखाड़ और बाढ़, दोनों के विषय में बतायें।

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please put one question.

श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार : माननीय सभापति जी, मैं आपके माध्यम से माननीय गृह मंत्री जी से पूछना चाहूंगा कि जैसा अभी उन्होंने बाढ़ और सूखे की चर्चा पर जवाब दिया है, और अभी तक तो हम लोग यह सुनते चले आये हैं कि राहत का मतलब किसी की मदद करना होता है। यह नहीं कि आप उसमें बिजनेस करें। हमें राहत के तौर पर आप जो मदद दे रहे हैं, उसके बदले आप रिचार्ज कर रहे हैं, इससे तो अच्छा है कि हम प्राइवेट गोदामों से अन्य गोदामों से खरीदकर राहत पहुंचा देंगे। अगर आप रिचार्ज लेंगे तो राहत का कोई मतलब नहीं होता, इसलिए मैं माननीय मंत्री जी से स्पष्ट पूछना चाहूंगा कि राहत का मतलब क्या है, इस पर केन्द्र सरकार की क्या नीति है, उसे स्पष्ट करें?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

श्री शैलेन्द्र कुमार : अभी उत्तर प्रदेश में सूखा भी पड़ा है, सूखे की स्थिति पर राज्य सरकार द्वारा जो मदद मांगी जायेगी, क्या माननीय मंत्री जी उस पर मदद करेंगे?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members must please cooperate with the Chair. We cannot make this a recurring discussion. We already had a discussion on this issue.

… (Interruptions)

श्री रामदास बंडु आठवले (पंढरपुर) : महाराष्ट्र में कम से कम ११ जिलों में, ७१ तहसीलों में सूखा था। जब एन.डी.ए. की सरकार थी तो एन.डी.ए. की सरकार से १७०० करोड़ रुपये की मांग की की थी, लेकिन अटल जी की सरकार ने केवल ५० करोड़ रुपये ही दिये थे, लेकिन अभी हमारी सरकार ने ५०० करोड़ रुपये दे दिये हैं। …( व्यवधान)

SHRI PRABODH PANDA (MIDNAPORE): Sir, I will put only one question. … (Interruptions)

SHRI ANIL BASU (ARAMBAGH): Why are you allowing another discussion here?

श्री रामदास बंडु आठवले : बाकी के १२०० करोड़ रुपये जो बचे हुए हैं, वे १२०० करोड़ रुपये देने के बारे में केन्द्र सरकार को विचार करना चाहिए ताकि महाराष्ट्र में सूखे से जो लोग, किसान परेशान हैं, उनकी मदद हो सकती है। हमें १२०० करोड़ रुपये की आवश्यकता है।

SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY (KOKRAJHAR): Sir, I am thankful to you for giving me a chance to put some questions. मैं आपकी मार्फत कुछ सवाल पूछना चाहता हूं। भारत सरकार की तरफ से असम सरकार को फ्लड इफैक्टिड लोगों को राहत देने के लिए आज तक कितने करोड़ रुपया दिया गया। इसमें से हमारे बोड़ोलैण्ड टेरीटोरियल एरिया के लिए कितने करोड़ रुपया खर्च किया है? वहां एक सीरियस कम्प्लेण्ट चल रही है। परसों मैं अपने एक असेम्बली सेगमेंट भवानीपुर में जाकर आया हूं, वहां इतना डिस्क्रिमिनेशन चल रहा है कि एक आदमी को असम सरकार ने दिखाया कि ६०० ग्राम चावल दिया गया है, लेकिन असलियत में किसी को सिर्फ ३०० ग्राम और किसी को २०० ग्राम ही मिला है। A great discrimination has been done against the Bodoland people in providing relief materials to the flood affected people in Assam.… (Interruptions) We want equitable justice, and कम से कम बोडोलैंड एरिया के लिए एक हजार करोड़ रुपये की केन्द्रीय सहायता देनी चाहिए। … (Interruptions) If equitable justice is not given to the Bodoland people by in the Government there will be no rest and peace in Bodoland. It should not be allowed to continue like this.

SHRI K. FRANCIS GEORGE (IDUKKI): Sir, I will ask just two questions from the hon. Minister. What was the assistance sought by the Kerala Government in the year 2002-2003 and 2003-2004, and what was the assistance granted by the Centre?

I would like to know whether there has been a policy change, as far as assistance from NCCF and CRF is concerned because doubts have been expressed whether this assistance, which has been given, is being charged or not. After this Government took over, has there been any policy change from what has been followed by the previous Government? … (Interruptions)

SHRI B. MAHTAB (CUTTACK): I am raising my hand for the last half-an-hour. … (Interruptions)

श्री मोहन एस.डेलकर (दादरा और नागर हवेली) : My name has been mentioned by you, Sir. सभापति महोदय, केन्द्र शासित प्रदेश दादरा और नागर हवेली वैसे ही बैकवर्ड और ट्राइबल एरिया है। दादरा और नागर हवेली भयंकर फ्लड की वजह से १० साल पीछे चला गया है। बाढ़ की वजह से वहां एक हजार करोड़ रुपये का नुकसान हुआ है, ऐसी रिपोर्ट है। मैं माननीय गृह मंत्री जी से रिक्वैस्ट करना चाहता हूं कि आप दादरा और नागर हवेली को दुबारा मजबूत करने के लिए कोई बेनीफिट स्कीम जैसे टैक्स होलीडे एनाउंस करें। इसके अलावा आप वहां एक्साइज डयूटी को फ्री करने के बारे में भी एनाउंस करें।

श्री दहयाभाई वल्लभभाई पटेल (दमन और दीव) : सभापति महोदय, मैं दमन और दीव यूनियन टैरीटरी से आता हूं। वहां तीन अगस्त को मधुबन डैम से दमन गंगा में पानी छोड़ा गया जिसके कारण वहां बाढ़ आ गयी। उस पर नौ करोड़ रुपये की लागत से एक ब्रिज बनाया गया था जो डेढ़ महीने में ही टूट गया। हमने आपसे २०० करोड़ रुपये की राहत की मांग की थी। लेकिन अभी मंत्री जी ने जो जवाब दिया, उसमें दमन और दीव का कहीं नाम नहीं आया। मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि हमने २०० करोड़ रुपये की जो मांग की है, वह हमें दिया जाये।… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Hon. Member, Shri Mahtab, will be putting the last question.… (Interruptions)

SHRI P.S. GADHAVI : Sir, I would not take much time. On the flood situation in Gujarat, I associate myself with what has been stated by my colleagues, Shrimati Jayaben B. Thakkar and Shri Madhusudan Mistry. Further, I would like to know about the drought conditions prevailing in certain portions of Gujarat, that is, in Kutch District and in certain areas of North Gujarat and Saurashtra. The Central Government has sent a team for studying the drought situation in Kutch. I would like to know whether the Government of India is going to consider all these things… (Interruptions)

SHRI B. MAHTAB : Sir, I am thankful that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs mentioned about disaster mitigation policy. I may be allowed to ask two questions. One is, he has very rightly mentioned about the dredging of rivers. During yesterday’s debate, my question was: "What is the mechanism that is being built and how the Centre is going to finance, and whether they will cooperate with the State authorities for dredging of rivers?" My second question was: "How the river mouths are going to be opened?" These are the specific questions which I had mentioned.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude now.

SHRI B. MAHTAB : Sir, I have a suggestion to the Minister. My second point is, if money is being released in advance by the Centre, it may be from the NCCF or CRF, why the Centre is charging interest on it. One aspect has been raised by the hon. Members from Bihar. Why the Centre is charging interest on it, if certain quarters are taking more advances to meet the exigencies.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister will reply now.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI PRABODH PANDA : Sir, I would like to put only one question. … (Interruptions)

SHRI ANIL BASU : Let the hon. Minister reply. … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record except the hon. Minister’s reply.

(Interruptions)* SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY : As of today, more than 200 villages in the Bodoland Territory are still submerged under flood waters and no relief has reached many of them. … (Interruptions)

* Not Recorded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister may begin his reply now.

… (Interruptions)

श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : मेरे संसदीय क्षेत्र के अधीन दो सौ से ज्यादा गांव अभी भी पानी में डूबे हुए हैं। उनको बचाने के लिए आप क्या काम कर रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN : Sir, I associate with Shri Mahtab and request the hon Minister to consider … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the Minister reply now. After that we will continue with the other Short Duration Discussion.

SHRI SARBANANDA SONOWAL (DIBRUGARH): Sir, there is a report of irregularities committed by the State Government in the disbursement of Rice to flood victims in Assam. This is a serious rice scam in Assam. This matter came up for discussion in the recently-concluded session of the Assam Assembly also. I request the hon. Minister to examine these reports thoroughly and ensure that the culprits are brought to book.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please resume your seat. Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN : Sir, I have only one request to make. To my misfortune, the hon. Minister was not present when I spoke yesterday. I associate myself with what Shri Bhartruhari Mahtab has said about dredging of rivers. I spoke about dredging of Subarnarekha river in my district and asked for the Central assistance. I appeal to the hon. Minister to … (Interruptions)

श्री अनिल बसु : छ: साल कुछ नहीं किया, अब क्या कह रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record. Let the Minister reply.

(Interruptions)* * Not Recorded.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I will endeavour to reply to the questions. The first question from Bihar was as to why the market price and why not the BPL price. This price-fixing is done by my colleague in the other Ministry. I will bring the issue and your feelings to their notice. The information that I can give you now on this is that the price is not given by the State Government, it is given through NCCF.

As far as the drought in Bihar is concerned, we will certainly take care of that also. There are some States in which some portions are affected by drought and some portions are affected by flood. Therefore, it is not correct to pay attention only to the flood-affected areas and neglect the drought-affected areas. We will take care of these things.

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी (भागलपुर) : बिहार ने सूखे के लिए २५८ करोड़ रुपये मांगे लेकिन आपने एक पैसा नहीं दिया।…( व्यवधान) They have demanded Rs.258 crore for drought. Shrimati Rabri Devi gave a memorandum to the Central Government demanding Rs.258 crore for drought relief work and the Minister has not even mentioned it.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: That is not correct, I spoke only about Assam and Bihar.

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : आपने इतना कम पैसा दिया है, उससे क्या होगा। आपने आसाम को ज्यादा पैसा दिया और बिहार को कम दिया।…( व्यवधान)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: As far as Kerala is concerned, one issue was raised that Kerala suffered from drought for the last two years or more. We will certainly keep this in mind. We have changed the rules for helping people. We have decided as to what kind of steps should be taken to help people if the State has suffered from drought for one year only, or two years, or three years also. This will also be taken into account while extending help.

An hon. Member wanted to know as to whether enhanced amount can be given under NCCF. We will look into this and try to do as much as possible.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : No further questions. Mr. Minister need not reply to the queries. That is the end of the matter.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: All those rules would be taken care of. As far as Gujarat is concerned, power sector is affected. I know it. Because of the floods, the power-generating stations were inundated. We will try to see as to how it can be helped. But not through this but through some other measures, we will try to help.

As far as drought is concerned, it is certainly a tragedy. For some days, Gujarat had suffered from drought and immediately after that rain poured cats and dogs in Gujarat. Gujarat is suffering from the flood condition. These two things will be kept in mind while extending the help. … (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUSUDAN MISTRY: Rs.56 crore has been agreed…… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: This is according to the CRFM. … (Interruptions)It is not possible for me to speak about all the States one by one. Then, you would say that you come from Maharashtra, why do you not speak about Maharashtra. Shri Athawale asked me the question as to why I did not refer to Maharashtra at all. But then for Shri Athawale’s information and for the people in Maharashtra, I would like to say that we have given nearly Rs.250 crore and nearly three lakh tonnes of foodgrains. That means, it comes to about Rs.500 crores. … (Interruptions)

SHRI MOHAN S. DELKAR : What about Dadra and Nagar Haveli?

SHRI SHIRAJ V. PATIL: We have taken care of it. I have the information and I will give the information if you want later on. I cannot go on talking about each and every State.

SHRI SHAILENDRA KUMAR : What about Uttar Pradesh?

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: For Uttar Pradesh also, the same principle applies. The principle which applies to Bihar and Assam, will apply to Uttar Pradesh also. If you have suffered from floods, we will help. There are areas which are suffering because of the drought conditions.सूखे की वजह से अगर कोई तकलीफ हो रही है तो उसमें भी हम मदद करेंगे। हमने परसों बैठकर कानून चेंज किये हैं, रूल्स चेंज किए हैं। उसमें ऐसा कानून चेंज किया है कि सूखे की वजह से लोगों को काम नहीं मिलता है तो हर घर में एक आदमी को पन्द्रह दिन के लिए काम देना ही है और पांच कि.ग्रा. के हिसाब से अनाज देना है। उसके साथ-साथ जो काश्तकार होते हैं, उनको अगर बीज बोने हैं और बीज नहीं है तो बीज के लिए पैसा देना है और उसके बाद समझो कि किसी ने नहीं बोया है तो उसके बाद हर काश्तकार को एक एकड़ के लिए एक हजार देना पड़ेगा। सारे कानून बने हुए हैं। सरकार की तरफ से जो डिमांड्स आएंगी, उनको देखकर हम जितनी सहानुभूति पूर्वक मदद कर सकते हैं, वह हम करेंगे।…( व्यवधान)मध्य प्रदेश का जो सुझाव है, बहुत अच्छा सुझाव है।

SHRI SHAILENDRA KUMAR : Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hereafter, no need to give answers. Mr. Minister, please conclude.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: We will take into account as to how to implement that suggestion. We are training our ex-servicemen and others also. I do not think anything more is required. … (Interruptions)

श्री रघुनाथ झा : सभापति महोदय, एक बात का उत्तर नहीं मिला है। आपने अपने उत्तर में भी कहा था कि स्थायी समाधान के लिए बिहार में…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: The discussion is over on this subject.

… (Interruptions)

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : बिहार के साथ अन्याय मत करिए।…( व्यवधान)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : महोदय, हमारी बात भी सुनी जाए। …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members may please resume their seats.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Ram Kripal Yadav will continue his speech on the discussion on power situation.

Before that, if the House agrees, the time of the House can be extended.

… (Interruptions)

18.00 hrs. श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी:हमारे साथ अन्याय किया गया है। हम इसे स्वीकार नहीं करेंगे। बिहार को कुछ नहीं मिला है।…( व्यवधान)

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI BIJOY HANDIQUE): We have to conclude the discussion today.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Now I have decided to continue till 7.00 p.m. SHRI ANIL BASU : No. 18.01 hrs. (At this stage, Shri Sansuma Khunggur Bwiswmuthiary and some other hon. Members came and stood on the floor near the Table.) SHRI BIJOY HANDIQUE: The discussion will conclude today except for the hon. Minister’s reply.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: The discussion on Power will continue. Shri Ram Kripal Yadav to continue his speech.

… (Interruptions)

18.02 hrs. (At this stage, Shri Sansuma Khunggur Bwiswmuthiary and some other hon. Members went back to their seats.) … (Interruptions)

SHRI ANIL BASU : I have a point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI ANIL BASU : Sir, the mood of the House is to adjourn the House till tomorrow.

… (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF POWER (SHRI P.M. SAYEED): May I have your attention please? The time of the House may be extended by one hour for the discussion on Power so that the reply can be given tomorrow at 2 o’clock.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Ram Kripal Yadav to continue his speech.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I request the hon. Members to take their seats. Shri Ram Kripal Yadav will continue his speech.

… (Interruptions)

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी:११५ करोड़ रुपए दिए और ८५ करोड़ रुपए अनाज के नाम पर वापस ले लिए। इस तरह से बिहार के साथ केन्द्र की सरकार ने न्याय नहीं किया। बिहार के साथ अन्याय किया जा रहा है। … (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You are playing politics in this. That will not help you. I have already said that as far as price of foodgrains is concerned, we can have a look at it. Moreover, the price of foodgrains is not given by the State Governments. It is given by the NCCF.

… (Interruptions)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव:गृह मंत्री जी, मैं आपको बड़ी विनम्रता के साथ कहना चाहता हूं, आपने अपने जवाब में स्पष्ट कहा है कि बिहार को जो मिलेगा, वह हम तय नहीं करते, दूसरा विभाग प्राइस तय करेगा और वह एन.सी.सी.एफ. में शामिल हो जाएगा। वह पैसा उसी सिस्टम से जाएगा और इसीलिए आपने ११५ करोड़ रुपए जो दिए, उसमें से ८५ करोड़ रुपए ले लिए इसका यही तो मतलब हुआ।

श्री शिवराज वी. पाटिल: आपने जो कहा, उसको मैंने हां कह दिया। अगर आप नहीं लेना चाहें तो वह आपकी मर्जी है।

मैंने यह भी कहा है कि यह जो प्राइस है इसको हम देखेंगे। …( व्यवधान)गोदाम में सड़ने के बजाए कैसे आपको दिया जाए, इसको देखेंगे।इसके बाद भी अगर आप कहना चाहते हैं कि आपकी ताकत अनाज लेने की नहीं है तो आपकी मर्जी है।…( व्यवधान)मैंने कहा है सीआरएफ और सीआरएफ के प्राइस हम देते हैं, स्टेट प्राइस नहीं देती है।…( व्यवधान)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : सीआरएफ, एनसीसीएफ से और योजना आयोग से कितना पैसा बिहार को दिया गया, यह बताएं।…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Now, I call Shri Suresh Prabhakar Prabhu to speak on the discussion under Rule 193 regarding situation arising out of shortage of power in the country.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record except the speech of Shri Suresh Prabhakar Prabhu.

(Interruptions)* श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : सर, हमने जो सवाल पूछा था, उसका उत्तर हमें अभी तक नहीं मिला। बोडो-लैंड के २०० से ज्यादा गांव पानी में डूबे हुए हैं, उनके लिए हिंदुस्तान की सरकार क्या कर रही है…( व्यवधान)उसके लिए हिंदुस्तान की सरकार की तरफ से कितना पैसा दिया गया…( व्यवधान)अगर ऐसेdiscussion चलता रहेगा तो हमारे बोर्डलैंड में आदमी कैसे जिंदा रहेगा।…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Ram Kripal Yadav, I had called your name several times but you did not speak. So, now I have called the name of Shri Suresh Prabhakar Prabhu.

… (Interruptions)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : आरजेडी आपके जवाब से संतुष्ट नहीं है। …( व्यवधान)बिहार भिखमंगा नहीं है, हम आपके पैसे के मोहताज नहीं हैं। बिहार की समस्या का स्थाई समाधान कीजिए।…( व्यवधान)१० साल, २० साल, कितना समय लगेगा? आपकी लाँगटर्म पॉलिसी क्या है? हम बिहार के हित के साथ कोई समझौता नहीं कर सकते हैं। बाढ़-पीड़ितों की समस्या के साथ कोई समझौता नहीं कर सकते हैं।…( व्यवधान)हम आपके जवाब का प्रतिकार कर रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)हम बिहार के साथ अन्याय बर्दाश्त नहीं करेंगे।…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, please resume your seats.

… (Interruptions)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : आप जवाब सही नहीं दे रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)

18.08 hrs. (At this stage, Dr. Arun Kumar Sarma and some other hon. Members came and stood on the floor near the Table.) … (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, please go back to your seats.

… (Interruptions)

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : एक तरफ ११५ करोड़ रुपये दे रहे हैं और दूसरे हाथ से ८५ करोड़ रुपये ले रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)

SHRI DEVENDRA PRASAD YADAV : हमें पैसा नहीं चाहिए। We are not beggars before the Central Government.… (Interruptions)हम पांच बार से एमपी रहे हैं। एमपी गुस्सा कर सकता हैं लेकिन मनिस्टर को गुस्सा नहीं आना चाहिए।

श्री राम कृपाल यादव : बिहार के साथ अन्याय हो रहा है।…( व्यवधान)

SHRI DEVENDRA PRASAD YADAV : Sir, we are dissatisfied with the answer given on the floor of the House. … (Interruptions) We are not going to tolerate this behaviour of the hon. Home Minister.… (Interruptions) It is an unprecedented gesture in the House… (Interruptions)

18.09 hrs. (At this stage, Dr. Arun Kumar Sarma and some other hon. Members went back to their seats.) श्री राजीव रंजन सिंह ‘ललन’:इसके बारे में स्थाई समाधान होना चाहिए।

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : हमने पहले भी संसद का घेराव किया था और अब फिर बाढ़-पीड़ितों को बुलाकर संसद का घेराव करेंगे।

श्री शिवराज वि. पाटील : मैं यह कहने जा रहा था कि जो अनाज दिया जाता है, उसका पैसा सीआरएफ और एनसीसीएफ से लिया जाता है। …( व्यवधान)आप शांति से सुनिए। दूसरी बात मैंने यह कही, जो शायद आपने नहीं सुनी, वह यह है कि यदि हमारा गोडाउन में अनाज सड़ता है तो हम महंगा क्यों देंगे? लेकिन इसका फैसला होम मनिस्ट्री नहीं करती है, फूड मनिस्ट्री करती है, वही करेगी। तीसरी बात यह थी कि इसे मार्किट प्राइस पर देंगे या बीपीएल पर देंगे या बिना पैसा लिए देंगे या सीआरएफ से लेंगे? हम इसके ऊपर सोचेंगे। इतना कहने के बाद यदि आपकी समस्या का समाधान नहीं हुआ तो मैं क्या कहूं जिससे आपकी समस्या का समाधान हो सके।

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : समस्या का समाधान नहीं हुआ इसलिए स्पीकर साहब ने नियम १९३ के तहत इस पर चर्चा कराने के लिए एलाऊ किया। ऐसे समय में सरकार की संयुक्त जिम्मेदारी थी। सभी संबंधित मंत्री यहां आते और सभी प्वाइंट्स पर क्लैरफिकेशन देते। यह जवाब बिल्कुल अधूरा है। इसमें संशोधन करना चाहिए।

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : आपने १२५ करोड़ रुपए दिए। आप अनाज के नाम पर पैसे काटेंगे। यदि काटेंगे तो इसका मतलब यह हुआ कि वह पैसा बिहार को नहीं मिला। आपको पांच लाख मटि्रक टन मुफ्त अनाज देना चाहिए जिस के बदले में केन्द्र सरकार कोई पैसा न ले। अनाज के भंडार भरे पड़े हैं जहां अनाज सड़ रहा है। अगर आप एनसीएफ से पैसा काटेंगे तो क्या फायदा हुआ। हमारी मांग है कि बिहार को जितना अनाज चाहिए वह अनाज बिना पैसे के दिया जाए। एनसीसीएफ से न काटा जाए।

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: You are right. आप मेरी बात समझ नहीं रहे हैं। मेरी बात शांति से सुनें। आपको सब बात पता चल जाएगी। आपने बिल्कुल दुरुस्त कहा कि आप मार्किट प्राइस से ले रहे हैं या बीपीएल प्राइस से ले रहे हैं? …( व्यवधान)

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : हमें मुफ्त अनाज चाहिए।

श्री शिवराज वि पाटील: आपने जो कुछ कहा, क्या आप उसका जवाब सुनना नहीं चाहते हैं? क्या आपको केवल बोलने का अधिकार है? उनका कहना था कि मार्किट प्राइस से देंगे, बीपीएल प्राइस से देंगे? मैंने इस बात का विरोध नहीं किया है। क्या भाषण देते समय डसिजन लिया जाता है। ऐसे डसिजन कैबिनेट में लिए जाते हैं। आप सब मंत्रिमंडल में रहे हैं। मैंने यह भी कहा कि बीपीएल पर क्यों होगा, अनाज सड़ रहा है और यदि सड़ रहा अनाज लोगों के मुंह में जाता है तो बुरी बात नहीं है।I went one step ahead of you. क्या आप समझते हैं कि केवल एक मंत्री पूरे कैबिनेट की ओर से जवाब दे सकता है? ऐसा नहीं होता है। आपने जो बात कही, मैंने उसका जवाब दिया लेकिन आपने उसे ध्यान से नहीं सुना और उत्तेजित हो गए। इसका क्या फायदा है?

१८.१३hrs. (Shri Arjun Sethi in the Chair) आपने बाढ़ का परमानैंट सॉल्यूशन निकालने की बात कही। इसका परमानैंट सॉल्यूशन यह है कि डैम बनाए जाएं। असम में डैम बनने के लिए कार्रवाई शुरु हुई लेकिन कुछ लोग कोर्ट चले गए जिससे काम बंद है। इसका दूसरा परमानैंट सॉल्यूशन यह है कि रिवर लिंकेज करें लेकिन यह प्रश्न इतना बड़ा है कि उसके लिए सरकार के पास पैसा नहीं हो सकता। इसके बाद कोई स्टेट कहती है कि मेरी स्टेट का पानी उधर है जिसे हल करना है। तीसरी बात ड्रेनेज का काम है। ड्रेनेज का काम कुछ तरीके से गंगा की स्वच्छता से जुड़ा मामला है। इसके लिए जो पैसा रखा गया है, वह ज्यादा नहीं है। सिल्िंटग निकालने का जो काम है, वह बहुत ज्यादा नहीं हो पाया है। चौथी बात यह है कि फ्लड से नुकसान न हो, इसके लिए मैट्रोलॉजिकल इनफर्मेशन देने की बात है। इसकी भी यहां चर्चा हो गई। मैं शायद ये सब बातें हिन्दी में बोलता…( व्यवधान)

श्री राजीव रंजन सिंह ‘ललन"""": यह नेपाल के साथ जुड़ा मामला है जो पॉलटिकल लैवल पर आपकी सरकार को तय करना है।...( व्यवधान)

श्री शिवराज वी पाटील:आप बैठिए। बार-बार उठने से मैं जवाब नहीं दे सकूंगा। आपकी बात सही है। मैं खुद नेपाल गया था और नेपाल की सरकार से बात की थी।

मैं आज नहीं, २० साल पहले नेपाल गया था मगर नेपाल सरकार तैयार नहीं होती तो क्या किया जाये? जब एक प्रान्त का दूसरे प्रान्त के साथ पानी के मामले में मतभेद हैं और जब हिन्दुस्तान तथा नेपाल की सरकार की बात हो तो नेपाल की सरकार को तैयार होना चाहिये लेकिन वह तैयार नहीं है। नेपाल सरकार के मन में शंकायें हैं जिन्हें दूर करने की जरूरत है....( व्यवधान)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : लेकिन जो डिटेल्ड प्रोजैक्ट बनना था?

श्री शिवराज वि पाटील :यह इरिगेशन मनिस्टर बतायें, मैं नहीं बता सकता।

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : जब इस मसले पर बहस हो रही थी तो सभी मनिस्टर्स को रहना चाहिये था।

श्री शिवराज वि पाटील: सारी कैबिनट यहां नहीं बैठ सकती।

प्रो. राम गोपाल यादव : सभापति महोदय, होम मनिस्टर ऐसे नहीं कह सकतेWhen a Minister speaks, it is assumed that he is speaking on behalf of the Government.

जब वे पूरे हाउस में जवाब दे रहे हैं।You will have to reply on behalf of every Ministry.

For the first time I have come to know that the relief given by the Central Government is not a relief. जब एक जानवर सड़ा हुआ अनाज नहीं खा सकता तो क्यों नहीं हम निजी गोदाम से पैसे देकर अनाज खरीद कर खा सकते? क्या केन्द्र सरकार का अहसान है? ऐसा मैं पहली बार सुन रहा हूं। हम यह जानना चाहते हैं कि क्या मुफ्त अनाज दिया जायेगा?

श्री शिवराज वि पाटील: आप इसका अर्थ गलत न निकालें। अगर आपको ऐसा लगता है कि गोदाम में जो अनाज है, वह नहीं लेना है और केवल आपको पैसा चाहिये तो उसके बारे में विचार किया जा सकता है मगर हमारे पास गोदाम में अनाज है।

PROF. RAM GOPAL YADAV : It should be free of cost. Assistance means free of cost.

श्री शिवराज वि पाटील:आप उन्हें बता सकते हैं।…( व्यवधान)अगर आप मेरे कहे हुये हर वाक्य पर खड़े हो जायेंगे तो कैसे चलेगा? मै आपको पहले ही बता रहा हूं कि यहां पूछा गया। आप लोग बी.पी.एल. की कीमत पर अनाज मांग रहे थे, यह बिहार के लोगों ने पूछा है, आप उनसे पूछिये।…( व्यवधान)

यह न आपकी प्रतिष्ठा का सवाल है, न स्टेट गवर्नमेंट की प्रतिष्ठा का सवाल है, न सैंट्रल गवर्नमेंट की प्रतिष्ठा का सवाल है और न मेरी प्रतिष्ठा का सवाल है। यह लोगों की दिक्कत का सवाल है। सरकार की ओर से उसका मन खुला हुआ है। आप जितना बोल रहे हैं, मैंने पहले ही कह दिया है कि सारी बातों का जवाब मैं नहीं दे सकता। मगर आप लोगों ने जितना कहा है, उसे ध्यान में रखकर हम पौलिसी बनायेंगे। क्या एक मनिस्टर पौलिसी के बारे में स्टेटमेंट कर सकता है कि हम ऐसा करेंगे, वैसा करेंगे। हम केवल कैबिनट में आपकी बातों को ध्यान में रखकर पौलिसी बनाकर आपकी मदद कर सकते हैं मगर आप इस तरह से बात कहें, उसका क्या फायदा है? आपने जो बातें कहीं, उन्हें मैंने ध्यान में रखा है।

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : सभापति महोदय, मैं केवल एक बात कहना चाहूंगा कि यहां सदन के सभी माननीय सदस्यों की एक ही भावना है कि जो अनाज दिया गया है, न वह बी.पी.एल. में न मार्किट के रेट पर बल्कि वह मुफ्त दिया जाये।

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please hear me.

… (Interruptions)

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : आप मंत्रिमंडल में इस पर विचार करें कि बिना पैसे लिये अनाज दिया जाये।

MR. CHAIRMAN: We already have had enough of discussion. Members have already put forth their views.

… (Interruptions)

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : सभापति जी, हमारे जीने-मरने का सवाल है…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, can you not call a meeting of all these Members and have a discussion with them?

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: The discussion has already been over. If the Members are still dissatisfied, I request the Minister to have a discussion with all the concerned Members separately, either in his chamber or somewhere else personally.

… (Interruptions)MR. CHAIRMAN: If this kind of discussion continues, there will be no end to it.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I am agreeable to it.… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is better to have a discussion in the Minister’s chamber.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: We may now move on to the next subject. Shri Ram Kripal Yadav.

… (Interruptions)

DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : Sir, three hon. Members from Assam have raised queries and the hon. Home Minister has yet to respond.… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: We had enough discussion on this subject. Members have expressed their views more than once. Please, sit down.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY : He should reply to our questions also… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Hon. Minister can write to you.

18.20 hrs. (At this stage, Shri Sansuma Khunggur Bwiswmuthiary came and stood on the floor near the Table.) MR. CHAIRMAN: Please go back to your seat.

… (Interruptions)

18.21 hrs. (At this stage, Shri Sansuma Khunggur Bwiswmuthiary went back to his seats.) श्री सीताराम सिंह (शिवहर) : यह परमानैन्ट सोल्यूशन पर बोलेंगे, अस्थायी सोल्यूशन पर नहीं।

… (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, I can realise the anguish of the hon. Members. I have, in fact, replied to the questions more on Assam and Bihar and yet if they want some more information, I will give them the information if they come into the corridor or into my chamber. If you give me the time, I could reply all the questions on the floor of the House also… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: You can write to them.

… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have suggested to the hon. Minister to write to you regarding your questions. Everything cannot be discussed here.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI ANIL BASU : Sir, the Minister of State in the Ministry of Water Resources is here. He must speak something… (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you willing to say something?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF WATER RESOURCES (SHRI JAY PRAKASH NARAYAN YADAV): Yes, Sir.

डॉ. रामकृष्ण कुसमरिया (खजुराहो) : पचास वर्ष तक परमानैन्ट सोल्यूशन नहीं किया, अब क्या करेंगे।

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let us hear him now. He will speak about the permanent solution.

   

श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव : सभापति महोदय, बाढ़ और सुखाड़ की समस्या से निजात पाने पर चर्चा चल रही है और इसका क्या हल हो सकता है। …( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please be seated. He will reply to your questions. The hon. Minister is speaking.

श्री सुशील कुमार मोदी : सभापति महोदय, एन.डी.ए. ने यह स्टैंड लिया हुआ है जो दागी मंत्री हैं, उनका हम बहिष्कार करेंगे। श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव के ऊपर भी भ्रष्टाचार का मुकदमा है, इसलिए हम लोग सदन का बहिष्कार करते हैं।

18.23 hrs. ( Shri Sushil Kumar Modi and some other hon. Members then left the House.)  श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव : सभापति महोदय, माननीय गृह मंत्री जी ने विस्तार से बाढ़ और सुखाड़ के विषय पर चर्चा में बताया कि सरकार किन-किन कामों के माध्यम से बाढ़ से बचाव करने का काम करेगी और कैसे सुखाड़ की समस्या का निदान करने का काम करेगी।…( व्यवधान)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. Let him reply.

श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव:श्री रामकृपाल यादव, श्री सीताराम सिंह तथा अन्य माननीय सांसदों ने जो सवाल यहां उठाये हैं कि बाढ़ का स्थायी निदान क्या हो सकता है। बाढ़ बिहार, आसाम, पश्चिम बंगाल और पूर्वी उत्तर प्रदेश के लिए एक राष्ट्रीय समस्या है और यह अंतरराष्ट्रीय समस्या भी है। इसके हल के लिए बड़े ही सुविचारित ढंग से नेपाल से समन्वय और वार्ता करके बेहतर प्रयास किये जा रहे हैं। इसके कुछ नतीजे भी सामने आये हैं। यह यू.पी.ए. सरकार की विक्ट्री है। लगातार प्रयास हो, इसके लिए चर्चा होती रहे। लेकिन कभी भी इसका ख्याल नहीं किया गया। जो बाढ़ की विनाशकारी लीला पूरे इलाके को बरबाद करते हुए समुद्र में चली जाती थी। आज १७ तारीख है, आज यू.पी.ए. सरकार की विक्ट्री है, क्योंकि नेपाल में कोसी, सप्तकोसी और सनकोसी के ऊपर हाई डैम बने, इसके लिए ३० करोड़ रुपये की स्वीकृति सरकार ने दी है और हमारे अधिकारी नेपाल पहुंच गये हैं और नेपाल में सप्तकोसी पर हाई डैम बनाने के लिए आज हमारा कार्यालय खुल गया है। इसी ढंग से कमला और बागमती में ज्यादा पानी आया और एक दिन में नियाजगढ़, जो नेपाल का इलाका है, वहां ४४० मिलीमीटर वर्षा हुई और भयावह तथा प्रलयंकारी द्ृश्य उपस्थित किया। हम लोग इस पर विचार कर रहे हैं, सरकार गंभीरता से विचार कर रही है कि कैसे हम नेपाल से वार्ता करके गंडक, कमला, बागमती और अदवारा समूह को समेटकर इसके ऊपर हाई डैम बनाने की चर्चा करें।

इसके लिए भी विस्तार से विचार-विमर्श चल रहा है। समस्या का स्थायी समाधान हो, इसके लिए हाई डैम ही एक उपाय है क्योंकि सारी नदियां नेपाल से आती हैं। साथ-साथ जो कमला और बागमती नदियां हैं, कैसे उनको जोड़कर पानी को गंगा में ले जाने का काम करें यह भी स्थायी निदान है। इसके साथ साथ रेज़िंग, इरोज़न और एम्बैम्कमैंट की मरम्मत के लिए २८४ करोड़ रुपये गंडक बेसिन की सफाई के लिए, गाद निकालने के लिए दिये गये हैं। आगे भी अन्य ऐसी योजनाएं हैं उस पर २-३ तारीख को विज्ञान भवन में मीटिंग हुई और सारे चीफ सैक्रेटरी और एग्रिकल्चर मनिस्टर्स को बुलाया गया। उसका कार्यालय जल्दी खोला जाएगा। उसमें ज्यादा समय नहीं लगेगा।

इसके साथ साथ असम, पश्चिम बंगाल और अरुणाचल का जो इलाका बाढ़ से प्रभावित है, जहां ब्रहमपुत्र से पानी आता है और उससे बरबादी होती है, उसके लिए भी गंभीरता से विचार हो रहा है।

श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : भूटान सरकार के साथ भूटान से निकलने वाली नदियों के ऊपर वभिन्न प्रकार की योजना शुरू करने के मुद्दे पर क्या बातचीत चल रही है?

श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव : प्रधान मंत्री जी जब असम और बिहार के दौरे पर गए थे तो उन्होंने कहा था कि एक टास्क फोर्स बनाई जाएगी कि कैसे इसका इंतज़ाम हो। वह कमेटी रिपोर्ट देगी। उसके बाद उस पर कार्रवाई करने का काम किया जाएगा। बाढ़ का सवाल राष्ट्रीय और अंतर्राष्ट्रीय है इसलिए इस पर हमें गंभीरता से विचार करना चाहिए। इसके साथ साथ हमें तात्कालिक और दूरगामी राहत के उपाय करने होंगे। अभी तात्कालिक राहत के कार्यों में हम देख रहे हैं कि जो एम्बैंकमैंट टूटे हैं, कैसे उनको जोड़ा जाए। यानी बाढ़ का मैनेजमैंट हम करेंगे तो सुखाड़ का भी मैनेजमैंट होगा। ये दोनों विषय एक दूसरे से जुड़े हुए हैं। इसकी डीटेल्ड प्रोजैक्ट रिपोर्ट बनेगी।

श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : वह कब तक तैयार होगी? कुछ समय तो बताइए।

श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव : ३० महीने में डीटेल्ड प्रोजैक्ट रिपोर्ट बनकर तैयार हो जाएगी। उसके बाद आगे कार्यवाही होगी। इसका कार्यालय बनाने के लिए हमारे अधिकारी वहां गए हैं।

श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : बिहार के बारे में बता रहे हैं लेकिन बोडोलैन्ड अंचल और असम की जो नदियां हैं, उन पर प्रकल्प बनाना चाहते हैं तो उसके बारे में भी बताएं।

श्री जयप्रकाश नारायण यादव : देश का कोई भी राज्य बाढ़ प्रभावित है तो समेकित रूप से देखते हुए सबका स्थायी निदान करने का प्रयास है। बाढ़ और सुखाड़ दोनों विनाश और प्रलय लाते हैं और देश में भयावह स्थिति पैदा करते हैं। इसलिए दोनों पर विचार करके देखेंगे कि सूखे इलाकों में भी पानी का बेहतर प्रबंधन हो। अगर चैक डैम बनें, डैम बनें, नहरों की सफाई होगी तो पानी का बेहतर प्रबंधन होगा। भूजल स्तर प्रबंधन होगा तो तालाब, पॉन्ड्ज़, लिफ्ट इर्रिगेशन और दूसरी योजनाओं को पूरा करके बेहतर तरीके से सुखाड़ के क्षेत्रों में पानी पहुंचाकर हम खेतों को सिंचित कर सकेंगे।

महोदय, किसान इस देश की रीढ़ है। किसानों को सुविधा देना और उन्हें उचित साधन मुहैया करना हमारा फर्ज़ और कर्तव्य है। इसलिए बाढ़ और सुखाड़ का निदान स्थायी रूप से करना हमारा धर्म है। हम राज्य सरकारों से बात करके और समन्वय करके बेहतर तरीके से इस पर विचार करके काम करेंगे।

SHRI ANIL BASU : Sir, your contribution is also there.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Sir, our friends from Assam have also put some questions. They have given their questions in writing. So, I would like to reply to their questions also.

One of the questions is about their demand of Rs. 6 crores. I have explained as to how funds can be given to them. We will look into it as to whether it can be given through the CRF or the NCCF, the planning and other things. We will look into it as to what can be done.

The second question is about disaster management and whether it can be improved or not. Yes, it can be improved.

DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : In the headquarters of flood-prone districts, a disaster management team should be maintained. It is because everybody cannot rush from Delhi with a helicopter.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: I will explain that point. The disaster management is mainly looked after or done by the State Government. Now, the Central Government is helping them. As a matter of fact, we have asked all the State Governments to create machinery for helping the people. They shall have to prepare the policies, they shall have to prepare the laws and especially the mechanism for helping the people. They shall have to earmark the funds which can be used for the purpose and they shall have to have the communication system. They should get the information and put it on the network. … (Interruptions) Then they get the information. My friend wants to know as to what we are doing for all these purposes. We are doing the same thing at the national level for connecting the Union Government with the State Government. After the State Government creates this agency, they will go to the districts.… (Interruptions) The Central Government will help the State Governments and the State Governments will go to the districts and beyond the districts also. This concept of disaster management is completely new. We are putting it in place and are trying to create things like policies, law, machinery and communication facilities. Your suggestion is really a very good suggestion. District planning, district disaster management and district implementation have to be done. In some States, district planning has started but district disaster management has not started. We are leaving it to the State Governments to do it. This is something which has to be done through the agencies of the State Government. From here, we are helping them with funds. We are helping them with foodgrains and we are helping with aircraft, medicines and meteorological information. We are helping them with communication system. They shall have to do it.

Your idea is a good idea. We have suggested it to the State Governments also. At this point of time, we have gone up to the State level, and beyond the State level, we have to go to the district level and that has to be implemented.

My friend from Bodoland is now worried about the people living in the Bodoland and that they are discriminated against. If something of this nature is happening, we will certainly look into it. We have a monitoring agency. That monitoring agency can go to the State Government and can go to Bodoland also and find out whether the foodgrains given to the people living there is less than the foodgrains given to others. If that kind of a thing is happening and if it is there, we can take corrective steps.

Now, it is not possible for us to explain all these things because if I have to go to each point, then it becomes very difficult. You have made so many good points and, of course, all of you have made good points. We have noted them down. The record is there and we will act upon them.… (Interruptions)

DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : Sir, I have a query to make.

MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. Minister has explained everything in detail.

श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : सभापति महोदय, मेरे एक सवाल का जवाब अभी तक नहीं मिला है। मेरे दो असैम्बली सैगमेंट, सरभोग और भवानीपुर, ऐसे सैगमेंट्स हैं, जिनमें २०० से ज्यादा गांव पानी में डूबे हुए हैं। उसका कारण बेकी नदी है जो भूटान से निकलती है। उसने क्या किया जरा सोचिये । उसका जो आर्जीनल कोर्स था, उसे छोड़ कर लेफ्ट विंग (Left bank) दूसरा कोर्स क्रियेट किया। उस नये कोर्स से सारा पानी पूर्व की तरफ जा रहा है और उससे ५०० से अघिक गांवों को बहुत नुकसान हो रहा है। इसलिए उन गांवों को बचाने के लिए आप क्या कदम उठा रहे हैं, इस बारे में मैं आपसे जवाब चाहता हूं? रिलीफ देने में डिसक्रिम्नेशन हुआ है, असम सरकार ने डेकलेरेशन दिया है, एक आदमी को एक दिन में ६०० ग्राम अनाज देने के लिए कहा, लेकिन तीन-चार दिन के बाद ६०० ग्राम की जगह कहीं पर सिर्फ ३०० और कहीं पर सिर्फ २०० ग्राम ही दिया गया।

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: To satisfy him, I would like to tell that I have taken note of it. If he has further information, he can give it to me. I will speak to the State Government and I will help him to the extent possible.

As far as the discrimination is concerned, we have a machinery to look into it and we will ask that machinery to see and look into it. As regards the names which you have mentioned, they can talk to me privately and I will get this done. I will pass on instructions to the officers to help the State.

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18.53 hrs. The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday, August 18, 2004/Sravana 27, 1926 (Saka).

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