Discussion On The Motion Of Confidence In The Council Of Ministers Moved By Shri ... on 16 April, 1999

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Discussion On The Motion Of Confidence In The Council Of Ministers Moved By Shri ... on 16 April, 1999

Title: Discussion on the motion of Confidence in the Council of Ministers moved by Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee on the 15th April, 1999. (Contd. - Concluded.) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh.

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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ nùiiÉÉ ¨ÉäPÉä (´ÉvÉÉÇ) : +É{É ÊEòºÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ? EòÉèxÉ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ ½þè? ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): Does Shri Prabhunath Singh know that Shri Advani is from Lahore? ....(Interruptions) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<B* ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eòä Fò¨É ¨ÉäÆ xÉèÊiÉEòiÉÉ EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É =`öÉªÉÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ´É½þ ¨É½þºÉÚºÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +±{É¨ÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) =xÉEòÉä ªÉ½þ ¦É®úÉäºÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉèÊiÉEòiÉÉ Eòä +ÉvÉÉ®ú {É®ú <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ nùä nùäMÉÒ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ´É½þ +±{É¨ÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É MÉ<Ç ½þè* ½þ¨É +É¶SÉªÉÇ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉèÊiÉEòiÉÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ? nùÉäxÉÉäÆ BEò ºÉÉlÉ? ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÉÆ ºÉä +ÉiÉÒ ½þè? +É{ÉEòÉ VÉÉä <ÊiÉ½þÉºÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè, +É{ÉEòÉ VÉÉä SÉÊ®újÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè, +É{É BEò ¤ÉÉ®ú +{ÉxÉä {ÉÖ®úÉxÉä SÉÊ®újÉ EòÉä nùäÊJÉªÉä* ÊVÉºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¨ÉÉä®úÉ®úVÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉxÉÒ, +É{ÉxÉä SÉ®úhÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ºÉä Ê¨É±ÉEò®ú =ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®úÉªÉÉ* ÊVÉºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ Ê´É¶´ÉxÉÉlÉ |ÉiÉÉ{É ÊºÉÆ½þ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉxÉÒ, +É{ÉxÉä SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú VÉÒ EòÉä +{ÉxÉä Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉäEò®ú =xÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ vÉÉäJÉÉvÉc÷Ò EòÒ* +É{ÉxÉä nùä´ÉäMÉÉèb÷É ºÉÉ½þ¤É Eòä ºÉÉlÉ vÉÉäJÉÉvÉc÷Ò EòÒ* MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É ºÉÉ½þ¤É ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä ¨ÉÉèVÉÚnù ½þèÆ* ¤ÉäSÉÉ®úä Eòä ºÉÒxÉä {É®ú ®úÉiÉ EòÉä ºÉÉÆ{É ±ÉÉä]õiÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ VÉ¤É VÉ¤É =x½þäÆ ªÉÉnù +ÉiÉÒ ½þÉäMÉÒ* +É{É {É®ú EòÉèxÉ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úäMÉÉ? +É{É xÉèÊiÉEòiÉÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ? +ÉVÉ ºÉä EòÖUô ÊnùxÉ {É½þ±Éä <ºÉÒ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉ¤É Ê¤É½þÉ®ú ¨Éä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ Eòä ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä {É®ú {ÉIÉ +Éè®ú Ê´É{ÉIÉ ¨ÉäÆ SÉSÉÉÇ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉ¡ò iÉÉè®ú {É®ú Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú ½þ¨É <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò +É{É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä ºÉÖÊxÉªÉä +Éè®ú <ºÉä MÉÆ¦ÉÒ®úiÉÉ ºÉä ±ÉÒÊVÉB* ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ +ÉªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò xÉèÊiÉEòiÉÉ Eòä +ÉvÉÉ®ú {É®ú ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ®úÉ¤Éc÷Ò nùä´ÉÒ EòÉä <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä BEò ¨É½þÉºÉÊSÉ´É xÉä MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ºÉä +Éè®ú ®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ºÉä Ê¨É±ÉEò®ú Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ EòÒ <SUôÉ ½þè ÊEò +MÉ®ú xÉèÊiÉEòiÉÉ Eòä +ÉvÉÉ®ú {É®ú <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ iÉÉä EòÉä<Ç EòÉ®úÇ´ÉÉ<Ç ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ VÉ¤É ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ iÉÉä ÊEòºÉÒ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò +¤É iÉÉä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ Eòä +±ÉÉ´ÉÉ EòÉä<Ç Ê´ÉEò±{É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò <ºÉºÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI SUSHIL KUMAR SHINDE (SOLAPUR): Mr. Speaker Sir, he has made a reference to me. I am on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: He has not mentioned the name.

SHRI SUSHIL KUMAR SHIND : I am on a point of order. ....(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: He has not mentioned any name. Please take your seat.

Shri Prabhunath Singh. ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ: ½þ¨É Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò EòÖUô ÊnùxÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ªÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ¤Énù±É MÉ<ÇÆ +Éè®ú <ºÉÒ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ +Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤Énù±É MÉªÉÉ* MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude now. You have taken more than half an hour. ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ (¨É½þÉ®úÉVÉMÉÆVÉ) : ½þ¨ÉxÉä +¦ÉÒ ¶ÉÖ°ü ½þÒ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ½þ¨É Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò VÉÉä lÉÉäc÷ä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤Énù±ÉÒ =ºÉEòä {ÉÒUôä EòÉ®úhÉ EªÉÉ lÉÉ* ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ |É¨ÉÉhÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ºÉä ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÉÆMÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò +É{É VÉÉÆSÉ Eò®ú´ÉÉ<B (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) * MR. SPEAKER: This remark will not go on record.

... (Interruptions)

_____________________________________________________________________________ * Not Recorded 1120 hrs (At this stage, Shri Vilas Muttemwar, Shri Ramdas Athawale and some other hon. Members came and stood on the floor near the Table.) MR. SPEAKER: I have already said that it will not go on record.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I have already given my ruling that it will not go on record.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, you cannot make allegations without substance. Please understand.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I have already given my ruling that it will not go on record. I have already told the hon. Member that he cannot make allegations without any substance. Please go back to your seats.

... (Interruptions)

1125 hrs (At this stage, Shri Vilas Muthemwar, Shri Ramdas Athawale and some other hon. Members went back to their seats.) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<ªÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¶É®únù VÉÒ, +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<ªÉä* ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I allowed Shri Sharad Pawar to speak. You please resume your seats. ¸ÉÒ ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú (¤ÉÉ®úÉ¨ÉiÉÒ) : Ê¨Éº]õ®ú º{ÉÒEò®ú ºÉ®ú, VÉÉä ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú BEò ®úÉ¹]ÅÒªÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ +vªÉIÉÉ ½þèÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Please resume your seats. ¸ÉÒ ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú (¤ÉÉ®úÉ¨ÉiÉÒ) : VÉÉä ´ªÉÊEiÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ºÉnùºªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, BEò ®úÉ¹]ÅÒªÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ +vªÉIÉÉ ½þèÆ, ÊVÉxÉEòä {ÉÊ®ú´ÉÉ®ú xÉä nùä¶É Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÖ¤ÉÉÇxÉÒ nùÒ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) BäºÉä ´ªÉÊEiÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ +ÉVÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ZÉÚ`öÉ +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉxÉÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ {É®ú¨{É®úÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB Ê¤É±EòÖ±É MÉ±ÉiÉ SÉÒVÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨É +ÉVÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ BEò MÉÆ¦ÉÒ®ú ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉ {É®ú ¤É½þºÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉ EòÉìx¡òÒb÷äxºÉ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ Ê´ÉSÉÉ®ú Eòä Ê±ÉB <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä ½þè* <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè, {ÉÚ®úÉ nùä¶É <ºÉ {É®ú vªÉÉxÉ nùä ®ú½þÉ ½þè* BäºÉÒ {ÉÊ®úÊºlÉÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ BEò ºÉ®úÉºÉ®ú ZÉÚ`öÉ <±VÉÉ¨É ±ÉMÉÉxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ xÉä ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* ´É½þ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉEò®ú +{ÉxÉä ¶É¤nù ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ ±Éä, xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ EòÉ¨É SÉ±ÉÉxÉÉ ¨ÉÖÊ¶Eò±É ½þÉäMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä ÊEòºÉÒ ´ªÉÊEiÉ {É®ú +É®úÉä{É xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ Eò±{ÉxÉÉlÉ ®úÉªÉ (PÉÉäºÉÒ) : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨Éä®úÉ ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ EòÉ |É¶xÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : Eò±{ÉxÉÉlÉ VÉÒ, +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<ªÉä* MR. SPEAKER: I have not allowed you. I allowed Shri Prabhunath Singh to speak. Please go to your seat. How can you interfere? This will not go on record.

(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded) ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kalpnath Rai, please go to your seat. I have not allowed you. ¸ÉÒ Eò±{ÉxÉÉlÉ ®úÉªÉ : ¨Éä®úÉ ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ EòÉ |É¶xÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Please go to your seat. This will not go on record. Nothing will go on record except what Shri Prabhunath Singh says.

(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kalpnath Rai, please resume your seat. This is not good. You are a senior Member. Please go to your seat.

________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record. Hon. Members, please understand that we are discussing a very important Motion.

(Interruptions) * MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kalpnath Rai, please go to your seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except the speech of Shri Prabhunath Singh.

(Interruptions) * MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, I am addressing you. Please withdraw your words. You cannot make any allegations without any substance. You should not mention any name and you should not make any allegation without any substance.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Prabhunath Singh, please address the Chair and not anybody else.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ (¨É½þÉ®úÉVÉMÉÆVÉ): +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ EªÉÉ Eò½þ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, ´É½þ iÉÉä +É{É ºÉÖÊxÉªÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: The speech of Shri Prabhunath Singh will only go on record. Nothing else will go on record.

(Interruptions) * _____________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, +MÉ®ú ¨Éä®úä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Fò¨É ¨ÉäÆ ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ... (Interruptions)

1134 hrs (At this stage, Shri Vilas Muttemwar and some other hon. Members came near the Table.) ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: The House stands adjourned to meet again at 1.30 p.m. 1135 hrs The Lok Sabha then adjourned till thirty minutes past Thirteen of the Clock.

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1330 hrs (The Lok Sabha re-assembled at thirty minutes past Thirteen of the Clock) (Shri K. Yerrannaidu in the Chair) OBSERVATION RE: SITTING OF THE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: Some hon. Members met Hon. Speaker and requested that as per past practice, the House should not sit during the lunch hour from 1.00 p.m. to 2.00 p.m. on Fridays. Today being Friday, they requested that the House may accordingly be adjourned upto 2.00 p.m. I hope the House agrees.

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The House is adjourned to meet at 2.00 p.m. 1331 hrs The Lok Sabha then adjourned for Lunch till Fourteen of the Clock.

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14.00 hrs. The Lok Sabha reassembled after lunch at two clock (Mr.Speaker in the chair) MOTION OF CONFIDENCE IN THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS -- cd. ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ (¨É½þÉ®úÉVÉMÉÆVÉ): +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ VÉÒ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ºÉnùºªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¶ÉÉªÉnù ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Fò¨É ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆxÉä =xÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É Ê±ÉªÉÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ ±ÉäiÉÉ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú JÉänù ´ªÉEiÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò 100 Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉB VÉÉä SÉÆnùä Eòä °ü{É ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉäxÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÒ lÉÒ, ´É½þ ®úEò¨É ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ ¡òÉÆ=b÷ä¶ÉxÉ Eòä xÉÉ¨É {É®ú ±ÉÒ MÉ<Ç ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉ ºÉ¨¤ÉxvÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. ºÉä VÉÉÆSÉ Eò®úÉxÉä EòÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú (¤ÉÉ®úÉ¨ÉiÉÒ): ½þ¨É <ºÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ: |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ +É{É iÉÒxÉ PÉÆ]õä ±Éä SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ, +¤É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®úäÆ* ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : ¨ÉÖZÉä {ÉÉÆSÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ +Éè®ú nùä nùÒÊVÉB* +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÒ {ÉÉÊ]õÇªÉÉÆ ¦ÉÒ ½þèÆ ÊVÉxÉEòÉ +ÆOÉäVÉÉäÆ Eòä VÉ¨ÉÉxÉä ºÉä <ÊiÉ½þÉºÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ÊVÉºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ +ÆOÉäVÉ <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä, ªÉä {ÉÉÊ]õÇªÉÉÆ =xÉEòÒ ¤ÉVÉÖÊxÉªÉÉÆ ¤ÉxÉEò®ú ¤ÉÉVÉÉ ¤ÉVÉÉ ®ú½þÒ lÉÒÆ* <ºÉÒ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä <x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò¦ÉÒ Eòäxpù ¨ÉäÆ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÉ ¤ÉÉVÉÉ ¤ÉVÉÉªÉÉ +Éè®ú Eò¦ÉÒ Ê´É{ÉIÉ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú VÉ¤É ¤ÉxÉÒ iÉÉä =ºÉEòÉ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉVÉÉ ¤ÉVÉÉªÉÉ* ¤ÉÉVÉÉ ¤ÉVÉÉiÉä-¤ÉVÉÉiÉä <xÉEòÒ ªÉ½þ ½þÉ±ÉiÉ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè ÊEò ªÉä VÉÉä +ÉVÉ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ, Eò±É ¦ÉÚ±É VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* +É{É |ÉÉäºÉÒÊb÷ÆMÉ =`öÉEò®ú nùäJÉ ±ÉäÆ, ¨ÉèÆ <xÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É ¤ÉiÉÉ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ªÉä Eò¨ªÉÖÊxÉº]õ {ÉÉÊ]õÇªÉÉÆ ½þèÆ, VÉÉä ¤ÉVÉÖÊxÉªÉÉÆ Eòä °ü{É ¨ÉäÆ ¤É®úÉ¤É®ú ¤ÉVÉiÉÒ ®ú½þiÉÒ ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ Eò±É ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ MÉnùÉ ±ÉäEò®ú +ÉªÉÉ ½þÚÆ +Éè®ú Eò½þ ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò ½þ¨ÉäÆ MÉnùÉ SÉ±ÉÉxÉÒ ½þè, |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä EòÖºÉÒÇ UôÉäc÷Eò®ú SÉ±Éä VÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉxÉiÉä ÊEò ´Éä ÊEòºÉ {É®ú MÉnùÉ SÉ±ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* VÉÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ EòÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ ½þè, ´Éä =ºÉ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ {É®ú MÉnùÉ SÉ±ÉÉxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¨Éä®úÉ =xÉºÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ ½þè ÊEò +É{É nùä¶É EòÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ EòÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ {É®ú MÉnùÉ ¨ÉiÉ SÉ±ÉÉBÆ, +É{ÉEòÉä MÉnùÉ SÉ±ÉÉxÉÒ ½þè iÉÉä ÊEòºÉÒ Ê´É®úÉävÉÒ {É®ú SÉ±ÉÉxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É Eò®úäÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ nùä¶É EòÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ EòÒ ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ {É®ú SÉ±ÉÉxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É xÉ Eò®úäÆ* +É{É VÉ¤É ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉÉnù ½þè ¤ÉSÉ{ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉ¤É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉÉSÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ lÉÉ iÉÉä xÉÉSÉ ¨ÉäÆ BEò {ÉÉjÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ lÉÉ, VÉ¤É ´É½þ +Ænù®ú +ÉiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ =ºÉä nùäJÉEò®ú ½þÆºÉxÉä ±ÉMÉiÉä ½þèÆ, <ºÉÒÊ±ÉB VÉ¤É ´Éä JÉc÷ä ½þÉäiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä {ÉÚ®úÉ ºÉnùxÉ `ö½þÉEòÉäÆ ºÉä MÉÚÆVÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* =ºÉ {ÉÉjÉ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ... * ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* <ºÉ ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ EòÒ +VÉÒ¤É ÊºlÉÊiÉ ¤ÉxÉ MÉ<Ç ½þè ÊEò VÉ½þÉÆ <iÉxÉÉ MÉ¨¦ÉÒ®ú ºÉ´ÉÉ±É =`öiÉÉ ½þÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ (´Éè¶ÉÉ±ÉÒ): +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨Éä®úä {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú EòÉä ºÉÖxÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ VÉÉB* ÊEòºÉÒ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ EòÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ +Éè®ú EòSÉ½þ®úÒ EòÒ MÉÊ®ú¨ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉSÉäMÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: If the word .. is objectionable, I will expunge it.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ : <ºÉä |ÉÉäºÉÒÊb÷ÆMÉ ºÉä ½þ]õÉªÉÉ VÉÉB +Éè®ú ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ EòÉä ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ Eòä iÉ½þiÉ, ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ MÉÊ®ú¨ÉÉ Eòä iÉ½þiÉ ®ú½þxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊxÉªÉÆjÉhÉ ¨ÉäÆ ®úJÉxÉÉ +É{ÉEòÉ EòiÉÇ´ªÉ ½þè, <ºÉÒÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉ ºÉÆ®úIÉhÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB BäºÉÉ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. This is an important discussion.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt. What is this? Please sit down.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ MÉÊ®ú¨ÉÉ EòÒ ®úIÉÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É +ÉºÉxÉ EòÉ EòiÉÇ´ªÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉ vªÉÉxÉ +ÉEòÊ¹ÉÇiÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä Eò¨ÉäÆ]ºÉ +Éè®ú Ê]õ{{ÉÊhÉªÉÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ EòÒ VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÒ Ê]õ{{ÉÊhÉªÉÉäÆ EòÉä |ÉÉäºÉÒÊb÷ÆMÉ ºÉä ½þ]õÉªÉÉ VÉÉB +Éè®ú ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ EòÉä ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ ¨ÉäÆ ®ú½þxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊxÉnùÇä¶É ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.

(Interruptions)** ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ: +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, VÉ¤É ºÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÒ ½þè, iÉÒxÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇVÉ ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ, ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉèxÉVÉÒÇ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ +Éè®ú VÉªÉ±ÉÊ±ÉiÉÉ VÉÒ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É SÉSÉÉÇ ¨ÉäÆ ®ú½þÉ ÊEò ªÉä iÉÒxÉ {ÉÉÊ]õÇªÉÉÆ ÊEòºÉÒ xÉ ÊEòºÉÒ ÊnùxÉ <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä Ê±ÉB MÉ±Éä ¨ÉäÆ EòÉÆ]õä EòÉ EòÉ¨É Eò®úäÆMÉÒ* ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉä iÉÉäc÷xÉä EòÒ BEò ºÉÉÊVÉ¶É ½þÖ<Ç* ¤É½þÖiÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ føÆMÉ ºÉä |ÉªÉÉºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ xÉÉ¨É ¦ÉÒ Uô{ÉxÉä ±ÉMÉä ÊEò ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ]õÚ]õ ®ú½þÒ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ ¨Éä®úÉ ¦ÉÒ xÉÉ¨É +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉÉ ®ú½þÉ* <ºÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆ iÉÉä EòÉä]õÇ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉ>ðÆMÉÉ ½þÒ ÊVÉxÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¨Éä®úÉ xÉÉ¨É Ê±ÉªÉÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ SÉ^ÉxÉ EòÒ iÉ®ú½þ BEòiÉÉ EòÉªÉ¨É ÊEòªÉä ½þÖ<Ç ½þè +Éè®ú ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úäMÉÒ* =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò ¦ÉÒ ºÉnùºªÉ <vÉ®ú =vÉ®ú ½þÉäxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉèxÉVÉÒÇ VÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ +É SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ______________________________________________________________________ *Expunged as ordered by the chair ** Not recorded ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, +É{ÉEòÒ ªÉÊnù <SUôÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ VªÉÉnùÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÚÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä Eò½þ ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò +¤É +É{É VÉÉ<B* xÉä½þ°ü VÉÒ Eòä Eò½þxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{É nùÉä ¤ÉÉ®ú |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ½þÉä MÉªÉä* +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ ®úÉVÉxÉèÊiÉEò <ÊiÉ½þÉºÉ +Éè®ú ¦ÉÚMÉÉä±É +É{É =±É]õ Eò®ú nùäJÉ ±ÉÒÊVÉB* =x½þÉäÆxÉä +{ÉxÉä VÉ¨ÉÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ nùäJÉÒ ½þÉäMÉÒ* ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉiÉÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò BEò ¤ÉÉ®ú BEò >ðÆ]õ {ÉJÉÉ®ú Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú VÉ¤É =ºÉ PÉ®ú EòÒ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÊEòxÉ =ºÉä ¦ÉMÉÉ ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ iÉÉä ´É½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ¦ÉÉMÉ ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ* nùÚºÉ®úä PÉ®ú EòÒ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÊEòxÉ xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ªÉ½þ ºÉÚ{É fø{Éfø{ÉÉxÉä ºÉä ¦ÉÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè* <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ´É½þ PÉ®ú ºÉä ºÉÚ{É ±ÉäEò®ú +É<Ç +Éè®ú ºÉÚ{É fø{Éfø{ÉÉxÉä ±ÉMÉÒ* >ðÆ]õ SÉ±É ÊnùªÉÉ iÉÉä =ºÉxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ºÉÚ{É fø{Éfø{ÉÉxÉä ºÉä ¦ÉÉMÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* >ðÆ]õ xÉä PÉÚ¨ÉEò®ú Eò½þÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ±Éc÷É<Ç Eòä ¨ÉènùÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨Éä®úÒ {ÉÒ`ö {É®ú xÉMÉÉc÷É ¤ÉVÉiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ÊSÉÆiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÚ{É fø{Éfø{ÉÉxÉä ºÉä ¦ÉÉMÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ* <ºÉÒ iÉ®ú½þ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ, +É{ÉEòä ºÉÚ{É fø{Éfø{ÉÉxÉä ºÉä EòÉä<Ç +ÆiÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ {Éc÷xÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ½þè* {É½þ±Éä ¦ÉÒ ¤É®úÉ¤É®ú ªÉ½þ SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÉäiÉÒ ®ú½þÒ ÊEò iÉä®ú½þ ÊnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú VÉÉBMÉÒ* BEò ¤ÉÉ®ú SÉ±ÉÒ MÉ<Ç ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Ê¡ò®ú +ÉEò®ú iÉä®ú½þ ¨É½þÒxÉä {ÉÉ®ú Eò®ú MÉ<Ç +Éè®ú +¤É iÉä®ú½þ ´É¹ÉÇ Ê¤ÉiÉÉªÉäMÉÒ* +ÆiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆ BEò ¶É¤nù Eò½þEò®ú ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ>ðÆMÉÉ* <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ xÉªÉÒ {É®ú¨{É®úÉ ¤ÉxÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè* (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ...* <ºÉ {É®ú vªÉÉxÉ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB +Éè®ú <ºÉä MÉÆ¦ÉÒ®úiÉÉ ºÉä ±ÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ: ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ ¦É´ÉxÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÒ VÉÉxÉÒÆ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ___________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded ... (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF POWER, MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF NON-CONVENTIONAL ENERGY SOURCES (SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGALAM): Sir, I request you that the reference to Rashtrapati Bhawan be removed from the record.

MR. SPEAKER: That will not go on record. That may please be removed from the record.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the word .. was used just now by the hon. Member who spoke before me. Since it does not seem to be unparliamentary to you, I can only say that there are several .. in the House...(Interruptions)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise on a very solemn duty now to oppose this Motion. I hope that the day of deliverance will come tomorrow to this country and the people of this country. The direction of this debate is such that as if it is a Motion which has been brought forward by the Opposition, as if it is the Opposition which has to justify why it is expressing lack of confidence in the Council of Ministers.

With all respect and humility, I would like to say that amazing things are happening. Speaker after speaker made imputations. I found that one hon. Member of this House made imputations so far as the Rashtrapathi Bhavan is concerned. Today, I found that one of the leading jurists issued a statement which came out in the Press - he is now a Member of the Rajya Sabha belonging to the BJP - and he is questioning the motives of the hon. Rashtrapathi ji. He says that the President of India has taken a hasty decision. In the agony of their present day motley combination, they are not sparing even the President of India who has shown exemplary attachment to the constitutional principles in this country. We are all very proud of him that he is the Rashtrapathi of India...(Interruptions)

DR. BIZAY SONKAR SHASTRI (SAIDPUR): We are also proud of him.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Why has this Motion been brought forward? b÷É. Ê´ÉVÉªÉ ºÉÉäxÉEò®ú ¶ÉÉºjÉÒ (ºÉènù{ÉÖ®ú): ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ lÉÉ, iÉÉä EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É lÉÉ?

MR. SPEAKER: When the senior Members are speaking, you are not supposed to obstruct them. Please understand this. You must know the procedure also. This is not a good practice.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Only two days back, one of the major parties, which was in the BJP-led alliance, has withdrawn support by writing to the hon. President. Whose fault is it? They are not able to keep their allies together. Is it our fault? On that basis, the hon. Rashtrapathi ji felt that the so called BJP-led coalition, which came to form a Government, could form a Government with the support that was rendered by that party. He, in his wisdom, asked them that a Vote of Confidence should be taken. The hon. Prime Minister takes up an attitude as if the Opposition has committed some crime. He said: "I have nothing to say. Unless there is an alternative, what will the Opposition say? I would like to know about it." The Opposition has not brought forward any proposal to suggest an alternative Government in support of its No Confidence Motion. The Prime Minister has nothing to say in support of his Government or his claim for the confidence vote. He asked that without an alternative, how can we talk about this...(Interruptions) I know his agony that the longer the time it takes, the longer it takes for the voting. What more things can happen? I do not know about it. Nowadays, principles and morality in politics have lost all significance...(Interruptions) I can only say that he is very much worried that there may be an alternative Government. I can only wish to say that whatever be that, the BJP or its cohorts will not be a party to that Government. Therefore, they should know about it. They should not worry so much about what is going to come.

When the BJP withdrew its support to the Vishwanath Pratap Singh Government, Shri Advani, what was the alternative you had suggested? What was the alternative that Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee had suggested? Glibly, they joined hands then with the Congress whom they are criticising so much today.

When the Confidence Motion of Shri Devegowda was defeated, Shri Nitish Kumar, whom did you vote for? Whom did your present mentor vote for? The BJP, then, were openly so happy that the Congress had withdrawn support. They were eulogizing the Congress and the BJP openly joined hands with the Congress. Whom you are abusing today for the purpose of bringing down the Government of Shri Devegowda against whom not a single allegation would be made or against his Government? All sorts of morality you are preaching today; all sorts of politics you are preaching today. Asking for alternative to be suggested by the Opposition before he chooses to make his comments - ½þ¨É ÊºÉ¡òÇ ºÉÖxÉxÉä +ÉB ½þèÆ* +É{É EªÉÉäÆ ÊºÉ¡òÇ ºÉÖxÉxÉä +ÉB ½þèÆ? ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, <ºÉ ´ÉÉºiÉä ÊºÉ¡òÇ ºÉÖxÉxÉä +ÉB ½þèÆ* It is an amazing thing. I have had the great fortune of listening to many of the interventionist speeches of the present Home Minister in this House. But I hope he will not misunderstand me. Yesterday, was the most pathetic performance I had noticed. Probably, he cannot reconcile himself to this seat No.2. Probably, something is in the back of his mind. We heard the laboured and almost misleading guffaws of the Finance Minister. All sorts of make-believe statistics were given which have no relation to the reality. My very good friend, Shri Naqvi, was fighting, as it were, the last battle to maintain his ministership and Shri Vaiko, a very good friend of mine, in a peroration was trying by a last ditch effort, to go and sit on that side, provided this Government lasts. Of course, I do not take all the notice of some parts of his speech for what it is worth.

Sir, we were given many things that have been achieved by this Government, namely, Pokhran, I am trying to quote the hon. Home Minister, Agni, wonderful Budget, Jammu & Kashmir, majority support on the Bihar vote. He also refers in his speech - I do not know how to describe it - to an opinion poll conducted by newspaper rejoinder in support of his submission that Mr. Vajpayee's Government is the ideal Government in this country. He has spoken on Mr. Vajpayee's value based politics. We shall come to that, with your permission. And the Finance Minister, of course, spoke about the mythical foreign investment. Dr. Manmohan Singh has given a reply to them. The mythical foreign exchange improvement and also revival of the sick units. ...

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¦ÉMÉ´ÉÉxÉ ¶ÉÆEò®ú ®úÉ´ÉiÉ (+ÉMÉ®úÉ) : ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ Ê¨ÉºÉ±ÉÒb÷ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : I hope to deal that in the course of my submission later.

Shri Advani referred to with great gusto as to what the Communist Party of India (Marxists) said about the Congress Party in its manifesto. Now, I am glad that you have seen and you, for some reasons, read our manifesto because you cannot contribute otherwise. Have you read as to what we said about you and your party, Mr. Advani? If you accept what we said about the Congress and that the CPI(M)'s assessment is correct, then, why do you not also read what the CPI(M)'s assessment has been about you? ... (Interruptions) Yes, that is important. So far as our 1996 manifesto ... (Interruptions) I quote:

"Never since the Partition of the country, have the communal forces mounted such a ...... (Interruptions)

SHRI TAPAN SIKDAR (DUMDUM): You are going to the Congress and not coming to us.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : That should be the last day of my life.

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): Perhaps, your party has said that we would be willing to accept the Congress President as the Prime Minister which was never the party's stand ever in these 50 years. It is this that made me to quote all that. The day you say that we would be happy if the BJP Government is there, someone is bound to quote what you have said about me earlier.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Very well. We find you are also educated, if I may say so. You are such an educated man, learned man and generally articulate. I do not know what has happened to you now-a-days. But let me quote from our Manifesto of 1996. It says:

Regarding labour they say "We will make labour, both organised and unorganised, equal and proud partners in production." This is only creating more unemployed people. Are they solving this issue by making all labour redundant in this country? I do not have to say about eradication of unemployment.

About food security and price stability, they say "We will ensure food security for all and create a hunger-free India." They promise education for all and health for all.

As regards empowerment of women, they say "We will legislate for reservation of 33 per cent seats in Parliament." Till today they have not even brought the Bill for discussion. One year has passed.

They have promised to bring the Lok Pal Bill. They say that they are fighting against corruption. Where is your Lok Pal Bill, Mr. Home Minister? There is a clear case of devolution of more financial and administrative powers. What steps have been taken?

You have promised to make the necessary electoral reforms. What reforms have you made? What has happened to State funding? Shri Indrajit Gupta was the Chairman. All parties are represented. We submitted a unanimous report.

What happened to the National Judicial Commission? I say that this is a non-functioning Government. Shri Purno A. Sangma has rightly said that we have a Government of non-governance here. There is also mention of national security. Everything is mentioned here.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : I am reading your manifesto and it is very very uncomfortable for you. It is extremely uncomfortable for you.

Let us see how the administered prices were raised. The price of rice went up from Rs.5.50 to Rs.9.05. Of course, the Minister of Finance is a `Roll-back' Finance Minister and the Government is a `Roll-back' Government. They have rolled back some of the price increases not because of their convictions but because of the pressure from their allies. They have done that for a few votes in Parliament, not on the basis of their commitment to the people of this country. The price of wheat has gone up from Rs.4.50 to Rs.6.50; the price of sugar has gone up from Rs.11.40 to Rs.12; the price of urea has gone up from Rs.183 for 50 kilograms to Rs.200; and the price of cooking gas has gone up from Rs.130 to Rs.146. There is a 19.7 per cent increase in the consumer price index and a shortfall in the Central Plan outlay of Rs.16,705 crore. In one year, they were unable to spend Rs.17,000 crore that they provided in the Budget.

This Government, we are told, is a functioning Government. So far as Pokhran-II and Agni are concerned, they want to take the credit of the achievements of the scientists of this country. But what is the fall out? Our good friend, Shri Jaswant Singh has to crisscross the world. I am sure he is not enamoured of visiting new cities. I am sure, he has visited most of them on diverse pretexts. He may now be on first name terms with Mr. Strobe Talbott but what has happened to this country? Today, they have committed to sign the CTBT. They are just waiting probably for this discussion to be over. I do not know if they can survive unfortunately.

I am proud that Shri Jaswant Singh is the Minister of External Affairs. But let him not talk to any Under Secretary of State any longer. How does it behove him? He should ask Ms. Madeleine Albright to come to him. The sanctions do not suit his namesake or half namesake. Therefore, he has to go and surrender all the prestige and future of this country. They are now friendless.

Of course, we have appreciated the bus ride. I am sure, it was a beautiful and modern bus with no jerk and a very good suspension. We have all applauded that. But today when they exploded Agni, they have been retaliated with two explosions - Ghauri-II and Shaheen. This is wonderful normalisation of relations! I do not know who is the Minister of External Affairs of this country. Shri Jaswant Singh says that he is deciding things. This means, he is better off than the Minister of Defence who does not know when there would be another blast in Pokharan or something else.

We are yet to be told the reasons for writing quietly a secret letter to President Clinton immediately after the Pokhran blasts. They are now abusing China just to keep the Minister of Defence happy. Today, we have to restart the normalisation of relations with China. I would like the Minister of Defence - I hope, he is intervening - to tell us whether he wants China as our friend or not. This is the way this Government is going on.

SHRI TAPAN SIKDAR (DUMDUM): They have forgotten that they supported the Chinese aggression.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : I hope, the hon. Prime Minister, at the stage of replying to the debate, will deal with these issues, will deal with some questions of political morality and political ethics, will talk of the importance of the manifesto and the importance of the so-called National Agenda for Governance and take this country into confidence to say what has been achieved or accomplished by them.

If they are unable to keep their flock together, they cannot pass on the responsibility and try to put the onus on the Opposition to show whether they should remain or not.

This is an amazing exercise that is being done. I submit that hon. Rashtrapatiji was good enough to take a decision, prima facie of course. You showed a list of Members including AIADMK to become the Prime Minister, but they have withdrawn now. So, he asked you to prove the majority on the floor of the House. Now, new recruits may be coming and I am appealing to everybody in this House. Something is more important than the BJP in power. That is the unity and integrity of this country. Secularism is the basic foundation of this country. Let us not deal with that and let us not compromise on that, for the sake of a Government which - I am told and the report is this - is being added by "new friends"; we all know how that friendship is acquired.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, without meaning any disrespect to your party, the TDP never accepted either their manifesto or their National Agenda for Governance; you are not a party to this and they are surviving today because of TDP's good wishes.

Sir, I strongly oppose this motion and I hope that it will be defeated.

SHRI MURASOLI MARAN (MADRAS CENTRAL): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very happy to follow my colleague, comrade Somnathji and his party, but the pity is that they are ignoring us. It is with a deep sense of sorrow and sadness that I rise to participate in this debate.

I am a firm believer that in a federal country of continental proportions like India, a coalition Government is the best unifying factor. So, whenever a coalition Government at the Centre is disturbed or at peril, I am unhappy because we are yet to create a protocol or a code of conduct for running a coalition Government; policies, not whims and fancies, should rule the day. But unfortunately that is not happening. We have seen several coalitions being formed, unformed and several coalition Governments falling down like the house of cards.

We all know the events leading to this debate. I entirely agree with Shri Somnath Chatterjee that if there is a political earthquake, it is the making of the BJP. So, it is unfortunate that the BJP and its leaders placed faith on unreliable elements, elements notorious for unprincipled actions. ... (Interruptions) Shri Somnath Chatterjee has catalogued all those events. In one way, the hon. Prime Minister, the hon. Home Minister and all other leaders of the coalition partners hereafter need not spend sleepless nights because the ghost that haunted them, the ghost that they embraced has been exorcised and has left them for good! But I feel sorry for my Congress friends and other new friends because the ghost has come to this side! So, I am very sorry for that. I do not want to disguise my intense sorrow.

I have been a Member of Parliament - either Member of this House or Member of the other House - for the last 31 years. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI R. MUTHIAH (PERIYAKULAM): It is because of your family rule.

SHRI MURASOLI MARAN : Whatever it is. ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I have not allowed you.

SHRI K.P. MUNUSAMY (KRISHNA GIRI): Who actually is the ghost?... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, this is not good.

wish.... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. I am appealing to all of you. This is not good.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I have not allowed you. Please take your seat.

SHRI MURASOLI MARAN : I came here in 1967.... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: This is not good. Nothing, except the speech of Shri Murasoli Maran, will go on record.

(Interruptions)* MR. SPEAKER: I have been observing the Members. This is not good. The Chair will have to take action against the Members.

SHRI R. MUTHIAH : Yesterday, Shri Baalu had intervened.... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I have been observing you. This is not good. The Chair will have to take action against you. Please take your seats.

SHRI MURASOLI MARAN : I had been sent here by no less a Leader than Dr. Anna in the year 1967. In the last 31 years, I have seen a lot of things. I have been in this House as well as in the other House. At that time, the DMK Party had 25 Members. I am proud to say that Shrimati Indira Gandhi at that time was running a minority Government with the help of those 25 DMK Members and also the CPI Members.... (Interruptions) With the support of DMK Party, Shrimati Indira Gandhi abolished the Privy Purse and 14 banks were nationalised. The people have given power to use it in the national interest.... (Interruptions)

____________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded SHRI V. SATHIAMOORTHY (RAMANATHAPURAM): DMK is the most opportunistic Party. ... (Interruptions)

House in order.

MR. SPEAKER: I am once again appealing to all the AIADMK Members to please take their seats; otherwise, the Chair will take action against them.

SHRI R. MUTHIAH : Sir, yesterday, when I was speaking... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please behave properly.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, please take your seat. You should not disturb the hon. Member. I have allowed him to speak.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed him. Please take your seats.

SHRI MURASOLI MARAN : People give power to politicians so that they may use it for national interest. That is how the DMK exercised its power in a responsible way. We never used to blackmail anybody when we were more than 25 Members here... (Interruptions). Sir, we departed the company of the Congress friends during the emergency. I am very sorry for that. But then what happened was that we, BJP and Marxists became the jailmates. We and BJP shared the Opposition Benches for decades when the Congress was in power.

Sir, I was also in the Treasury Benches. When Shri V.P. Singh was the Prime Minister, I was a Minister here. At that time, both the BJP and the Marxists supported the Government. Then during the United Front Government, I was the Minister and the Left Parties and the Congress helped us. Without their support we could not have existed. Now we have got friends everywhere in the entire House. You want us to choose amongst yourselves. It is a very difficult job for me. Until last week, I was with the so called Third Front which was alive then. I do hope it will be kept alive. I think, Shri Reddy will do that. All of a sudden, there was a melt down and we were left high and dry. So, we have to decide on our own keeping the national and State interests in mind.

Sir, no one need doubt our credentials. In our long political history, we have supported and protected the downtrodden and the minorities whatever be the cost. We reiterate it now and pledge that we will continue to do so because our movement was started in 1916 to uplift the backward classes and minorities. I reiterate our pledge that we will continue to do so, come what may.

Sir, in the meanwhile, I have some questions to ask. Shri Deve Gowda was just now here. Shri Gujral is here. Sir, senior leaders like Shri Moopanar wanted participative involvement of Congress in the United Front Government. He said that, let us move closer with Congress so that the Government can continue and we may have a stable Government at the Centre. Shri Moopanar was all the time insisting that and he was willing to move in that matter. But who prevented it? I am sorry to say that our Left friends objected to it very vehemently. Sir, had we done that at that time, things would have been different and the history would have been different. I am sorry to say that. But let us not cry over the past. It is all part of history.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : The Congress was also objecting.

SHRI MURASOLI MARAN : You never allowed us to try. Shri Indrajit Gupta, you were the Minister with us. The former Prime Minister is here to testify.

Now, what precipitated the crisis? Sir, unreasonable, illegal and unconstitutional demands which cannot be agreed to by any democratic government which respects the rule of law and judiciary had been raised. We all know it. We have got great respect for Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. In fact, the hon. Prime Minister has bent backwards to accommodate the maximum -- I am sorry to say, even at the cost of his image. Shri Atal Bihar Vajpayee is not here. He was very magnanimous. But that was exploited.

Now, I would like to ask what are the details of the new deal? Our Congress friends and other friends should explain to us.

If there is a new deal, they have to explain to us. Are you going to follow a policy of same appeasement? Assuming for a moment that this Government falls, what is the alternative arrangement? Is it going to be Congress-only Government? Then, I will be very happy. Or is it going to be a coalition? Is there a Common Minimum Programme or a National Agenda or in that name, are there any documents being prepared? I would like to know about the common understanding. I want to ask an important question. Are you not foisting an unwanted election on the nation? Please tell us the truth. Please be candid. The country would like to know about it.

Sir, I stand on a different footing. Until yesterday, I was a critic of the Government. So, I cannot talk about or appreciate the achievements of the Government except the Cauvery water dispute for which the credit goes to the Government and the Prime Minister...(Interruptions)...Even now, I do not see eye to eye on several issues. That is a different matter. But I am convinced that the present move by the AIADMK supported by the new-found friends is against the interests of the State and interests of the nation.

We, therefore, support the continuance of the present Government. Sir, we have no other choice...(Interruptions)...We have no choice. We support Atalji and never can we support the mother of corruption...(Interruptions)

(ends) MR. SPEAKER: There is a small observation.

Hon. Members may recall that during the Leaders' meeting held on 15th April, 1999, it was decided that the discussion on the Motion of Confidence would be held on 15th and 16h April, 1999 and the hon. Prime Minister will reply on the 17th April, 1999 followed by voting on the Motion. It is, therefore, essential that all the parties should strictly stick to the time allotted to them.

So, I urge upon the Leaders of Parties to ensure that their Members finish their speeches within the allotted time. There are still 32 Members to speak. I propose that the House may sit late today, if necessary, to exhaust the list of speakers today itself to enable the hon. Prime Minister to reply tomorrow. I hope the House agrees to this.

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ (Ê¨ÉVÉÉÇ{ÉÖ®ú): ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ, ´Éä iÉÉä ªÉÒ±b÷ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : +É{É +Eòä±Éä ½þè ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ * +Eòä±ÉÉ SÉxÉÉ EªÉÉ ¦ÉÉc÷ ¡òÉäc÷äMÉÉ? +ÉVÉ º´Énùä¶ÉÒ VÉÉMÉ®úhÉ ¨ÉÆSÉ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ VÉÉMÉ®úhÉ ¨ÉÆSÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* VÉÉMÉ®úhÉ ¨ÉÆSÉ ¤ÉxÉÉEò®ú ºÉÉ®úä Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ Eò¨{ÉÊxÉªÉÉä Eòä º´ÉÉlÉÇ ½þ±É Eò®úxÉä ¨ÉäÆ VÉÖ]õä ½þÖB ½þèÆ* VÉ¤É {Éä]õèÆ]õ EòÉxÉÚxÉ {ÉÉºÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ, iÉxÉ +É{É¨ÉäÆ Ê½þ¨¨ÉiÉ lÉÒ iÉÉä ºÉnùxÉ ºÉä ÊxÉEò±ÉEò®ú ¤ÉÉ½þ®ú ½þÒ xÉ½þÒ SÉ±Éä VÉÉiÉä ¤ÉÊ±Eò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þVÉÒ +É{É , <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ nùä nùäiÉä iÉÉä ½þ¨É ¨ÉÉxÉ VÉÉiÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ (Ê¨ÉVÉÉÇ{ÉÖ®ú): SÉ±Éä MÉB lÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ºÉ¨ÉªÉ {É½þ±Éä ½þÒ Eò¨É ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ, +É{É <ºÉ iÉ®ú¡ò nùäJÉEò®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É: ½þ¨É +É{ÉEòÉä ½þÒ nùäJÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... 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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) .. +ÉVÉ ¶ÉÖFò´ÉÉ®ú ½þè, +MÉ®ú ´É½þÉÆ xÉ¨ÉÉWÉ xÉ½þÒ {ÉgøxÉä nùÒ MÉ<Ç ½þÉäMÉÒ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ, +É{ÉEòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä Ê±ÉªÉä 28 Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{ÉxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þÖªÉä 50 Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ±Éä Ê±ÉªÉä ½þèÆ* <ºÉÊ±ÉªÉä +É{É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÒÊVÉªÉä* +¦ÉÒ 32 +Énù¨ÉÒ +Éè®ú ½þèÆ ÊVÉxÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ ½þè, ´Éä EòèºÉä JÉi¨É Eò®úäÆMÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ 5-10 Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ JÉi¨É Eò®ú nùÚÆMÉÉ* +¤É ªÉä Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÉÊ¡òªÉÉ +{É®úÉÊvÉªÉÉäÆ EòÉä.... ¸ÉÒ ®úÉVÉ´ÉÒ®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨Éä®úÉ {ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú ½þè* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Under which rule are you raising the point of order? ¸ÉÒ ®úÉVÉ´ÉÒ®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨Éä®úÉ {ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò ªÉ½þÉÆ +ÉVÉ Eòäxpù ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ ¨ÉiÉ {É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ EòÒ VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè, =iiÉ®ú |Énùä¶É Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ* ªÉÊnù =iiÉ®ú |Énùä¶É Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ VÉÉªÉäMÉÉ iÉÉä =ºÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É ªÉ½þÉÆ EòÉèxÉ nùäMÉÉ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no point of order. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ªÉ½þ +¡òºÉÉäºÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè ÊEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ +É{ÉEòä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¨ÉÉÊ¡òªÉÉ +Éè®ú +{É®úÉÊvÉªÉÉäÆ iÉlÉÉ EòÉÊiÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÉä {ÉÚ®úÒ {ÉÚ®úÒ ¨Énùnù Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú =xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¤ÉSÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +MÉ®ú +É{É iÉlªÉ ¨ÉÉÆMÉä +Éè®ú =xÉ iÉlªÉÉäÆ {É®ú +¨É±É Eò®úäÆMÉä iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä iÉlªÉ nùä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þÚÄ* ½þ¨ÉxÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ÊSÉ_Ò Ê±ÉJÉÒ lÉÒ, =ºÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É iÉEò xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ÊSÉ_Ò ¦É±Éä EòèºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ lÉÒ, =ºÉ {ÉjÉ EòÉ =iiÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ Ê¨É±ÉÉ* +MÉ®ú =iiÉ®ú Ê¨É±ÉiÉÉ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ¶ÉÉªÉnù iÉlªÉ nùäxÉä EòÉ |ÉªÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉÉ * ½þÉ±ÉÉÆÊEò ½þ¨É VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÒ ±ÉÉ{É®ú´ÉÉ½þÒ ¤É®úiÉÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ ½þè ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ ¶ÉÉªÉnù BäºÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÒ* +MÉ®ú BäºÉÉ ½þÖ+É iÉÉä +É{É {É®ú =ÆMÉ±ÉÒ =`öäMÉÒ* <ºÉÊ±ÉªÉä ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ ¨ÉÉÊ¡òªÉÉ +Éè®ú Eòi±Éä+É¨É Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ºÉä b÷®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉÉÊ¡òªÉÉ ºÉä SÉÖxÉÉ´É ±Éc÷xÉä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÖZÉä EòÉä<Ç b÷®ú xÉ½þÒÆ* ¨ÉÚIÉä º´ÉªÉÆ EòÒ ½þiªÉÉ EòÉ b÷®ú xÉ½þÒ ½þè {É®ú ¨Éä®úÒ ½þiªÉÉ ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÒ iÉÉä MÉ®úÒ¤ÉÉäÆ EòÒ ½þiªÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÒ, MÉ®úÒ¤É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ +É´ÉÉWÉ Eò¨ÉWÉÉä®ú ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÒ* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ VÉÉxÉ-¤ÉÚZÉEò®ú Ênù±É ºÉä ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, MÉÖººÉä ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, +É®úÉä{É xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉMÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* +ÉVÉ ºÉÒ¤ÉÒ+É<Ç Eòä EòÖUô ±ÉÉäMÉ +{É®úÉÊvÉªÉÉä,½þiªÉÉ®úÉä B´ÉÆ ¨ÉÉÊ¡òªÉÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¨Énùnù Eò®úä ®ú½þä ½þè iÉlÉÉ =x½þä ¤ÉSÉÉxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þè +Éè®ú ÊxÉnùÉäÇ¹É ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ EòÉä VÉä±É ¦ÉäVÉ ®ú½þä ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ SÉÖxÉÉèiÉÒ nùäiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò EòÉä<Ç b÷ÉìEªÉÚ¨ÉäÆ]º |É¨ÉÉÊhÉiÉ Eò®úEòä ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÉä ÊEò ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ºÉÒvÉÉ +É®úÉä{É EòÉèxÉ ºÉÉ ½þè* BEò ¨ÉÊ½þ±ÉÉ ®úÉ¤Éc÷Ò nùä´ÉÒ ¨ÉÖJªÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ¤ÉxÉÒ iÉÉä ºÉÒ¤ÉÒ+É<Ç xÉä 11 PÉÆ]õä =xÉEòÉä PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÆnù Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ? ºÉÆÊ´ÉvÉÉxÉ uÉ®úÉ SÉÖxÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç ¨ÉÖJªÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ¨ÉÊ½þ±ÉÉ EòÉä ºÉÒ¤ÉÒ+É<Ç xÉä 11 PÉÆ]õä PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÆnù ®úJÉÉ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ºÉÒ¤ÉÒ+É<Ç Eòä EòÖUô ±ÉÉäMÉ ¨ÉÉÊ¡òªÉÉ Eòä MÉÖhb÷ÉäÆ +Éè®ú EòÉÊiÉ±ÉÉä EòÒ ¨Énùnù Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +ÉVÉ nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ EòÉ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷É +{É®úÉvÉ EòÉ +bb÷É Ênù±±ÉÒ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉÉì BÆb÷ +Éìb÷Ç®ú Eòä nùäJÉ-®úäJÉ EòÒ ÊVÉ¨¨ÉänùÉ®úÒ MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ½þè* nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ Eòä +ÉÆEòc÷ä nùäJÉäÆ iÉÉä ºÉ¤ÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ +{É®úÉvÉÒ Ênù±±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ, ºÉ¤ÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ +{É®úÉvÉ Ênù±±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ½þ¨É SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÒ Ê´ÉnùÉ<Ç ½þÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Next speaker. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ½þ¨É nùºÉ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®úäÆMÉä* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä ¤É®ú¤ÉÉnù Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ* {ÉÚ®úÒ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÒ ={ÉäIÉÉ ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ EòÒ ¤ÉÊ±Eò =xÉEòÉ +{É¨ÉÉxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* ½þ¨É SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò iÉä±ÉÖMÉÚ SÉ±Éä, iÉÊ¨É±É SÉ±Éä, ¨É±ÉªÉÉ±É¨É SÉ±Éä, EòxxÉb÷ SÉ±Éä,¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉ SÉ±Éä º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê¨ÉjÉ nùÊIÉhÉ Eòä ½þèÆ, ½þ¨É SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò iÉÊ¨É±É SÉ±Éä ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ +ÆOÉäWÉÒ SÉ±ÉiÉÒ ½þè* ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ªÉ½þ +ÆOÉäVÉÉäÆ EòÒ ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ ½þè* +É{É ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ]õÒ´ÉÒ {É®ú Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ =ºÉºÉä +É{ÉxÉä ªÉ½þ ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* ½þ¨É VÉÉä¶ÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ iÉÉ®úÒ¡ò Eò®úäÆMÉä EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ VÉxÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä +Ænù®ú ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ ¶ÉÖ¦ÉÊSÉxiÉEò +MÉ®ú EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉSÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä +Eòä±Éä VÉÉä¶ÉÒ VÉÒ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú lÉÉäc÷É ´ÉÒ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ½þèÆ* ¤ÉÉEòÒ ºÉÉ®úä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +ÆOÉäWÉÉäÆ EòÒ ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ nùÒ SÉÉ½þä <vÉ®ú Eòä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä EòÉÆOÉäºÉÒ Ê¨ÉjÉ ½þÉä ªÉÉ ºÉiiÉÉ {ÉIÉ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÉäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : VÉÉVÉÇ ºÉÉ½þ¤É ¦ÉÒ +ÆOÉäWÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : VÉÉVÉÇ ºÉÉ½þ¤É iÉÉä ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ´ÉÉnùÒ ½þèÆ, ´É½þ iÉÉä Ê½þxnùÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ, +É{É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ]õÒ´ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ Eòä Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ ÊxÉEò±Éä ÊEò +MÉ®ú xªÉÚWÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ ºÉÖxÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ºÉSSÉÉ<Ç ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨ÉäÆ +{ÉxÉä ±Éc÷Eòä-±Éc÷ÊEòªÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ xªÉÚWÉ ºÉÖxÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ¶É¨ÉÇ +ÉiÉÒ ½þè, <iÉxÉä MÉÆnùä ´É +¶±ÉÒ±ÉÊ´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ ÊnùJÉÉªÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ªÉä ]õÒ ´ÉÒ Eòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ ºÉ¦ªÉiÉÉ +Éè®ú ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ EòÉ |ÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ º´Énùä¶ÉÒ VÉÉMÉ®úhÉ ¨ÉÆSÉ EòÒ* {ÉÊ®ú´ÉÉ®ú Eòä ºÉ¦ÉÒ ±ÉÉäMÉ ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ JÉ¤É®úäÆ ºÉÖxÉäÆ iÉÉä ¶É¨ÉÇ +ÉiÉÒ ½þè <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ Eòä Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ ¤ÉÒSÉ-¤ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ ÊnùJÉÉªÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* +{ÉxÉä ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÒ +{ÉäIÉÉ EòÒ +Éè®ú +ÆOÉäWÉÒ EòÉä ¤ÉgøÉ´ÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ * ... 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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ Ê½þxnùÒ `öÒEò ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä iÉÉä ¨Énùnù Eò®úxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä, VÉÉä ÊEò Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É ±ÉÉªÉä ½þèÆ, iÞÉhÉ¨ÉÚ±É EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÒ +Éä®ú ºÉä =ºÉEòÉ ½þÉ]õÇ±ÉÒ ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É VÉÒ EòÒ ¦ÉÒ +É¦ÉÉ®úÒ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ xÉä VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ, ¶ÉÖ°ü ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ Eò½þÒ +Éè®ú +ÆiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ Eò½þÒ ÊEò ¸ÉÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä Ê´ÉnùÉ<Ç ±ÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* Eòä´É±É ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ½þÒ xÉä xÉ½þÒÆ, ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.B¨É.. xÉä ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÒ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ +Éè®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ xÉä ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÒ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ ¦É®ú BEò ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, +É{ÉEòä +Ænù®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please stop this running commentary.

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : I thank you very much for your running commentary.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You welcome it! EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : +É{ÉEòÉ ¶ÉÖÊFòªÉÉ* ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ¨Éè¨¤É®ú EòÒ ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB +É¦ÉÉ®úÒ ½þÚÆ* nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ ªÉ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þiÉÒ ½þè, EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þiÉÒ ½þè? nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þiÉÒ ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉ +{ÉÉäWÉÒ¶ÉxÉ EòÉ BEò {ÉÉìÆ<]õ |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É ½þè ÊEò ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä ½þ]õÉ+Éä ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ ¦ÉÒ BEò {ÉÉìÆ<]õ |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É ½þè ÊEò ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ¤ÉSÉÉ+Éä* <ºÉÒ {É®ú BEò ¶Éä®ú ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ lÉÉäc÷É ¶ÉÉªÉ®úÒ {ÉºÉÆnù Eò®úiÉÒ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉÖq<Ç ±ÉÉJÉ ¤ÉÖ®úÉ SÉÉ½þä iÉÉä EªÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* ´É½þÒ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè VÉÉä ¨ÉÆVÉÚ®úä JÉÖnùÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆxÉä +{ÉÉäWÉÒ¶ÉxÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉÖxÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ SÉ]õVÉÒÇ xÉä ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ iÉÉä +Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ EòÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÉªÉä, ªÉ½þ iÉÉä MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉèÆ]õ ±ÉÉ<Ç ½þè Ê¡ò®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä >ð{É®ú EªÉÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÉªÉä ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ EòÉä ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä VÉÉEò®ú Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ EòÉä +É{É EòÉÆ¡òÒb÷èÆºÉ ´ÉÉä]õ ±ÉäxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉä* ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ `öÒEò ½þè ªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè +Éè®ú +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä Eò½þxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ xÉä +{ÉÉäWÉÒ¶ÉxÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉä Ê®úºÉ{ÉèE]õ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* VÉ¤É ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ xÉä +É{ÉEòÉä Ê®úºÉ{ÉèE]õ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉºÉÖnùä´É +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ (¤ÉÉÆEòÖ®úÉ) : ½þ¨ÉxÉä iÉÉä +xÉÖ®úÉävÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : `öÒEò ½þè ÊEò +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +xÉÖ®úÉävÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ iÉÉä ½þè xÉ* +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä Ê®úEò´Éèº]õ EòÒ ÊVÉºÉä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ xÉä ¨ÉÉxÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉºÉÖnùä´É +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ : ½þ¨ÉxÉä =x½þäÆ ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : `öÒEò ½þè* +É{ÉxÉä +xÉÖ®úÉävÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ÊVÉºÉä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ xÉä ¨ÉÉxÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ* <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ EòÉä ¦ÉÒ vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù * <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù ½þè ÊVÉx½þÉäÆxÉä BEò ¦ÉÒ ÊnùxÉ xÉ¹]õ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ* <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ +ÉvÉä PÉÆ]õä Eòä +Ænù®ú Êb÷ºÉÒVÉxÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉEòÉä ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ +Éì¡ò EòÉÆ¡òÒb÷èÆºÉ ±ÉÉxÉÉ ½þè* =x½þÉäÆxÉä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ EòÉä <VVÉiÉ nùÒ ½þè* =x½þÉäxÉä ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ EòÉ ºÉ¨¨ÉÉxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú BEò SÉè±ÉäÆVÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ ÊEò {É½þ±Éä ½þÒ ÊnùxÉ ½þ¨É ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ ¨ÉiÉ ±ÉÉªÉäÆMÉä* +ÉVÉ nùÖJÉ ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +MÉ®ú ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ xÉ ½þÉäiÉä, ½þ®ú {ÉÉ]õÒÇ <ºÉ <ÆºÉÉxÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þ ºÉEòiÉÒ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò±É ºÉä VÉÉä ºÉÖxÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòä +xÉÖºÉÉ®ú ÊEòºÉÒ xÉä ¦ÉÒ =xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ ½þè* <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù nùäiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ´É½þ <ºÉÊ±ÉB xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ EªÉÉäÆÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä ÊVÉÆnùMÉÒ ¦É®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä Ê±ÉB, <ºÉ vÉ®úiÉÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ* ÊVÉÆnùMÉÒ ¦É®ú <ºÉ Ê¨É^Ò Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ÊVÉÆnùMÉÒ ¦É®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä +{ÉÉäWÉÒ¶ÉxÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ±ÉÒb÷®ú EòÉ ¦ÉÒ ®úÉä±É ÊxÉ¦ÉÉªÉÉ iÉ¤É ¦ÉÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ xÉä =x½þäÆ ÊVÉxÉä´ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉäVÉÉ lÉÉ* `Atal Bihari Vajpayee cannot do anything wrong.' A successful man is one who can lay the foundation with the bricks that others may throw at him. +ÉVÉ ºÉ¤É ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò <xÉEòÉ Ê´ÉnùÉ<Ç ºÉ¨ÉÉ®úÉä½þ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ iÉÉä ºÉÉäSÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò Ê´ÉnùÉ<Ç ºÉ¨ÉÉ®úÉä½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ÊnùxÉ ¤ÉiÉÉªÉäMÉÉ ÊEò ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ Eòä xÉäiÞÉi´É ¨ÉäÆ nùä¶É SÉ±ÉäMÉÉ +Éè®ú nùä¶É SÉ±ÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ÊºÉ¡òÇ BEò ÊnùxÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB Eò±ÉEòiiÉÉ MÉ<Ç lÉÒ iÉÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä {ÉÚUôÉ, +É{É Eò±ÉEòiiÉÉ EªÉÉäÆ VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ xÉªÉÉ ºÉÉ±É ½þè <ºÉÊ±ÉB BEò ÊnùxÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þÚÆ* ´Éä Eò½þxÉä ±ÉMÉä, EªÉÉ ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ ºÉä ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Ê´Énùc÷É Eò®úxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ? ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ÊºÉ¡òÇ BEò ÊnùxÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þÚÆ* ´Éä Eò½þxÉä ±ÉMÉä, ½þ¨É SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +¦ÉÒ ®ú½þä* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ½þ¨ÉxÉä Eònù¨É xÉ½þÒÆ =`öÉªÉÉ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +ÉVÉ VÉÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ Ê¨É±É-VÉÖ±ÉEò®ú +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ VÉÒ EòÉä ½þ]õÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÉ¨É Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä MÉ±ÉiÉ Eònù¨É =`öÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ PÉ®úÉxÉä EòÒ ½þÚÆ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ +É<Çb÷ÒªÉÉä±ÉÉìVÉÒ ¦ÉÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÒ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ +¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Yes, I am proud to say that I was a person belonging to Congress and you are not! ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¡òäºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆxÉä +É{ÉEòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò iÉÉä EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Do not shout like this. VÉ¤É ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ |ÉvÉÉxÉ¨ÉÆjÉÒ lÉä iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉEòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÖxÉxÉÉ {Éc÷É lÉÉ - `MÉ±ÉÒ-MÉ±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ¶ÉÉä®ú ½þè,®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ SÉÉä®ú ½þè*' ÊEòºÉxÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ lÉÉ? ±ÉèÊ¡]õº]õ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ xÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú +ÉVÉ nùÉäºiÉ ½þÉä MÉB* ¨ÉèÆ VÉ¤É ÊiÉ®úÆMÉÉ ZÉÆb÷É ±ÉäEò®ú SÉ±ÉiÉÒ lÉÒ iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉäÆ <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ÊEòiÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉ®ú ¨ÉÉ®úÉ, ÊEòiÉxÉä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ JÉÚxÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ÊEòªÉÉ* +ÉVÉ +É{É ÊEòºÉEòÒ ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ? <xÉEòÒ ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ ¨ÉäÆ, ÊVÉxÉEòä ½þÉlÉ JÉÚxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ®úÆMÉä ½þÖB ½þèÆ* <x½þÉäÆxÉä ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ <ÆÊnù®úÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ EòÉä EªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ, <x½þÉäÆxÉä ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ <ÆÊnù®úÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ EòÉä * Eò½þÉ lÉÉ..* Eò½þÉ lÉÉ* +ÉVÉ +É{É <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ Ê¨É±ÉEò®ú EòÉ¨É Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* `öÒEò ½þè, Eò¦ÉÒ-Eò¦ÉÒ Ê¨É±É-VÉÖ±ÉEò®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* Do not forget that people like you only expelled me from that party. I had the guts and we have the blessings of the people of Bengal; that is why we have founded our party. We are not beggars and we are not hungry people. They expelled me because I was opposing the CPM. We can sacrifice ourselves; but we cannot sacrifice our own workers, we cannot sacrifice our State, we cannot sacrifice our country and we cannot sacrifice common people of this country. That is our stand. It is also a political compulsion, please realise that. ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉSÉ ½þè ÊEò {É½þ±Éä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ÊnùEEòiÉ lÉÒ, BEò xÉ<Ç ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +É<Ç lÉÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉ¤É 3-4 ¨É½þÒxÉä ºÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä EòÉ¨É Eò®úxÉÉ ¶ÉÖ¯û ÊEòªÉÉ, VÉ¤É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ <EòÉäxÉÉèÊ¨ÉEò ÊºÉSÉÖ´Éä¶ÉxÉ, |ÉÉ<ºÉ ®úÉ<WÉ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ {ÉÊ®úÊºlÉÊiÉ lÉÉäc÷Ò ¤Énù±ÉÒ, iÉ¤É ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ]õÉì{É±É Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB BEò MÉä¨É {±ÉÉxÉ iÉèªÉÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ* ´É½þ MÉä¨É {±ÉÉxÉ +ÉVÉ iÉèªÉÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É, ±ÉÉº]õ xÉ´É¨¤É®ú ¨É½þÒxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖ+É lÉÉ ÊVÉºÉEòÉ ¡òÉì±ÉÉä-+{É +ÉVÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ªÉÊnù ÊEòºÉÒ nùä¶É EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ½þ®ú ºÉÉ±É ÊMÉ®úÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä nùä¶É EòÒ <EòÉäxÉÉèÊ¨ÉEò ÊºlÉÊiÉ EªÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, EªÉÉ Eò¦ÉÒ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉxÉä ºÉÉäSÉÉ ½þè? ªÉÊnù <EòÉäxÉÉèÊ¨ÉEò ÊºÉSÉÖ´Éä¶ÉxÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè iÉÉä nùä¶É EòÒ ÊºÉSÉÖ´Éä¶ÉxÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* EªÉÉ +É{ÉEòÉä ½þ®ú ºÉÉ±É <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ ½þè?

Our country cannot afford to spend money on elections every year. It is just like election festival. It is just like a festival every year.

___________________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair. ½þ®ú ºÉÉ±É BäºÉä ½þÒ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ]õÉì{É±É Eò®úxÉä Eòä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨ÉxÉä Ê®ú´ÉÉä±]õ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ* EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä {ÉSÉÉºÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò +É{É <xÉÊb÷Ê´ÉVÉÖ+±É <Æ]õ®úº]õ Eòä Ê±ÉB BäºÉÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉB* iÉ¤É iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÒ ¨Éè¨¤É®ú lÉÒ* We were bound to vote for Congress. ½þ¨ÉxÉä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ´ÉÉä]õ ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Ênù±É ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉEòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ´ÉÉxÉÇ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ* MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É VÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{ÉEòÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB lÉÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É EòÉä<Ç ±ÉÒb÷®ú xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÖxÉ ºÉEòä* ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ, +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè, ½þ¨É ºÉÖxÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* What is your proposal? What is your plan of action? What is your game plan? Nothing is spelt out, but you want to lead the country and you want to run this House. ªÉÊnù ½þ¨É ]ÅäxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò c÷É<Ç´É®ú EòÒ VÉ°ü®úiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, VÉ½þÉVÉ ¨ÉäÆ BEò Eòè{]õxÉ ®ú½þiÉÉ ½þè, JÉä±É-EòÚnù Eòä ¨ÉènùÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ]õÒ¨É ¨ÉäÆ Eòè{]õxÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ You are captainless; you do not have a captain.

Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee is our captain but they do not have any captain. Their game-plan is only to topple this Government and go for elections tomorrow. +MÉ®ú ªÉ½þ +É{ÉEòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ ½þè iÉÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉSÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{É ºÉÉäSÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò +MÉ®ú ½þ¨É +¦ÉÒ <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ SÉ±Éä VÉÉªÉäÆ iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ÊºÉÆMÉ±É ±ÉÉ®úVÉèº]õ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ¤ÉxÉ VÉÉªÉäMÉÒ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè, EªÉÉäÆÊEò +¦ÉÒ nùä¶É EòÉ ]ÅäÆb÷ lÉÉäc÷É +±ÉMÉ ½þè* ®úÒVÉxÉ±É {ÉÉ]õÒÇWÉ ¦ÉÒ +ÉVÉ BEò <¨{ÉÉä]õÇäÆ]õ ®úÉä±É {±Éä Eò®úiÉÒ ½þèÆ, <ºÉÊ±ÉB EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ xÉä¶ÉxÉ±É {ÉÉ]õÒÇ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ ¤ÉxÉÉªÉä iÉÉä =ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ®úÒVÉxÉ±É {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉ Ê®ú¶iÉÉ ½þÉäxÉä ºÉä ½þÒ Eòäxpù ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þè, SÉÉ½þä ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É VÉÒ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þÉä, SÉÉ½þä ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þÉä, SÉÉ½þä ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÉäÆ, SÉÉ½þä iÉä±ÉMÉÚnùä¶É¨É ½þÉä, SÉÉ½þä ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þÉä, SÉÉ½þä ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.b÷Ò. ½þÉä, SÉÉ½þä +EòÉ±ÉÒ ½þÉäÆ, SÉÉ½þä SÉÉè]õÉ±ÉÉ VÉÒ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þÉä, SÉÉ½þä b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. ½þÉä, VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þÉä* ¤É½þÖVÉxÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ, Ê¶É´É ºÉäxÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ ½þÉä, ºÉ¤É ½þÉäÆ* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ iÉÉä ®úÉ¹]ÅÒªÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þè, +É{ÉEòÒ ±ÉÉäEò±É {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ (Eò±ÉEòiiÉÉ nùÊIÉhÉ) : ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¦ÉÒ +Éì±É <ÆÊb÷ªÉÉ ®úÊVÉº]õb÷Ç {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ±ÉÉäEò±É {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þè, <ºÉÊ±ÉB ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ +¦ÉÒ PÉÉä]õÉ±Éä ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ MÉªÉä* ªÉ½þ iÉÉä ¨Éä½þ®ú¤ÉÉxÉÒ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ±ÉÉäEò±É +Éè®ú xÉä¶ÉxÉ±É Eòä SÉEEò®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉiÉ ®úÊ½þªÉä, +É{É +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÊ®úªÉä* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ½þ¨ÉEòÉä EòÖUô ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä ºÉä ½þ¨ÉEòÉä Ê®ú{±ÉÉ<Ç nùäxÉÉ {Éc÷iÉÉ ½þè* =xÉEòä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä ºÉä ¨ÉèÆ EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÚÆMÉÒ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ]õEò®úÉBÆMÉä iÉÉä ½þ¨É ¦ÉÒ ]õEò®úÉBÆMÉä* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ºÉ¤É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ±ÉÉäMÉ ´ÉÉä]õ nùäEò®ú +É{ÉEòÉä xÉäiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉÉªÉä ½þÖB ½þèÆ* ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ Ê´ÉlÉc÷É Eò®ú ±ÉäÆMÉä iÉÉä Ê¡ò®ú +É{É VÉÒ®úÉä ¤ÉxÉ VÉÉ+ÉäMÉÒ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : +É{ÉEòä Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä <±ÉÉEòä ¨ÉäÆ ®ú½þiÉä ½þè* Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ±ÉÉäMÉ VÉÉä ´É½þÉÆ ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÉä ¨ÉèÆ Ênù±É ºÉä {ÉºÉxnù Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, +É{ÉEòÉä =ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ¨Éä®úÉ ¶ÉÖÊFòªÉÉ +nùÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* Lalu JI, please concentrate in Bihar and not in Delhi.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please address the Chair. EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ¨ÉèÆ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ +Éè®ú ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É VÉÒ EòÒ <VVÉiÉ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¤ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉÉäÊ±ÉÊ]õEò±É Êb÷¡ò®úäÆºÉ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÒ <VVÉiÉ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ºÉÒÊxÉªÉ®ú ±ÉÒb÷ºÉÇ ½þèÆ* ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ, ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ-¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉäÆ BäºÉä MÉÖººÉÉ ½þÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +¤É ½þ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ªÉ½þ ¤É½þÖiÉ +SUôÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉSÉ ½þè, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ {ÉÊ®úÊºlÉÊiÉ +É{É nùäÊJÉªÉä, VÉ¤É MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ º]õä¤É±É ½þÉä VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè iÉÉä BEò MÉä¨É{±ÉÉxÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ nùä¶É Eòä +xnù®ú EòÉ +Énù¨ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ½þè, nùä¶É Eòä ¤ÉÉ½þ®ú EòÉ +Énù¨ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ½þè, Ê¨É±ÉVÉÖ±ÉEò®ú <EòÉäxÉÉäÊ¨ÉEò <xº]õäÊ¤ÉÊ±É]õÒ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB BäºÉÒ SÉÒVÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* +É{É nùäÊJÉªÉä, VÉ¤É ºÉä <xº]õäÊ¤ÉÊ±É]õÒ ¶ÉÖ°ü ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, ¶ÉäªÉ®ú ¨ÉÉEòÇä]õ Fòè¶É ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¶ÉäªÉ®ú ¨ÉÉEòÇä]õ EòÒ ÊºÉSÉÖB¶ÉxÉ EªÉÉ ½þè, <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¡òÉ<xÉäÆºÉ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* <ÆÊb÷ªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ VÉx¨É ½þÖ+É ½þè, ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ MÉÉè®ú´É ºÉä Eò½þ ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* +¦ÉÒ xªÉÚÊE±ÉªÉ®ú ´Éè{ÉÆºÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ +ÊMxÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉ<ÆÊ]õº]õ xÉä VÉÉä EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É Eòä VÉ´ÉÉxÉÉäÆ xÉä VÉÉä EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ =ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB =xÉEòä +É¦ÉÉ®úÒ ½þÚÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¦ÉÒ ºÉSÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉ {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¡òÉ<xÉäÆÊ¶ÉªÉ±É <¨É®úVÉäÆºÉÒ Êb÷E±ÉäªÉ®ú ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ VÉMÉ½þ {É®ú, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ +ÉÊlÉÇEò {ÉÊ®úÊºlÉÊiÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ½þÉäxÉä Eòä xÉÉiÉä +ÉVÉ iÉEò <ÆÊb÷ªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¡òÉ<xÉäÆÊ¶ÉªÉ±É <¨É®úVÉäÆºÉÒ Êb÷E±ÉäªÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè* <ºÉ ´ÉÉºiÉä ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ EòÉä<Ç vªÉÉxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ* JÉÉ±ÉÒ {ÉÉäÊ±ÉÊ]õEºÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉÉÆSÉ ´É¹ÉÇ Eòä Ê±ÉB {ÉÊ¤±ÉEò EòÉ ¨ÉäxÉb÷ä]õ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ªÉ½þ ¨ÉäxÉb÷ä]õ iÉÉä BµÉÒ <ÇªÉ®ú Eòä Ê±ÉB ½þè, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ iÉÉä EòÉÆº]õÒ]ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ SÉäÆVÉ ½þÉä VÉÉªÉäMÉÉ, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ iÉÉä <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ |ÉÉäºÉäºÉ SÉäÆVÉ ½þÉä VÉÉªÉäMÉÉ* VÉÉä ÊºlÉÊiÉ +ÉVÉ nùä¶É EòÒ ¤ÉxÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè, <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB +ÉVÉ VÉÉä ±Éc÷É<Ç ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, +ÉVÉ VÉÉä ±Éc÷É<Ç ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ ½þ]õÉxÉä EòÒ ±Éc÷É<Ç ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, +ÉVÉ VÉÉä ±Éc÷É<Ç ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, nùä¶É EòÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ Eòä Ê½þiÉ EòÒ ±Éc÷É<Ç ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* +ÉVÉ ºÉÉ¨|ÉnùÉÊªÉEò ¶ÉÊEiÉªÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ {ÉÉÊ]õÇªÉÉÆ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉÖxÉÉ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.B¨É. ±ÉÒb÷®ú xÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú Eò½þÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ÊVÉÆnùMÉÒ SÉ±ÉÒ VÉÉªÉäMÉÒ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú Fòäb÷äÆÊ¶ÉªÉ±É ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ nùÚÆMÉÉ* ´Éä ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ =xÉºÉä {ÉÚUôiÉÒ* In that election we were not the BJP allies but we had seat arrangement with them and that is why we respect the BJP mandate. It is now mandatory for us to support the Government. ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉä* ¨ÉèÆ VÉ¤É ¨Éä®úÒ EòÉÆº]õÒ]´ÉäÆºÉÒ Eòä BEò ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É BÊ®úªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ MÉ<Ç iÉÉä ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.B¨É. +Éè®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ xÉä Ê¨É±ÉEò®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä ´É½þÉÆ PÉÖºÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ +Éè®ú EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* ¤ÉÉä±Éä ÊEò ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ Eò¨ªÉÖxÉ±É ½þè, ´É½þ VÉÉªÉäMÉÒ iÉÉä iÉÖ¨½þÉ®úÉ EòÖ®úÉxÉ VÉ±ÉÉ nùäMÉÒ* +É{É <ºÉ {É®ú Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ? ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ Eò¨ªÉÖxÉ±É ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, VÉÉä ºÉèEòÖ±ÉÊ®úV¨É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* <xÉºÉä {ÉÚÊUôªÉä, ½þ¨ÉEòÉä VÉÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ¦ÉÒ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ ´ÉÉä]õÉäÆ ºÉä ½þ¨É VÉÒiÉä +Éè®ú +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú {ÉÉªÉä* +É{É EòÖUô Eò®ú ¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉÉBÆMÉä* +É{É ºÉÉäÊSÉªÉä, VÉ¤É SÉÖxÉÉ´É +ÉiÉä ½þèÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉºÉÖnùä´É +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ (¤ÉÉÆEòÖ®úÉ) : ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ +ºÉä¨¤É±ÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ<Ç <±ÉèE¶ÉÆºÉ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É?

17.00 hrs. EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÆºÉnùÒªÉ IÉäjÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨É VÉÒiÉä ½þèÆ, iÞÉhÉ¨ÉÚ±É EòÉ JÉÉiÉÉ JÉÖ±É MÉªÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú +ÉMÉÉ¨ÉÒ SÉÖxÉÉ´É ¨ÉäÆ +É{É ´É½þÉÆ VÉÒ®úÉä ½þÉä VÉÉ+ÉäMÉä* ªÉ½þÉÆ º´Énùä¶ÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè* +MÉ®ú º´Énùä¶ÉÒ EòÒ <iÉxÉÒ ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ ®úJÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò EªÉÉ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ º´Énùä¶ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ? ¨ÉèÆ iÉÉä º´Énùä¶ÉÒ xÉäiÉÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB VÉÉä nùä¶É Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÉ¨É Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB JÉc÷Ò ½þÖ<Ç ½þÚÆ, ÊEòºÉÒ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB xÉ½þÒÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ +Éè®ú {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ Eòä ºÉ¨¤ÉxvÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè +Éè®ú Eò<Ç ±ÉÉäMÉ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ-SÉÒxÉ Eòä uÉ®ú ¦ÉÒ JÉÉä±ÉÉä* +ÉVÉÉnùÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù 50 ºÉÉ±É iÉEò +É{ÉxÉä ®úÉVÉ ÊEòªÉÉ +Éè®ú +É{É =ºÉEòÒ iÉÖ±ÉxÉÉ <xÉEòä BEò ºÉÉ±É Eòä ®úÉVÉ ºÉä Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä EªÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä <xÉ 50 ºÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* +É{É ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä {ÉÉÆSÉ ºÉÉ±É iÉEò ®úÉVÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þEò xÉ½þÒÆ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä +Éè®ú =xÉEòÉä +¦ÉÒ ½þ]õÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* Let him work for five years. Nobody should disturb him. He is having so many ideas. He has so much experience. The Indo-Pakistan bus service is his baby. It is not our baby. The credit should go to him. All the things like Free Trade between India and Sri Lanka, Indo-Bangladesh bus service, have started. Why do you not help him? Let us join together and let us join hands in the constructive work for this country. ´É½þ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ, JÉÉ±ÉÒ ºÉÉäSÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò EòÉèxÉ ºÉÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +ÉBMÉÒ, ÊEòiÉxÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉlÉ ½þèÆ, SÉÉè]õÉ±ÉÉ VÉÒ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ´ÉÉä]õ xÉ½þÒÆ nùäMÉÒ, VÉªÉ±ÉÊ±ÉiÉÉ VÉÒ <vÉ®ú ºÉä SÉ±ÉÒ MÉ<ÇÆ, ºÉ¨ÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ]õÚ]õ MÉ<Ç, ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ]õÚ]õ MÉ<Ç, ªÉ½þ =ÊSÉiÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* Every party has its own compulsions and every political party has its own ideology. They have their own constitution and their own symbols. You cannot compare one political party with the other political party. But I am happy to say that Samata Party is not divided. They are together; the BJD is together, the Akalis are together; we are together; and our other friends are also together.. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : +É{É ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉB* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ]õÖMÉènù®ú ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ®úÊ´Éxpù xÉÉlÉ ]õèMÉÉä®ú EòÒ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÚÆMÉÒ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : +ÆOÉäVÉÒ ´ÉÉ±Éä BEò |ÉÊiÉ¶ÉiÉ ½þèÆ VÉÉä ºÉÖxÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉB ÊVÉºÉºÉä Eò¨É ºÉä Eò¨É ´É½þÉÆ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ iÉÉä ºÉÖxÉäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ EòÉèxÉ ½þè,* (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ___________________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Shri Shiv Shankar, do you agree with this?... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Vaiko, let him speak.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO :What ...* is he talking? They want to divide the country in the name of language... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am on my legs. You please sit down.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am expunging those words.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, he should withdraw those words... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chaubey, I have already given my ruling. Do not waste the time of the House. Let her speak now. Do not interrupt please. EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ Eòä +ÉvÉÉ®ú {É®ú EòÆ]ÅÒ EòÉä Êb÷´ÉÉ<b÷ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ nùiiÉÉ ¨ÉäPÉä (´ÉvÉÉÇ) : ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ VÉÒ xÉä VÉÉä Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ ½þè, ´É½þ ¤ÉiÉÉBÆ ÊEò ´É½þ EòÉèxÉ ½þè?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉÖxÉÚÆMÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I said that I would expunge all such words.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, I have already said that I will expunge all such indecent words. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ½þ¨É +É{ÉEòÉ +Énù®ú Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* +É{ÉxÉä °üÊ±ÉÆMÉ nùÒ, ½þ¨É =ºÉä ¨ÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä +¡òºÉÉäºÉ ½þè* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ: EªÉÉäÆ?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I said that I will expunge not only your words but all such indecent words which are spoken here. It applies to anybody and whichever side it may be.

______________________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ºÉÒÊxÉªÉ®ú ±ÉÒb÷®ú ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÒ <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB +É¦ÉÉ®úÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤ÉÉÆM±ÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB Eò½þÉ ½þè* =xÉEòä ®úèº{ÉäE]õ Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ VÉ°ü®ú Eò½þÚÆMÉÒ ÊEò Eò±É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ xÉªÉÉ ºÉÉ±É lÉÉ* =ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ +É{É ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä ¤ÉvÉÉ<Ç nùäiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ Eòä >ð{É®ú EòÆ]ÅÒ EòÉä Êb÷´ÉÉ<b÷ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ Eò¦ÉÒ =nùÇÚ, Eò¦ÉÒ ¨É®úÉ`öÒ, Eò¦ÉÒ {ÉÆVÉÉ¤ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉèEªÉÖ±ÉÊ®úV¨É EòÒ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷Ò {É®ú¨{É®úÉ ½þè, <ºÉÒÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉÉäVÉÒ¶ÉxÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä nùÉäºiÉ EòÉä ¦ÉÒ Ê®úE´Éäº]õ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +MÉ®ú ±Éc÷xÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ±Éc÷xÉÉ ½þè* +MÉ®ú ±Éc÷xÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä nùä¶É Eòä ]õÖEòc÷ä Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ±Éc÷xÉÉ ½þè, Eò®ú{¶ÉxÉ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ±Éc÷xÉÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò BE¶ÉxÉ ±ÉäxÉÉ VÉ°ü®úÒ ½þè, <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ºÉä ¦ÉÒ Ê®úE´Éäº]õ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ±ÉÉäEò{ÉÉ±É Ê¤É±É VÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ´ÉÉä½þ®úÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ EòÒ Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ½þè, VÉÉä Ê¤É±É ½þè, =ºÉ {É®ú VÉ±nùÒ ºÉä VÉ±nùÒ ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ Êb÷ºÉEò¶ÉxÉ EòÒÊVÉB* Due to the absence of electoral reforms for funding specially political parties for contesting elections, many small parties are unable to contest elections. <±ÉèE]ÅÉä®ú±É Ê®ú¡òÉ¨ÉÇºÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉä ºÉä UôÉä]õÒ-UôÉä]õÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇVÉ <±ÉäE¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒÆ* ¤Éc÷Ò-¤Éc÷Ò {ÉÉ]õÒÇVÉ Eòä {ÉÉºÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ¯û{ÉªÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* ´Éä iÉÉä ½þ®ú ¨É½þÒxÉä, ½þ®ú ÊnùxÉ <±ÉäE¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þè* =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB iÉÉä Eòè±ÉäÆb÷®ú ¨ÉäÆ 365 ÊnùxÉ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* They can go for elections every year. But the small parties cannot go for elections because elections have become a luxurious thing for them. People do not like it. <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ Ê®úE´Éäº]õ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +MÉ®ú ±Éc÷xÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ªÉ½þ ºÉ½þÒ ½þè: "¦ÉÆ´É®úÉäÆ ºÉä ±Éc÷Éä, ±É½þ®úÉäÆ ºÉä ±Éc÷Éä, ÊEòiÉxÉä iÉEò SÉ±ÉÉäMÉä ÊEòxÉÉ®úä-ÊEòxÉÉ®úä*" ¤É½þÖiÉ nù¡òÉ ÊEòxÉÉ®úä-ÊEòxÉÉ®úä SÉ±Éä ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +¤É ÊEòxÉÉ®úä-ÊEòxÉÉ®úä SÉ±ÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä BEò ´É¹ÉÇ ½þÖ+É ½þè +Éè®ú <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä EòÉ¨É Eò®úxÉÉ ¶ÉÖ¯û ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, VÉèºÉä {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ, ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉnùä¶É, ¸ÉÒ±ÉÆEòÉ Eòä ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, =x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä ´ÉÉiÉÉ´É®úhÉ ¶ÉÖ¯û ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉ ´ÉÉiÉÉ´É®úhÉ EòÉä JÉi¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÆ]õÒxªÉÚ Eò®úä* +{ÉÉäVÉÒ¶ÉxÉ Eòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ EòÉä ºÉÖxÉEò®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤Éc÷Ò ÊxÉ®úÉ¶ÉÉ ½þÖ<Ç* =xÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ EòÉä<Ç {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* Eòä´É±É BEò ½þÒ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ ½þè ÊEò ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ½þ]õÉ+Éä ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þ]õäÆMÉä* +MÉ®ú +¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ´ÉÉä]õ Eò®úÉ nùÉä iÉÉä +É{É nùäJÉäÆMÉä ÊEò ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú VÉÒiÉ VÉÉBMÉÒ, ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ +{ÉÉäVÉÒ¶ÉxÉ EòÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè* =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¦ÉÒ ¤É½þÖiÉ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É EòÒ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ Eò¦ÉÒ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) UôÉä]õÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ºÉä ½þÒ ¤Éc÷Ò {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* You are asking the support of the independents also. Sir, they should not compel me to say something which I do not want to say because some things must be kept confidential.

What had they offered to one Member of Parliament belonging to the Manipur Congress who was going to London? What had they said? I do not want to disclose it. Sir, please tell them not to insist me to disclose it. I am not going to disturb them. One of our Members of Parliament has also been offered.

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò <EòÉäxÉÉäÊ¨ÉEò º]õäÊ¤ÉÊ±É]õÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè, ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÒ <EòÉäxÉÉäÊ¨ÉEò º]õäÊ¤ÉÊ±É]õÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB ½þ®ú VÉMÉ½þ ¨Énùnù nùäxÉÒ ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Eòäxpù EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú º]õä¤É±É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÒ, iÉÉä nùä¶É +ÉMÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤Égø ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè* <EòÉäxÉÉäÊ¨ÉEò º]õäÊ¤ÉÊ±É]õÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB nùä¶É EòÉä º]õä¤É±É ®úJÉxÉÉ VÉ°ü®úÒ ½þè* VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò {ÉÊ¤±ÉEò ºÉèE]õ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè, ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ SÉ]õVÉÒÇ VÉÒ xÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ =]õÉ<Ç ½þèÆ, ´Éä <ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, ¨Éè Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ºÉ¤É iÉÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ ´É½þ MÉÉxÉÉ iÉÉä xÉ½þÒÆ MÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þÚÆ, +É{É ºÉÖxÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB - "EòÖUô-EòÖUô ½þÖ+É ½þè" ªÉ½þ iÉÉä ¨ÉÉxÉÉ ½þè* {É½þ±Éä iÉÉä EòÖUô xÉ½þÒ ½þÖ+É lÉÉ, +¤É EòÖUô-EòÖUô iÉÉä ½þÖ+É ½þè* This is not in my court. This is in his court. I appreciate that. ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ VªÉÉnùÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ¹]õ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* VÉÉä {ÉSÉÉºÉ ºÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É ½þè, +xiÉiÉ: BEò ¤É®úºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖ+É ½þè* ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¤ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É {ÉèEòäVÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Ê´ÉxÉiÉÒ EòÒ lÉÒ* This is our Bengal package. Anybody can challenge it. We are happy with what he promised us. We are really very happy with this Government. We want to see the development of the States also. If the States develop, then the Central Government will develop automatically. Eòäxpù ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ xÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò½þÒ ½þèÆ* BEò ¤É®úºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¡òÉ<xÉäÆºÉ EòÒ EªÉÉ ÊºlÉÊiÉ ½þè* ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ ªÉ½þ Ê±Éº]õ ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ¹]õ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÒ ªÉÉäVÉxÉÉªÉäÆ ½þèÆ, VÉèºÉä VÉ´ÉÉ½þ®ú ®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®ú ªÉÉäVÉxÉÉ, xÉä½þ°ü ®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®ú ªÉÉäVÉxÉÉ, IRDP, DDP, DPAP +Éè®ú MÉÉÆ´É ºÉä ºÉÆ¤ÉÆÊvÉiÉ VÉÉä EòÉªÉÇFò¨É ½þè, MÉ®úÒ¤É ÊEòºÉÉxÉÉäÆ +Éè®ú ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®ú xÉÉèVÉ´ÉÉxÉÉäÆ ºÉä ºÉÆ¤ÉÆÊvÉiÉ EòÉªÉÇFò¨É ½þèÆ, <xÉ ªÉÉäVÉxÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä Ê±ÉB 209 Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉªÉÉ 1988-89 ¨ÉäÆ EòäxpùÒªÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä nùäxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉ´ÉVÉÚnù ¦ÉÒ <ºiÉä¨ÉÉ±É xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ºÉEòä* ªÉÊnù EòÉä<Ç SÉè±ÉäÆVÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þèÆ, iÉÉä <ºÉ EòÉMÉVÉ EòÉä ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ]õäÊ¤É±É {É®ú ®úJÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þÚÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä =vÉ®ú Eò®ú{¶ÉxÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þè* +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ EòÖUô EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤ÉÒ ½þÉÊºÉ±É EòÒÊVÉB* The hon. Finance Minister is here. So many times, he mentioned about the CAG Report. They misused the funds like anything. Can the Government not hold an enquiry? I do not know why they are not doing it. Mr. Minister, are you scared of the CPM and the Communist Parties? The communists are always opportunists. We cannot support the Congress till they support the CPM at the Centre. Shri Jyoti Basu has said one thing. I am very sorry to have taken his name because he is not a Member of this House. I do not want to quote him. I withdraw it. He said that the Bengal Congress Party is communal and the National Congress Party is secular. What is this? It is a question of double standards. The Bengal Congress is communal and the National Congress is secular! This is the hypocrisy...(Interruptions)

SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : It is about the Trinamul Congress Party.

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : The Trinamul Congress Party is more secular than you...(Interruptions)

SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY (CALCUTTA NORTH-WEST): Shri Jyoti Basu has said that the Congress is communal only in Bengal and the National Congress is secular...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is very difficult to continue this. As far as Bengal and Tamil Nadu are concerned, if one section stands up, the other one blocks it. How to continue with this?

... (Interruptions)

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : We do not want to take advice from the CPM Members as to who are communal or who are secular. We do not need any certificate from them. It is the people of Bengal who have given us the certificate.

SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: Why are you referring to us? Do not refer to us. EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ =xÉEòÒ ¨Énùnù Eòä Ê±ÉB lÉÉäc÷Ò ¡òÉ<xÉ´ÉÖb÷ ½þèÆ* Regarding Bofors to Hawala ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, kindly cooperate with the Chair.

... (Interruptions)

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : Where is the Barrister certificate of Shri Jyoti Basu? Can he show it to us? ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: She is able to defend herself.

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : "Bofors to Hawala, the epic journey of loot, a CPI(M)'s publication, 1996." ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ½þè =ºÉEòä ´ÉEòÇºÉÇ Eòä ºÉäÆ]õÒ¨ÉäÆ]õ Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉÉ<Ç ÊEò EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÉä £òäÆb÷ Ê¨É±ÉÉ +Éè®ú =ºÉxÉä {ÉÉ]õÒÇ {ÉÊ¤±ÉEòä¶ÉxÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ lÉÉ* "Bofors to Hawala, the epic journey of loot, a CPI(M)'s publication, 1996. The Bofors pay off has resulted in a big political turmoil in the country and the fall of the Rajiv Gandhi Government but till now the investigation has not been completed. The allegation is that Rs.65 crore have been paid as kickbacks in the deal for the purchase of the Bofors gun." ...

The Communists have said so. You deny that your Government..... (Interruptions)

SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY : You are in the habit of saying like that and denying it later. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not provoke her.

... (Interruptions)

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : I am not going into the details. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* ____________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY :It is uncultured and uncivilized. You expunge it, Sir. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That will be expunged. EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : +MÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆxÉä ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç MÉ±ÉiÉ EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨ÉÉiÉÉ VÉÒ EòÉä SÉÉä®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ <xÉEòÉä EòÉä<Ç ½þEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* What did she do to them? They insisted that I tell the story. My mother told me when I met her last time. I came yesterday morning. I asked my mother as to what I should do. She replied that she wanted to see that Vajpayee's Government wins. They insisted on me to say so. I am really sorry. They should know what they have to say and what they cannot say. They cannot say all these things.

Before ending my speech, I would like to say that the hon. Prime Minister had promised us regarding the Bengal package. We want that the Government must implement it. It is a fact that the number of unemployed youths is increasing day by day like cancer. Bengal is topping the list in this regard. They are criticizing this Government for one year rule, but they are in power for 22 years, resulting in 57 lakh unemployed youth. May I request you to look into the matter seriously? <x½þÒÆ ¶É¤nùÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÉ®úxÉ VÉÒ EòÉä ¤ÉvÉÉ<Ç nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ EòÉä <ºÉÊ±ÉB ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨Énù®ú +Éì¡ò Eò®ú{¶ÉxÉ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* The mother of a thief always shouts most. ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ VÉÉä ¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ +Éè®ú |É¦ÉÉ´É ½þè* ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÉ EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ÊVÉºÉºÉä +ÊºlÉ®úiÉÉ {ÉènùÉ ½þÉä* ªÉ½þ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ®ú½þä, ¨ÉèÆ ½þ®ú ¨Éä¨¤É®ú ºÉä Ê®úEò´Éäº]õ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ Eò®ú{]õ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä <xÉb÷±WÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä +ÉMÉä xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB, SÉÉ½þä MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ ®ú½þä ªÉÉ xÉ ®ú½þä* This House will continue but the corruption should not continue. This House is not for a day. But corruption has because a cancer-like disease in the country. That is why, I request you to take a decision to isolate the corrupt people.

Before concluding my speech, may I quote Rabindranath Tagore? I am from Bengal. Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav wants to know something. I cannot explain in Bengali.

Rabindranath Tagore said:

"Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high Where knowledge is free Where the world has not broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls Where clear stream of reason has not lost its way into dreary desert sand of dead habit Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection Where the mind is led forward by thee Into that ever widening thought into action Oh my father let my country awake." ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ¨Éä®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä MÉ±ÉiÉ BEºÉ{±ÉäxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ +ÆOÉäVÉÒ EòÉä ½þ]õÉxÉä Eòä {ÉIÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÚÆ, Ê¨É]õÉxÉä Eòä {ÉIÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ +ÆOÉäVÉÒ EòÒ VÉMÉ½þ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ+ÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ VÉÉB* ®ú´ÉÒxpùxÉÉlÉ ]õèMÉÉä®ú VÉÒ EòÒ ½þ¨É ºÉ¦ÉÒ ¤É½þÖiÉ <VVÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* +ÆOÉäVÉÒ {ÉgøxÉÉ MÉ±ÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ +ÆOÉäVÉÒ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä iÉÉä ¨Éä®úÒ ®úÉªÉ ´É½þÒ ½þÉäMÉÒ VÉÉä {É½þ±Éä lÉÒ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ, +MÉ®ú +É{ÉEòÉä Ê½þÆnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÉ xÉäiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉxÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä +É{ÉEòÉä ½þ®ú ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ EòÒ <VVÉiÉ Eò®úxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* If they do not allow them to speak in English, how will they get the support of the AIADMK? ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : +É{É ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉ, iÉÊ¨É±É, ¨É±ÉªÉÉ±ÉÒ ªÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ +Éè®ú ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉä, ½þ¨ÉäÆ BiÉ®úÉVÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨É +ÆOÉäVÉÒ EòÉä ½þ]õÉBÆMÉä* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ : ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ JÉi¨É Eò®úxÉä ºÉä {É½þ±Éä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä Ê´ÉxÉiÉÒ Eò°üÆMÉÒ ÊEò Eò±É VÉ¤É +É{ÉEòÒ Ê´ÉVÉªÉ ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÒ iÉÉä =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{É ¨Éä½þ®ú¤ÉÉxÉÒ Eò®úEòä ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ xÉVÉ°ü±É <º±ÉÉ¨É EòÉ VÉÉä ºÉäx]õÒxÉ®úÒ <Ç+®ú ½þè =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ VÉ°ü®ú +É<ªÉä* ºÉÆºÉnù Eòä +Ænù®ú VÉÉä ºÉäx]õÒxÉ®úÒ ºÉèÊ±É¥Éä¶ÉxÉ Eò¨Éä]õÒ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¨ÉÖ®ú±ÉÒ ¨ÉxÉÉä½þ®ú VÉÉä¶ÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ ½þè, xÉVÉ°ü±É <º±ÉÉ¨É VÉÒ EòÒ VÉÉä VÉx¨É¦ÉÚÊ¨É SÉÖ°üÊ±ÉªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè +É{É ´É½þÉÆ VÉ°ü®ú +É<ªÉä* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ VÉÉä ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòä ºÉÆ¤ÉÆvÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòä |ÉÊiÉ <xÉEòÒ MÉ±ÉiÉ vÉÉ®úhÉÉ ½þè* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ºÉ®ú, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä {ÉÉºÉ +ÉÆEòc÷ä ½þèÆ* +MÉ®ú nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä Eò¨É ®úÉ<]ºÉ ÊEòºÉÒ Eòä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖB ½þèÆ iÉÉä ´É½þ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ Eòä xÉäiÞÉi´É ¨ÉäÆ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä xÉäiÞÉi´É ¨ÉäÆ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖB ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú, ¨ÉÊºVÉnù, MÉÖ°üuÉ®úÉ ºÉ¦ÉÒ ºlÉÉxÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä EªÉÉäÆ ´ÉÉä]õ nùäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB, <ºÉ {É®ú BEò ¶Éä®ú Eò½þ Eò®ú ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò°üÆMÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, please do not interrupt her.

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : Sir, I will take only one minute more, because Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav has interrupted me. ªÉ½þ ¶Éä®ú ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB lÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* "¨Éä®úä ®úÉäxÉä EòÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòººÉÉ ½þè, =©É ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éä½þiÉ®úÒxÉ Ê½þººÉÉ ½þè"* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ÊEòºÉEòä ®úÉVÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù iÉÉäc÷Ò MÉªÉÒ* EòÖ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ ¤ÉxÉVÉÒÇ (Eò±ÉEòiiÉÉ nùÊIÉhÉ) : ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä VÉÉä EòÉ¨É ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú VÉÉä Eò®úiÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ´É½þ ºÉ®úÉ½þxÉÒªÉ ½þè +Éè®ú +ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ´Éä nùä¶É EòÉä BäºÉÒ ½þÒ BEò ºÉ½þÒ Ênù¶ÉÉ nùäÆMÉä ÊVÉºÉºÉä nùä¶É EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤ÉÒ EòÒ ¨ÉÆÊVÉ±É {É®ú +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøäMÉÉ* ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB +MÉ®ú EòÉä<Ç {ÉèEòäVÉ nùä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ nùä ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB =xÉºÉä {ÉèEòäVÉ ¨ÉÉÆMÉiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä Eòä´É±É ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ EòÒ ½þè* +ÉVÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ BEò |ÉÊiÉ¶ÉiÉ ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉäÊ®ú]õÒVÉ EòÉä B¨{±ÉÉB¨ÉäÆ]õ ½þè* =xÉEòä >ð{É®ú VÉ¤É +iªÉÉSÉÉ®ú ½þÉäiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä +É{É =ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ nùäJÉiÉä* VÉ¤É =xÉEòÉä xÉÉèEò®úÒ xÉ½þÒÆ Ê¨É±ÉiÉÒ iÉÉä +É{É =ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ nùäJÉiÉä* +É{É JÉÉ±ÉÒ ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ´ÉÉä]õ ¤ÉèÆEò Eòä Ê±ÉB ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* +É{É =xÉEòÒ ºÉÉ¨ÉÉÊVÉEò ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ nùäJÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÒ +É¦ÉÉ®úÒ ½þÚÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ ¨Éä®úä ºÉä ]õEò®úÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +MÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ½þÚÆ iÉÉä ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ¨Éè¨¤É®ú ºÉä ]õEò®úÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +ÉVÉ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÉ¡ò ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè ÊEò ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä Ê´ÉnùÉ<Ç nùäxÉä EòÒ EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ´É½þ <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùäÆMÉä* +MÉ®ú =x½þäÆ ºÉiiÉÉ ºÉ¨¦ÉÉ±Éä 13 ¨É½þÒxÉä ½þÉä MÉB ½þèÆ iÉÉä ´É½þ 13 ´É¹ÉÇ iÉEò ¦ÉÒ ¶ÉÉºÉxÉ SÉ±ÉÉ ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* +Éì{ÉÉäÊVÉ¶ÉxÉ VÉÉä ¨ÉVÉÒÇ +ÉB, Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉèÆ]õ ¤ÉSÉäMÉÒ +Éè®ú EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ½þÉäMÉÒ* "ºÉ®ú ¡ò®úÉä¶ÉÒ EòÒ iÉ¨ÉxxÉÉ +¤É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ênù±É ¨ÉäÆ ½þè, nùäJÉxÉÉ ½þè VÉÉä®ú ÊEòiÉxÉÉ ¤ÉÉVÉÖB EòÉÊiÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ ½þè*" ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ VÉÒiÉäÆMÉä* <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ ¨ÉÖZÉä Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè* ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order please.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is a lot of noise in the House. Those Members who want to go to the Lobby can do so quietly.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER (TENALI): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I rise to speak with a little bit of dismay and disappointment on the conduct of the Prime Minister who has been running this Government for the last 13 months. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt. BEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ : Ê½þxnùÒ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ nùÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ : +ÆOÉäVÉ EòÉ ¤Éä]õÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ. Ê¶É´É ¶ÉÆEò®ú : ½þÉÆ. ¨ÉèÆ +ÆOÉäVÉ EòÉ ¤Éä]õÉ ½þÚÆ* +É{ÉEòÉä JÉÖ¶ÉÒ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) This Government had faced the confidence vote on the 28th March, 1998. In the last confidence vote, the Government obtained 275 votes. Today, when Shri Chautala and Mrs. Jayalalitha... I am sorry: `Miss Jayalalitha'. ¸ÉÒ {ÉÖxxÉÚ ±ÉÉ±É ¨ÉÉä½þ±Éä (Ê¤É±ÉÉºÉ{ÉÖ®ú) : EªÉÉ =xÉEòÒ ¶ÉÉnùÒ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè? ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ. Ê¶É´É ¶ÉÆEò®ú : +É{ÉEòÒ ¶ÉÉnùÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè iÉÉä Eò®ú´ÉÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ* Sir, when Ms. Jayalalitha and Shri Chautala have withdrawn the support, the Government was reduced by 22 votes as compared to what they had obtained in 1998. The political morality demanded that the Prime Minister should have resigned.

They are talking of the political morality. They have been talking of principled politics and here is the Prime Minister who instead of resigning straightaway, he and his Ministers went on record that `we shall not move the confidence vote and it is for the Opposition to move the no confidence motion.' Those who speak of the morality, those who speak of the principles, those who talk of certain values, should they not have observed those values and those principles themselves?

Why is it that this course was adopted? In my submission, this course was adopted obviously because they wanted that when they gained the time, they could have the horse trading. They could win over certain persons and if a no confidence motion is moved it will have to be put down on the order sheet with the consent of the Government and the Speaker. They wanted to buy time in order to do certain unwanted things. That is precisely why they said that they would not like to move the confidence motion.

Today, if the confidence motion has been moved, it is not because that they are so much interested in the fairness of the democratic traditions but it has been moved because the President has so directed them to do. If the President were not direct to move the confidence motion, I am sure this Government would not have moved the confidence motion. On the contrary, as the Prime Minister and his Ministers had been saying that `even the minority Government could go on and therefore, we would sit pretty till we had the majority for our purposes.' This is a very strange type of an approach that has been adopted by the Prime Minister.

I expected that the Prime Minister, who claims that he has certain legacy of the past on values and principles, would have learned from people like Lal Bahadur Shastri who, when there was an accident in Tamil Nadu, tendered his resignation. He tendered the resignation taking the constructive responsibility. That is the legacy which this country has and that is the legacy which I expected to be repeated from the Prime Minister; that is the attitude which I expected from the Prime Minister. Far from resigning, he has comeforth here with the motion and what is it that he has said? While moving the motion of confidence, the Prime Minister says, `you show us what is the alternative Government.' That does not lie well in the mouth of the Prime Minister to ask us and very rightly, my friend, Shri Lalu Prasad yesterday had answered it by saying, `you go and within five minutes we will form the Government.' Have you any right to tell us that we should show the alternative Government before you resign? You moved the Motion of Confidence; you are forced to move the Motion of Confidence because of the President and you are asking us to show the alternative Government; it smacks of arrogance and nothing else. You do not have the confidence in the traditions of this country. Mr. Prime Minister, you are more well read than me so far as Sanskrit is concerned. I remind you what Lord Krishna had said in the Bhagwat Gita: "ªÉnùÉ ªÉnùÉ Ê½þ vÉ¨ÉÇºªÉ M±ÉÉÊxÉ¦ÉÇ´ÉÊiÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ* +¦ªÉÖilÉÉxÉÆ +vÉ¨ÉÇºªÉ iÉnùÉi¨ÉÉxÉÆ ºÞÉVÉÉ¨ªÉ½þ¨*"

This is the country of that tradition. This is the country where the rishis and munis were born in order to reform the society. And when the society got afflicted of infirmities, great people were born. Do you think that you are the sole repository, that you alone can be the Prime Minister and there is no other person who can be the Prime Minister here? Do you think that you could have the audacity to ask the Opposition parties ... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): You use some civilised words. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I am using the civilised words, my friend. Please, for God sake, do not disturb me. I never disturbed you. You seem to be an incorrigible interrupter. Please restrain yourself. This is not fair. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO : You restrain your language. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I am restraining my language. I use my language. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Vaiko, please do not disturb.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, if I use any one single word which is unparliamentary or unbecoming, I am a person who will myself offer the apology. I need not learn from others as to what language I should use. I might use strong language.

Therefore, Sir, the situation that develops is that a Prime Minister who comes to the House to seek the confidence vote has no right whatsoever to ask the Opposition to show and say that ` ´ÉèEòÊ±{ÉEò ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉiÉÉBÆ';

there is no absolutely no necessity for us. It is for you to establish the confidence in you. What happens afterwards is our affair and we are well within our rights when I say that we will form the Government.

Sir, to say the least, this trait in my submission is a trait which could easily be termed as the trait for lust for power. You do not want to lose the power. You want to continue and cling on notwithstanding the fact that you have lost the majority and you would like to throw the stones at others.

What is the basis for this confidence vote? You may kindly look at it. I was expecting--in fact it has been well argued by my friend, Shri Somnath Chatterjee--that the Prime Minister and those who spoke from the Treasury Benches should have taken up the national agenda for governance which all these parties have drafted last year and then should have made out a case before the House as to what exactly has been done under this national agenda so that they claim the confidence of this House. Not a single speaker on their side has ever referred to this document nor has tried to rely on what exactly has been said here on this and what has been done in pursuance thereof.

If somebody were to show, that look, here is the document; in one year, we have completed these items; we would like to complete the rest in due cpurse and in the larger interests of the nation,thus we would like to seek your confidence, that could have been understood. But that is not the case. If you kindly look at this document at page eight, they claim that they would like to develop a new norm for governance by consensus. What has been written in this document is, "we will, therefore, try to develop national consensus on all major issues confronting the nation by involving the Opposition parties and all sections of society in dialogue; we will also try for a consensual mode of governance as far as practicable." I would like to ask this question to the Prime Minister who heads this Government. Take the issue of Bihar, take the issue of even the Women's Reservation Bill or take the other issues. Have you ever at any point of time called all the leaders of the Opposition and tried to develop a consensus? We passed a Resolution in our Working Committee that on the question of the Women's Reservation Bill, it is the Government's duty to develop a consensus for the purpose of passing that Bill because there were different opinions. Perhaps, it was validly so. There was an opinion that certain segments of the society would not have got the representation at all; certain segments of the society of women could not have got the representation but for the reservation. Some of us had that feeling. At no point of time you called the meeting of the Opposition leaders for the purpose of sorting out this issue.

SHRI VAIKO : The meeting has been called twice.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : You just merely got it introduced because we wanted that. You should introduce it first and this was introduced in the last Session. Afterwards, you sat over the matter. Are you sincere in the case of women's representation in the Assemblies and the Parliament? If you are sincere, you could have taken up their cause, you could have developed a consensus and after developing the consensus, you could have got it passed. Nobody talks now. I remember a large number of our sisters from that side and even from this side also coming into the Well. Where are they gone? Have they forgotten it? Do they not want to have any rights in favour of the women. If the Government does not discharge its duties, what happens ?

Equally, on the question of Bihar, we have taken a principled stand. As it has been talked about here, therefore, I would like to repeat. I have said it outside and I will repeat it here. What we said was, at the time when the Dalits were massacred, we took the stand that Rabri Devi Government had lost the moral authority, meaning thereby we expected that that Party would take their own decision for the purpose of change of leadership or whatever it is as we have done in the case of Orissa, when Staines and his two children were burnt, we did not say that you impose Article 356. It is totally untrue when somebody said so today. This is what my friend, Shri Shinde, had said that he, as the General Secretary of the Party, did not approach in any form either the Prime Minister or the Home Minister for the purpose of saying that Article 356 should be imposed. I am denying it with all the authority at my command. I have got his instruction. Therefore, I am denying it. You go ahead with imposing Article 356. Afterwards, what did you do? Your Home Minister says here is a political person; he is a political personality; such a person should not be there as a Governor, he should be changed and an administrator should be brought. That gentleman, the very Governor, himself says he is proud to be an RSS man.

If we were not to oppose it, if we were not oppose the imposition of article 356, we should have tolerated the regime of RSS which we would never have done. Does the Government want us to tolerate the regime of RSS which was to be imposed in Bihar? Should we not find out why it was imposed? Has it developed any consensus on these issues. It goes on propagating, it has got the propaganda machinery and propagated whatever they liked and then said that we were at wrong. That is the unfortunate situation.

Where is the consensus? On the contrary, I would say that the situation that has developed today in their own allied parties is because of the fact that there had not been a proper consensus that they developed amongst their own allies. ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +É{ÉxÉä BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ UôÉäc÷ nùÒ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ EòÉä ªÉ½þ MÉÉ±ÉÒ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ½þ¨ÉºÉä +Éè®ú +É{ÉºÉä ZÉMÉc÷É Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä VÉ¤É ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É lÉÉ ÊEò ºÉÉ®úÉ nùä¶É ºÉäEªÉÖ±É®ú ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {É®ú BEò ½þè +Éè®ú vÉÉ®úÉ 356 Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ½þè iÉ¤É +É{ÉxÉä ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ EòÉä ¤ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉÉ +Éè®ú =xÉºÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò +É{É EÞò{ÉÉ Eò®ú nùäÆ, B|ÉÚ´É Eò®ú nùäÆ iÉÉÊEò ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ®úÉ¤Éc÷Ò nùä´ÉÒ EòÉä ¤ÉJÉÉÇºiÉ Eò®úäÆ* ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ xÉä +É{ÉEòÉä iÉ¨ÉÉSÉÉ ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É vÉÉ®úÉ 356 xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉMÉÉxÉä nùäÆMÉä* ªÉ½þ ºÉSSÉÉ<Ç ½þè +Éè®ú <ºÉEòÉä +É{É UôÉäc÷ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ SÉäiÉxÉ SÉÉè½þÉxÉ (+¨É®úÉä½þÉ) : ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ {É½þ±Éä ½þÒ =xÉEòä {Éè®ú {Éc÷ MÉªÉä lÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER (TENALI): I was speaking of the consensus amongst the allies themselves. Are the Council of Ministers realising that it is a joint and several responsibility in the Cabinet system? Each Minister speaks his own voice on contentious issues. I need not go into citations. Each Minister speaks in his own way and the resultant effect is that if the Prime Minister has lost his own allies today, it is because of his mismanagement. He has not properly deputed the persons who could have coordinated even with their allies, forget with us.

And therefore, to say that he is an efficient Prime Minister, I have not been able to understand. Of course, some people have now-a-days showered some laurels. They say, "He is an able Prime Minister". I do not know what it is. I would term him as one of the most inefficient Prime Ministers who has not been able to keep his flock together. ¸ÉÒ Ê´ÉVÉªÉ MÉÉäªÉ±É (SÉÉÆnùxÉÒ SÉÉèEò): +É{ÉEòä ºÉ]õÒÇÊ¡òEòä]õ ºÉä EòÉèxÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É iÉÉä +{ÉÉäWÉÒ¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú +É{ÉºÉä EòÉèxÉ ºÉ]õÒÇÊ¡òEòä]õ ¨ÉÉÆMÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ. Ê¶É´É ¶ÉÆEò®ú : xÉ ¨Éä®úä ºÉ]õÒÇÊ¡òEòä]õ EòÒ VÉ°ü®úiÉ ½þè +Éè®ú xÉ +É{ÉEòä ºÉ]õÒÇÊ¡òEòä]õ EòÒ VÉ°ü®úiÉ ½þè* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I will come to corruption. I will come to the corruption of the Prime Minister, if you want. I will talk about it also. ... (Interruptions) b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù : +É{É ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ VÉÖ¤ÉÉxÉ ¨ÉiÉ JÉÖ±É´ÉÉ<ªÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨ÉxÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ <Ç¨ÉÉxÉnùÉ®úÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÖxÉ ±ÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þiÉä ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú ¤ÉÖ±É´ÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS, MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PLANNING AND PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTATION (SHRI RAM NAIK): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I just want to draw your attention -- not about Shri Shiv Shanker -- and ask whether whatever remarks he has made have gone on record.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Whatever indecent remarks are there will be expunged. ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : Eò±É VÉ¤É ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ½þÖ+É* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ ¡±ÉÉä®ú MÉÉ±ÉÒ-MÉ±ÉÉèVÉ nùäxÉä EòÒ VÉMÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* Eò±É VÉ¤É ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ iÉ¤É ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É BEòäb÷èÊ¨ÉEò Êb÷ºEò¶ÉxÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ¤ÉÉEòÒ =vÉ®ú ÊVÉiÉxÉä Uôänù ½þèÆ, =xÉ UôänùÉäÆ {É®ú ½þ¨ÉxÉä Eò±É ½þ¨É±ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ* +MÉ®ú ªÉ½þ iÉªÉ ½þÉä VÉÉªÉä ÊEò EòÉèxÉ-EòÉèxÉ ¦É¹]õÉSÉÉ®úÒ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú EòÉèxÉ-EòÉèxÉ EªÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þè, ÊEòxÉEòä >ð{É®ú EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ½þ¨É =ºÉ Êb÷ºEò¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ |É´Éä¶É Eò®úäÆ* ªÉ½þ ®úÉ¹]Å, {ÉÚ®úÒ ¤ªÉÚ®úÉäFòäºÉÒ, {ÉÚ®úÒ Ênù±±ÉÒ, {ÉÚ®úä Ê´É¦ÉÉMÉ EòÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÉ ÊEò <xÉ iÉä®ú½þ ¨É½þÒxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É* ªÉ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ, ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷É ºEòèÆb÷±É ªÉ½þ ½þè, ½þ¨É ºÉ¤É ±ÉÉäMÉ §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ½þèÆ* VÉ¤É iÉEò ºÉÖ¸ÉÒ VÉªÉ±ÉÊ±ÉiÉÉ +É{ÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ®ú½þÒ, ¤É½þÖiÉ +SUôÒ lÉÒÆ, ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Ê´Énùc÷É Eò®ú ±ÉÒ iÉÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ½þÉä MÉ<ÇÆ, ¨Énù®ú +Éì¡ò Eò®ú{¶ÉxÉ ½þÉä MÉ<ÇÆ - ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉ±É ºÉEòiÉÒ* +É{É nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú ¤ÉgøÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ, <ºÉÊ±ÉB Eò±É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ WÉ¤ÉÉxÉ {É®ú iÉÉ±ÉÉ `öÉäEòÉ MÉªÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉxÉä =ÊSÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉ ÊEò BäEòäb÷èÊ¨ÉEò Êb÷ºEò¶ÉxÉ ½þÉä* +É{É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nù±É EòÉä Ê¡ò®ú ºÉ¨ÉªÉ nùÒÊVÉB, ½þ¨É §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú {É®ú Ê¡ò®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þäÆMÉä* SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Sir, under what rule is he raising the point of order? I would like to know whether you have accepted this point of order and if it is so, what reply you have given to him. He is throwing a challenge upon the House that there are a number of corruption cases against the Council of Ministers and if we start making this allegation in the House, then they will not have any reply to that. If at all they are having any such allegation, then they should make it openly. We accept this challenge. (Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Here anybody who is going to refer corruption matter or any allegation, that should be strictly according to the rules. That should be substantiated or else he has to withdraw it and tender apologies. That is the procedure. Now, that is what I am going to do.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : This is absolutely wrong. He should come out with all the allegations. ªÉä ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÉä SÉÖxÉÉèiÉÒ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* Are they at liberty to say anything? (Interruptions). ÊEòºÉÒ xÉä ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ®úÉäEòÉ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is what I am telling. Anybody who is going to allege here, he has to substantiate or else he has to face the consequences. That is the rule.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There should be no interruption, please.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : The situation that is arising today is in no way our creation. We stood by a principle. We specifically said that this Government is the Government of contradictions. In spite of the fact that they drafted the National Agenda, there was no occasion for the Government to act according to the Agenda. On the contrary, many a segment had their own Agenda to work out and the resultant effect was that today this situation has arisen.

We had been consistently saying that this Government cannot continue because of its inherent contradictions. It will collapse and if it collapses, we said and we stand by our word that we will discharge our constitutional obligation. We would not shirk our responsibility to the nation. The manner in which this Government has worked amazes everyone. It acted -- I would not like to use the milder word -- with a little bit of an obstinacy. It flawed in its working, it flawed in its priorities and the tragedy is that the flaw is inherent in its very ideology itself. That is why, it has broken. That is why, even if they were to continue for a day, it is harmful to the nation.

Sir, if you just look at the various items of the National Agenda - I would not like to take the aspects which have already been spoken to by my friend Shri Somnath Chatterjee - at page 7, referring to the Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and the Backward Classes, this Agenda says: "The interests of Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Backward Classes will be adequately safeguarded by appropriate legal, executive and societal efforts and by large scale education and empowerment". Can this Government show what they have done in the last one year? On the contrary, what has happened is this. When the Confederation of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Organisations brought to the notice of the Home Minister to withdraw the five Government Orders which were harmful to the entire segments of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, which did not allow the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes to claim equality in the long run, no reply came from the Government. My friends sitting on the other side should not forget that the Preamble of the Constitution speaks of the socio-politico-economic justice and equality of opportunity and equality, both. What has been done by them? What has been done by the Prime Minister in order to achieve social justice in this country, in order to see that these unfortunate segments attain the same status as that of the advanced classes in this country? I challenge that not a single action has been taken. When these organisations brought to the notice of the Home Minister that these five Government Orders should be withdrawn, and when no reply came, a Question was raised in this Parliament. And when the Question was raised in this Parliament, the answer was given by this Government that they would not like to withdraw or modify those G.Os. This answer has been given in this Parliament on 25th February, 1999. Are they sympathetic to these classes? Do they want to bring in equality in this country? Do they Want to bring in social justice? How are they going to bring in equality and social justice in this country? This is unfortunate. This is the manner in which they have acted.

The National Agenda further says: "We will present a national charter for social justice"...(Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT, MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AND MINISTER OF DEPARTMENT OF OCEAN DEVELOPMENT (DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI): Can you give us the date when those Orders were issued?

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : The Orders had been issued in 1997. I am not denying it...(Interruptions) There need not be any gleam on the side of the Treasury Benches. I would like to tell you...(Interruptions) Forget about what has been done. What is important is that you are coming with this National Agenda. A representation has been made to you by the Confederation of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Organisations to withdraw those Orders because you say that you are the harbinger of equality, that you are the persons who would like to do all this for these classes, that you would like to bring in social justice.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): You got it issued and you are blaming us for not withdrawing it. What a wonderful argument! You supported that Government. That Government was running with your support...(Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I equally blame that Government. I am not trying to support them...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt him.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chetan Chauhan, please do not interrupt. |ÉÉä. VÉÉäMÉäxpù Eò´ÉÉb÷ä (ÊSÉ¨ÉÚ®ú) : b÷É. +¨¤Éäb÷Eò®ú ¡òÉ=Æb÷ä¶ÉxÉ EòÉä ¦ÉÒ <x½þÉäÆxÉä {ÉèºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Kavade, please do not interrupt him.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : We withdrew the support...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Muniyappa, why do you not sit? Please do not interrupt him.

... (Interruptions)

18.00 hrs. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Muniyappa, he is on his legs.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Even at the cost of repeating, I would say, because it affects a large segment of our society which has been unfed, which has been suffering for centuries, that the orders were issued sometimes in 1997 and we had withdrawn from that Government and one of the grounds for withdrawal was this. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN (CHANDIGARH): They did not withdraw support because of this. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : This was one of the grounds. ....(Interruptions) They may say whatever they would like to say, but I am saying that we are not a party to it. ....(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You can reply to it when you speak.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Merely because some party supports from outside, they cannot fasten that party with liability and responsibility. What we have done is that we had withdrawn the support not only on this issue. You have seen it. There were many other issues also. ....(Interruptions) I was trying to bring to your kind notice ....(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Vaiko, Please do not interrupt. While giving reply, all these points can be replied to.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, what is more important is whether they can get away from the responsibility of what they have said in this Parliament. What is their conduct? I am asking about their conduct. They should not go into the conduct of others. They are seeking the Vote of Confidence. I am not seeking the Vote of Confidence. I have every right to bring to the notice of this House as to how they conducted themselves, what they have done as late as 26th February, 1999 in this Parliament. They have said here that they do not want to modify or withdraw the GOs. Have they any sympathy for these classes? This is the question which I am asking. ....(Interruptions) If they have no sympathy, how are they going to bring in equality in this country, how are they going to give opportunities to these classes to rise above the circumstances in which they are placed, how are they going to bring in social justice? That is the question which I am asking.

Not only that, in this document which I was trying to read out, they say :

"Further, we will present a national charter for social justice."

I would like to ask what has been done in this regard. Absolutely nothing has been done. How do they get the confidence of the people? When they are asking for the confidence of this House, they are asking for the confidence of the nation. How do they expect the nation to give them confidence when they do not stand by their own charter, by their own agenda which they have created.

Equally, I would just like to bring in another aspect. On this page itself, they say :

"We are committed to establishing a civilised, humane and just civil order which does not discriminate on grounds of caste, religion, class, colour, race or sex."

It is very good as though the others are not committed to that and only they are committed to that. We congratulate them! I would like to give certain examples. I have already given one example, their step-motherly attitude towards the Women Reservation Bill which does not see the light of the day till today. They have forgotten it. Apart from that, after they came into power for the first time in this country in the last 50 years, you find that one segment of the society being the butt end of their anger, that is, the Christians. Sangh Parivar is their associate.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker Sir, yesterday the Home Minister was very loud in saying that during last year, there have not been any communal riots. Here is a report of the Citizens Commission on Persecution of Christians in Gujarat. It is only about Gujarat. Forget about other places.

The members of this Commission are from different walks of life. They are Justice H. Suresh, Ms. Rath Manorama, Dr. Kamal Mitra Chenoy, Shri Kirtibhai Datt and so on and so forth. It is an independent association of citizens which was constituted as a Commission. They went into the whole thing. I would like the Prime minister to read this report. It reveals the gory tales of what had been happening in Gujarat. If this is the manner in which they say that they would like to establish a civilised, humane and just civil order where caste, religion, class, colour, race and sex alone have to rule, this country is finished. This country is not safe in their hands. This is precisely what we have been saying.

Apart from that, in Uttar Pradesh, where their Government still persists, an order was issued with reference to Sarasvati Vandana and also Vandemataram having been made compulsory. After that order was issued, a very well-respected, highly educated -- particularly in the lore of Islam -- one Mr. Abul Hassan Nabi just said that if this order persisted they would have to withdraw their students from the educational institutions. The moment this statement was made by him, a search warrant was issued on him and his house was searched. Is this what they call tolerance? Yesterday the Home Minister was saying that sahansheelta is one of the tenets of this country's culture. No doubt, it is. And this is the sahansheelta that they have shown. They have gone for a search of that man's house merely because he just said something. Does he not have this much of independence to utter some words? And they talk of a society without discrimination on the basis of religion. This is exactly what has been done.

On the question of Prasar Bharati, my friend Shri Somnath Chatterjee has already spoken. They got it passed in this House. Did they ever try for a consensus for the purpose of passing it in the other House? That Bill has not seen the light of the day in that House so far. Yet they talk of consensual politics. Mr. Prime Minister, it was the Government which you were running which did it. You yourself have brought it into disrepute, not others. We have taken a principled stand on that.

Sir, what has been happening is that on one side they are only trying to mark the time for the purpose of trying to win over some persons. The events that are unfolding prove the fact that the Government, under his leadership, is indulging in horse-trading and trying to win over the people. It is a highly unprincipled approach which they are taking. ...(Interruptions) This is the reality of the situation. Today, they have won over four persons. Yesterday they had won over Anand Mohan. These things are coming in the newspapers. This is what has been happening.

SHRI KRISHAN LAL SHARMA (OUTER DELHI): Shiv Shankerji, if Chautala is horse-trading, what about Jayalalitha?

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I will come to the question of governance. Their agenda says that their first commitment to people is to give a stable, honest, transparent and efficient Government.

What type of transparent and honest Government these people have given? I would like to just bring to your kind notice that the honesty of this Government is that they have practically about a hundred Ministers in Uttar Pradesh. That is the honesty and transparency of this Government. ¸ÉÒ Ê´ÉVÉªÉ MÉÉäªÉ±É : +É{É Ê¤É½þÉ®ú Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ +Éè®ú ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB* SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I am not concerned. I am not the Chief Minister there. Go and ask the Chief Minister there.

People were suffering some time back for lack of onions. People were not getting the onions in the market. I ask this Government as their Government was also there in Delhi at that time. Did they raid a single trader so that everything could come out? They did not take any action because they are only interested in certain classes because they feed them. They did not take any action. The resultant effect was that people suffered. This is the honesty of this Government.

Equally what has been done is that after the dismissal of Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat -- I am not going into it -- I personally feel that the civil authority is supreme. I do not believe that the military authority can overpower a civil authority because the constitutional system of ours is such. This is what I wanted to say. But the manner of dismissal etc. are different issues which can be gone into. But after the dismissal of this man, this man puts on record in his affidavit that twice the file was sent to him by the Defence Minister for his dismissal and the Prime Minister did not agree. On the third occasion, he caved in. This is what he puts in, in his affidavit. How far it is true and how far it is wrong, perhaps the Defence Minister will himself say. I am not going into that question. But after the dismissal, the Prime Minister goes to Andaman & Nicobar and stays with Shri Harinder Singh. What is the message that you are giving, Mr. Prime Minister? It has come in the newspapers. You have not said this in public earlier.

THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE): That is wrong. I cannot accept it.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Now today you are saying it. Who will believe it? What I am saying is this. I believe it. Mr. Prime Minister, you might be saying it. I believe it.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: There are contradictions only for everything.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : This is what has come in the newspapers. You are saying it today.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: The Prime Minister has categorically said that he did not stay. That is sufficient.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : If the Prime Minister said that he did not stay, I will accept it.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: He has said it. (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (BALLIA)(U.P.): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my friend who has been talking, is a senior parliamentarian. It is the established practice that if the Prime Minister denies something, then he has no right to question it again. You are not the only repository of honesty and integrity. You have named many persons for horse trading and all that. Shri P. Shiv Shanker, please behave like a gentleman and speak within your limits. You say that Shri Chauthala and everybody is dishonest. You must observe certain rules. You are not here in this House to accuse others. (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : He said that "I cannot accept it."(Interruptions)

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN (CHANDIGARH): Why is he making a false allegation?

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He has not alleged anything.

SHRI RAM NAIK: He is very much angry against the Members of this House.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK: He has very much made an allegation against a Member of this House. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN (CHANDIGARH): They are making false allegations.

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) b÷É. ¨ÉÖ®ú±ÉÒ ¨ÉxÉÉä½þ®ú VÉÉä¶ÉÒ: +É{ÉxÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉÖxÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä +É{ÉEòä uÉ®úÉ =Ê±±ÉÊJÉiÉ =ºÉ BÊ±ÉMÉä¶ÉxÉ EòÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ JÉÆb÷xÉ ÊEòªÉÉ, +¤É +É{ÉEòÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè? +É{ÉxÉä =ºÉä º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ ªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ, ªÉ½þ +É{É ¤ÉiÉÉBÆ* ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ. Ê¶É´É ¶ÉÆEò®ú : ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ¤ÉiÉÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÉ¡ò Eò½þÒ, +É{É VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆxÉä {É½þ±Éä ½þÒ Eò½þÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI CHETAN CHAUHAN : He is making false allegations. ... (Interruptions) The hon. Prime Minister is going to contradict everything. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now that the Prime Minister has denied it, the hon. Member has accepted it.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN : He is misleading the House by making these allegations on the basis of newspaper reports. ... (Interruptions) He is a senior leader. ... (Interruptions) We do not want to learn from him.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Satya Pal Jain, please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : When he said it, I have accepted it.

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN : Why do you not tender an apology? ... (Interruptions) He is misleading the House. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please let me conduct the House?

... (Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): He has spoken about horse-trading. He has made allegations. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK: I said only that he has taken the name of a Member and that Member wants to clarify the position. He should be allowed to clarify the position first. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I never said that. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Anand Mohan, please sit down.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please allow me to speak?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK: He should be allowed to clarify.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Shiv Shanker has said that he has not said it and you have said that he has said it. I will find it out from the record.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN : Let him be given an opportunity to clarify. He should be given an opportunity to clarify.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He has denied that he said it.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will go through the record.

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ¤ÉÉnù±É Eòä PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É, ªÉ½þ ½þÉäºÉÇ-]ÅäÊb÷ÆMÉ xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä EªÉÉ ½þè?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ BEò ºÉ´ÉÉ±É Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* |ÉvÉÉxÉ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ªÉÉ Ê¶É´É¶ÉÆEò®ú VÉÒ xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉÖxÉ {ÉÉªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ªÉÚ.{ÉÒ. Eòä 11-12 +É<Ç.B.BºÉ. ½þèÆ, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÚÆMÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä nùÉä +É<Ç.B.BºÉ. EòÉä +{ÉxÉä PÉ®ú {É®ú ¤ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉÉ =xÉºÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò B¨É.{ÉÒ. EòÉä iÉÉäc÷xÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB EªÉÉäÆ +ÉB* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ¨ÉÖJªÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ¨Éä®úÉ ]ÅÉÆºÉ¡ò®ú Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨Éä®úÒ {ÉixÉÒ xÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION AND MINISTER OF TOURISM (SHRI ANANTH KUMAR): He has taken the name of Shri Chautala; he has taken the name of Shri Anand Mohan also. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ananth Kumar, I will find it out from the record.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI ANANTH KUMAR: Sir, we have to follow some procedures.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please sit down now.

... (Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* ... (Interruptions)

__________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You are not allowing others to speak. Will you please sit down?

(Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All these things will not go on record.

(Interruptions) * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Agnihotri, please allow him to continue.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order please. Now Shri Shiv Shanker.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please allow Shri Shiv Shanker to continue? Let him continue his speech.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When he gets his chance, he can speak. Now, Shri Shiv Shanker may continue.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you resume your seat? ¸ÉÒ ¶Éè±Éäxpù EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú (SÉÉªÉ±É) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, B¨É.{ÉÒVÉ. {É®ú nù¤ÉÉ´É b÷É±ÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions) * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt him. Let him speak.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ramdas, will you please sit down?

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I was trying to expatiate the point of honesty... (Interruptions)

_____________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ SÉÉÆºÉ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉB* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉèÆ Ê®úEòÉìb÷Ç SÉèEò Eò®úxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{ÉEòÉä SÉÉÆºÉ nùÚÆMÉÉ* SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I was trying to expatiate the point of governance that their agenda had determined on the question of honesty and transparency. They have double standards.... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me conduct the House. What is this running commentary going on?

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : When there was an issue regarding one Minister in the Congress Government at the Centre, belonging to Himachal Pradesh, they did not allow the House to run for 13 days simply on the ground that he was dishonest. They had embraced such a person, hired him on their side and given him the position. What type of an honesty is this? This is the question which I would like to ask this Government. What type of honesty are they claiming about? They have double standards. ¸ÉÒ ÊnùÊM´ÉVÉªÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ (¤ÉÉÆEòÉ): <x½þäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä b÷ägø PÉÆ]õÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ. Ê¶É´É ¶ÉÆEò®ú : BEò PÉÆ]õä ºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ iÉÉä +É{É ºÉ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±Éä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ iÉÉä 15 Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ½þÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ ÊnùÊM´ÉVÉªÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ +É{ÉEòÉä ºÉÖxÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ* SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I would like to bring to the notice of the House that sometime back, I had raised the issue of corruption based on the allegations made by a Member of the BJP Central Council Committee. I had referred at that time about the UTI shares in the ITC which were sought to be sold to BAT and the manner in which the value of the shares was artificially increased and that gentleman having put up the papers to the Finance Minister. I had made the allegation at that time and had said... (Interruptions)

AN HON. MEMBER: How many times will you raise it?

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER (TENALI): As many times as it is necessary. We are discussing the Confidence Motion here and I have got to say it.

1829 hrs (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I charge this Government that it had not been the Government of laws but it had been the Government of in-laws. I had said this in this House and I had said, how could the Prime Minister escape the allegation when the allegation is against his own foster son-in-law.

They talk of principles and they talk of values. They say that their Government is a Government of values. They say that it is transparent. When I myself asked for the JPC to be constituted on the allegations that have been made by the former Adviser to the Finance Minister, they did not agree to it. There are various allegations of corruption. There are allegations of corruption with reference to the price fixation of hot rolled coils, allegations of corruption in respect of Enron in Dabhol II. What morality this Government has got? What morality this Prime Minister has got? I would squarely put a question. In the thirteen-days's regime that they had on the last occasion, they cleared the Enron project about which the hon. Home Minister -- who is here -- had said that if they come into power they will throw this company in the Arabian sea. This is what was said. Within no time -- within 13 days -- the clearance was given to them. Today on Dabhol II, in spite of the fact that there is an agreement that they should bring 60 per cent foreign equity into this country, they are giving concessions. The resultant effect is that they are not bringing 60 per cent equity. It is 2,000 megawatt worth plant that is being developed in Dabhol II.

Sir, equally on the fast track power project at Vizag the letter of comfort that has been given is against all norms. There are so many other things. I would not like to go into those things. But these incidents are sufficient to show that this Government had been acting in a dishonest manner. This Government has been working with favouritism and the Prime Minister cannot absolve himself of these responsibilities. I squarely blame the Prime Minister. How could the Prime Minister be unaware of what is happening in the Government and what his Ministries are doing? How could he just gloss over them and say that he did not know anything? When we asked for a JPC to be constituted, if this Government was a transparent Government, they could have accepted the JPC. They did not even accept the JPC.

Equally with reference to the allegations made by Admiral Bhagwat, I would not like to go into those details. But allegations of corruption have been made by that man. When we were asking for JPC they had been saying that they deny the right of the JPC. The truth would have come out as to what exactly is the truth and who is speaking the falsehood would have been revealed. If you think that you are unblemished, why did you not agree for the JPC when we were demanding it with hoarse voice?

Sir, in the speech on the Confidence Motion that the Prime Minister rendered on the 27th March, 1998 he said: " ½þ¨É SÉÉ½þäÆMÉä ÊEò ®úÉVªÉÉäÆ EòÉä +Éè®ú +ÊvÉEò º´ÉÉªÉiiÉiÉÉ Ê¨É±Éä* ºÉÉvÉxÉÉäÆ EòÉ ¤É]õ´ÉÉ®úÉ <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þªÉä ÊEò ®úÉVªÉ +{ÉxÉä {Éè®úÉäÆ {É®ú JÉc÷ä ½þÉä ºÉEòäÆ, Ê´ÉEòÉºÉ EòÒ ÊVÉ¨¨ÉänùÉÊ®úªÉÉÆ ÊxÉ¦ÉÉ ºÉEòäÆ*" ½þ¨É ¦ÉÒ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* What has been done in that regard, will you please tell us? Have you taken any action in that regard? You do not take the House into confidence and you do not take the nation into confidence. As I said, it was the duty of the Treasury Benches that they should have gone through this National Agenda and point-by-point they should have said that this is what they have done in pursuance of this Agenda and therefore they sought for the confidence of the House. Then I could have understood. On the contrary, they are making just some speeches and they want us to believe them. ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É ¨ÉÖxÉÒ SÉÉè¤Éä (¤ÉEºÉ®ú) : ªÉ½þ {ÉÉÆSÉ ºÉÉ±É EòÉ BVÉäÆb÷É ½þè* ¸ÉÒ {ÉÒ. Ê¶É´É ¶ÉÆEò®ú : ½þÉÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè ÊEò ªÉ½þ {ÉÉÆSÉ ºÉÉ±É EòÉ BVÉäÆb÷É ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{ÉxÉä BEò ºÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É ¨ÉÖxÉÒ SÉÉè¤Éä: ªÉ½þ {ÉÉÆSÉ ºÉÉ±É EòÉ BVÉäÆb÷É ½þè +Éè®ú +É{É ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ÊnùªÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : What type of principled approach are these people taking? I would like to bring this to your kind notice. They talk of principled politics.

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Shiv Shanker, there are 22 more Members to speak.

SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I will conclude in a couple of minutes. They have been disturbing me for more than half-an-hour.

I would like to bring to the notice of the House that they talk of principled approaches and values. If you kindly look at their records, if you look at their whole game-plan right before and after 1989, you would find that they have been trying to go ahead with seat adjoustments with disparate parties for the purpose of coming to power in some form or the other. This has been their attitude which can be found from history. Their whole approach or their only destination or aim has been anti-Congressism and nothing else. It is on this line that they have gone into coalition with parties whose ideology have nothing to do with their working. For example, let us take the Akali Dal, Mr. Vaiko's party, and the National Conference. Except anti-Congressism, there is nothing. The coalition based on non-ideology and non-similarity of ideologies cannot persist for long and this is exactly what has happened now. This is where they have to reap the consequences now.

About the achievements, the major achievements have been spoken by my friend, Shri Somnath Chatterjee in detail. The major achievement has been that of Agni-II. I would like to bring to your kind notice that whether it was Pokhran or the bus ride, the Prime Minister is on record in fact when he said that all this is an extension of the Simla Agreement. Then what credit are they taking for? While we congratulate our scientists and engineers either for Pokhran-II or Agni-II, what is the credit that this Government is taking, when they themselves say that it is an extension?...(Interruptions) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É EªÉÉäÆ Êb÷º]õ¤ÉÇ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ =xÉEòÉä? Êb÷º]õ¤ÉÇ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäÆ* SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER: They have talked of stable Government in the preamble of this document. They say that they will establish a stable Government and have talked of able leadership. I am trying to bring to the notice of the House and the nation as to what type of able leadership they have with the manner in which the Prime Minister is acquiescing in corruption that is taking place in his own household and others. It is a matter of great shame to the whole nation. I have given the details of it.

So far as coalition is concerned, coaliations can be successful with like-minded parties who join the agenda. At least, we on this side are common on the question of secularism. There are disparate parties which do not have any common ideology of even secularism. Other parts are different. Each party had been exerting their influence and trying to dictate terms and that is how they call an able leadership and stable Government. Defence portfolio had been asked by one of our friends from the other side and he got the Defence portfolio.

Equally, the Bengal package has been given. At what cost has it been given? God only knows about it. On the threat, it has been given. Equally, the BJD wanted that since they had the legacy of steel, therefore, the Department of Steel should be given to them. That has been given to them. If this is the way, how do you call that this Prime Minister is an efficient Prime Minister? He is compromising on everything. I would like to submit that when they are in the Opposition, when this question comes up, they will clamour by saying that it is corruption. But when they are in power, they call it as a compromise. This is a compromise that they have to make. Whether it is favour or otherwise, this is what is happening.

I was surprised to hear yesterday when the Finance Minister and the Home Minister both have quoted the World Bank Report. What is it that the World Bank Report has said? The World Bank Report has said that India is the most sought after country. That is what they are saying. Is it because that in 1998 you have come to power and therefore it has become the most sought after country? Does that Report say this? Does that news say this? That is not the case. After all, here is a country of about 100 crore people. There is so much of consumerism. There is a possibility of a good market. Therefore, if the World Bank has given that Report, what credit is the Finance Minister or the Home Minister taking for? If it were to be said that because of what has been done in 1998 and 1999 that they feel it is a very good market for them, then, perhaps, the Government could have had a solace for itself. I would not like to go far beyond than this.

I have taken quite sufficient time. In my submission, this Government has failed on all fronts. It has no political morality. I have also tried to demonstrate it by giving examples. It is inefficient and an unprincipled Government. Corruption seeps through every layer and the Prime Minister is the repository of that corruption. The extra-constitutional authorities are making a heyday with the overt and covert consent of the Prime Minister. They have neglected the poverty-stricken masses. I would only urge that for God's sake, they should go and they should go at once.

I would like to conclude by saying that I am confident that this Motion will be defeated by the Members of this House and the Congress Party will stake its claim to constitute an alternative Government.

Thank you very much.

SHRI RAM NAIK: Sir, I just want to announce one thing about the facility of Members. Since we will be working for more hours, we have arranged dinner for the Members as well as the Press in Room No.70, and also for all the employees in Room No.73.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you would be so kind as to inform me how much time is allotted to me, it would help me greatly. I do not expect that you will give me the sort of time you have given to some of the other speakers - one hour or one-and-a-half hours. I do not expect that. I am not asking for that also.

MR. SPEAKER: For you, there is no time limit. You can speak.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : I am sorry to say that the Prime Minister is not here at this moment because I have something to say.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI YASHWANT SINHA): The whole Cabinet is here.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Of course, the whole Cabinet is here without the head! It is headless!! SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : The Home Minister, when he was speaking earlier as the main spokesman of the Government, had listed some parties on whom he has got no further hope that they would be able to correct themselves.

Some, of course, on whom he has got hope and among the parties on whom he says that he still has some hope, they will see their folly and return to the correct path, that is his party. I do not know whether I should be honoured or complimented or mystified by that compliment that he has given. ... (Interruptions) This was in relation to the attitude of parties towards the Congress. If he was implying that our party which has a long record and long tradition of fighting against the Congress misrule in this country and misrule went on for so many years. Therefore, now he thinks that perhaps we should keep that in mind and not take up a position which could be construed as being in favour of the Congress.

The first thing I want to say is that there is no question at all - I want to make clear - of our forgetting anything that the Congress party, while in power, has done against the interests of the people and of the country. That will never be forgotten and that is on record. ... (Interruptions) After all I cannot forget that our United Front Government was pulled down after less than two years by this same Congress party, some of its leaders, at any rate. They had assured us on the floor of the House that they would support this Government of ours and help it to function, but later on when their desire for power for becoming ministers became too much to resist, then the then president of their party took the lead in seeing to it that our Government was pulled down. It was not a difficult job at all because we had no majority of our own. We were dependent on the outside support of the Congress. Nevertheless, they did it on a specious plea about something which they alleged was there in the Jain Commission's Report, which was not there at all. I doubt very much how many members of the Congress party's leadership had even bothered to read the Jain Commission's Report.

THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND FAMILY WELFARE (SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI): Even glanced it.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : It was my misfortune that I have to read that Report because it was delivered in my office, the Home Minister's office by Mr. Jain himself. In that Report, there were allegations made against the DMK Government in Tamil Nadu and I do not go into those allegations now. But it was stated that in view of those allegations unless we, that is, the United Front Government, agree to expel the DMK from the United Front and had nothing further to do with them, then the support of the Congress to our Government will have to come to an end. Well, we did not agree to that; we did not accept that arguments because we think, they were making incorrect, unverified charges Mr. Jain made against the DMK. I hope the DMK friends are here. Yes, because after what has happened today, they should be behind us. You were with us but now you are behind us. Now, you are with them. I wish you well. So, Sir, our Government was pulled down. I know, I cannot forget that the Congress party was responsible for that.

I also cannot forget, I do not wish to forget and I do not wish to gloss over it that in almost the 50 years that they ruled uninterrupted with their own single party majority they have done many things which were not in the interests of the common people, the poorer sections of the people and of the country, as a whole. I also cannot forget that when the masjid was pulled down by some gentlemen enjoying the support of these people, the Government at the Centre was the Government of Shri Narasimha Rao. The Government in Lucknow, at that time, was the Government of Shri Kalyan Singh, but the Government at Delhi was the Government of Shri Narasimha Rao and while one lot of people were actively engaged in demolishing the mosque, Shri Narasimha Rao's Government preferred to play the role of a passive spectator. They never intervened, they never did anything to stop it. They had, with them, the armed forces, the police, the laws, the jails and everything. They could have prevented that, but they never did anything to stop it and we have not forgotten these things. Do they think that we are now rushing to embrace the Congress? Who told them that? But we are faced with a situation where if it is possible to form an alternative Government we should try for that. If we cannot do it, that is a different matter. If we fail, either this Government continues or we, all of us, will have to go for elections which also is a prospect that most of the hon. Members of all the parties do not like.

Sir, Shri Advani was trying to suggest that why a party which has, always, been anti-Congress and fought against the Congress should suddenly become soft towards the Congress. I am afraid, I cannot satisfy his curiosity, nor can I share his views because we have, certainly, not gone soft on the Congress at all. But we are living in an age of coalition politics fortunately or unfortunately and the polity of the country is fractured. Everybody knows it. That is why, it is very difficult to bring about unity even among like-minded parties. It is very difficult for the general body of voters now-a-days to vote for one single party and give it a majority. It is not happening and we have seen it three times. It is because the polity is completely fractured for various reasons, for factors based on community, based on casteism, based on regional interests and based on many different things.

The polity has become completely fractured and, therefore, in this complicated situation the parties on this side are, of course, discussing about an alternative Government. They will have to discuss further about it. They are concerned because they are all interested that this Government should go. The reasons for that are given here in detail by many other hon. Members and they have to replace it with another Government which will be more democratic in its behaviour and more concerned with preserving the unity of the country. The unity of this country has not come about by accident. It has not come about in one day or two days. It has taken thousands of years to create a country, to create a society in such a vast country in which so many people of different origins, different ethnic origins, different cultures, speaking different languages with different levels of development are all living together, as common citizens of one motherland.

It is not an easy thing that the history has brought about in all these years. I am proud to be a citizen of this country because of that. Many people forecast and prophesied and wrote big books about India saying that if the British rule goes from India, this country will not last as a single country. These Indians will fight each other, break each other's heads, indulge in riots and killings and the whole country will go to pieces. The British people, of course, wrote many letters like that. Mr. Winston Churchill spoke in the House of Commons like that. On the eve of Independence, he said:

"It is a sorry fact that we are having to withdraw from India now due to compelling circumstances. But I am warning everybody that once we leave India, these Indians will themselves destroy their country. It will fall to pieces. Nothing will be left."

Well, his prophesy did not come true. More than 50 years have passed. We have many weaknesses, many defects and also many quarrels with each other. There is no doubt about it. Many unpleasant incidents have taken place in this country. But the country has survived. Today, after 50-60 years in the comity of nations of the world, India is counted as a major power with its head held high.

Who did this? Who has to be given the credit for this? It is not this Government or that Government. In my humble opinion, it is the basic good sense, the patriotism and the desire of the people to live together that the common people refused to be broken up to pieces. They have held this country together all these years. Therefore, what I wish to say now is that the country has remained united. It is true. The polity is falling to pieces. We are facing a rather sad and tragic situation. The country has remained one. The political complexion of this country is being fractured and falling to pieces.

There is a crisis for all of us. This is not a crisis peculiar to any particular party. We should think sometimes above parties and think of the fate of the country as a whole. So, what I now wish to say is that, of course, Shri Vajpayee, for whom personally I have great regard, is an old friend of mine since long, that is, before he was a Prime Minister. And I was only a humble rank-and-file MP. But we were good friends. He has asked for a vote of confidence because according to the figures available, his Government had lost its majority in this House. You know why he has lost his majority. It is because a certain party with 18 MPs in this House, which was with them from the beginning, decided to withdraw its support. Now, that gave the occasion for the Prime Minister, on the advice of the hon. Rashtrapati to come and ask the House for a vote of confidence. I am glad he did that. Some friends said, it would have been better if he had resigned straightaway. That is his prerogative. He need not resign. He can test it in the House also before he has to go.

Anyway, what I want to say now is - if you do not please take offence at what I am saying - that many Members have said here that Shri Vajpayee, notwithstanding what his personal qualities may be and all that, is not a free agent. He is working under duress. He is working under compulsions. He is working under the pressures of certain other forces, organisations, parties and so on, who are surrounding this Government.

19.00 hrs. I wish to say, my one main criticism about the Prime Minister is that he knows very well which are these forces that are hostile to many of the policies and ideas which have been formally announced by him or his Government. But my complaint is that he has never taken a strong, firm, categorical stand against them. What this Government, under his leadership, is trying to do?

There is a saying, as you know, in English, `Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds'. =ºÉEòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É +É{É ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò VÉÉä Ê¶ÉEòÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä Ê¶ÉEòÉ®úÒ EòÖiiÉä ½þÉäiÉä ½þèÆ, ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ¤ÉÆVÉÉ®úÉäÆ Eòä {ÉÉºÉ ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : BEò UôÉä]õÉ ºÉÉ VÉÉxÉ´É®ú ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè JÉ®úMÉÉä¶É, =ºÉEòÉä nùÉèc÷ÉªÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòä {ÉÒUôä Ê¶ÉEòÉ®úÒ EòÖiiÉä nùÉèc÷iÉä ½þèÆ* ´Éä =ºÉEòÉä {ÉEòc÷ ±ÉäÆ iÉÉä UôÉäc÷iÉä xÉ½þÒÆ* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ÊºÉªÉÉ®ú EòÉä ¦ÉÒ {ÉEòc÷iÉä ½þèÆ, ÊºÉªÉÉ®ú Eò¦ÉÒ-Eò¦ÉÒ ¨É®ú´ÉÉ ¦ÉÒ nùäiÉÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : ¨Éä®úÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè ÊEò |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú +Éè®ú =xÉEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú, <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ ÊEòº¨É EòÉ B]õÒ]ªÉÚb÷ ±ÉäEò®ú SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨É JÉ®úMÉÉä¶É ¤ÉxÉEò®ú ¦ÉÒ nùÉèc÷äÆMÉä +Éè®ú Ê¶ÉEòÉ®úÒ EòÖiiÉä ¤ÉxÉEò®ú ¦ÉÒ nùÉèc÷äÆMÉä* ¨Éä®úä JÉªÉÉ±É ºÉä ªÉä nùÉäxÉÉäÆ EòÉ¨É BEò ºÉÉlÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉä* ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÉ¡ò Eò®úäÆ ¨Éä®úÒ Ê½þxnùÒ VÉ®úÉ Eò¨ÉVÉÉä®ú ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ +ÆOÉäVÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ Eò¦ÉÒ +É{É ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ ±ÉÆnùxÉ EòÒ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ ¤ÉxÉÉ nùÒ* ¸ÉÒ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ SÉ]õVÉÒÇ : Êº´ÉSÉ+Éä´É®ú Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : Êº´ÉSÉ+Éä´É®ú Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ ¨ÉäÆ +ÆOÉäVÉÒ ¦ÉÒ BEò Ê®úEòÉäMxÉÉ<VÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉÉ ½þè, Ê½þxnùÒ ¦ÉÒ <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ +ÉÊ¡òÊ¶ÉªÉ±É ±ÉäÆM´ÉäVÉ ½þè, nùÉäxÉÉäÆ SÉ±ÉiÉÒ ½þèÆ* ¨Éä®úÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè ÊEò VÉ¤É +]õ±É VÉÒ <ºÉ ½þÉ=ºÉ ºÉä EòÉÆÊ¡òb÷äÆºÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ÊEòºÉEòä |ÉÊiÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ EòÉÆÊ¡òb÷äÆºÉ |ÉEò]õ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +ÉVÉ VÉÉä ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ Eòä ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ EòÒ {ÉÊ®úÊºlÉÊiÉ ½þè, ¨ÉÖZÉä BäºÉÉ ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè VÉ¤É ½þ¨É EòÉÆÊ¡òb÷äÆºÉ |ÉEò]õ Eò®úäÆ iÉÉä ´É½þ ÊEòºÉEòä >ð{É®ú +ÉBMÉÉ, ÊEòºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ½þ¨É EòÉÆÊ¡òb÷äÆºÉ BEºÉ|ÉäºÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +¶ÉÉäEò ÊºÉÆPÉ±É, ÊMÉÊ®ú®úÉVÉ ÊEò¶ÉÉä®ú, Ê´ÉxÉªÉ EòÊ]õªÉÉ®ú, ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ¨ÉÉxÉä ½þÖB ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ ®úÉVÉ´ÉÒ®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, VÉÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ºÉnùºªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ ªÉä =xÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É EòèºÉä ±Éä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, EªÉÉ ½þÉ=ºÉ Eòä ÊxÉªÉ¨É ºÉÒÊxÉªÉ®ú ¨Éä¨¤ÉºÉÇ Eòä >ð{É®ú ±ÉÉMÉÚ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäiÉä, ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉ {É®ú +É{ÉEòÒ ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : ¨ÉèÆxÉä <xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç Ê]õ{{ÉhÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ EòÒ, EòÉä<Ç xÉÖEiÉÉSÉÒxÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ EòÒ, Ê¡ò®ú EªÉÉäÆ +É{É BäºÉä iÉc÷{É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, EªÉÉäÆ PÉ¤É®úÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* VÉÉä ºÉÆPÉ {ÉÊ®ú´ÉÉ®ú ½þè, ªÉä <ºÉEòä ¨ÉÉxÉä ½þÖB xÉäiÉÉMÉhÉ ½þèÆ* ºÉÆPÉ {ÉÊ®ú´ÉÉ®ú Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨É <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¨ÉÉ¡òÇiÉ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ, {ÉÊjÉEòÉ+ÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú nùÚºÉ®úÒ VÉMÉ½þ ¦ÉÒ ºÉÖxÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ BEò ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. VÉÉä ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉEò {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þè* What is the relationship between the BJP as a party and this Sangh Parivar? The Sangh Parivar are not enemies of the BJP, I suppose. =xÉEòÒ ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÉÆMÉ ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉÖxÉÒ ÊEò ´Éä +]õ±É VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ÊMÉ®úÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè, EòÉä<Ç =xÉ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÉ ºÉÉäSÉäÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò Ê½þxnùÖi´É EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè, ¨ÉÊºVÉnù EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè, ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¤ÉxÉÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè, <iªÉÉÊnù-<iªÉÉÊnù, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ EªÉÉ º]õèÆb÷ ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè* ¤É½þÖiÉ Eò^®úiÉÉ ºÉä ¶ÉÖ°ü ºÉä +ÉVÉ iÉEò ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä +ÉB ½þèÆ* ½þÉ±ÉÉÆÊEò ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ¤ÉÒSÉ-¤ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ Eò¦ÉÒ-Eò¦ÉÒ =xÉEòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É føÆMÉ ºÉä, lÉÉäc÷É-lÉÉäc÷É ¨ÉxÉÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´Éä ºÉÖxÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, +{ÉxÉÉ EòÉ¨É SÉ±ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò ÊºÉÆPÉ±É, +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ ÊMÉÊ®ú®úÉVÉ ÊEò¶ÉÉä®ú +Éè®ú Ê´ÉxÉªÉ EòÊ]õªÉÉ®ú iÉlÉÉ +Éè®ú ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä xÉÉ¨É ¨ÉèÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ±Éä ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä +{ÉxÉÉ EòÉ¨É Eò®úxÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ½þ¨É Eò®úäÆMÉä* VÉ½þÉÆ ¨ÉÊºVÉnù ÊMÉ®úÒ ½þè, =ºÉÒ ºlÉÉxÉ {É®ú ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¤ÉxÉÉªÉäÆMÉä* EòÉä]õÇ EòÒ EòÖUô ®úÉªÉ ½þè, EòÉä]õÇ EòÖUô ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±Éä ªÉÉ xÉ ¤ÉÉä±Éä, ½þ¨É =ºÉÒ VÉMÉ½þ {É®ú, =ºÉÒ ºlÉÉxÉ {É®ú +{ÉxÉÉ xÉªÉÉ ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¤ÉxÉÉªÉäÆMÉä* EòÉ¶ÉÒ +Éè®ú ¨ÉlÉÖ®úÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù Ê¡ò®ú nùÉä xÉ¨¤É®ú +Éè®ú iÉÒxÉ xÉ¨¤É®ú +ÉBMÉÉ* VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè, ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÉ ÊVÉFò ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ½þÉ±É ½þÒ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉä¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú Eòä uÉ®úÉ ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÉä BEò ºÉÊ]õÇÊ¡òEòä]õ Ê¨É±ÉÉ ½þè* =c÷ÒºÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä nùÖPÉÇ]õxÉÉ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, +Éº]ÅäÊ±ÉªÉxÉ Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒ +Éè®ú =xÉEòä nùÉä ¤ÉSSÉÉäÆ EòÉä ÊVÉxnùÉ VÉ±ÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉ MÉªÉÉ, {ÉÊjÉEòÉ+ÉäÆ +Éè®ú nùÚºÉ®úÒ VÉMÉ½þÉäÆ {É®ú, ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¶ÉÉªÉnù ÊEòªÉÉ½þè* ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ´Éä Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò EòÖUô ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ºÉä ´É½þÉÆ ºÉÖxÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ +É ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ* ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ iÉèªÉÉ®úÒ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä ªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä, ¨ÉÖZÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè* +{ÉxÉÉ xÉÉ®úÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ - ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÒ VÉªÉ, ´ÉMÉè®ú½þ* =xÉEòÒ ½þiªÉÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊVÉºÉ ÊnùxÉ +ÉB, =ºÉ ÊnùxÉ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É EòÒ VÉªÉ EòÒ +É´ÉÉVÉ ºÉÖxÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ +É<Ç +Éè®ú BEò ´ªÉÊEiÉ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É nùÉ®úÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ ÊVÉxnùÉ¤ÉÉnù, ªÉ½þ ºÉÖxÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ +ÉªÉÉ* ±ÉÉäMÉ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò nùÉ®úÉÊºÉÆ½þ EòÉèxÉ ½þè? b÷É. Ê´ÉVÉªÉ ºÉÉäxÉEò®ú ¶ÉÉºjÉÒ : nùÉ®úÉÊºÉÆ½þ EòÉä iÉÉä {ÉÚ®úÉ nùä¶É VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ: ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉÖrÚ +Énù¨ÉÒ ½þÚÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É* +É{ÉEòÉ ºÉÉè¦ÉÉMªÉ ½þè, BEò BäºÉä ´ªÉÊEiÉ ºÉä +É{ÉEòÉ <iÉxÉÉ MÉ½þ®úÉ {ÉÊ®úSÉªÉ ½þè* <x½þÉäÆxÉä EòÖUô Eònù¨É =`öÉB ½þèÆ* BEò VÉVÉ ºÉÉ½þ¤É <ºÉ PÉ]õxÉÉ EòÒ VÉÉÆSÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉÖEò®úÇ®ú ÊEòB MÉB ½þèÆ* ¤É½þÖiÉ +SUôÉ Eònù¨É =`öÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* VÉÉÆSÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè, VÉÉÆSÉ +¦ÉÒ {ÉÚ®úÒ ¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, VÉÉÆSÉ EòÉ ÊxÉhÉÇªÉ EªÉÉ ÊxÉEò±ÉäMÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þÉä¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ºÉÉ½þ¤É xÉä BEò ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ nùä ÊnùªÉÉ - VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò ¨ÉèÆ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ¤ÉVÉ®úÆMÉ nù±É BäºÉÉ ºÉÆMÉ`öxÉ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç +{É®úÉvÉÒ ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚUôiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, <ºÉEòÒ EªÉÉ VÉ°ü®úiÉ lÉÒ?

He said that there were no criminal elements within the Bajrang Dal. I do not know as to who told him that, how he discovered it, why he should give a certificate to them. +¦ÉÒ VÉÉÆSÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ¨Éä®úä JªÉÉ±É ºÉä `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* +ªÉÉävªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ´É½þÉÆ ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¤ÉxÉÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB {ÉilÉ®ú iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þÉä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* {ÉilÉ®ú ±ÉÉEò®ú EòÉ]õä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* Ê´ÉÊ¦ÉxxÉ ºlÉÉxÉÉäÆ ºÉä EòÉ¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÉ®úÒMÉ®úÉäÆ EòÉä ±ÉÉªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¤É Uô{É SÉÖEòÉ ½þè, ÊxÉEò±É SÉÖEòÉ ½þè +Éè®ú +¶ÉÉäEò ÊºÉÆPÉ±É VÉÒ xÉä <ºÉEòÉä º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷Ò ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ´Éä ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, VÉ¤ÉÊEò +nùÉ±ÉiÉ xÉä ¨ÉxÉÉ Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ ÊEò =ºÉÒ ºlÉÉxÉ {É®ú ¨ÉÆÊnù®ú ¤ÉxÉÉªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉBMÉÉ* <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ´ÉVÉÚnù ¦ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò ÊºÉÆPÉ±É ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ BäºÉÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉ {É®ú EòÉä]õÇ uÉ®úÉ ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÉ EòÉä<Ç ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ =`öiÉÉ ½þè* There is nothing to do with the Court. It is something to do with the sentiment of the people. <ºÉÊ±ÉB ªÉ½þ EòÉ¨É ´Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ iÉäVÉÒ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú +]õ±É VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÖxÉxÉä EòÉä ®úÉVÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ¨Éä®úÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +]õ±É VÉÒ xÉä Eò¨ÉVÉÉä®ú +Éè®ú ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É føÆMÉ ºÉä BEò-nùÉä ¤ÉÉ®ú lÉÉäc÷É ºÉÉ =xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò BäºÉÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÊ®úB* VÉ¤É ªÉä ½þiªÉÉBÆ ½þÖ<ÇÆ iÉÉä =x½þÉäÆxÉä ´É½þÉÆ VÉÉEò®ú Eò½þÉ ÊEò ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ VÉÉä |ÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, <xÉ ½þiªÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ ¨ÉÚ±É EòÉ®úhÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò VÉÉä Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒ ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, ªÉä ´É½þÉÆ +ÉÊnù´ÉÉºÉÒ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä +{ÉxÉÉ vÉ¨ÉÇ ¤Énù±É Eò®ú =xÉEòÉä ÊFòÊ¶SÉªÉxÉ ¤ÉxÉÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, <ºÉÊ±ÉB =xÉEòä >ð{É®ú ´É½þÉÆ ±ÉÉäMÉ Ê¤ÉMÉc÷ MÉB +Éè®ú <ºÉÊ±ÉB ªÉä ºÉ¤É EòÉ¨É ½þÖ+É* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò nùä¶É Eòä +Ænù®ú EòÆ´É¶ÉÇxÉ Eòä |É¶xÉ {É®ú BEò Êb÷¤Éä]õ SÉ±ÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, ªÉ½þÒ ¤ÉÉä±É Eò®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä UôÉäc÷ ÊnùªÉÉ, +Éè®ú EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É* Sir, along with this, these organizations and their leaders, who, I think, constitute, and will constitute in future, a bigger problem for the Government and also for the BJP. We should have some clarity as to what is the relationship and how you propose to deal with these people and why you are so afraid of strongly condemning their utterances and their activities. Why are you afraid? There is some reason behind it. Then, Sir, I did not mention the RSS. I do not know whether formally the RSS is a member of the Sangh Parivar or not. Are they? I do not know.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : It is the fountain-head.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Is it a foutain-head? All right, but I do not generally ask anything here about the RSS because I know that all the leaders of the BJP and most of the Ministers, if not all of them, actually had their training, schooling and driving licence with the RSS. They never hide it. They are proud of the fact... (Interruptions) I said, "All BJP leaders". That includes the MPs.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Even Shri Kumaramangalam has joined it.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : My contention is that RSS organization with headquarters at Nagpur is practising back-seat driving and is practising remote control. Very often, it is their decisions and their directions which have to be carried out by the BJP Government. There is no doubt about it. So, when some of us are very loud in our praise for this Government, our support to this Government and so on, they must also remember that this Government is not in all respects a free agent. It has to act at the behest of the RSS. In that case, if you know that well, you should come out and say we support the RSS and we would like the RSS to have a firmer hold on this Government. I do not know if that is your stand. We saw something happening just now in Bihar where Shri Sunder Singh Bhandari was the Governor. He is, by the way, an old acquaintance of mine. Many of you do not know these things. You should know. He and I worked for a long time together in one Committee which was a Committee to study the functioning of the CSIR.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:It was Sarkar Committee.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Sarkar Committee. You know that the Report is there. He and I were members of that Committee along with others and we got to know each other quite well. And Shri Sunder Singh Bhandari was appointed as the Governor of Bihar -- I do not know for certain, I cannot prove it -possibly on the advice of the RSS because he was a prominent RSS man and I found no reason why he should be sent to Bihar at that particular juncture, unless it was with the intention of destabilising that Government, the Government of Shrimati Rabri Devi. Then we know what happened subsequently and all that, how the article 356 thing misfired and the Government was removed. First of all the Chief Minister had to go and later on she had to be reinstated because the approval for the imposition of article 356 is not confined to the Lok Sabha but includes both the Houses and it could not possibly get the approval of the other House and so it had to be withdrawn.

At that stage the Governor, Shri Sunder Singh Bhandari, or at some stage, was found to declare openly that he was an RSS man and he was proud to be an RSS man. He can be proud. I do not grudge him his pride. If he finds pride in that, let him enjoy it. But what happens to the Sarkaria Commission's Report and the guidelines which are there for the Government and for all Governments to follow? Of course, they are guidelines; they are not mandatory. But they are guidelines which have acquired over the years a considerable amount of respectability and are accepted.

One of the guidelines is that a person who is selected to be a Governor of a state should not be a person who has been very active in politics and certainly he should not be a person who is an active member or a leader of a political party or an organisation. But he was appointed and sent. Later on when he ran into difficulties there he said that "I am a member of the RSS, so what?" How strange things happen! The Minister of Home Affairs came out with a statement saying that he felt that normally the Governor of a State should be an `apolitical' man; `apolitical' means non-political in the sense in which the Sarkaria Commission meant it. `Apolitical' means `above politics'. He should be a better person, like that. And then the order came to withdraw him, or transfer him from Bihar. That was understandable and it was really a commendable thing for Shri Advani to have recognised it, though at some later stage. When they appointed, they did not remember what his origins were.

But at this stage, Shri Advani said, "Yes, it would have been better to have an apolitical man as the Governor." So, he was transferred. After two, three or four days they brought him back again. Later he was again transferred, I think, now to Gujarat. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : +Éè®ú ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉÒ* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉÒ ªÉÉ EªÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* The coming of a visiting cricket team is a normal thing. The arrangement of cricket matches or the programmes between different countries is fixed and they were due to come here to play. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : PÉÖ]õxÉä ]õäEòä* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : xÉ½þÒÆ, PÉÖ]õxÉä ]õäEòä =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉÉ±É `öÉEò®úä VÉÒ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä, VÉ¤É ´É½þ ÊFòEòä]õ EòÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ lÉÉ* {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ ]õÒ¨É EòÉä ½þ¨ÉxÉä ½þÒ +É¨ÉÆÊjÉiÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ, ´É½þ EòÉä<Ç VÉ¤É®únùºiÉÒ ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ +É ®ú½þä lÉä* And Shri Bal Thackeray had issued a statement saying that they would not be allowed to play, at least in Mumbai, his argument being that they were coming from a country which was hostile to us, which was trying to attack us, that it was sending armed people across the border, killing people and so on.

Why should they be allowed to come and play the cricket? I will not allow it and we will ask all our people to dig up the pitch so that they cannot play cricket here. Shri Vaiko, have you ever played cricket? Are you interested in cricket?

SHRI VAIKO: Not, at all. I am not interested in cricket. I am interested in other sports like football.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : But my only trouble with you is that out of this whole combination, only you seem to know Shri Vajpayee. You do not know the other people whom I knew. You do not know them, you have never seen them and you do not know anything about them. ...(Interruptions). The Leader of the Shiv Sena wanted the cricket pitch to be dug up so that no matches could be played. There was a great deal of concern being expressed about this in the media and in sports circles and in Pakistan, etc. It was in the face of these threats that the Minister of Home Affairs rushed to Mumbai. Well, I am not going to say that he fell at the feet of Shri Thackery, but there were some confidential talks and all that. Then, it was announced that Shri Bal Thackery has said very generously, `All right, I am postponing my decision for one year. After one year, we can start digging up the pitch again, but for one year, they can be allowed to play'.....(Interruptions). ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä (®úixÉÉÊMÉÊ®ú): +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉÉ±É `öÉEò®úä VÉÒ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É Ê±ÉªÉÉ ½þè <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ nùÒ VÉÉB* ¨ÉÖZÉä ÊEòºÉÒ EòÒ +É±ÉÉäSÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÒ ½þè* +MÉ®ú +É{É <VÉÉVÉiÉ nùäÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä ®úJÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : EªÉÉ ¨ÉèÆxÉä EòÉä<Ç +ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : +É{ÉxÉä ºÉiªÉ Eò½þÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ ÊFòEòä]õ ]õÒ¨É EòÉ <ºÉÊ±ÉB Ê´É®úÉävÉ ½þÖ+É ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : +É{ÉEòÉä VÉ¤É ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ iÉÉä +É{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þxÉÉ* ºÉ¨ÉªÉ VªÉÉnùÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : VÉÉä ºÉiªÉ +Éè®ú ´ÉÉºiÉÊ´ÉEòiÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ºÉ¨¨ÉÖJÉ ®úJÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* +É{ÉxÉä +ÉvÉÉ ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚ®úÉ ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : +É{ÉEòÉ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú B±ÉÉ>ð xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ VÉÒ xÉä ¤ÉÉ±É `öÉEò®úä VÉÒ EòÉ =±±ÉäJÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ ÊFòEòä]õ ]õÒ¨É EòÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉ Ê¶É´É ºÉäxÉÉ |É¨ÉÖJÉ xÉä ÊEòªÉÉ* <ºÉ ºÉÆnù¦ÉÇ ¨ÉäÆ =x½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ =xÉEòÉ =±±ÉäJÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* Ê¶É´É ºÉäxÉÉ |É¨ÉÖJÉ ¤ÉÉ±É `öÉEò®úä VÉÒ ÊVÉx½þäÆ nùä¶É {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : =xÉ {É®ú ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä MÉ´ÉÇ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{É EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ? ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : ÊVÉºÉ EòÉä MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: What is this?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): What is this? (Interruptions). ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +É{É Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò nùä¶É EòÉä MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : +É{ÉxÉä ¨Éä®úÒ +ÉvÉÒ ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÖxÉÒ ½þè* +É{É {ÉÚ®úÉ ºÉiªÉ ºÉÖÊxÉB* ÊVÉx½þäÆ nùä¶É {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè, +{ÉxÉä ®úÉ¹]Å {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè, =xÉEòÉ ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) EªÉÉ +{ÉxÉä ®úÉ¹]Å {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ Eò®úxÉÉ MÉÖxÉÉ½þ ½þè? =x½þäÆ +{ÉxÉä nùä¶É {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè* `öÉEò®úä VÉÒ EòÉä ®úÉ¹]Å {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : <xÉEòÉ c÷É¨ÉÉ +ÉVÉ {ÉÚ®úÉ nùä¶É nùäJÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* <ºÉ ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ <xÉEòÉ EªÉÉ EòÆ]ÅÒ¤ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : =x½þäÆ +{ÉxÉä nùä¶É {É®ú MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè* ´É½þ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É: ½þiªÉÉ Eò®ú´ÉÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ +Éè®ú ±ÉÚ]õ{ÉÉ]õ Eò®úÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ {É®ú <x½þäÆ MÉ´ÉÇ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: What is this? Shri Mulayam Singh, please take your seat.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ªÉ½þ MÉ±ÉiÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ ±ÉMÉÉiÉÉ®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉÒ¨ÉÉ+ÉäÆ {É®ú ½þ¨É±ÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) BEò +Éä®ú ´É½þ <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉÆEò´ÉÉnù ¤ÉgøÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè +Éè®ú nùÚºÉ®úÒ +Éä®ú {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉÒ¨ÉÉ {É®ú ½þ¨É±ÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. SPEAKER: Shri Mulayam Singh, please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.

(Interruptions)* ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : BäºÉÒ ÊºlÉÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ®úÉ¹]Å EòÉä {ÉÉÊEòºiÉÉxÉ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ÊFòEòä]õ xÉ½þÒÆ JÉä±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þªÉä, BäºÉÉ =xÉEòÉ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ +ÉxnùÉä±ÉxÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ Ê¶É´ÉºÉäxÉÉ EòÉ +ÉxnùÉä±ÉxÉ ½þè* ªÉÊnù <ºÉ nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ EòÉ +ÉxnùÉä±ÉxÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú MÞÉ½þ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÉEò®ú +ÉxnùÉä±ÉxÉ Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä Ê¨É±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EòÉèxÉ ºÉÒ MÉ±ÉiÉÒ ½þè* ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEò ½þ®ú +ÉxnùÉä±ÉxÉ b÷Æb÷ä Eòä ºÉ½þÉ®úä ±ÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þªÉä* <ºÉÊ±ÉªÉä ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä EòÉä<Ç MÉ±ÉiÉ Eònù¨É xÉ½þÒÆ =`öÉªÉÉ ½þè* __________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded MR. SPEAKER: Now Shri Indrajit Gupta.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR: Sir, I was on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of order? Under which rule are you raising your point of order? Please quote the rule first if you are on a point of order.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Sir, this morning when Shrimati Sonia Gandhi's name was taken, the entire House was adjourned only because the name was taken...(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. Please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing except Shri Indrajit Gupta speech will go on record.

(Interruptions)* SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Why are you getting so excited? ...(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Only because the name of Shrimati Sonia Gandhi was taken, the House was adjourned for nearly two hours ...(Interruptions) +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ, +É{É ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÉä EòèºÉä Êb÷º]õ¤ÉÇ Eò®úiÉä ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ? ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ Êb÷º]õ¤ÉÇ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉä, ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ iÉÉä ¤Éè`öEò®ú ºÉÖxÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* MR. SPEAKER: Shri Lalu Prasad, you are a senior leader, how can you disturb the House like this? ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ¤ÉÉ±É `öÉEò®úä nùä¶É Eòä Ê±ÉªÉä JÉiÉ®úÉ ½þè* +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ?

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Sir, we may have differing opinions in the country and among the Members of the House on this question, but I am saying what I am saying, and I am saying that this was undignified for the Home Minister of India to rush to Mumbai to plead with the leader of the Shiv Sena to somehow get his clearance to allow the cricket match to take place. And I think my view is shared by many people. We have read the newspapers, their comments and all that. The next point which I wish to make is about the composite society, the pluralistic society that has been constructed in India over the years. I feel that this society, the main values of this society, the foundations of this society are under constant pressure and threat now because of these various forces and factors which are operating.

If this is not checked, if the government and the Prime Minister do not take a stronger and firmer stand about this, if it is allowed to go on, it may ultimately weaken and destroy the essential unity of our country. BEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ : ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ? ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : EªÉÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ? ½þÉä EªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ SÉ]õVÉÒÇ : nùä¶É iÉÉä JÉi¨É ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ* SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Sir, specially about these attacks which have been taking place on the Christian community which is only two per cent of the whole population, have our friends ever bothered to think about what its repercussions are and what is taking place in those parts of the country where there is a much bigger Christian population, much more than two per cent? I have particularly in mind the North-East which is such a sensitive region in which there are seven States and about which we are constantly discussing because it has become a very sensitive region which is open to all kinds of disturbances and insurgencies and all that. Everybody knows that the majority of people living in the North-East are Christians by religion. I have checked up and found out that they are deeply distressed and deeply disturbed and agitated by all this news about what is happening to Christians. So, it would be good if we do not take these things so lightly and only say that there should be some debate about conversions or say that there are no criminals within the organisations like Bajrang Dal. I think, this kind of thing only encourages these people more and one day retribution will come. The majority of the people in the North-East are professing Christianity. I am not going into other parts of the country. There are big populations of Christians in the South also, but the North-East is dominantly Christian and we are trying our best to bring that area closer to the mainstream of India and not to allow them to get more and more alienated. But retribution will come one day if they do not see our government taking firm and energetic steps to stop this anti-Christian crusade which is going on.

Sir, I have one or two points more. b÷É. Ê´ÉVÉªÉ ºÉÉäxÉEò®ú ¶ÉÉºjÉÒ : EòxÉ´É¶ÉÇxÉ ¦ÉÒ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ : ¡òÉäÊºÉÇ¤É±É EòxÉ´É¶ÉÇxÉ WÉ°ü®ú ¤ÉÆnù ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* There is no doubt about it, but do not say that all conversions are always forcible. BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¦ÉÒ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè* Yesterday, Shri Sangma spoke about the weakening or the denigration of certain institutions in our country. I agree with him one hundred per cent.

I would like to just mention that the United Front Government, when it was already functioning as a caretaker Government, had appointed two Governors in two vacancies, one was in Mizoram and the other was in Goa. Since I was still the Home Minister, I know something about this in detail, the fact that the Governor of Mizoram was a very senior IPS officer who had been the Director-General of Police and the other gentleman who was appointed in Goa had been a very senior bureaucrat in the PMO. Neither of them was a politician or had anything to do with politics or had anything to do with any party. They were appointed and within less than three months after this Government took over, both these Governors were removed. They were dismissed, but no grounds were ever given as to the grounds for their dismissal. It was never alleged that they had misused their powers or had done something which Governors should not do or had violated the guidelines of Sarkaria Commission. Nothing like that was put forward.

Obviously, they were removed simply because they were the appointees of our Government, the United Front Government. I think this is a blatantly wrong thing that was done. This is one way of weakening the institution of the Governor. Contrasting it with what happened with Bhandari in Bihar, it is something totally different where there were good grounds for intervening. In Mizoram and Goa there were no grounds like that but still it was done purely on political considerations, partisan considerations.

Then, Sir, about the Admiral's case. I am still hoping, I do not know if my hopes will fructify or not, that sooner or later this House, the sovereign Parliament of India, will be permitted to discuss the matter, nothing else; and that the Government, the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister and others will come before the House and make statements, authorised, official statements as to what led to the removal of the Naval Chief and then allow a discussion to take place. That is all we are, at least I am, asking for. There are so many instances which can be cited of democratic countries where elected Parliaments are functioning which have permitted discussions to be held on defence matters, on army matters, even in the midst of hostilities being carried on in their countries, even during war. If you like, I can bring those instances and show you how the House of Commons and the US Congress were allowed to discuss these matters and shelter was not taken behind the plea that these are matters of security concern and, therefore, they should not be discussed.

Not allowing the House to discuss this issue amounts, in my opinion, to contempt of Parliament. The media can be told, the Ministers can appear on TV and make long statements as to why they took that stance, but Parliament is not permitted to hear about it from the Government or to discuss the matter! This, I think, is intolerable. This is the first time in the history of our country that Parliament has been treated in this way. I read that the hon. Prime Minister has said somewhere, once or twice when the demand for a JPC was raised very stridently first of all by our Congress friends. He has said that a JPC can come only after a debate and a discussion is over. If a debate or a discussion shows that there is some prima facie matter of corruption, this is dealing with the corruption matters which Bhagwat had raised, then a JPC can certainly be appointed to go into those matters. But without a discussion or anything, you cannot certainly have a JPC hanging in the air. Okay, I accept his argument. Why does he not allow a discussion? Allow a discussion and then if something comes out of it which we feel requires further investigation, then the case for JPC will be made much stronger. On the one hand he said `no JPC' and on the other hand he said `no discussion'. Then, why not abolish this Parliament? Why are we keeping it, for what purpose? This is a way of demolishing the established Constitutional institutions of the country.

I am not bothered about this man Bhagwat. I do not know whether he has done something right or wrong, or he should have behaved in a different manner and so on. I am bothered about the institution of the Service Chiefs. Today, it is the Naval Chief, tomorrow it may be the Army Chief or the Air Force Chief. These are institutions under which there are thousands of men who are responsible for the safety and the defence of this country, thousands of trained men who carry out orders of these Chiefs.

The Chief has a big responsibility. He is not a chaprasi or a cook or something that he can be dismissed just like that without anybody being told what are the grounds for his removal, without giving him any chance to defend himself and without any inquiry being held. How can this be permitted? Parliament must be allowed to express its views on this matter. I am very much concerned about what we hear. I do not know. We are hearing many reactions or repercussions among the armed forces as a result of the way that this removal was done. I am not saying that the removal was not necessarily justified. It may have been or may not have been, but the way in which it was done has certainly caused deep concern and anguish among many people in the armed forces including senior officers and retired officers and all that. So, I would request that provision must be made at the earliest for a proper discussion in this matter.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : By the new Government.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : One thing that the Defence Minister said was that this Admiral had become a security risk. It is a very very serious thing to say. It is a very serious charge to make against the Head of one of the Defence Forces unless it is proved. If it was found that he was a security risk, when was that found? How long ago? If it was found that he was a security risk, why was he not removed earlier? If he was a security risk who was doing something betraying the interests, he should have been courtmartialled and some severe steps should have been taken against him much earlier. You did nothing. But suddenly he is removed. No grounds are given. There is no explanation from the Government and then when he comes out with some counter charges against the Defence Minister, then you start saying that he had become a security risk. But we will not be allowed to discuss these matters in Parliament. I think this is an intolerable situation. No elected Parliament in any country would tolerate this kind of behaviour towards him. Therefore, kindly see to it that in the course of the present Session, time is found for a proper discussion on this matter.

Finally, I would say with regard to the Finance Minister, well, he has said many things and made many claims. His Budget is there and we are still to discuss the Budget and we are still to come to the Finance Bill and all that. My main charge against him is against his present policies. They may be the policies of his predecessors also. I do not say it is something original which has come out of his brain. There is a continuity of these things. But ever since 1991, certain policies are being followed, economic policies, financial policies, commercial policies, which are more or less being still pursued along the same lines. My contention is that these policies, for example, the import export policy, are being implemented in a way which will destroy, if not weaken seriously, the interests of our national industries, the industries which have been built up over the years by the toil of our people in this country, the employers, the investors, the entrepreneurs, the workers, all these people together have constructed quite a big industrial sector in our country. There is no doubt about that. They are bigger than in many other developing countries or former colonial countries. Now we want that sector to be further strengthened, to be further expanded. We do not want it to be curtailed or to be weakened by allowing unequal competition with much more powerful rivals, competitors, from abroad who have immense resources at their disposal. Such resources our investors and entrepreneurs can never hope to mobilise. You throw open the gates. You throw open the doors to them to come in. You reduce import duties all along the line. I am not the one who is complaining only. The people who are affected are complaining.

They will not be able to stand the competition from these powerful multinationals and others coming from abroad; and gradually, our establishments, factories and industries will have to close down. They will be very seriously affected by what is happening.

I think, there is something that has come up inside the context of the BJP called Swadeshi Jagran Manch. Some of them may be a part of the Swadeshi Jagran Manch. I am not very clear whether they have spelt out exactly what they mean. Swadeshi is a very easy word to use. It can mean many things. I think, it should certainly mean some amount of self-reliance, much more than what we are practising at the moment. It should not be that only Indian monopoly houses and those who are able to collaborate with the foreign companies will prosper and all the others will go to the wall.

In the case of some very leading public sector concerns which are doing well and making good profits, the Disinvestment Commission has recommended heavy disinvestment of their shares. This seems to me to be a preliminary step towards privatisation in spite of everything. We are reassured by the Minister that they have taken a pledge to protect these industries, to strengthen them and see that they are properly run and so on but we have grave misgivings. I think, these misgivings are shared certainly by one section. ... (Interruptions) They have expressed alarm at what is taking place. So, I would request the hon. Prime Minister not to leave all of it to Shri Yashwant Sinha. He should also take interest to look into them and see that the interests of our native, domestic industries are properly protected and that they are not driven to the wall.

The global players are out to capture the markets everywhere. Everybody knows this. Globalisation means that the more powerful are out to capture the markets of the less powerful countries. There is a big drive that is going on. They have tremendous resources at their disposal. So, we must be very clear where we will allow them to enter, where we will not allow them to enter and where we will allow them to enter only on certain conditions so that the basic interests of our country and our people are safeguarded. What is wrong in that? It is wrong to sacrifice them because some rich and powerful people are pressurising our Government to open the gates wider and wider for them to come in. This policy, in the long run, I think, will harm very much the interests of our national economy. This should be looked into and wherever necessary, it should be rectified.

A new policy may not be liked by some people but we should have the courage to push through. There are some smaller countries which are doing it. Recently, I was on a visit to Vietnam. Vietnam is one of those countries, which among the South-East Asian countries had suffered from a great slump, recession and bankruptcy of firms. We know what happened in South Korea, Indonesia and all those other countries. They had prospered a lot and everybody was holding them as `Asian Tigers'. They suddenly discovered that they were not tigers and have become pussy cats. They have suffered greatly from closures, bankruptcies, unemployment, retrenchment and all that.

We found to our surprise that Vietnam being a very very small country had somehow or the other managed to avoid this crisis and escaped. How? I did not know. I took advantage of my stay there to have some discussions with some of the Ministers and other people. I asked them. What they said was that their experience had been that if we go all out to mobilise our own domestic resources and not become dependent on World Bank and the IMF and shape our production process in a way which caters to the needs of our people and our domestic market not only for the purposes of profit making, then we can escape the worst offensive of this kind of capitalist crisis.

A prescription has been given - you may not like it - by the first Asian and not the first Indian to become the Master of Trinity College, Cambridge, a prestigious college and later got a Nobel prize, Dr. Amartya Sen, who visited this country recently. I think, all Indians should be proud of his achievement. But it was of course natural that he, being a Bengali, got a much bigger reception and felicitation while he was in Calcutta, in Shanti Niketan and other places in Bengal. It was a much bigger reception and felicitation than he got in the capital city of India. I think, he got a reception here, but it was not very much big. ... (Interruptions)

I cannot go into the details now. But he prescribed some five or six things for poorer countries, for developing countries like ours as to how to lift themselves up. He had said that production should not be measured only in terms of quantum of output and quantum of profits, but should also be measured on the availability and utilisation of local resources for consumption of the people and their requirements and to the home markets. He has also stressed it greatly in the course of which he cited the example of Kerala, about primary education, women's education specially and education of the girl child, health care in the villages, in the rural areas, land reforms, etc., and he had said that the quality of social life and political life in any country will only improve when greater and greater numbers of women get qualified to come forward and participate in, a view which is not very easily reflected in our Parliament unfortunately. I am just telling you what Dr. Amartya Sen has said; and that is a prescription that he is going around advocating.

I would request the Finance Minister - there are plenty of documents and books - to study them and see what the implications of this policy would be, as advocated by him and if we try to follow that prescription to the extent possible and practicable in our country, it might bring us good dividends.

That is all I have to say. Therefore, I cannot support the motion of the Prime Minister because I certainly do not want to support Shri Acharia Giriraj Kishore or Shri Ashok Singhal, till I know that this Government is going to prevent them from carrying out their anti-national activities. Up to now, they have been following a very weak and a vacillating policy towards these organisations which are disruptive, which are communal, which are violent and which are prepared to do anything in order to reach their objectives. ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ SÉ¨ÉxÉ ±ÉÉ±É MÉÖ{iÉ (>ðvÉ¨É{ÉÖ®ú): VÉÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ªÉä BÆ]õÒ xÉä¶ÉxÉ±É BE]õÒÊ´É]õÒWÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* How can he say that their activities are anti-national? This is a very serious word. VÉÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ Êb÷¡òäÆb÷ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉä, =xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòèºÉä Eò½þ ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : So, Sir, for this reason I do not find it possible to support the Motion moved by the hon. Prime Minister expressing confidence in his Government. I oppose it.

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... (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Sir, please protect me. I am not yielding.

MR. SPEAKER: He is not yielding.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Sir, I seek your protection.

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... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) <ºÉ {É®ú ½þ¨ÉäÆ ]õÉäEòxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ºÉèEòÖÊ®úV¨É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè* =ºÉEòÒ ªÉÉnù Ênù±ÉÉxÉä {É®ú Eò<Ç ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉÉ®úÉVÉ +Éè®ú MÉÖººÉÉ ½þÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* <ºÉÒ Ênù±±ÉÒ EòÒ ºÉc÷EòÉäÆ {É®ú ºÉÉgøä iÉÒxÉ ½þVÉÉ®ú ÊºÉJÉÉäÆ EòÉä VÉ¤É ¨ÉÉ®úÉ MÉªÉÉ iÉÉä +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ ´É½þ ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú Eò½þÉÆ lÉÉ?

When a big tree falls the earth is bound to shake. ªÉÉnù ½þè, ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ÊEòºÉ xÉä Eò½þÒ lÉÒ? +É{É <ºÉä ¦ÉÚ±É MÉB* ´Éä Eòä´É±É Ênù±±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉ®úä MÉB, ºÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ÊºÉJÉÉäÆ Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò +Ê¦ÉªÉÉxÉ SÉ±ÉÉ* ÊºÉJÉÉäÆ EòÉä SÉ±ÉiÉÒ ]ÅäxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÉ®úÉ MÉªÉÉ* <xÉ MÉ®úÒ¤É ÊºÉJÉÉäÆ +Éè®ú =xÉEòÒ ¨ÉÊ½þ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ EòÉèxÉ ºÉÉ MÉÖxÉÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É? =xÉEòä ¤ÉSSÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ EªÉÉ VÉÖ±¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ? ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : ÊVÉx½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉ½þ EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ ´Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ +ÉVÉ =vÉ®ú ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ÊºÉJÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¨ÉÉ®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÉä UôÉäc÷ Eò®ú ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. ¨ÉäÆ {É½þÖÆSÉ MÉB ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded) ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : ½þ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ {ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÒ ½þiªÉÉ iÉEò ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ºÉÒÊ¨ÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ®ú½þÉ* <ºÉ EòÉÆb÷ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ÊnùºÉ¨¤É®ú, 1984 ¨ÉäÆ nùä¶É Eòä +Ænù®ú +É¨É SÉÖxÉÉ´É ½þÖªÉä* EªÉÉ +É{É ¦ÉÚ±É MÉªÉä? =ºÉ +É¨É SÉÖxÉÉ´É ¨ÉäÆ VÉÒiÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þÖªÉä ½þèÆ* ...** ®úÉVÉä¶É {ÉÉªÉ±É]õ VÉÒ, it was done in December, 1984.

SHRI RAJESH PILOT (DAUSA): We fought the election in 1984. It was never there.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I will provide you the newspapers. You will have to take back your words. I will provide the newspapers of those days. ¸ÉÒ ¤É±É®úÉ¨É VÉÉJÉc÷ (¤ÉÒEòÉxÉä®ú): ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ Eò¨ÉÉÆb÷®ú <xÉ SÉÒ¡ò ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ lÉÉ, |ÉäºÉÒb÷äÆ]õ ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ lÉÉ* EªÉÉ BEò ¤ÉºÉ EòÆb÷E]õ®ú EòÉä ¤Énù±ÉiÉä Ê¡ò®úäÆMÉä? ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÉ BEò iÉ®úÒEòÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I appeal to all of you not to disturb him. It is a very serious debate that is going on. Whatever statement he is making, you can refute it when you speak.

___________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded ** Expunged as ordered by the chair PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, it is a wild and baseless allegation. How do you allow those things? It is unbecoming of a Minister. (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: If all that I have said so far is proved to be wild and baseless, I shall resign from this House and leave the House for all times to come. ¸ÉÒ ÊnùÊM´ÉVÉªÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ (¤ÉÉÆEòÉ): +¤É +É{É VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùÒÊVÉªÉä +Éè®ú < xÉEòÉ <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ ±Éä ±ÉÒÊVÉªÉä* SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I shall resign from this House and go out of this House for all times to come. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Was it published by the Congress Party?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Yes; I am talking about the Congress Party to which you also belong. You seem to have very short memories. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Digvijay Singh, Shri Vaiko, let us hear him.

... (Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Shri George Fernandes, it is not even possible to think that the Congress Party will resort to such things. I am telling you, you have no ideology. You were here and you went there. You have no ideology. Do not bring such allegations. Do not do like this. (Interruptions)

SHRI PRITHVIRAJ D. CHAVAN (KARAD): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, he is making wild allegations, Let him produce that newspaper and let him speak tomorrow. (Interruptions)

SHRI MOTILAL VORA (RAJNANDGAON): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, he should not be allowed to level wild allegations against our party. We object to it. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please listen to me?

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Handique, please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please hear me.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He is narrating something.

SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Sir, he is not narrating. It is a charge that such a poster was published by the All India Congress Committee or by the Congress Party which said: "will you believe a Sikh?" It is a charge on the Congress Party. We are all part of the Congress Party. (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I am charging the Congress Party. I am not charging any other party. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJESH PILOT : You prove that charge.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I shall prove all the things that I have said here. (Interruptions) I will prove it and if I do not prove it, I will resign from this House. ¸ÉÒ ¤É±É®úÉ¨É VÉÉJÉc÷ : EªÉÉ ½þ¨É EòÆb÷E]õ®ú ¤Énù±ÉEò®ú..... ¸ÉÒ VÉÉìVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒºÉ: ªÉä xÉäiÉÉ ½þèÆ, <xÉEòÉä BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þªÉä* Will you hold on to the Congress Party?... (Interruptions) Ê¡ò®ú? SÉÖxÉÉèiÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ nùäxÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¦ÉÚ±É VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ®úÉVÉä¶É ºÉÉ½þ¤É EòÉä iÉÉä BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* +É{ÉEòÉä +MÉ®ú ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É xÉ ½þÉä iÉÉä +É{É Eò½þäÆ +É{ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ nùäJÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉÒ ½þÉÆ, +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ ºÉ®únùÉ®úÉäÆ Eòä ¡òÉä]õÉä Eòä ºÉÉlÉ Uô{ÉÉ lÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please hear me, Mr. Minister?

SHRI RAJESH PILOT: Sir, it is a charge on my party. Please prove it tomorrow on the Floor of the House. If we have done this, we apologise to the nation. But this is not done by the Congress Party. ... (Interruptions) You bring that tomorrow and lay it on the Table of the House. ... (Interruptions) If the Congress Party has given this advertisement, please put it on the Table of the House. ... (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You have to give that proof to the House.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA): I will give the proof. I would not be able to fish out the newspapers of 1984 tonight. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me hear him.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDE : I shall give you the proof on Monday. ... (Interruptions) ºÉÉä¨É´ÉÉ®ú EòÉä ¨ÉèÆ |ÉÚ¡ò nùÚÆMÉÉ* ¨Éä®úä PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ 1984 EòÉ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ 1984 EòÉ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú PÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ®úJÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ºÉÉä¨É´ÉÉ®ú EòÉä ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ {Éä¶É Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, please hear me.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When you are referring to some newspaper or some advertisement given by some party, you will have to prove it.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : I shall produce it on Monday.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI): Produce it tomorrow. ... (Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : He should resign.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA): Why should I resign? +É{É ºÉÖÊxÉªÉä* +É{ÉEòÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ®úÉ¹]Å EòÉä Ê{ÉUô±Éä iÉÒºÉ ºÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä ±ÉÚ]õxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú {ÉÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Shri George Fernandes, you were anti-Congress all through. You narrated a so-called incident of 1984. Were you sleeping all these 15 years? Why did you not raise this allegation earlier in the House?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDE: I have talked about it umpteen times. ... (Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : No, Sir; you never raised this issue in this House. ... (Interruptions) I have been in this House from 1980 onwards. You were so much anti-Congress raising all sorts of allegations. But you never raised it once. Why? ... (Interruptions) Now, you are concocting it. ... (Interruptions) Shri Fernandes, you are concocting stories. ... (Interruptions) Let him bring the advertisements. ... (Interruptions) It is a wild allegation. ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ (´Éè¶ÉÉ±ÉÒ): ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ªÉä Ê®úWÉÉ<xÉ Eò®úäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When you are making an allegation, you will have to give the proof.

... (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF CHEMICALS AND FERTILIZERS AND MINISTER OF FOOD AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS (SARDAR SURJIT SINGH BARNALA): Sir, what Shri George Fernandes is saying, I had said so in this House earlier while making a speech. I had alleged in that speech that advertisements were being issued by the Congress Party mentioning Sikhs. A lot of resentment was being generated against the Sikhs. I had mentioned that in the House itself... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me make it clear that unless you have that proof, you cannot make any allegation. Any allegation that is made has to be substantiated. If the hon. Minister has already alleged then he has to substantiate it.

... (Interruptions) MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É EÞò¹hÉ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ): ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ªÉ½þ ÊnùºÉ¨¤É®ú, 1984 EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* ÊnùºÉ¨¤É®ú, 1984 EòÉ ÊVÉxÉ-ÊVÉxÉEòÉä º¨É®úhÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ¤É®úxÉÉ±ÉÉ VÉÒ Eòä º´ÉªÉÆ Eòä <ºÉ¨Éä <x´ÉÉä±´É ½þÉäxÉä Eòä EòÉ®úhÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆxÉä º´ÉªÉÆ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ ½þè* ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉÉnù ½þè =xÉ ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆxÉä =ºÉÒ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ BEò ´ÉEiÉ´ªÉ ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ* 1984 Eòä +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú iÉÖ®úÆiÉ |ÉºiÉÖiÉ Eò®úxÉÉ ºÉÆ¦É´É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ VÉÉìVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ xÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ´É½þ ºÉÉä¨É´ÉÉ®ú EòÉä ÊxÉÊ¶SÉiÉ ´Éä +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú ±ÉÉªÉäÆMÉä* ¨ÉèÆ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò ´É½þ Eò±É ½þÒ ±Éä +ÉBÆ, ½þ¨É EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò®úäÆMÉä ÊEò ½þ¨É Eò±É ½þÒ ´É½þ |ÉºiÉÖiÉ Eò®ú ºÉEòäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please, let him say.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJESH PILOT: Sir, let me repeat the charge again. The hon. Minister has said that Congress Party had issued an advertisement. Let him make it clear. Tomorrow if they bring some individual's name, that will not be recorded... (Interruptions) Let me repeat what has hurt us... (Interruptions) Shri George Fernandes has said... (Interruptions)

SHRI BUTA SINGH (JALORE): Please listen to me for a moment.

Sir, the issue raised by Shri George Fernandes does not have any authentic proof. We were in the Congress Party... (Interruptions) The Congress Party has never issued such statements that the Sikhs are responsible for the murder of Shrimati Gandhi... (Interruptions) It is wrong on the part of Shri Fernandes to say that... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Pradhan, it is a very serious matter. Please listen to him.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me hear Shri Pilot first. I will give you a chance.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Mr. Deputy-Speaker Sir, what has hurt us is that the hon. Minister has said that the Congress Party -- when I say Congress Party, it is a District Congress Committee or a Pradesh Congress Committee or All India Congress Committee or any other organisation -- I am not talking about any individual, if some individual has issued it. He has said that the Congress Party had issued it and that too a poster, initially, then an advertisement. That has hurt us. If Congress Party or its any unit has issued it, he must put the proof on the Table of the House... (Interruptions)

SHRI PRITHVIRAJ D. CHAVAN (KARAD): Sir, it is a very serious matter. It may create communal tension. Let him produce the proof and then we will continue tomorrow ... (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: December 1984... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please, Maj. Gen. Khanduri, Shri Shivraj Patil wants to make a submission.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ Ê¶É´É®úÉVÉ ´ÉÒ. {ÉÉ]õÒ±É (±ÉÉ]õÚ®ú) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ºÉÉ½þ¤É xÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú VÉÉä Eò½þÉ, ´É½þ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÒÊ®úªÉºÉ ¨Éè]õ®ú ½þè +Éè®ú ºÉÒÊ®úªÉºÉ ¨Éè]õ®ú ½þÉäxÉä EòÒ ´ÉVÉ½þ ºÉä +MÉ®ú Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ºÉÉ½þ¤É ªÉÉ +Éè®ú EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ ºÉnùºªÉ EòÖUô ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ iÉÉä =ºÉEòÒ {ÉÚ®úÒ ÊVÉ¨¨ÉänùÉ®úÒ ±ÉäiÉä ½þÖB ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É ¦ÉÉ<Ç ªÉÉ ÊºÉJÉ ¦ÉÉ<Ç Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) nùÉäxÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ ½þè* {É½þ±Éä ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É Eò½þÉ ½þè Ê¡ò®ú ÊºÉJÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò <xÉEòÉä xÉÉèEò®úÒ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ®úJÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ªÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ JÉÉºÉ VÉMÉ½þ {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ®úJÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB, BäºÉÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒWÉ: ½þ¨ÉxÉä ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉxÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ¨ÉÉèEòä EòÒ VÉMÉ½þÉäÆ {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ®úJÉxÉÉ, ºÉäÆÊºÉÊ]õ´É VÉMÉ½þÉäÆ ºÉä =xÉEòÉä ½þ]õÉxÉÉ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉ nùä¶É EòÉ |É¶xÉ ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +ÉªÉÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú ªÉÖr ½þÉäxÉÉ lÉÉ* ¨ÉÉèEòä EòÒ VÉMÉ½þ {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ®úJÉxÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¡òÉªÉ®ú º]õÉäxÉ EòÉ®úJÉÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ºÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉÉèEòä EòÒ VÉMÉ½þ {É®ú ¡òÉªÉ®ú º]õÉäxÉ EòÉ®úJÉÉxÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉÉ®úä ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉÉäÆ EòÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨É =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB ±Éc÷ä ½þÖB +Énù¨ÉÒ ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{ÉEòÉä <iÉxÉÉ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Ê¤ÉxÉÉ ºÉ¤ÉÚiÉ Eòä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, I have given the floor to Shri Shivraj V. Patil.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL : Sir, I have not yet completed. This is a very serious allegation. It should be made with full responsibility. Either the Minister should prove what he has said is correct by producing the documentary evidence or this matter should be referred to the Privileges Committee to look into it or the Minister should withdraw and express his regret. ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ EÞò¹hÉ ±ÉÉ±É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ (¤ÉÉ½þ®úÒ Ênù±±ÉÒ ): ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ªÉä nùÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ BäºÉÒ ½þèÆ VÉÉä Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç {É®ú ½þèÆ* {É½þ±ÉÒ 1984 ¨ÉäÆ Ênù±±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉªÉÉxÉEò BÆ]õÒ ÊºÉJÉ ®úÉ<]ºÉ ½þÖB-<ºÉ {É®ú VÉÉä |ÉÊiÉÊFòªÉÉ =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ Eòä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä EòÒ ÊEò VÉ¤É EòÉä<Ç ¤Éc÷É ´ÞÉIÉ ÊMÉ®úiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä vÉ®úiÉÒ Ê½þ±ÉiÉÒ ½þè, ªÉ½þ =ºÉEòÉä VÉº]õÒ¡òÉ<b÷ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊEòªÉÉ* ´É½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç {É®ú ½þè, <ºÉEòÉ |ÉÚ¡ò SÉÉÊ½þB, ´É½þ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* nùÚºÉ®úä ½þ¨É <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eòä +É<Ç Ê´É]õxÉäºÉ ½þèÆ, ½þ¨ÉxÉä ¦ÉÒ ´Éä Bb÷´É]õÉÇ<ÇVÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ nùäJÉäÆ ½þèÆ ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ 1984 Eòä +ÉÊJÉ®úÒ <±ÉäE¶ÉxÉ, EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä SÉÉVÉÇ ±ÉMÉÉEò®ú BÆ]õÒ ÊºÉJÉ +]õ¨ÉÉìºÉÊ¡òªÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉEò®ú ±Éc÷É* ½þ¨ÉxÉä =ºÉEòÉä nùäJÉÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +MÉ®ú ªÉä <xÉºÉä |ÉÚ¡ò ¨ÉÉÆMÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ iÉÉä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ªÉ½þ EòÊ¨É]õ Eò®úä ÊEò +MÉ®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä |ÉÚ¡ò ÊnùªÉÉ iÉÉä ´Éä nùä¶É EòÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉäÆMÉä* +É{É ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þÉäÆ* BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ +Éè®ú ½þè ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ <ºÉ ¤É½þºÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò<Ç Bä±ÉÒMÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉMÉä ½þèÆ* ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. {É®ú ±ÉMÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉÊEòªÉÉäÆ {É®ú ¦ÉÒ Bä±ÉÒMÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉMÉä ½þèÆ* =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB +É{ÉxÉä EòÉä<Ç |ÉÚ¡ò xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉÆMÉÉ* +MÉ®ú <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä EòÉä<Ç |ÉÚ¡ò ¨ÉÉÆMÉxÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä VÉÉä Bä±ÉÒMÉä¶ÉxºÉ ±ÉMÉä ½þèÆ,=xÉ ºÉ¤ÉEòä |ÉÚ¡ò ¨ÉÉÆMÉä iÉÉÊEò Bä±ÉÒMÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉMÉÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä EòÉä {ÉiÉÉ ±ÉMÉ VÉÉªÉä ÊEò Bä±ÉÒMÉä¶ÉxÉ EªÉÉ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ (VÉÉ±ÉÉè®ú): ¨ÉèÆ +ÉVÉ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê®úEò´Éèº]õ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ashok Pradhan, please sit down. I have given the floor to him.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ½þÉlÉ VÉÉäc÷Eò®ú Ê´ÉxÉiÉÒ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ VÉV¤ÉÉiÉÒ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) <ºÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä EòÉä ¤É½þºÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB, BEò nùÚºÉ®úä Eòä >ð{É®ú <±VÉÉ¨É ±ÉMÉÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB <ºiÉä¨ÉÉ±É xÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉªÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨Éä®úÒ Ê®úEò´Éèº]õ ªÉ½þ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (BALLIA)(U.P.): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, this is a very tragic and sensitive issue. No purpose will be served by raking up this issue now after fifteen years. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. UPENDRA (VIJAYAWADA): He has raised it now? ... (Interruptions)

SHRI BIJOY HANDIQUE (JORHAT): Why should he raise it now? ... (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : All right, if you shout me down, then I shall sit down; I cannot shout ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Bijoy Handique, please sit down. I have given the floor to him.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : I also know something about it and if I shall speak, it will be very inconvenient for many people. So, do not try to shout me down.

I am requesting Shri George Fernandes not to press this issue and I shall request the Congress Members to forget it. If there is anything offensive in your opinion, you should delete it. It is because not of Shri George Fernandes or because of the Congress Party, because this matter will have serious repercussion in the country. I am sorry to say that there is every apprehension that things may go out of control. ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ: ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÒ Eò½þ ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Why are you interrupting?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI BUTA SINGH : How can you shout me down? ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ ºÉnùxÉ ºÉä Ê´ÉxÉiÉÒ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ xÉÉVÉÖEò ½þè +Éè®ú {ÉÆVÉÉ¤É ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éc÷Ò EòÊ`öxÉÉ<Ç ºÉä ¶ÉÉÆÊiÉ ºlÉÉÊ{ÉiÉ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè* {ÉÆVÉÉ¤É ¨ÉäÆ 30-40 ½þVÉÉ®ú xÉÉèVÉ´ÉÉxÉ ¤ÉSSÉä ¨É®ú SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ EÞò¹hÉ ±ÉÉ±É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ : ´É½þ +É{ÉEòÒ ´ÉVÉ½þ ºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ<Ç* ´É½þÉÆ iÉ¤É ¶ÉÉÆÊiÉ ºlÉÉÊ{ÉiÉ ½þÖ<Ç VÉ¤É +EòÉ±ÉÒ nù±É +Éè®ú ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. xÉä Ê¨É±ÉEò®ú ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉ<Ç* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : ¸ÉÒ Eòä.B±É. ¶É¨ÉÉÇ xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò 1984 Eòä ®úÉìªÉ]ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me make the procedure clear now. Hon. Members, Para 46, Procedure for making allegation against a Minister, Member or outsider, Sub-para (4) says:

"(4) As Members are not liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of as Members are not liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said by them in the House, allegations should not be made by them against a fellow Member/ Minister or any individual or a public body unless the allegations are supported and fortified by strong and adequate proofs to substantiate them in the event of the Member being challenged to that effect in the House."

Now the instance is, Shri George Fernandes has alleged something which has become part of the record.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Sharma, you allow me. ¸ÉÒ ºÉiªÉ {ÉÉ±É VÉèxÉ : +É{É ¦ÉÒ ¤É®úÉ¤É®ú Eòä ÊVÉ¨¨ÉänùÉ®ú ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ: 1984 Eòä ®úÉìªÉ]ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä EòÖUô ½þÖ+É, ´É½þ Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +É SÉÖEòÒ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨Éä®úÒ Ê®úE´Éèº]õ ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä EòÉä ªÉ½þÒÆ JÉi¨É ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ nùä¶É EòÒ ¶ÉÉÆÊiÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB +Éè®ú nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉn¦ÉÉ´ÉxÉÉ EòÉªÉ¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ´ÉÉÊ{ÉºÉ ±ÉäÆ* <x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ½þè, ´É½þ ºÉ®úÉºÉ®ú ¤Éä¤ÉÖÊxÉªÉÉnù ½þè +Éè®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä EòÉä<Ç BäºÉÉ |ÉSÉÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É* =ºÉ ´ÉEiÉ ¨ÉèÆ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ¨ÉäÆ lÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ EÞò¹hÉ ±ÉÉ±É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ : ÊVÉiÉxÉÒ ¤É½þºÉ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉä Eò<Ç <Ç¶ÉÚWÉ +ÉB ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am only reading the procedure.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, RSS has been termed as anti-national only just now. What about that? .. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Any allegations. I am not differentiating them. It applies to anybody who makes allegation. These are the procedures. I just cannot go and deviate the rules framed by the House. Therefore, either Shri George Fernandes may withdraw or substantiate it. It is either of the two. I think any one of them can be opted.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is a very serious matter. It is having a serious implication throughout the country. Please for heaven's sake, do not do that.

SHRI C.K. JAFFER SHARIEF (BANGALORE-NORTH): In view of what hon. Member, Shri Chandra Shekhar has said, let it be expunged.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Why should it be expunged?

SHRI C.K. JAFFER SHARIEF : Let it not be on record. Let us forget and let us not unnecessarily create a kind of situation where we irritate any of the communities.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I request the hon. Minister to withdraw. What is there after all?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Why should it be expunged? .. (Interruptions) Why should it be expunged?

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, what have you to say?

... (Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Many allegations have been made. Will all those be expunged?

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Any allegation should be substantiated. If it is not substantiated, that has to be either withdrawn or the consequences have to be faced.

If it is not substantiated, that has to be withdrawn or the consequences have to be faced.

Are you going to withdraw or not? ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇhb÷ÒWÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ´É½þ Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç {É®ú ®ú½þä, ½þ¨É ºÉ¤ÉÚiÉ {Éä¶É Eò®úäÆMÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : He has to either withdraw it or prove it. Otherwise it has to be expunged. (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I am not withdrawing it. (Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : Then withdraw it. It is not authenticated. If he is not proving it, it cannot be accepted. There is no choice but to withdraw and he is not. There is no choice but to expunge it from the record. ¸ÉÒ EÞò¹hÉ ±ÉÉ±É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ : {ÉÚ®úÒ Êb÷¤Éä]õ ¨ÉäÆ ÊVÉiÉxÉä ¦ÉÒ BäºÉä Ê®ú¨ÉÉEòÇºÉ +ÉªÉä ½þèÆ, ´Éä ºÉ¤É BEºÉ{ÉÆVÉ ÊEòªÉä VÉÉªÉäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, your ruling is being challenged. Either he should prove it or withdraw the allegation. Otherwise, adjourn the House. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇhb÷ÒWÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä iÉlªÉ ®úJÉä ½þèÆ* <iÉxÉÒ Ê¶ÉEòÉªÉiÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ EòÒ VÉÉªÉVÉ ½þè ÊEò ´Éä nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä ±ÉÉxÉä SÉÉÊ½þB* ¨ÉèÆ Eò±É ±Éä +ÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉÚ]õÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : +É{ÉEòÉä nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ {É½þ±Éä ®úJÉxÉä SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇhb÷ÒWÉ : ºÉÉä¨É´ÉÉ®ú EòÉä ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ÊxÉÊ¶SÉiÉ iÉÉè®ú {É®ú ±ÉÉEò®ú nùä nùÚÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +¤nùÖ±É MÉ¢òÚ®ú (MÉÉä{ÉÉ±ÉMÉÆVÉ): ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, BEò SÉÒVÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉÉnù ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ VÉÒ Eòä >ð{É®ú <ºÉÒ ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ, =xxÉÒEÞò¹hÉxÉ VÉÒ ¶ÉÉªÉnù <ºÉÒ VÉMÉ½þ ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB lÉä +Éè®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ Eòä >ð{É®ú SÉÉVÉÇ ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ ÊEò +É{ÉxÉä ¯û{ÉªÉä {ÉèºÉä EòÒ ¥ÉÉ<¤É ±ÉÒ ½þè* ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ =`öä +Éè®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò +É{É SÉÉVÉÇ ±ÉMÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, +É{É <ºÉEòÉä |ÉÚ´É EòÒÊVÉB, ¨ÉèÆ Ê®úVÉÉ<xÉ Eò®ú nùÚÆMÉÉ, +MÉ®ú ªÉ½þ ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¯û{ÉªÉÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ ½þè, xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä +É{É ¦ÉÒ EòÊ½þªÉä ÊEò +É{É ¦ÉÒ Eò®úäÆMÉä* <xÉ¨ÉäÆ ºÉä ÊVÉiÉxÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ, ¤Éc÷ä-¤Éc÷ä ±ÉÉäMÉ =`öEò®ú Eòä Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ, ÊºÉ¨{É±É SÉÒVÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Let Shri George Fernandes resign, go away, if proved that he is wrong. If it is proved, then he -- Shri Sharad Pawar -- should also resign. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I would be guided by experienced people.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : He will prove it. But is Shri Sharad Pawar prepared to resign if it is proved? (Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR: Unless and until he proves it, he cannot bring a reckless charge, though he is habitual for that. But this is no way. He has to withdraw it. And if he is not willing to withdraw, you have to expunge it.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: Very senior members of the House have very rightly said that this was a very sensitive issue and we should deal with this issue in a very responsible manner.

A statement has come from a Minister and it is a statement which is likely to create some problems in the hearts and minds of the people outside and that is why we are trying to deal with it in a proper manner. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇhb÷ÒWÉ : VÉ¤É <ºÉEòÉä <ºiÉä¨ÉÉ±É ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ, iÉ¤É <xÉEòÒ ºÉäÆÊºÉÊ]õÊ´É]õÒ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ? VÉ¤É +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ´ÉÉä]õ ¨ÉÉÆMÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ªÉ½þ ¶É¤nù <ºiÉä¨ÉÉ±É ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ, iÉ¤É +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ ºÉäÆÊºÉÊ]õÊ´É]õÒ Eò½þÉÆ MÉ<Ç lÉÒ? +¦ÉÒ ¤Éc÷ä ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú ½þÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +xÉÆiÉ MÉÆMÉÉ®úÉ¨É MÉÒiÉä : ¶É®únù VÉÒ, +É{É |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉxÉäÆMÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL : We are not trying to create a problem. Let us understand it. If the allegation is serious, it should be substantiated. If the allegation cannot be substantiated, it can be withdrawn. In your judgment if you think that both these things are not possible, then you can expunge it. If it is not done, then the privilege motion can be moved against a Member who has made an allegation and in that privilege motion it has to be proved that some statements were made by the Congress Party or some posters were given by the Congress Party. They were printed at the behest of the Congress Party, then only that statement can be substantiated.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Absolutely.

SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL : We are not trying to create the problem. We are trying to solve the problem. ...(Interruptions). ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ: ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÆVÉÚ®ú ½þè* SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : He has to bring the authenticated statement. Then, only he can make the statement. ...(Interruptions). ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ: ¨ÉèÆ ºÉiªÉ EòÉä EªÉÉäÆ ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ ±ÉÚÆ* SHRI PRITHVIRAJ D. CHAVAN (KARAD): Sir, you have given the ruling and that ruling is being challenged. ...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am going to give a ruling. You please resume your seat. Before me there are only two options.

Number one, as per the rules, it is clear, either the hon. Member or the hon. Minister will have to withdraw it or else I have to expunge it. I am only asking the hon. Minister to withdraw it.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: No, Sir. I am not withdrawing it. Why should I withdraw the proof? ...(Interruptions).

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : Sir, you have given your ruling. ..(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Minister of Home Affairs is on his legs. All senior leaders are here. On such an important matter I want to be guided.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I am not challenging the ruling at all. ...(Interruptions). ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ºÉnùxÉ Eòä {ÉÚ´ÉÇ +vªÉIÉ xÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ Ê´ÉºiÉÉ®ú ºÉä <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ-<ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ {ÉÊ®úÊºlÉÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÉ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ´Éä +ÉìlÉäÆÊ]õEòä]õ Eò®ú ºÉEòäÆ iÉÉä `öÒEò ½þè +Éè®ú xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ºÉEòä iÉÉä =xÉEòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò Ê|ÉÊ´É±ÉäVÉ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉÚ´É ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉBMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ªÉ½þ VÉÉä Ê¶É´É®úÉVÉ VÉÒ xÉä Eò½þÉ ªÉ½þ Ê¤É±EòÖ±É `öÒEò ½þè* =ºÉEòä +xÉÖºÉÉ®ú EòÉªÉÇ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ªÉ½þ {É½þSÉÉxÉ ½þÖ<Ç ÊEò <xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉiªÉ ½þè, ªÉä +ÉVÉ ´É½þ EòÉMÉVÉ ±ÉäEò®ú xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉB ½þèÆ* xÉ]õ´É®úÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ¨ÉèÆxÉä nùäJÉÉ =xÉEòÉä ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉ ®ú½þä lÉä, {ÉÖ®úÉxÉä ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ EòÉä VÉ°ü®ú ªÉÉnù ½þÉäMÉÉ VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ <x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÒ ½þè ´É½þ ¶ÉiÉ-|ÉÊiÉ¶ÉiÉ ºÉ½þÒ ½þè* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, +É{ÉxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò |É¨ÉÉÊhÉiÉ Eò®úäÆ, ´É½þ Eò®úäÆMÉä, ªÉÊnù xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ºÉEòä iÉÉä +É{É ¥ÉÒSÉ +É¡ò Ê|ÉÊ´É±ÉäVÉ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉÉBÆ* SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : In 1984, I was a Member of this House. ...(Interruptions). ¸ÉÒ SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, +MÉ®ú EòÉä<Ç +ÉìlÉäÆÊ]õEòä]õ Eò®úäÆMÉä, ºÉ½þÒ ½þÉäMÉÉ, MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ, ªÉ½þ ¤É½þºÉ ½þ¡iÉä, nùÉä ½þ¡iÉä, ¨É½þÒxÉÉ, nùÉä ¨É½þÒxÉä SÉ±ÉäMÉÒ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä <ºÉÊ±ÉB Eò½þÉ ÊEò ªÉ½þ ¤É½þºÉ ]õ±ÉäMÉÒ iÉÉä <ºÉEòä xÉiÉÒVÉä ¤ÉÖ®úä ½þÉäÆMÉä* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆxÉä VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ VÉÒ ºÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ÊEò <ºÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä EòÉä |ÉäºÉ xÉ Eò®úäÆ +Éè®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä Ê¨ÉjÉÉäÆ ºÉä ¦ÉÒ Eò½þÉ ÊEò ´Éä ¦ÉÒ <ºÉ {É®ú VÉÉä®ú xÉ nùäÆ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉºÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò +É{É +{ÉxÉä +ÊvÉEòÉ®ú EòÉ ={ÉªÉÉäMÉ Eò®úEòä VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ +xÉÖÊSÉiÉ ½þÉä, =ºÉEòÉä BEºÉ{ÉÆVÉ Eò®ú nùäÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ªÉ½þ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ Eòä +ÊvÉEòÉ®ú EòÉ |É¶xÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, ªÉ½þ ®úÉ¹]Å ¨ÉäÆ +¶ÉÉÆÊiÉ ¡òè±ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä ¤Éc÷ä Ê´ÉxÉ©É ¶É¤nùÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè VÉÉVÉÇ VÉÒ EòÖUô nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ ±ÉÉBÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ®ú SÉÒVÉ EòÉä nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉÉäÆ Eòä VÉÊ®úB ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ Eò®úEòä ½þ¨ÉäÆ +Éè®ú +ÊvÉEò ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉBÆ xÉ½þÒÆ JÉc÷Ò Eò®úxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +xÉäEò ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉBÆ ½þèÆ, =x½þÒÆ EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉvÉÉxÉ ½þ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ føÚÆgø {ÉÉiÉä* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É EÞò¹hÉ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ: ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ +xÉÉnù®ú xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉÉ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{ÉEòÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ º¨É®úhÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ÊEò VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò <ºÉ Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè, nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ÊºÉJÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ Eò¦ÉÒ =ºÉEòÉä ¦ÉÚ±ÉäMÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ, =vÉ®ú ¦É±Éä ½þÒ ¦ÉÚ±É VÉÉBÆ* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É EÞò¹hÉ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ: <xÉEòä >ð{É®ú +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè - +ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú : +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ ÊEò VÉÉVÉÇ +ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉä±Éä ½þèÆ* ¨Éä®úä ¦ÉÒ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úä ´ªÉÊEiÉMÉiÉ +xÉÖ¦É´É ½þèÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê¨ÉjÉ, ¸ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ, xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÖ®úÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¦ÉÚ±ÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¦ÉÚ±É VÉÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉºÉä ¦ÉÒ ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ +Éè®ú +É{ÉºÉä xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉVÉÇ ºÉÉ½þ¤É ºÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò ¤É½þÖiÉ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä ¦ÉÚ±É VÉÉxÉÉ ¦ÉÒ Eò¦ÉÒ-Eò¦ÉÒ VÉ°ü®úÒ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* VÉ°ü®úÒ ´ªÉÊEiÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB xÉ½þÒÆ, VÉ°ü®úÒ ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB, VÉ°ü®úÒ nùä¶É Eòä Ê±ÉB, <ºÉÊ±ÉB VÉÉVÉÇ ºÉÉ½þ¤É =ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ¦ÉÚ±É VÉÉªÉäÆ* ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úä +ÉMÉÇªÉÖ¨ÉäÆ]ºÉ =xÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ ½þÉäÆMÉä, EòÉ¡òÒ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ ±ÉÉªÉä ½þÉäÆMÉä, +MÉ®ú BEò nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ 1984 Eòä ®úÉªÉ]ºÉ EòÉ {Éä¶É xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä, iÉÉä =xÉEòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò¨ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉBMÉÒ* |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ): ¨ÉèÆ SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú VÉÒ ºÉä ºÉ½þ¨ÉiÉ ½þÚÆ* Eò¦ÉÒ-Eò¦ÉÒ ºÉ½þ¨ÉiÉ ½þÉä VÉÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: So, I have expunged it. Now Shri George Fernandes may please continue.

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ (Ê¶É´É½þ®ú) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨Éä®úÉ ¦ÉÒ BEò ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ ½þè* +É®úÉä{É-|ÉiªÉÉ®úÉä{É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ¨ÉÖZÉ {É®ú ¦ÉÒ +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉB MÉB ½þèÆ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : VÉÉVÉÇ ºÉÉ½þ¤É Eòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{ÉEòÉä ¨ÉÉèEòÉ nùÚÆMÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : +É{ÉxÉä ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç nùäJÉEò®ú ¨ÉÉèEòÉ nùÚÆMÉÉ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : Eò½þÉÆ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ Ê¨É±ÉÉ, <vÉ®ú ½þÒ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : ½þ¨É Eò½þäÆMÉä, Ê¶É´É¶ÉÆEò®ú VÉÒ uÉ®úÉ EòÖUô +É®úÉä{É ½þèÆ* Ê¶É´É¶ÉÆEò®ú VÉÒ =xÉEòÉä ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ Eò®úäÆ, ... * ½þ¨É =xÉºÉä ®úÒVÉxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉÆMÉäMÉä, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÖZÉ {É®ú ¦ÉÒ +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¨Éä®úä VÉèºÉä UôÉä]õä ´ªÉÊEiÉ EòÒ EòÖUô xÉ EòÖUô ¤ÉÉiÉ º´ÉÒEò®ú EòÊ®úB ªÉÉ =ºÉ +É®úÉä{É EòÉä |ÉÚ´É Eò®úäÆ, ...* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record now.

(Interruptions)** MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let us hear Shri George Fernandes now. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒWÉ: ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ {É®ú <iÉxÉÉ Ê´É´ÉÉnù ½þÉäMÉÉ, ªÉ½þ ¨ÉèxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉÉäSÉÉ lÉÉ* ¨ÉMÉ®ú ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ±ÉÉªÉÉ, ¨Éè <ºÉºÉä ¦ÉÒ {ÉÖ®úÉxÉä <ÊiÉ½þÉºÉ {É®ú VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÉ lÉÉ, 1952 iÉEò VÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÉ lÉÉ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ xÉ½þÒÆ MÉªÉÉ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ VÉÉä Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ BEò xÉEò±ÉÒ ¤É½þºÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè ÊEò ºÉèEªÉÖ±É®ú, xÉÉxÉ-ºÉèEªÉÖ±É®ú ªÉÉ ºÉèEªÉÖ±É®ú, Eò¨ªÉÖxÉ±É, <ºÉ ¤É½þºÉ EòÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨ÉxÉä Eò¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉ±ÉÉªÉÉ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä EòÉ¨É ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ¤ÉnùxÉÉ¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB, nùä¶É Eòä ¦ÉÒiÉ®ú +Éè®ú Ê´É¶´É ¦É®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉnùxÉÉ¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB, ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉÉäSÉÉ ÊEò VÉ®úÉ <xÉEòÉä +É<ÇxÉÉ ÊnùJÉÉ>ðÆ, +{ÉxÉä SÉä½þ®úÉ ªÉä nùäJÉäÆ* =xÉEòÉä nùäJÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ iÉEò±ÉÒ¡ò ½þÉä MÉ<Ç,* SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®úVÉÒ xÉä =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ªÉÉäMÉnùÉxÉ nùä ÊnùªÉÉ +Éè®ú |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉÆ Eò®ú nùÒ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : .. ¨ÉèÆ BEºÉ{ÉÆVÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒWÉ: ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, xÉäiÉÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉÒ nù±É xÉä Eò±É ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ |ÉºiÉÉ´É EòÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þÖB EòÉ¡òÒ ±É¨¤ÉÒ ¤É½þºÉ SÉ±ÉÉ<Ç* EòèºÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +ÉÊlÉÇEò IÉäjÉ ¨ÉäÆ nùä¶É EòÉä ¤É¤ÉÉÇnù Eò®ú ®ú½þÒ ½þè +Éè®ú ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ EòÒ ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉ {É®ú EòÉ¡òÒ ¤ÉÉä±Éä* 21.00 hrs. =ºÉÒ {É®ú +ÉVÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÖVÉÖMÉÇ <xpùVÉÒiÉ VÉÒ xÉä ¦ÉÒ, =ºÉ +ÉÊlÉÇEò xÉÒÊiÉ {É®ú ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤É½þºÉ SÉ±ÉÉ<Ç* ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ <ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä =xÉEòÉ ºÉÆ{ÉÚhÉÇ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉÖxÉÉ lÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¦ÉÒ +ÉÊlÉÇEò xÉÒÊiÉªÉÉäÆ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É EòèºÉä º´Énùä¶ÉÒ ºÉä nùÚ®ú MÉB ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ º´Énùä¶ÉÒ EòÉ ¨ÉVÉÉEò ¦ÉÒ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ, ½þ¨É EòèºÉä +Éi¨ÉÊxÉ¦ÉÇ®úiÉÉ ºÉä nùä¶É EòÉä nùÚ®ú Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =ºÉEòÒ ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç +Éè®ú xÉÒÊiÉªÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨É Eò½þÉÆ {É½þÖÆSÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ =ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +{ÉxÉÒ Ê¶ÉEòÉªÉiÉ EòÒ* ¨ÉÖZÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ÊEò xÉäiÉÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉÒ nù±É EòÉä Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòiÉxÉÒ VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ ½þè* ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB VÉÉä Ê¥É¡ò +ÉiÉÉ ½þè ´É½þ BEò SÉÒVÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ ®úJÉxÉÉ, ªÉ½þ EªÉÉäÆ ¤Égø ®ú½þÒ ½þè, <ºÉä EòèºÉä ___________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair ** Not recorded Ê¨É]õÉªÉÉ VÉÉB, <ºÉ {É®ú ºÉÉäSÉxÉÉ nùÚºÉ®úÒ SÉÒVÉ ½þè* +ÉVÉ Eòä ÊnùxÉ iÉEò Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ Eòä ÊVÉxÉ {Égøä-Ê±ÉJÉä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä xÉÉ¨É B¨{±ÉÉªÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ BEºÉSÉäÆVÉ ¨ÉäÆ nùVÉÇ ½þèÆ =xÉEòÒ ºÉÆJªÉÉ ±ÉMÉ¦ÉMÉ SÉÉ®ú Eò®úÉäc÷ ½þè +Éè®ú <ºÉºÉä iÉÒxÉ MÉÖxÉÉ VªÉÉnùÉ ´Éä ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®ú ½þèÆ ÊVÉxÉEòä xÉÉ¨É B¨{±ÉÉªÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ BEºÉSÉäÆVÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ Ê±ÉJÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ´Éä ¤É½þÖiÉ {Égøä-Ê±ÉJÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* =xÉEòä MÉÉÆ´ÉÉäÆ Eòä xÉVÉnùÒEò B¨{±ÉÉªÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ BEºÉSÉäÆVÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ +ÉVÉ Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ {Égøä-Ê±ÉJÉä SÉÉ®ú Eò®úÉäc÷, Eò¨É {Égøä-Ê±ÉJÉä, ÊEòºÉÒ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ Eò±ÉÉ +{ÉxÉä ½þÉlÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ ®úJÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä 13 Eò®úÉäc÷, ªÉÉxÉÒ +ÉVÉ 17 Eò®úÉäc÷ Eòä ±ÉMÉ¦ÉMÉ +ÉÆEòc÷É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÉäÆ EòÉ ½þè* <ºÉ ºÉÆJªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉgøÉäiiÉ®úÒ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ªÉä ¤ÉgøÉäiiÉ®úÒ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä +ÉxÉä {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ* +É{É 1947 Eòä +ÉÆEòc÷ä ÊxÉEòÉÊ±ÉB, |ÉÊiÉ´É¹ÉÇ ¤ÉgøÉxÉä EòÉ ½þÒ EòÉ¨É SÉ±ÉÉ* ½þ¨É VÉÉä º´Énùä¶ÉÒ +ÉÊnù EòÉªÉÇFò¨É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ®ú½þä, ½þ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉMÉiÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò =xÉ EòÉªÉÇFò¨ÉÉäÆ Eòä SÉ±ÉiÉä ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ <ºÉ ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ {É®ú EòÖUô ½þ±±ÉÉ Eò®ú {ÉÉBÆMÉä* ¨ÉMÉ®ú 1991 ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä +É{ÉxÉä xÉªÉÒ +ÉÊlÉÇEò xÉÒÊiÉ {É®ú ½þºiÉÉIÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä SÉÉ½þä, 1991 ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉÒ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É xÉ ±ÉÉiÉä ½þÖB, =xÉ ÊnùxÉÉäÆ |ÉvÉÉxÉ¨ÉÆjÉÒ, ¸ÉÒ ®úÉ´É VÉÒ lÉä +Éè®ú =xÉEòä Ê´ÉiiÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ b÷É. ¨ÉxÉ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ VÉÒ lÉä, SÉÉ®ú nù¶ÉEòÉäÆ EòÒ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ +ÉÊlÉÇEò xÉÒÊiÉ, {ÉÆÊb÷iÉ xÉä½þ°ü EòÉ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +ÉètÉäÊMÉEò xÉÒÊiÉ {É®ú ®úJÉÉ ½þÖ+É ´É½þ |ÉºiÉÉ´É, <xÉ ºÉÉ®úÒ xÉÒÊiÉªÉÉäÆ {É®ú Ê´ÉSÉÉ®ú B´ÉÆ ¤É½þºÉ ÊEòB ¤ÉMÉè®ú, ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÉ ´ÉÉnù-Ê´É´ÉÉnù SÉ±ÉÉB ¤ÉMÉè®ú +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä BEò ÊnùxÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉÒÊiÉ EòÉ Bä±ÉÉxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ +Éè®ú ´É½þ xÉÒÊiÉ +ÉMÉä VÉÉEò®ú b÷É=xÉ ]õä±É ½þÉä MÉ<Ç* ´É½þ ÊEòºÉ SÉÒVÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖ<Ç, "=°üM´Éä ®úÉ=Æb÷ ¨ÉäÆ"* Ê¡ò®ú ¨ÉÉ®úÉEòä¶É +ÉªÉÉ, =ºÉ {É®ú ½þºiÉÉIÉ®ú ½þÉä MÉB* ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉÉnù ½þè ½þ¨ÉxÉä =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ¦ÉÒiÉ®ú +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉ½þ®ú nùä¶É Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä +ÉMÉÉ½þ Eò®úiÉä ½þÖB Eò½þÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú Ê´É¶Éä¹ÉEò®ú nùä¶É Eòä ¨ÉVÉnùÚ®ú +ÉÆnùÉä±ÉxÉ EòÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä ½þÉlÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ +É`ö-nùºÉ ¨É½þÒxÉä <ºÉ xÉÒÊiÉ EòÉä Ê¨É]õÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉÉEòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ½þÉä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä nùä¶É EòÒ +ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ {ÉÒÊgøªÉÉäÆ EòÉä +{ÉxÉä nùä¶É EòÒ +ÉÊlÉÇEò ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ EòÉä `öÒEò Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ±Éc÷xÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ +Éè®ú ¨ÉÉ®úÉEòä¶É ¨ÉäÆ +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä Eòènù Eò®úEòä Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ iÉÉEòiÉÉäÆ Eòä ½þÉlÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ nùä ÊnùªÉÉ* +ÉVÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ ½þÉäÆ, <xpùVÉÒiÉ VÉÒ EòÉ <ºÉ {É®ú VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ½þÉä* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ VÉ¤É®únùºiÉ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ EòÉ ºÉÖxÉÉ lÉÉ iÉlÉÉ +xªÉ ±ÉÉäMÉ ¦ÉÒ <ºÉ {É®ú ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò EòèºÉä +ÉÊlÉÇEò xÉÒÊiÉ Ê¤ÉMÉc÷Ò, EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ* ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ Ê¤ÉMÉÉc÷Ò* ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ BEò ¨ÉÉªÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ EòènùJÉÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä Eòènù Eò®úEòä ®úJÉxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É +É{ÉxÉä 1991 ºÉä ¶ÉÖ¯û ÊEòªÉÉ +Éè®ú VÉ¤É 1994 ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÉ®úÉEòä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ½þºiÉÉIÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ iÉ¤É iÉÉä +É{ÉxÉä ºÉ¤É Eòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éäc÷Ò b÷É±É nùÒ* ½þ¨É +ÉVÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÊ±Eò BEò +ºÉÇä ºÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨É VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ iÉÉEòiÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÒÊ¨ÉiÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉä Ê±ÉB xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<B, +É{ÉEòä xÉäiÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±É SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò xÉÒÊiÉ, Ê±ÉÊJÉiÉ xÉÒÊiÉ, ¤ÉÉä±ÉÒ EòÒ xÉÒÊiÉ +Éè®ú ´ªÉ´É½þÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ, ªÉ½þ ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +É VÉÉB* {É½þ±Éä ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ EòÉä ®úJÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ ÊVÉºÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É ½þè, Manifesto of the Left Parties for Lok Sabha Elections 1998, Part-2, For an Alternative Economic Policy.

It says:

"The policies ushered in in the name of economic reforms since 1991 have only worsened the situation." VÉèºÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉEòÉ YÉÉxÉ ½þè ´ÉèºÉä ½þÒ +É{ÉEòä xÉäiÉÉ+ÉäÆ +Éè®ú Ê±ÉJÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÉä <ºÉEòÉ YÉÉxÉ ½þè* It further says:

"Liberalisation has meant a bonanza for the big business houses, landlords, financial speculators and big traders who make super profits and accumulate huge incomes. Under the IMF, World Bank dictated model, the priorities for India's economic growth are determined not in the interests of Indian people but for narrow affluent section at home and foreign capitalists. By these policies, 10 per cent of the population have enriched themselves at the expense of the remaining 90 per cent of the people." +¤É ªÉ½þ ½þè ºÉ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ +Éè®ú +¤É VÉ®úÉ MÉ±ÉiÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ nùäÊJÉªÉä* ¨Éä®úä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ BEò +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú EòÉ Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ ½þè ÊVÉºÉEòÉä ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùÉ +{ÉxÉÒ VÉä¤É ¨ÉäÆ ®úJÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ iÉ¤É EòÉ¨É +ÉiÉÉ ½þè VÉ¤É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÒ EòlÉxÉÒ +Éè®ú Eò®úxÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ +ÆiÉ®ú +ÉiÉÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ¡ò]õ MÉªÉÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ <ºÉEòÒ ¡òÉä]õÉä EòÉì{ÉÒ ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ nùä¶É +Éè®ú nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÉ±É ¦É®ú ºÉä +ÉiÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆxÉä <ºÉEòÉä ÊºÉiÉ¨¤É®ú ¨É½þÒxÉä Eòä Ê½þÆnùÚ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú ºÉä EòÉ]õÉ lÉÉ* <ºÉEòÉ ]õÉ<]õ±É ½þè, ` Looking for Power?' -- not political power which has eluded you, and will elude you. The advertisement reads:

"While there is a near famine of power elsewhere, West Bengal is an oasis.

Looking for an ideal location? We are closer to South-East Asia, the Pacific Rim and Japan than any other State. You even have Indian Airlines flights to Yangon, Bangkok and Singapore.

Looking for world-class company? Ours is the State that's the chosen location of such international giants as Siemens, Philips, ICI, Motorola, Sumitomo, Matsushita, Rolls Royce, ABB Lummus Global Inc., Price Waterhouse, Itochu, Toyo Engineering Corpn., Mitsubishi, Isuzu, Caltex, Marubeni, George Soros, Pepsi, BOC, Bechtel, General Electric, IBM, Alcoa International, UNOCAL, ITW Signode India Ltd., Lurgi, BASF, Institute Francais du Petrole, Bio-Mass Systems Inc., Arthur D. Little, Deutsche Babcock, Vesuvius, Davy, Daelim, Cheung Chi Hi, Tong Sun, Telecom Malaysia and Telstra -- a veritable who's who of the corporate world.

Looking for a dynamic State? Fast-improving infrastructure, a dynamic rural economy, a resurgent industrial scenario, a politically stable climate, an abundance of skilled and qualified manpower -- it's all there, waiting for you. Come to West Bengal. The possibilities are electrifying.

SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : We have not surrendered, you have surrendered. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI SUNIL KHAN (DURGAPUR): What is the industrial growth in the last one year. ...(Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒWÉ: ¨Éä®úÒ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉiÉÉ ÊEò ªÉä EªÉÉäÆ ÊSÉ±±ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, EªÉÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉBMÉÉ? ªÉ½þ Ê´ÉYÉÉ{ÉxÉ ½þè The West Bengal Industrial Development Corporation is a Government of West Bengal enterprise whose Chairman is Shri Somnath Chatterjee, I think. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : We welcome it. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : Ê¡ò®ú ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ {É®ú ¦ÉÒ SÉSÉÉÇ <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÊ®úB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Yes, we want. But don't make these noises that you keep on making. That is all that I am telling.... (Interruptions) ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä Eò]õPÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ®úJÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É EòÉä JÉi¨É ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB* +É{É <ºÉä º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú EòÊ®úB, ÊSÉÆiÉÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÊ®úB +Éè®ú Eò¤ÉÚ±É EòÊ®úB* SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA :We are not surrendering like that.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: You wanted a world class company here.

SHRI N. JANARDHANA REDDY (BAPATLA): What is wrong in that advertisement? Why do you accuse?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Nothing.... (Interruptions) ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉ {É®ú EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊEò EªÉÉ MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þè? ¨ÉèÆ <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò EòlÉxÉÒ +Éè®ú Eò®úxÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ +xiÉ®ú EòÉä JÉi¨É ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB* SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : You explain your stand.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: You will have to wait for that, Shri Basu Deb Acharia. ... (Interruptions) ¨ÉèÆxÉä <ºÉÊ±ÉB <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò nùä¶É EòÒ +ÉÊlÉÇEò xÉÒÊiÉªÉÉäÆ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú ¦ÉÉ®úÒ Eò¶É¨ÉEò¶É ½þè* BEò xÉÒÊiÉ 1991 ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉxÉÒ lÉÒ* ´É½þ xÉÒÊiÉ ½þ¨É ºÉ¤É EòÉä ºÉiÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É Eòä +xnù®ú ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù (¨ÉvÉä{ÉÖ®úÉ) : ¨Éä®úÉ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú ½þè* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ÊEòºÉ °ü±É Eòä +xiÉMÉÇiÉ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú ½þè? ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ¨Éä®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÖxÉÒ VÉÉB* ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä E±ÉèÊ®úÊ¡òEòä¶ÉxÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) I am on a point of order. I am a Member of Parliament. I want certain clarification from our great socialist leader, Shri George Fernandes.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Are you yielding to him? ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : ªÉ½þ BEò PÉÆ]õÉ ¤ÉÉä±Éä* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¤Éc÷ä ¨ÉVÉä ºÉä <xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉÖxÉÒ* ... ¨ÉèÆxÉä <x½þäÆ ]õÉäEòÉ xÉ½þÒÆ* ¨ÉÖZÉä +¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä nùÒÊVÉB* (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ ºÉÖxÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨É ]õÉäEò xÉ½þÒÆ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* nùä¶É +Éè®ú Ê´Énùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉÉäMÉ nùäJÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þÉÆ EªÉÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè? ¨ÉèÆ <xÉºÉä BEò E±ÉèÊ®úÊ¡òEòä¶ÉxÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò±É ¦ÉÒ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò +É{É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä MÉÖ¯û ½þèÆ* ½þ¨É BEò ½þÒ ºEòÚ±É Eòä Ê´ÉtÉlÉÒÇ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* nùä¶É +Éè®ú Ê´Énùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éè`ö ±ÉÉäMÉ VÉÉxÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò +É{ÉxÉä ÊVÉºÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ´ÉÉnù EòÉ {ÉÉ`ö ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä {ÉgøÉªÉÉ lÉÉ, EòÉèxÉ ºÉÉ EòÉ®úhÉ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ EòÒ ´ÉVÉ½þ ºÉä +É{É ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. EòÒ ZÉÉä±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉEò®ú ¤Éè`ö MÉB ½þèÆ? ´É½þ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Whenever there is a debate on serious matters, the occasion needs some comic and relief and Shri Lalu Prasad invariably provides that comic and relief. I think the House will be grateful to him for it. ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +É{ÉEòä Ê´É¹ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ `{ÉÉÆSÉVÉxªÉ' xÉä EªÉÉ Ê±ÉJÉÉ lÉÉ? ´É½þ ¨ÉÆMÉÉªÉÉ VÉÉB* 1979 ¨ÉäÆ BEò ºÉÒÊxÉªÉ®ú ¨Éè¨¤É®ú xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, +É{É ´É½þ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ªÉ½þ ]õÉäEòÉ-]õÉEòÒ EªÉÉäÆ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉºÉÖnùä´É +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ : 1979 ¨ÉäÆ <x½þÉäÆxÉä +]õ±É VÉÒ +Éè®ú +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, ´É½þ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉiÉÉBÆ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: How long will we sit like this? 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"We are committed to establish a civilized, humane and just civil order that which does not discriminate on grounds of caste, religion, class, colour, race or sex. We will truly and genuinely uphold and practise the concept of secularism consistent with the Indian traditional sarva panth samadar, equal respect for all faiths and on the basis of equality of all. We are committed to the economic and educational development of the minorities and will take effective steps in this regard." ªÉ½þ ½þè xÉÒÊiÉ, ªÉ½þ ½þè ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ EòÉªÉÇFò¨É* ¨ÉÖZÉä JÉÖ¶ÉÒ ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉ <ºÉ EòÉªÉÇFò¨É EòÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ xÉä {ÉgøEò®ú ºÉÖxÉÉªÉÉ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB {ÉgøEò®ú ºÉÖxÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ÊVÉºÉ EòÉ¨É ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ ±ÉMÉä ½þÖB ½þèÆ =ºÉ Eòä {ÉÒUôä EòÖUô `öÉäºÉ +Éè®ú ºÉ¨ÉªÉ¤Ér EòÉªÉÇFò¨É ½þèÆ +Éè®ú BEò ºÉÉ±É BEò ¨É½þÒxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ÊVÉiÉxÉÉ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ lÉÉ, =ºÉ {É®ú +¨É±É Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ +Éè®ú iÉÒxÉ ºÉÉ±É +Éè®ú MªÉÉ®ú½þ ¨É½þÒxÉä ¤ÉÉEòÒ ½þèÆ* ´É½þ EòÉªÉÇ ¦ÉÒ `öÒEò føÆMÉ ºÉä {ÉÚ®úÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉBMÉÉ ªÉ½þ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¦ÉÒ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ EòÉä, {ÉÚ®úä ºÉnùxÉ EòÉä +Éè®ú ºÉ¨ÉÚSÉä nùä¶É EòÉä º{É¹]õ føÆMÉ ºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ÊEò BEò PÉÆ]õä ¨ÉäÆ ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ Ê´ÉEò±{É iÉèªÉÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ* Ê¡ò®ú ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ÊEò BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ iÉèªÉÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ* VÉ¤É Ê¤É½þÉ®ú EòÉ VÉÉnùÚ SÉ±ÉäMÉÉ iÉÉä BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¤É EòÖUô ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú* ½þ¨É VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò EòèºÉä +É{É BEò nùÚºÉ®úä Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ªÉ½þ ºÉ¤É Eò®úxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäWÉ ½þè ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ EòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.+É<Ç.(B¨É) EòÉ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É : +É{É +SUôÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä lÉä EªÉÉäÆ ªÉ½þ ºÉ¤É {ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ? ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒWÉ : =ºÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ºÉÖxÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB, ºÉ¨ÉZÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* VÉ¤É ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉEò®ú +É{É ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`ö VÉÉBÆMÉä iÉÉä ½þ¨É ´É½þÉÆ ¤Éè`ö VÉÉBÆMÉä, +É{É ªÉ½þÒ Eò±{ÉxÉÉ ±ÉäEò®ú ¤Éè`öä ½þÉäÆMÉä* iÉ¤É iÉÉä ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ¦ÉÒ ½þÉäÆMÉä* <ºÉÊ±ÉB EòÖUô iÉÉä ®úäEòÉb÷Ç ®úJÉEò®ú SÉ±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* "The Congress (I) Government has become synonymous with the loot of public funds. The economic policies adopted by the Congress Government have been nakedly pro-rich and beneficial to big business and foreign capital. Corruption has become a way of life for the ruling Congress party in running the Administration. This deprives the common people of their legitimate right as the power of money is used to convert Government policies for private gain. The Ruling party is bent upon shielding the guilty in the Bofors kickbacks case. The Congress (I) Government is losing mass support because of its economic policies, compromise with communal forces, failure to cement national unity and its rank corruption." ªÉ½þ 5 ºÉä 11 iÉEò Eò±ÉEòiiÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖ+É* ´É½þÉÆ +É{ÉxÉä xÉÒÊiÉ ´ÉEiÉ´ªÉ iÉªÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉä ºÉ¨ÉÊ{ÉÇiÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÉEòÇºÉ´ÉÉÊnùªÉÉäÆ EòÉ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäWÉ ½þè* "The Congress party which was increasingly worried about the investigations into corruption of its top leaders intervened and withdrew support to the Deve Gowda Government and demanded his ouster as a price for continuing support. The United Front Government fell because of the unjustified withdrawal of support by the Congress using the pretext of the interim report of the Jain Commission. The seven year - 1991-97 - period following IMF, World Bank prescriptions have been a period of unremitting deterioration in the living conditions of the ordinary people particularly the rural poor."

"The percentage of people living below the poverty line rose from 34.3 in 1989-90 to 39.6 in 1994-95. Sixteen per cent of the rural population have access to less than Rs.3 per day. The real wages of agricultural labourers fell during the 1991-95 period. Per capita availability of pulses declined from 41.6 gms. in 1991 to 34 gms. in 1996....The Congress party's continuous decline is due to its adherence to the liberalisation policy dictated by the IMF-World Bank; its record of compromise with the communal forces resulting in the alienation of minorities; and it being corroded by high level corruption." ªÉ½þ <xÉEòÉ {ÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, ªÉ½þ Ê{ÉUô±Éä ¨É½þÒxÉä 5 +E]õÚ¤É®ú ºÉä 11 iÉÉ®úÒJÉ iÉEò EòÉ EòÖUô ½þÒ ¨É½þÒxÉä {É½þ±Éä EòÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É ½þè* Eò±ÉEòiiÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ +ÊvÉ´Éä¶ÉxÉ ½þÖ+É, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòä uÉ®úÉ {ÉÉÊ®úiÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þÖ+É |ÉºiÉÉ´É ½þè* SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : What did he say about the BJP? You should refer to that also. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉìVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ: ´É½þ `öÒEò ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. Eòä ºÉÉlÉ +É{É Ê¨É±ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þÉä, =xÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ +É{É Ê®ú¶iÉÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉºÉÖnùä´É +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ : +É{ÉEòÉä ºÉiiÉÉ ºÉä ½þ]õÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, you started at 1955 hours.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: When was I allowed to speak?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is true, but I am helpless. Five more Ministers, two former Prime Ministers and other Members have also to participate.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I will not take much time. ¨ÉèÆ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉä +Éè®ú VªÉÉnùÉ ºÉÖxÉÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þÚÆMÉÉ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) BEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ: <xÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè, ¤ÉÉEòÒ EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä nùäxÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* =xÉEòÒ ºÉnùºªÉ ºÉÆJªÉÉ ¦ÉÒ =iÉxÉÒ ½þè ÊVÉiÉxÉÒ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ½þè* ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÉ, ªÉ½þ +É{ÉEòÉ +xªÉÉªÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +¤É +É{ÉEòÉä EòÉ¡òÒ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè, +¤É +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<ªÉä* +É{ÉEòÉä BEò PÉÆ]õä ºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É ¦ÉÉMÉ´ÉiÉ {ÉÖ®úÉhÉ {Égø ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ VÉÉìVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ VªÉÉnùÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÚÆMÉÉ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É lÉÉäc÷É ¶ÉÉÆiÉ ®úÊ½þªÉä, ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä ]õÉ<¨É Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ, ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* +¦ÉÒ {ÉÉÆSÉ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õºÉÇ +Éè®ú ½þèÆ* SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: I will finish my speech in a few minutes' time. ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò =xÉEòÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ Ê®ú¶iÉÉ VÉÉäc÷xÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò<Ç ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ºÉä SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè* <vÉ®ú ºÉä =vÉ®ú ½þÉä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú <xÉEòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä xÉäiÉÉ iÉÉä =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷ä VÉÉäc÷ Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ´ªÉÊEiÉ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò <xÉ ºÉ¤É SÉÒVÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä EòÖUô ¤ÉÉiÉä ®úJÉÚÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ºÉ¨ÉªÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÚÆMÉÉ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. xÉä VÉÉä ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉ nùÉä EòÉ®úhÉÉäÆ ºÉä º´ÉÉMÉiÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ´ÉèºÉä ¦ÉÒ +®úºÉä ºÉä {ÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ Ê®ú¶iÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú <¨É®úVÉäxºÉÒ Eòä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¸ÉÒ Eò¯ûhÉÉÊxÉÊvÉ xÉä VÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¨Énùnù EòÒ lÉÒ, VÉ¤É iÉEò ½þ¨É ÊVÉÆnùÉ ®ú½þäÆMÉä, iÉ¤É iÉEò ½þ¨É =ºÉä ¦ÉÚ±É xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉEòiÉä* +{ÉxÉä |Énùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÖZÉä =x½þÉäÆxÉä EòÖUô BäºÉÒ VÉMÉ½þäÆ ®ú½þxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB nùÒ lÉÒÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä {ÉÚ®úä +ÉÆnùÉä±ÉxÉ EòÉä =x½þÉäÆxÉä =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ EòÉ¡òÒ ¨Énùnù EòÒ lÉÒ +Éè®ú +ÆiÉ ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉEòÒ EòÒ¨ÉiÉ =x½þäÆ SÉÖEòÉxÉÒ {Éc÷Ò, <¨É®úVÉäxºÉÒ Eòä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ =xÉEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ½þ]õÉ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ lÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) are ungrateful. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉìVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : ¨ÉèÆxÉä nùÉä ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ* nùÚºÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò ÊVÉºÉ nù±É Eòä ºÉÉlÉ EòÖUôäEò nùÉäºiÉÉxÉÉ Ê®ú¶iÉä ´É½þ ®úJÉiÉä ®ú½þä, ÊVÉºÉ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ´É½þ nùÉäºiÉÉxÉÉ Ê®ú¶iÉä ®úJÉiÉä ®ú½þä, ½þ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉºÉä ¤Éc÷Ò {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉÒ lÉÒ* {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉÒ <ºÉÊ±ÉB lÉÒ ÊEò <ºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä ºÉÉäSÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ºÉÉäSÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þÒ MÉÆnùÒ lÉÒ, ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þÒ MÉ±ÉiÉ lÉÒ* =xÉEòä 1998 Eòä Ê{ÉUô±Éä SÉÖxÉÉ´É PÉÉä¹ÉhÉÉ {ÉjÉ ¨ÉäÆ b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÉ lÉÉ:

"Without the support and assistance the LTTE received from the DMK led Government and a section of the DMK leadership, Rajiv Gandhi could not have been killed." ½þ¨ÉxÉä nùäJÉÉ ÊEò Ê{ÉUô±Éä EòÖUô ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ºÉä MÉ±Éä Ê¨É±ÉxÉä EòÉ |ÉªÉÉºÉ ¦ÉÒ VÉÉ®úÒ ®ú½þÉ* ¨ÉMÉ®ú =ºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòÒ ªÉ½þ ®úÉªÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè* <ºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä xÉÉ¨É EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú +É{ÉxÉä =xÉEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ¦ÉÒ ÊMÉ®úÉxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ* <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉÖZÉä JÉÖ¶ÉÒ ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉ =xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¦ÉÒ =ºÉ nù±É ºÉä ¨ÉÖÊEiÉ {ÉÉ<Ç ½þè VÉÉä +{ÉxÉä EòÉªÉÇ Eòä Ê±ÉB =xÉEòÉä ºÉÉlÉ ¦ÉÒ ±Éä VÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =xÉEòÉä ½þ¨Éä¶ÉÉ Eò]õPÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ®úJÉxÉä EòÉ |ÉªÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨ÉäÆ JÉÖ¶ÉÒ ½þè ÊEò BEò ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉ EòÉä EòÖUô ½þnù iÉEò +É{ÉEòä <ºÉ |ÉªÉÉäMÉ Eòä SÉ±ÉiÉä ªÉÉ <ºÉ |ÉªÉÉºÉ Eòä SÉ±ÉiÉä nùÚ®ú Eò®úxÉä ¨ÉäÆ +É{É ¦ÉÒ EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ½þÉä MÉªÉä +Éè®ú ½þ¨É ¦ÉÒ EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ½þÉä MÉªÉä* EòÖUô ¨ÉÉ¨É±Éä ½þèÆ VÉÉä ®úÉ¹]ÅÒªÉ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ +Éè®ú ¨Éä®úä ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ ºÉä VÉÖc÷ä ½þÖB ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ {É½þ±Éä ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ Eò½þÚÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉ½þ +¡òºÉÉäºÉ ½þÖ+É VÉ¤É nùÉä-iÉÒxÉ ®úÉäVÉ {É½þ±Éä +ÊMxÉ EòÉ {É®úÒIÉhÉ ½þÖ+É +Éè®ú EòÖUô BäºÉä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉÉiÉ +ÉªÉä, Ê´É¶Éä¹ÉEò®ú ´ÉÉ¨É{ÉÆlÉÒ nù±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä, VÉÉä xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉxÉä SÉÉÊ½þB lÉä* ¸ÉÒ VªÉÉäÊiÉ ¤ÉºÉÖ EòÒ ½þ¨É ¤É½þÖiÉ <VVÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, I want to seek a clarification.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, are you yielding?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : Sir, I am not yielding. Sir, you reminded me of my time. I am sure that 50 per cent of my time has been taken by this kind of interruptions. I have not been allowed to speak... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, +É{É <xÉºÉä EòÉä<Ç ÊxÉªÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉÚUôiÉä VÉ¤ÉÊEò ½þ¨ÉºÉä ÊxÉªÉ¨É {ÉÚUôiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ +SUôÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He is seeking some clarification.

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, I want to seek a clarification. In the leaders meeting where the hon. Speaker was in the Chair, it was decided that the voting would take place tomorrow at 12 o'clock. That means the hon. Prime Minister will reply tomorrow at 11 o'clock. I understand that there are a number of speakers from various parties. There are two more speakers from my party also. I would like to submit that we should adhere to some time limit. Or else are you deciding that we will sit beyond 12 o'clock in the night? Sir, I want your ruling.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: In the morning, the hon. Speaker mentioned here that since at 11 o'clock the Prime Minister will be replying and the voting will take place at 12 noon, we will be sitting and exhausting the list. Now, I do not know whether it is beyond 12 or not. I request the hon. Members to cooperate because most of the time <ºÉ ]õÉäEòÉ-]õÉEòÒ ¨ÉäÆ SÉ±ÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* Therefore, I think we will be in a position to complete the list provided we hear each other peacefully.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): Sir, the problem is that the small parties will not get time.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I can assure you that you will get time. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒWÉ: ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éc÷Ò {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç VÉ¤É VªÉÉäÊiÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ xÉä +ÊMxÉ {É®úÒIÉhÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô BäºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò½þÒÆ* ®úÉ¹]Å EòÉ ¨É½þÉx EòÉªÉÇ, VÉÉä ®úÉ¹]Å EòÒ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ VÉÖc÷É ½þÖ+É ½þè, =x½þÉäÆxÉä =ºÉEòÒ vÉVVÉÒ =c÷ÉxÉä EòÉ ªÉ½þ Eò½þEò®ú |ÉªÉÉºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ÊEò ªÉ½þ {ÉÉä±ÉÒÊ]õEò±É º]õÆ]õ ½þè +Éè®ú Ê®úb÷ÒEòÖ±ÉºÉ SÉÒVÉ ½þè* ¨Éä®úä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉèÆ]ÅÒ º]õèÆÊb÷ÆMÉ Eò¨Éä]õÒ EòÒ 2-3 ¨É½þÒxÉä {É½þ±Éä EòÒ Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉ BEò {Éè®úÉOÉÉ¡ò {ÉgøEò®ú ºÉÖxÉÉ>ðÆMÉÉ* "The Committee welcome the clearance of the extended range version of AGNI missile system by the Government. Pakistan continues its missile development programme which is primarily aimed against India. Recently, after the nuclear explosions carried out by India and Pakistan, Pakistan even reportedly claimed to have had their missiles targeted at Indian sites. China has also developed a large number of missile systems which can target any part of our country against which we have no credible missile deterrent.

The Committee are of the view that the Government should go ahead full steam in a time-bound manner to develop full range of missiles in addition to the variants of AGNI currently under development as a deterrent to potential enemies from using their ballistic missile capability against any of our assets." ªÉ½þ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ EòÒ ÊºÉ¡òÉÊ®ú¶É ½þè* ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ EòÉªÉÇ ®ú½þÉ, ®úÉ¹]Å EòÒ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ xÉä ÊVÉºÉ °ü{É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉ, =ºÉä ¨ÉqäxÉVÉ®ú ®úJÉEò®ú ´É½þ |ÉªÉÉäMÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ÊVÉºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú Eòä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉÉiÉ +ÉB, ´Éä xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉxÉä SÉÉÊ½þB lÉä* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É¶Éä¹ÉEò®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ xÉä +Éè®ú ]õè±ÉÒÊ´ÉVÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ nùÒ ½þÖ<Ç ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉEòÉiÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÖ<Ç +Éè®ú xÉä´ÉÒ Eòä ¨ÉÖÊJÉªÉÉ EòÉä ½þ]õÉxÉä EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÖ<Ç* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê¨ÉjÉ ¸ÉÒ {ÉÖhÉÉäÇ ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ +¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò Defence Minister has gone on the defensive. ¨ÉèÆ iÉÒxÉ ¨É½þÒxÉä SÉÖ{É ®ú½þÉ* ¨ÉèÆ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò BEò Bä¡òÒb÷èÊ´É]õ ¦ÉÒ nùä¶É¦É®ú ¨ÉäÆ SÉ±ÉÉ* =ºÉä +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ xÉä JÉÚ¤É UôÉ{ÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä EòÉªÉÇ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ EòÖUô +ÉªÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨É SÉÖ{É ®ú½þä* ½þ¨É iÉÒxÉ ¨É½þÒxÉä iÉEò BEò ¶É¤nù xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±Éä* ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ Eòä +vªÉIÉ xÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ BEò ¤Éè`öEò ¤ÉÖ±ÉÉ<Ç lÉÒ* =ºÉ ¤Éè`öEò ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ Ê´ÉSÉÉ®ú-Ê´É¨É¶ÉÇ ½þÖ+É ÊEò ½þ¨É ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þºÉ Eò®úäÆMÉä, VÉÉä +É®úÉä{É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä >ð{É®ú ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤É½þºÉ ½þÉä VÉÉB* ½þ¨É =ºÉ ¤É½þºÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ®ú½þä* Ê¡ò®ú º{ÉÒEò®ú ºÉÉ½þ¤É Eòä Eò¨É®úä Eòä ¤ÉMÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ EòÉìx£òèÆºÉ ½þÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ iÉÒxÉ ¨ÉÒÊ]õÆMÉ ½þÖ<Ç* ´É½þÉÆ ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨ÉxÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Eò<Ç ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ EòÒ ªÉ½þ ®úÉªÉ ®ú½þÒ ÊEò VÉ¤É ¤ÉVÉ]õ ºÉè¶ÉxÉ EòÉ nùÚºÉ®úÉ Ê½þººÉÉ ¶ÉÖ¯û ½þÉäMÉÉ, iÉ¤É ¤É½þºÉ ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ¨ÉèÆxÉä =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Uôäc÷Ò, ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ®úÉäVÉ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®úÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ +É ®ú½þÉ ½þè, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò <iÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÒ VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ, <iÉxÉä MÉ±ÉiÉ <±WÉÉ¨É ±ÉMÉÉB VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ½þ¨É ¤ÉnùxÉÉ¨É ½þÉäÆ, ¨ÉÖZÉä EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þÒÆ ¦ÉÒ, Eò¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉ¤É <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ, ®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ {É®ú +É ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ, =xÉEòÒ <Ç¨ÉÉxÉnùÉ®úÒ, =xÉEòä EòÉ¨É, <xÉ ºÉ¤É SÉÒVÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ SÉÖxÉÉèiÉÒ nùÒ VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè iÉÉä nùä¶É EòÒ ºÉÒ¨ÉÉ+ÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä VÉ´ÉÉxÉ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ, Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ iÉÒxÉÉäÆ ºÉäxÉÉ+ÉäÆ lÉ±É ºÉäxÉÉ, ´ÉÉªÉÖ ºÉäxÉÉ +Éè®ú xÉÉè ºÉäxÉÉ Eòä VÉ´ÉÉxÉ +ÊvÉEòÉ®úÒ VÉ½þÉÆ-VÉ½þÉÆ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòä ¨ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¶ÉÆEòÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ ÊxÉ¨ÉÉÇhÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè +Éè®ú <ºÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäxÉÉ ¨Éä®úä Ê±ÉB +ÊxÉ´ÉÉªÉÇ ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÉ* ´É½þÉÆ {É®ú +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ EòÒ ¨ÉÉèVÉÚnùMÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ xÉäiÉÉ+ÉäÆ xÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò +É{É ºÉÉ´ÉÇÊVÉEò ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ, +É{É ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ, VÉ½þÉÆ, VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ]õxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB, ªÉÊnù +É{ÉEòÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä +É{É Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* =ºÉ <VÉÉVÉiÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨ÉxÉä <ÆiÉVÉÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉ¤É nùäJÉÉ ÊEò nùÚºÉ®úÉäÆ EòÒ +Éä®ú ºÉä ®úÉäEòÉ xÉ½þÒÆ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ºÉÉ´ÉÇVÉÊxÉEò VÉÉxÉÉ {Éc÷É* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ½þÉlÉ =`öÉEò®ú ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ B.b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. 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´É½þÉÆ =ºÉEòÒ {É®úÒIÉÉ ±ÉäxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB MÉªÉä ½þÖB ºÉäxÉÉ Eòä +ÊvÉEòÉ®úÒ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ½þ¨É ®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉxÉä Eòä {É½þ±Éä MÉªÉä ½þÖB ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ EªÉÉ-EªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉ±ÉÉ ½þè* +ÉVÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú +¦ÉÒ VÉ¤É ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ iÉÉä BEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ, ¨Éä®úä JªÉÉ±É ºÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Ê¶É´É¶ÉÆEò®ú VÉÒ xÉä ¶ÉÉªÉnù SÉ±ÉÉ<Ç, ÊVÉºÉEòä >ð{É®ú ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú =ºÉEòÉ JÉÆb÷xÉ ½þÖ+É, ´É½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ lÉÒ ÊEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉ¤É +Æb÷¨ÉÉxÉ ÊxÉEòÉä¤ÉÉ®ú MÉªÉä lÉä, iÉ¤É ´Éä ÊEòºÉEòä ¨Éä½þ¨ÉÉxÉ ®ú½þä* ½þ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ Eòä ¨Éä½þ¨ÉÉxÉ ®ú½þä, ½þ®úäxpù ÊºÉÆ½þ ¡òÉälÉÇ ]õÉ<¨É Eòä Eò¨ÉÉÆb÷®ú lÉä, |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ +{ÉxÉä EòÉªÉÇ Eòä Ê±ÉB MÉªÉä lÉä, |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ nùä¶É EòÒ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ Eò¨Éä]õÒ Eòä +vªÉIÉ ¨ÉÉjÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, nùä¶É Eòä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú =xÉEòÉä ±ÉäxÉä ´É½þÉÆ VÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ º]ÅÉ<{b÷ ºÉÊ´ÉÇºÉ EòÉ VÉÉä ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ¤Éc÷É EòÉ¨É ½þè, ´É½þ =ºÉEòÉ EòÉ¨É ½þè iÉÉä =x½þÉäÆxÉä =xÉEòÉ º´ÉÉMÉiÉ ÊEòªÉÉ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ nùä¶É ¦É®ú ¨ÉäÆ SÉ±ÉÉ ½þè, ®úÉäVÉ SÉ±ÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú =ºÉ ´ªÉÊEiÉ ºÉä SÉ±ÉÉ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉEòÒ MÉ´ÉÉ½þÒ ±ÉäEò®ú ¨ÉÖZÉEòÉä <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò`öPÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ®úJÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ¨ÉMÉ®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ SÉ±ÉÉ<Ç +Éè®ú +MÉ®ú ½þ¨ÉxÉä =ºÉEòÉä EòÉ]õ ÊnùªÉÉ iÉÉä =ºÉä Eò½þÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò iÉÖ¨É {ÉÊ¤±ÉEò ¨ÉäÆ MÉªÉä* nùÚºÉ®úÒ =x½þÉäÆxÉä BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ +Éè®ú Eò½þÒ* nùÚºÉ®úÒ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä +Éè®ú Eò½þÒ +Éè®ú ´É½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ lÉÒ, ´É½þ ¦ÉÒ MÉ±ÉiÉ Eò®úEòä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ xÉä ½þÒ ¤ÉiÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) xÉ½þÒÆ, {ÉÉäJÉ®úhÉ ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ ¤É½þºÉ Eòä nù®úÊ¨ÉªÉÉxÉ nùÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò½þÒ MÉ<ÇÆ, ´Éä EòèºÉä MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þÉÆ =ºÉEòÉä º{É¹]õ ÊEòªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* ¨ÉÖZÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ +¡òºÉÉäºÉ ½þè ÊEò BEò ´ªÉÊEiÉ ÊVÉºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉEòä >ð{É®ú Eòä VÉÉä +ÊvÉEòÉ®úÒ ½þèÆ, ÊVÉxÉEòä xÉÒSÉä ´É½þ EòÉ¨É Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ, =xÉEòÒ 30 +EiÉÚ¤É®ú, 1990 EòÒ Ê]õ{{ÉhÉÒ <ºÉ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉ¦ÉÒ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ ¦ÉäVÉÉ ½þè* <ºÉEòä {ÉäVÉ xÉ¨¤É®ú SÉÉ®ú {É®ú Ê±ÉJÉÉ ½þè-

In fact, his immediate superior Vice Admiral S. Jain, FOC-in-C Western Command, had this to say about Rear Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (in his letter dated 30th October, 1990 addressed to the then Chief of Naval Staff). I quote:

"Bhagwat has made viciously malicious and false accusations ...is a disgruntled officer who is also mentally unbalanced. He is schizophrenic and needs psychiatric help ...has developed a sinister information gathering net-work within the service and the Government for ulterior motives ...has been spying on his superiors, subordinates and peers ....has not hesitated to tap telephones ...has rifled through desks of others."

It was in 1990, the Flag Officer commanding the Western Command. Vice Admiral Jain had written to his superior. ÊEòºÉxÉä =xÉEòÉä ¤ÉxÉÉªÉÉ, =xÉEòÉä ¤ÉxÉÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä nùÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, VÉÉä ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ, ¨ÉMÉ®ú ½þ¨É +¦ÉÒ =ºÉ {É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ Eòä´É±É BEò ´ªÉÊEiÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉEòä ºÉÖ{ÉÒÊ®úªÉ®ú +ÉÊ¡òºÉ®ú EòÒ EªÉÉ ®úÉªÉ lÉÒ, =ºÉEòÉä ®úJÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* +É{É <ºÉ {É®ú ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þºÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ, ´É½þ VÉ°ü®ú ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB +Éè®ú VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ iÉlªÉ ½þÉäÆ, ´Éä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +ÉxÉä SÉÉÊ½þB* ¸ÉÒ ¤ÉºÉÖnùä´É +ÉSÉÉªÉÇ : VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. EòÉ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É? ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ: VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. ÊEòºÉ {É®ú ¤Éè`öä, +É{É ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. EòÉ xÉÉ¨É Ê±ÉB VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +É{É¨ÉäÆ Ê½þ¨¨ÉiÉ ½þè iÉÉä +É{É +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉBÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. ¨ÉiÉ ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉB* ÊEòºÉÒ BEò ´ªÉÊEiÉ xÉä EòÉä<Ç MÉ±ÉiÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ, MÉ±ÉiÉÒ EòÒ, ºÉÉ®úÒ ºÉäxÉÉ EòÉä {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ b÷É±ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ, +É{É ¨ÉÖZÉä Eò½þäÆ, VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. ºÉä EªÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* +É{É ¨ÉÖZÉ {É®ú +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉBÆ, EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ {ÉÉÆSÉ ºÉnùºªÉ ±ÉMÉÉBÆ ªÉÉ BEò ºÉnùºªÉ ±ÉMÉÉB ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä {ÉÉºÉ ªÉ½þ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ BÊ¡òb÷äÊ´É]õ ½þè +Éè®ú ªÉ½þ ºÉ½þÒ ½þè, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ {É®ú ½þ¨É +É{ÉºÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* +¦ÉÒ ½þ¨ÉxÉä BEò {ÉÉäº]õ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ lÉÒ, +É{ÉEòÉä ´É½þ ¨ÉÆVÉÚ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ<Ç +Éè®ú {ÉÉäº]õ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ½þ]õÉ ÊnùªÉÉ +Éè®ú ¨Éä®úä >ð{É®ú +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* BEò BäºÉä ´ªÉÊEiÉ xÉä ¨ÉÖZÉ {É®ú +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉB ÊVÉºÉEòÒ ÊVÉ¨¨ÉänùÉ®úÒ +É{É +{ÉxÉä ½þÉlÉÉäÆ {É®ú ±Éä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ½þ¨É VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. xÉ½þÒÆ, +nùÉ±ÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ ªÉÉnù´É: ¨ÉèÆxÉä +Éè®ú nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ xÉä ÊxÉªÉÖÊEiÉ EòÒ lÉÒ, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ Eò¨ÉÒ ½þè, ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùäÆ? ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ: ¨ÉÖZÉä +É{ÉEòä ¡òèºÉ±Éä {É®ú EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, ®úiiÉÒ ¦É®ú ¦ÉÒ +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{ÉEòä ¡òèºÉ±Éä Eòä >ð{É®ú ½þÒ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøÉ ½þè* ´É½þ +É{ÉEòÉ ½þÒ ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, ´É½þ Ê|ÉÆºÉÒ{É±É ºÉäFòä]õ®úÒ EòÉ ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ Êb÷¡òäÆºÉ ºÉäFòä]õ®úÒ, EòäÊ¤ÉxÉä]õ ºÉäFòä]õ®úÒ +Éè®ú iÉÒxÉÉäÆ ºÉäxÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä ¨ÉÖÊJÉªÉÉ+ÉäÆ uÉ®úÉ ¤Éè`öEò®ú Ê±ÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ÊxÉhÉÇªÉ ½þè* +¤É EªÉÉ ¨ÉèÆ ´É½þ nùºiÉÉ´ÉäVÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ±ÉÉ>ðÆ! ¨Éä®úÒ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉiÉÉ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ Eòä ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉäÆ EòÉä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ¡òè±ÉÉªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Uôäc÷Ò VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þèÆ, xÉäiÉÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉÒ nù±É iÉÉä <xÉ SÉÒVÉÉäÆ EòÉä VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ, ´Éä ®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ®ú½þ SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ, ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ¦ÉÒ VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ BEò xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÒxÉ ¦ÉÚiÉ{ÉÚ´ÉÇ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÉä ºÉÉ®úÒ SÉÒVÉÉäÆ EòÒ VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ ½þè* SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : A spate of sensitive papers are released to the media from various sources. You read everyday a particular newspaper, you will find something from the Defence Ministry. How has it reached the Pioneer?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Defence Ministry's papers have also been hijacked.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : Then, you are incompetent. ... (Interruptions) You are not competent to continue. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: The former Naval Chief has been distributing the papers.

The minutes of the meetings have been taken away. (Interruptions)

SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, the Minister is responsible for that. He should tender his resignation. Who is responsible for that? (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ ÊEò Êb÷¡òäÆºÉ ºÉä EòÉMÉVÉÉiÉ ½þÉ<ÇVÉèEò ½þÉä MÉB, ªÉ½þ ¤Éc÷É MÉ¨¦ÉÒ®ú ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ EòÉä<Ç ¨ÉÉ¨ÉÚ±ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, the Defence Minister has said that some information was hijacked from the Defence Ministry. What was he doing? Who is responsible for that?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, let him complete. ¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ: ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, +É{É ¨ÉÖZÉä EªÉÉäÆ ]õÉäEò ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò VÉÉä Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®úÒ Eòä ÊxÉhÉÇªÉ ½þÖB ½þèÆ, ´Éä EªÉÉ xÉä´ÉÒ SÉÒ¡ò Eòä ½þÉlÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉxÉÉ =ÊSÉiÉ lÉä, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ xÉä´ÉÒ SÉÒ¡ò EòÒ +Éä®ú ºÉä ´ÉèºÉä EòÉMÉVÉ ½þ®ú ®úÉäVÉ Ê®ú±ÉÒVÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ ¨ÉèÆxÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ =xÉEòä ºÉ½þÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉä <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +É{É ºÉSÉ {É½þSÉÉÊxÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ Eò½þEò®ú ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, I am on a point of order.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Under what rule are you raising the point of order?

SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, the Defence Minister has said that some information has been hijacked. He should tell the House as to who is responsible for that. The Defence Minister owes an explanation to the House. (Interruptions)

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YERRANNAIDU (SRIKAKULAM): On behalf of the Telugu Desam Party, I rise to support the Motion of Confidence moved by the Prime Minister.

Sir, the Telugu Desam Party stands for federalism, secularism, democracy, development and social justice. Over four-and-a-half decades of Congress rule was marked by corruption, nepotism, favouritism, groupism and mal-administration. Shrimati Sonia Gandhi, the All India Congress President, has a number of times dubbed the regional parties as destructive forces. The Congress Party has criticised the regional parties a number of times. I would like to say that the DMK or AIADMK are also regional parties. Why is the Congress joining hands with them? The Congress Party has declared umpteen times that the regional parties lack national perspective and are irrelevant. History has repeatedly proved Congress wrong. Since the last Ninth, Tenth, Eleventh and Twelfth Lok Sabhas, no Government could be formed at the Centre without the help of the regional parties. In future also coalition governments are inevitable. In the Eleventh Lok Sabha the Congress Party was responsible for the dismissal of two governments at the Centre; both Shri Deve Gowda's Government and the Government headed by Shri Gujral, without their committing any fault.... (Interruptions)

Sir, my State has suffered decades of dictatorial rule. This period was full of evil, corruption, communalism, stagnation, lawlessness, disorder and anti-peoples' policies. All this gave birth to the Telugu Desam Party. Within nine months of its formation by Shri N.T. Rama Rao, the Telugu Desam Party came to power. Anti-Congressism is in our blood, and bone marrow.... (Interruptions) Our founder President NTR's dreams have been converted into deeds by our dynamic leader Shri N. Chandrababu Naidu. He has moulded the State as a model State with a smart Government which is simple, moral, accountable, responsive and transparent. The Andhra Pradesh Government extended support to the farmers who were committing suicides. This problem of suicides by the farmers was there even in Maharashtra but that State Government did not do anything. They even criticised the Telugu Desam Government for this. Even today, the Governments of Madhya Pradesh and Orissa are sending teams to Andhra Pradesh to see the development works so that they can adopt the same policies and programmes in their States also.

Sir, 1996 elections were marked by a historic change. Congress was thrown out by the people. At that time, the Telugu Desam Party was a part of the United Front Government. Our Leader, Shri Chandrababu Naidu was the initiator of the United Front. A meeting place for all regional and national parties was created. Telugu Desam, being an important partner of United Front, tried to provide alternative and better system of governance based on the policies of unity, stability, secularism, development and social justice.... (Interruptions)

23.00 hrs. MR. CHAIRMAN :He is not yielding. EÞò{ÉÉ Eò®ú +ÉºÉxÉ OÉ½þhÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU :Sir, they are disturbing my speech... (Interruptions)

SHRI K. BAPIRAJU (NARSAPUR): Sir, I am on a point of order. I want to know whether a speaker can read his speech... (Interruptions). You started reading. You talk about the BJP. ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ EòÉ |É¶xÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU : Sir, but this experiment was not destined to last. For the Congress, it is impossible to stay without power. From the first day, they started indulging in their favourite game of destabilisation. They created problems continuously. The Congress Party created problems everywhere. The whole country knows it. Even in this Lok Sabha, from the beginning they want to destabilize this Government. After the completion of 13 months period of BJP led coalition Government, what is the necessity to destabilize this Government? You tell me even one reason for this.

Coming to power by hook or crook is the only goal for the Congress. They want to come back through back door after having lost the people's mandate. The elections of 1998 made BJP the largest single party and along with its alliance it was the largest single group. In tune with the people's mandate and public sentiments which favoured BJP as a ruling party and Shri Vajpayee as the Prime Minister, TDP decided to extend issue based conditional support. We have extended support to the BJP led Government on the basis of National Agenda for Governance. Our friends have decided the National Agenda. They have completed only 13 months. They have said many things in the National Agenda. You give two-three years' time to them and then you criticise them. Our Party is committed to improve the lot of weaker sections, women, youth and minorities.

Our State of Andhra Pradesh is pioneering the women welfare activities. We are taking up people's welfare programmes like Janamabhoomi programme. The Congress Party has recently announced that if they come to power they would cancel the Janamabhoomi programme. That is why, my fear is that if the Congress Party comes to power, they would cancel the Janamabhoomi programme. Now, this programme is appreciated by each and every person in the country. All the States are sending their delegations to see the progress of this programme. Even the Congress leaders like Shri Mani Shanker Aiyar has praised the activities taken up by the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I noticed that the Congress is back with its favourite game of political opportunism and power grabbing without shame. It is changing colours and contradictory statements are coming from the stand of no-coalition to coalition, and only outside support to joint participation.

Congress is synonymous to chaos and instability. Unless and until it gets power, it will continuously carry on the game of destablisation. Once they come to power, they will stop destablisation. Otherwise, it will be a continous game of the Congress to create destablisation of any Government. This was experienced by Shri Charan Singh, by Shri Chandrashekhar, Shri Deve Gowda and Shri Gujral. Sir, why cannot we leave politiking to election times and get down to good governance aimed at all-round development? People's suffering is so large that we just cannot afford an era of continuous politiking. It may be the Congress past time but it can cause a national tragedy. The nation needs stability and stability is the need of the hour. We continue to adhere to our principle of an issue based conditional support to BJP. Therefore, we whole-heartedly support the Motion of Confidence.

(ends) DR. RAVI MALLU (NAGAR KURNOOL): The Motion of Confidence is moved by the BJP Government and not by the Telegu Desam Government...(Interruptions)

SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU : Our main aim is to stop the Congress coming to power through back door method without the mandate of the people...(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : +É{ÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{É +{ÉxÉÉ +ÉºÉxÉ MÞÉ½þhÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ½þ¨ÉxÉä ¸ÉÒ nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ EòÉä ¤ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉÉ ½þè* SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA (HASSAN): Hon. Chairman Sir, today we are debating the Motion of Confidence moved by the hon. Prime Minister. This is the second Motion of Confidence moved by the hon. Prime Minister in the last 13 months. When he assumed the office of the Prime Minister in March, 1998, he had moved the Motion of Confidence. We had taken a stand at that time and there is no change in our stand. We took a consistent stand to oppose this Government. There was no need to make any more explanation. We know that the Congress withdrew its support and we had lost our Government. I have no hesitation to say that but in 1998, when we all had combined, there was so much of internal contradictions amongst ourselves. We opposed each other. We fought with each other. Even then, we took a decision to vote against the Motion of Confidence. I want to make myself clear while saying that there are so many types of gossips going on. Three days back, the media published that Devegowda had called all the Opposition Members for dinner and that Soniaji and Jayalalithaji were going to attend that dinner meeting. These types of gossips and blackmailing had manipulated the news item. I am sorry to say that there must be some limit for all these things. I am sorry to say that even when I was the Prime Minister, there was an allegation against me that I met the Chief Justice of India to save some person who was facing some charges. Even after my denial, the present Finance Minister at that time made a challenge saying that he was going to prove that I met the Chief Justice of India at night 2 o'clock. These types of baseless allegations in public life are not going to help anybody. It is going to destroy the political system, political parties and political leadership. I want to make myself clear on this point before I go further.

Why do we want to oppose this Government? Let us be very frank about it. Shri Vajpayee has been the Prime Minister of this country for the last 13 months. I am not going to say that this Government has not done any good thing for the people. This Government has made certain achievements. Yesterday, the hon. Home Minister tried to list out the achievements. Naturally, the Government is bound to list out the achievements and we are here to make a critical analysis of the achievements. The Opposition is meant for that. We are not going to give certificates for the lapses committed by the Government. We are meant for making a critical analysis. What are those critical areas in respect of which we want to say that this Government should not continue in office?

Why did the Prime Minister go for a one-day hunger strike? He went and sat on a dharna for one day. What made him do that? Are they responsible? I would like to pose this question to them. Let the hon. Home Minister enlighten us as to what made the hon. Prime Minister go and sit on a hunger strike? What was his intention? For what mistake he has to do the prayachit? I would like to pose this question.

The hon. Prime Minister is ruling this country which is one of the largest and biggest democracies. Nearly 100 crore people are living in this country. It is one of the largest democracies in the world. About that event, he says that it is a national shame. I am not going to say who has committed the national shame. The Prime Minister says it. Why should he express national shame for an event that took place either in Orissa or in Madhya Pradesh or in Gujarat? I would like to pose the straight question to Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who is the Leader of the House today. Tomorrow, he may or may not be the leader. I do not know what is going to be the decision of the House. I am not going to canvass for anybody. Let me honestly speak. Let my Congress friends also realise that even though they destablised the Government, yet they also have to share the responsibility for the situation which the country is facing today.

I would like to pose this question to the hon. Home Minister. When we were running the Government, the BJP Government was there in Gujarat. The same Shri Keshubhai Patel was the Chief Minister. Why was the Bible not burnt? Why were the Churches not burnt during our period? What is the reason? It is because of the fact that once they took the responsibility of running the administration, those people got the inspiration that there is a Government which is going to protect them. That is why, this type of an heinous act of attacking one community started. I am not going to blame them without any background.

Sir, I personally travelled 920 kms by road in order to find out what has happened there because I do not want to believe merely the Press version. I went there. I visited one town which is a semi-urban area. On the one side, there were the Muslims and on the other side, there were the Hindus, the tribal people. One tribal was killed by stabbing by some Muslim anti-social elements. After the burial, those Hindus were going back. In our custom, while going back, they would touch water and then go home. Some boy shouted that the Muslims are coming with some weapons. The police rushed and shot the person who was inside the house, who was no more connected with these events. I went and saw for myself where the bullet was hit. The bullet hit the door, passed through his chest and hit the mirror.

This is what has happened in Gujarat. I would like to tell the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that when the Home Minister of Gujarat goes to that village with a population of about 10000 to 12000, he only visits the houses of Hindus and never bothers to visit those of other persons who were killed by the police. When this is the attitude, how can we support this Government? If the Prime Minister wants to have a prayaschit that means, there is something wrong. Even though the Prime Minister wants an impartial administration, there are certain elements which are trying to pull his leg. Why do you only try to find faults with your own allies who have deserted you? I would like to ask this question. What has happened in Bangalore in the Executive Committee meeting of the BJP? I do not want to narrate it. I got all the cuttings as to who has said what. I do not want to go into those details.

The hon. Minister of Home Affairs yesterday said, `We have appointed a Supreme Court sitting Judge?' I welcome it. But before the investigation started, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs says that one particular organisation was in no way connected with it. How do you expect an impartial inquiry if the Minister of Home Affairs himself passes a judgement even before the inquiry started? His three Cabinet Ministers go there and say that a particular organisation was not responsible. When three Cabinet Ministers give their judgement even before the investigation started by a sitting Judge of the Supreme Court, how can we allow this type of things to go on? Sir, I would like to highlight some of the issues about the priorities of this Government. He mentioned his achievements, Pokhran-II and Agni-II. It is all right. I am not going to comment on those things. In 1998, when the Pokhran-II tests were conducted even the Opposition leaders belonging to the Congress party in both the Houses went and issued a statement. That was on 11th and 13th. The tests were conducted on two days. In fact, on the 15th, I wrote a strong letter objecting, particularly on the issue of the tests. What will be the implication? Some people have said - I do not want to name them that they were all impotent Prime Ministers and the potent Prime Minister has taken a decision to have the nuclear tests as if in 30 days they had manufactured the bomb. We took a decision at that time not to allow them when we were running the Government because of the economic situation. Now, I do not want to again dilate particularly on that issue. What has happened? Pakistan has also conducted two tests. They have a population of about six or seven crore. We have a population of about 100 crore but we have now come to an equal level in the eyes of the entire world. That is all what they have achieved. I do not want to go beyond that.

Yesterday, I was hearing the speech of the hon. Minister of Finance. He said, `Do not regret afterwards'. What is there to regret, Mr. Finance Minister? How are the farmers suffering and how are the rural masses suffering for the last one year? When you took over, the hon. Prime Minister had said that he was going to take very seriously the problems of the farmers. Several farmers have committed suicide. This was the assurance given by the hon. Prime Minister in this very same House.

I would like to ask a straight question. It is not your mistake that the farmers are committing suicides. I am not going to say that. It is the cumulative effect of the blunders we have committed in the last 50 years.

We have neglected that sector. There is no hesitation for me to say that. I would like to ask a question. Why are you regretting when you are going to lose Shri Vajpayee's Government? What is the contribution made by Shri Vajpayee in this regard? As soon as he became the Prime Minister, he constituted two high-powered committees to advise. Who are there in those committees? They are all big industrialists. How many members of those committees visited the villages? They might have gone to Switzerland to pass on the money which you are going to give. Is there a single agricultural economist in those committees to advise the hon. Prime Minister? Those two committees have formed further sub-committees and I do not want to go into the details of those sub-committees. But in those committees, how many are there to represent the farming community? You think that the people belonging to the farming community are ignorant people and they cannot function in such committees. There are some big industrialists in those committees who can improve your GDP or who can improve your economy, but agriculture is not going to improve your economy.

Sir, we have invested more than Rs.20,000 crore of institutional financing on the steel industry. When the steel industry is suffering because of the global glut, you want to bail them out and the IDBI has agreed to give Rs.4,000 crore to about six or seven industries. I would like to ask one question to the Finance Minister. I am not going to charge him. He said that he is not involved in the matter of advancing further assistance to bail out these steel industries.

When the farmers are suffering today and selling their onions at one rupee per kilogram and selling their tomatoes at 50 paise per kilogram, what assistance did you extend to them? What is their fate today? What action did you take to bail them out? Please tell me. Why should we support a Government which wants to help only such of those people who are very close to them?

Sir, I have got the Report of the IDBI with me. I do not want to say what Shri Mohan Guruswamy has said. I am not going to raise all those issues now. He is not a man on the street. He is the person who has enjoyed certain status in your Government and discharged certain responsibilities. He has made certain serious allegations. Our Government had rejected the Maharani Power Project in Orissa. The Hindujas pressurised our Government to give the guarantee to bear the demurrages in case there is no constant flow of coal. That is the issue. We refused to give the guarantee. We rejected it. The Finance Minister can get up and refute it. If I am not correct, I am prepared to accept and withdraw my remarks. When I was the Prime Minister there was so much pressure on us, but we refused it. Shri Chidambaram is present here and he knows it. I do not want to go into the details now. But I can read out as to what decision you have taken on that issue particularly, because all these things have appeared in the newspapers. I do not want to waste the time of this House by going through all the allegations which he has made.

The allegations are before the House.

How the money, which has been given for some of the steel industries, has been diverted? It has all been narrated here. The IDBI Report is in my hands. I do not want to go to the extent of reading the Report. For the benefit of the House, the way in which they have diverted the funds, has appeared in the newspapers. Not only that, even when they submitted the project reports, the value of the projects has been manipulated. They have mentioned here about pelletisation and all these things. One of the reports inicates that nearly $ 280 billion worth of Indian money are in the Swiss Banks and other foreign banks.

I would like to ask the hon. Prime Minister that when he took so much interest in deciding to bail out the steel industry, why has he not given at least a little help to the farming community? Please tell me about that.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI YASHWANT SINHA): Will you yield for a moment? Hon. Shri Devegowda, you are repeatedly addressing your questions to me: "Please tell me. Please tell me." I did not want to get up. I do not want to join issues with you.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA (HASSAN): I have no objection.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Probably, you were not present in the House yesterday when I was intervening. Many of these questions have been answered by me when I was intervening in the debate.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Tell me, Sir.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Mr. former Prime Minister, now, unfortunately, you do not remember the facts of your own tenure in office. What can I do? You are reading. I know what you are reading. We will have time to discuss all that. Who is the person you consider to be God? You are reading that. I am saying, "Please cross-check. Please verify your facts before you make an allegation."

You were asking me what we have done for the farmers. You are talking about the steel industry. I do not know what the IDBI has given.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA :The report of the IDBI is here.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Sir, it is not a function of the Ministry of Finance to decide what the financial institutions will do and what loans they will give. Shri Chidambaram is sitting here. Let him challenge me if he wants. Did he decide as the Minister of Finance what loans will be given by the banks and the financial institutions? What bailout package will be given? What will be given? They are autonomous within their jurisdiction and they decide. The Minister of Finance or the Ministry of Finance does not interfere. I have not interfered with that decision. Let me make it very very clear.

You wanted to know how much we have given to the farmers. Yesterday and in the Budget speech, I have said that in 1997-98, if Rs. 31,000 crore were given as loans by the institutions and the banks to the agriculture sector, in 1998-99, it has gone up to Rs. 38,000 crore - a 20 per cent increase. This is what we have done for agriculture, Mr. former Prime Minister.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : For industries, you have given more than Rs. 98,000 crore. Sixty-five crore people are agriculturists. You are telling that you have given Rs. 38,000 crore. I do not want to argue on this issue. You have mentioned that you have done a lot for the agriculturists. For fertilisers, there was zero import duty. You have increased it. Now, you have levied five per cent import duty on fertilisers. That is the major help you have rendered.

Regarding the subsidy on sprinkler irrigation and drip irrigation, what we decided and what you have given has been scaled down.

For the small tractors, they have removed the subsidy that we had given. I would like to inform you that in the irrigation the allocation has been reduced. Even on the rural development, the allocation has been reduced. I do not want now to quote the figures. But if the hon. Finance Minister wants, I can read them out from his own Budget.

Sir, I would like to tell you that the agriculturists are the worst sufferers today. They have been treated in a shabby manner. About Rs.42,000 crore are non-performance assets. This has been mentioned by the hon. Finance Minister and by the hon. Prime Minister. It is due to the institutions which are autonomous, as he has rightly put it, or the banks. They have classified this amount of Rs.42,000 crore as non-performance assets. It may be accumulative and it may not be in one year, I agree with him. But those people, the autonomous financial institutions are lending further advances to bailout those industries.

But in the case of farmers what are they doing? Suppose, if he is going to become a defaulter, all coercive steps are going to be taken to recover the money. In this country, why the farmers commit suicide? What is the reason? Because he cannot tolerate that humiliation. It can be either a private money lender or a banking institutions or a cooperative bank or the commercial bank, but this is the fate of the farmers today.

I am totally convinced on this matter that this is not a farmers' Government. This is a traders' Government. There is no hesitation for me to tell this. The hon. Finance Minister is willing to allow a discussion on some of the charges made by a former Advisor to him. That is there, if this Government is going to survive tomorrow. As the promise was made by the Government to allow a discussion on the allegations made by Shri Mohan Guruswamy, let the matter be taken up for discussion under Rule 193 in this House.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: It is already under discussion and three Members have already spoken.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : No,I said, if the Government survives then we would take up.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: The discussion is already on under Rule 193. It will even survive the Government and we will have a discussion whoever is in power. We insist on that because I want to clear the position of the Government.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Whether it is going to survive or not it is for the Speaker to tell him, if I am correct. Whatever motions have been moved and if the Government changes, the changed Government has to give its own acceptance. I do not want to go into the aspect whether the Government is going to remain or going to be changed. It is for the House to decide tomorrow.

Sir, why I am mentioning all these things is that in the last one year, how on one side the farming community has been treated and on the other side the industry, that too specifically the steel industry, has been given all encouragement by the Government. The hon. Finance Minister says that they had not interfered. Then how the price for the steel has been affected?

The hon. Member, Shri Chidambaram had quoted a d.o. or a notification the other day. It has been just mentioned by him. The hon. Finance Minister had said that `only the Commerce Ministry and the Steel Minister were responsible and I am in no way connected with that. 247 dollars or 304 dollars were the floor price or the Preference price which has been fixed by the Commerce Ministry and the Steel Ministry and not by the Finance Ministry, and I am in no way connected.' This is what your good-self has said. I would like to ask from the Minister as to what made the Government now to revise it from 302 dollars to 260 dollars. In the last three or four months, the profit has been made by some of these hot coil roll mills. What is the deal? That matter should be considered by the House. Why do you want to help the steel industry? When you had fixed 302 dollars as the floor price, why have you all of a sudden in three months reversed it back? So, there must be some reason which should be accepted by the House. I do not want to go into that now. The time is the essence now.

Now, I now want to deal with T-90 tanks. The hon. Raksha Mantri has mentioned about T-90 tanks and also about Vishnu Bhagwat issue. Sir, he has circulated a book, `Government of India, Ministry of Defence'. Part-I deals with Vishnu Bhagwat issue. Part-II has been reserved for T-90 tanks. Now, he tried to print in this book, which has been circulated to all the Members of the House, only one letter which I have written to the Prime Minister on the 8th November. It was very convenient for him and that is why, he has printed that letter, where certain typographical errors were there. On the 10th November, within two days, I wrote another letter making the correction.

Sir, I would like to just bring to the notice of this august House that these are the letters which I have written to the hon. Prime Minister and the Defence Minister. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN (CHANDIGARH): Mr. Chairman, Sir, there are 20 more speakers to participate in this debate. Please fix the time limit. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Sir, this is a serious matter. Please allow me to speak. Otherwise, it is going to be one-sided argument, which has been advanced in this booklet circulated to all the Members.

Sir, kindly see as to what plea the hon. Defence Minister had taken. In his reply, the Defence Minister had taken the plea that this was decided by the previous Government. Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, as the Raksha Mantri, had gone to Moscow in October 1997. In November 1997, a meeting was held in the room of the Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister; so and so persons were present there. The Army Delegation evaluation performance of T-90 tanks was made in February 1998. The Technical Evaluation Report was given on the 25th of May, 1998. The visit of the Defence Secretary was made in June 1998. The Cabinet Committee on Security gave the approval in principle for the procurement of T-90 tanks on the 3rd December 1998. The date of arrival of the Russian Delegation for the Price Negotiation Committee meeting for T-90 tanks was on the 20th January 1999.

I raised this issue not because I have any interest of a particular tank. This was the issue raised by the Member of the very same House, who is also the Chairman of the Standing Committee. He wrote a letter to the Raksha Mantri on the 3rd November, 1998.

In that letter, he has categorically mentioned that T-90 tank is the state-of-the-art tank but it never came into production for reasons best known to the Russians. Therefore, the induction of these tanks cannot be done within the acceptable time frame in view of the absence of production line in Russia. To produce the same at Avadi will not be cost effective both in money and time taken for production to commence. Moreover, T-90 has never been trial evaluated in India in summer or winter. Russia has now gone to their state-of-the-art tank, `Black Eagle', which is the tank of the future. This was written by the Chairman of the Standing Committee who is also one of the officers who served in the Defence. Shri George Fernandes is not an expert. I am not an expert. Or Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav is not an expert. A person who has served in the Defence has written the letter to the Defence Minister on 3rd November, 1998. I would like to again, particularly, stress one point. He says, T-72S, on the other hand, has many common features with 272M and the production of this tank can commence without much delay. It is pertinent to clarify here that all the add-ons of T-90 can be fitted into T-72S which has a tank fire control system, latest technology, 125 mm tank gun, 1000 horse power engine, anti-tank and anti-helicopter missile, SBIR and anti-tank guided missile protective system. With all these add-ons, T-72S has virtually become as good as T-90 and the cost is about Rs.5-6 crore, whereas T-90 is about Rs.12-13 crore. This was the letter addressed by the Chairman of the Standing Committee.

In addition to that, there is one more letter written by Lieutenant-General Foley. What has he written? This is letter dated 6th June. The hon. Defence Minister should go through the letter which was written by a retired Army General whether we should go for T-90 or not. Yes, Shri Mulayam Singh went there somewhere in November, 1997. Yes, I have quoted the date. Subsequently, the Principal Secretary has taken the meeting. He has tried to shift the responsibility on all these things, including the initiation made by us. Who has initiated this purchase of T-90 tanks? It is the UF Government. Have they said anywhere you should not consider T-72? (Interruptions) No, Sir, this is the issue which I cannot avoid. ¸ÉÒ ºÉiªÉ {ÉÉ±É VÉèxÉ :+¦ÉÒ 20 +Éè®ú ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ ½þè* <ºÉEòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ªÉ½þ ½þÖ+É ÊEò Eò±É ºÉÖ¤É½þ Eòä MªÉÉ®ú½þ ¤ÉVÉäÆMÉä* SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : No, he has misled the House. He is very much competent to mislead the House.... (Interruptions) I am not going to yield so far as this particular issue is concerned. He has made charges against me. Otherwise, what can I do? He has raised that issue here. He has also circulated the booklet where he has tried to shift the allegation subsequently against me.

This is his interview in the India Today. I am quoting the Question and the Answer.

"Q. The Opposition believes there are enough charges.

A. I presume it is because they see political possibilities in this whole thing. They do not realise the damage they are causing to the nation's security. They are questioning the integrity of officers. Forget George Fernandes: I am dispensable.

Q. What are you referring to?

A. Well, you have a Deve Gowda who wakes up one morning and says we should not buy T-90 tanks but T-72 tanks from Russia for reasons he is yet to explain. And in doing so he questions the integrity of one of the finest officers in the Indian Army--General S. S. Mehta (who headed the army committee that recommended its purchase). If there was a situation of conflict and we had to fight in the Rajasthan desert, General Mehta would have led a corp with 1,000 tanks into action.

"If I have to make a choice between General Gowda and General Mehta"

-- at least he has given me the status of a General! Your Raksha Mantri says, --

"If I have to have a choice between General Gowda and General Mehta, I won't take a second look at General Gowda. General Mehta has lived with tanks all his life. He and his men would have to fight, not Gowda's sons."

I have got the cassettes of the one and a half hours' marathon TV interview. I went through them for one and a half hours. He says that I went to Russia with my son and I met President Yeltsin. President Yeltsin asked me, "Gowdaji, will you take the T-72 tanks?" And Gowdaji asked President Yeltsin -- he has dragged the name of the President of the other country -- "Is the tank factory in your constituency?" Now I have brought it. I have brought the TV cassette. "Is that tank factory in your constituency?", I asked Mr. Yeltsin. Then Mr. Yeltsin said, "Yes". Then I will consider. That is what Gowda replied to that! That is according to that tape! Is it a joke? Is it a joke by the Minister of Defence? Your Minister of Defence goes to the extent of making fun! Whom is he going to convince through the electronic media? He wants to use the electronic media because he does not want to come before the House. About one week back he went to the electronic media. The questions were so framed to see that ... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please conclude now.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : We cannot stop it here. I am a diabetic. I waited since morning. I am not going to leave this charge which has been made against me at this stage. It is practically impossible. What for are we here?

Here is a letter written by him. He says that, " It is sad and unfortunate that a person like him has chosen to make insinuations against senior officers like Lt. General S.S. Mehta who has an impeccable record and an unblemished integrity and professional competence. Perhaps you have not realised the amount of damage your insinuations could cause to the General officer's morale in particular and the Army in general."

By writing a letter about the simultaneous trial evaluation in Rajasthan desert, I had committed a blunder, or I had made a mistake. It is a letter which was written by the Chairman of the Standing Committee much earlier than me.

And not only that. General Foley says on the l2th June, l998, that "the DRDO is our main, strong and obstructive impediment." He says in his letter and I will read the relevant portion:

"Pending decision, the T-72S and T-80 tanks were evaluated in 1992-93 -- prior evaluation -- to establish the induction of either or both as a progressive step to replace All-T-55 Vijayanta and T-70 tanks, the T-72S and T-80s are NVC protected but had defects. T-80 has failed in the desert for reasons of the turbine engine. T-72 fulfilled all operational parameters."

"... and 300 were to be inducted at a cost of Rs. 3.5 crore each. The Trial Report is available with the DG Mechanised Forces. In addition, the Avadi Tank Factory was to be upgraded for overhauling T 72 tanks to a T 72 S profile for Rs. 25 crore only, as all other facilities suited upgradation. This estimated potential was delayed and still lies in limbo for reasons of bureaucratic manipulations, possibly with Arms Dealers."

This letter was written by the Army Officer, the retired Lt. General.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Please conclude. There are 22 Members in the list.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : With the blessings of some of the secular forces after Vajpayee's Government was removed, I was also asked to head the Government for about 11 months. Now, at least, he is given a status of a General. If I have taken the military training, I would also have become the Chief of the Army.

Shri Fernandes is a very eloquent speaker. He produced so many documents. But why has he failed to produce all the documents in this book which has been circulated to the Members? He knows how to give a distorted version. He is very capable enough in that. He has criticised the Congress. Did they not take the support of the Congress to remove Morarji Desai's Government? Was Shri George Fernandes not in that operation? Has he not taken the Congress support to remove Morarji Desai's Government? I do not want to go into all these details. ...(Interruptions). b÷É. ¨ÉnùxÉ |ÉºÉÉnù VÉÉªÉºÉ´ÉÉ±É (¤ÉäÊiÉªÉÉ): ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ iÉÉä =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¦ÉÒ +É{ÉEòÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä* EòÉÆOÉäºÉ xÉä +É{ÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ* SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : They have removed me, I do not care. I am not at their mercy. But here the Army Officers -- one of them is the Chairman of the Standing Committee on Defence and another is the Lt. General -- have categorically mentioned about it. The Finance Minister went to the extent of explaining in the TV interview ...(Interruptions). I am sorry. I have made a mistake. The Minister of Defence has written a letter to me. He said that the morale of the Army in general and the morale of that particular officer has been destroyed because of my writing this letter. Let the hon. Prime Minister, when he is going to give the reply, try to clarify the position. What exactly was the decision taken by the Government? Without evaluation where was the hurry to purchase T-90 tanks? The person who went to Moscow -- Gen. S.S. Mehta -- is the Chairman of the Price Negotiation Committee. During the last 50 years, the Chairman of the Price Negotiation Committee was a Civilian Officer. Why was that procedure changed? According to the Raksha Mantri, Gen. S.S. Mehta is one of the competent officers. Up-till today, till your Government came to power, the norms that has been adopted for purchase of any tank were the technical evaluation and the field test. If all these things are going to be cleared, then only the question of Price Negotiation Committee comes up. The Price Negotiation Committee is going to be headed by a senior officer, either by a Joint Secretary or by an Additional Secretary or by one of the senior officers in the Ministry of Defence. ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ :+¤É EòxÉE±ÉÚb÷ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB* SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Why is he changed? That particular officer was cooperating with the Ministry of Defence.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Is this how every Member is going to get the time, Sir? b÷Éì. |É¦ÉÉ `öÉEòÖ®ú (+VÉ¨Éä®ú): ´É½þ {ÉÚ´ÉÇ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ½þèÆ, ®úÉ¹]Å EòÒ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ Eòä ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {É®ú ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : If the dismissal of Vishnu Bhagwat is going to be discussed, it is going to further damage the security threat. From the point of view of the security aspect, we should not discuss the various issues in the House, that is the stand taken by the Raksha Mantri. About this officer he says that where he has written a letter to have the trial evaluation of both T-72-S and T-90 Tank simultaneously, that is the mistake he has committed. And now he is talking about that particular officer's integrity, competency and all those things, which are going to give credit to that officer.

He has made several charges against Vishnu Bhagwat. I would like to quote one point where the same officer, Gen. S.S. Mehta, had tampered with his dossier. Let all the documents be produced before the Joint Parliamentary Committee. He has said that if what he has said is not true, he will resign from the House. Let all these documents be produced before this House. Is it not a fact that Gen. S.S. Mehta had altered his dossier when he was M.E. to the Chief of the Army Staff, the late Gen. K. Sundarji, misusing his position? What he did was to get removed from his dossier three months loss of seniority which was awarded to him as a punishment for killing another Service person in an accident caused by his negligence. Such loss of seniority is never reinstated though the effect is not there after the award, so long as he is kept junior to those now above him. Ê´ÉiiÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ : +ÉÊJÉ®ú ´É½þ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ :+¤É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB* ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ºÉ®ú, +É{É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú lÉä +Éè®ú nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ lÉä, +É{É <ºÉEòÉ JªÉÉ±É EòÊ®úªÉä, +É{É PÉÆ]õÒ ¤ÉVÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +É{É <xÉEòä ¨ÉÆÊjÉ¨ÉÆb÷±É ¨ÉäÆ º]õä]õ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú lÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +¤É 12 ¤ÉVÉxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ BEò b÷ÉìEòÚ¨Éäx]ÅÒ |ÉÚ¡ò ½þè +Éè®ú Êb÷¡òèxºÉ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ªÉ½þÉÆ ={ÉÊºlÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ´É½þ ½þ´ÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÉ¹ÉhÉ nùäEò®ú SÉ±Éä MÉªÉä* ªÉ½þÉÆ EòÉMÉVÉ-{ÉjÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè +Éè®ú Êb÷¡òèxºÉ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú MÉÉªÉ¤É ½þè* ¨ÉÉxÉ´É ºÉÆºÉÉvÉxÉ Ê´ÉEòÉºÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ, Ê´ÉYÉÉxÉ +Éè®ú |ÉÉètÉäÊMÉEòÒ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ iÉlÉÉ ¨É½þÉºÉÉMÉ®ú Ê´ÉEòÉºÉ Ê´É¦ÉÉMÉ Eòä ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (b÷É.¨ÉÖ®ú±ÉÒ ¨ÉxÉÉä½þ®ú VÉÉä¶ÉÒ): ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ, +¤É ´É½þ +vªÉIÉ ½þèÆ, ´É½þ VÉÉä Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : EªÉÉ <xÉEòÉä +vªÉIÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ {ÉèxÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ½þèÆ* SÉÊ±ÉªÉä +É{É Eò±É ºÉä +vªÉIÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉÆEò®ú |ÉºÉÉnù VÉÉªÉºÉ´ÉÉ±É :±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ uÉ®úÉ ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ EòÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ ÊEò +É{É ¸ÉÒ nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ Eòä ¨ÉÆÊjÉ¨ÉÆb÷±É ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ lÉä, +É{É <xÉEòÉ JªÉÉ±É ®úÊJÉªÉä +Éè®ú <x½þäÆ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ nùÒÊVÉB* {ÉÒ`öÉºÉÒxÉ +ÊvÉEòÉ®úÒ EòÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ =ÊSÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Sir, for how long are you going to allow him like this? He has the right to speak but he should be brief. This is not the way that he should take two hours...(Interruptions)

SHRI LALU PRASAD (MADHEPURA): You are Sena, he is a leader... (Interruptions)

24.00 hrs. SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Everyone has to speak. He has got important points. We have also got important points. ....(Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ªÉä ¤ÉäiÉÉ¤É ½þÉä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ªÉä ºÉäxÉÉ ½þèÆ, <xÉEòÒ VÉ°ü®úiÉ ¡òÒ±b÷ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè, ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÒ EªÉÉ VÉ°ü®úiÉ ½þè?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : EªÉÉ +É{ÉxÉä ºÉÒ¨ÉÉ nùäJÉÒ ½þè? +É{É EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ? ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Sir, his next allegation is ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : It is not the place where you are going to settle all your accounts when you speak.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : It is not the question of settling accounts. It is the question of telling the nation. ....(Interruptions) b÷Éì. |É¦ÉÉ `öÉEòÖ®ú : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ®úÉ¹]Å EòÒ ºÉÖ®úIÉÉ ºÉä VÉÖc÷É ½þÖ+É VÉÉä +½þ¨É ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉ {É®ú ªÉä ºÉÉ®úä iÉlªÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB <x½þäÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ {ÉÚhÉÇ Eò®ú nùäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : It is being discussed under Rule 193. If his Government comes tomorrow, he should bring it for discussion. It is not a subject of discussion today. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Hon. Raksha Mantri, before concluding his speech, said that there was an allegation made against him that thousands of crores were taken by Raksha Mantri. The allegation was made by some people and that is why, he was forced to answer some of those allegations made against him, including the dismissal of Vishnu Bhagwat. If he had not raised that issue, there was no need for me to clarify it. He went to the electronic media which has relayed it three times, four and a half hours and more than 20 lakh viewers have seen it. Where should I go to clarify? Shall I go to the electronic media? Why? ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Because he had gone to the electronic media. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : I am a Member of this House. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : He is also a Member of this House. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Then, let him come and defend himself. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : He will defend himself.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Let him come and defend. Let the Prime Minister defend. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : This subject is entirely different. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : Let him prove it. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :He has taken one hour. ....(Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ºÉiªÉ {ÉÉ±É VÉèxÉ : ªÉ½þ {ÉÚ®úÉ BEò ÊnùxÉ ¤ÉÉä±É SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ* <x½þÉäÆxÉä 16 iÉÉ®úÒJÉ EòÉä ¶ÉÖ°ü ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú +¤É 17 iÉÉ®úÒJÉ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè* <xÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þÖB {ÉÚ®úÉ BEò ÊnùxÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú JÉc÷ä ½þÉäxÉä ºÉä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ EòÒ ¤É¤ÉÉÇnùÒ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* EÞò{ÉªÉÉ +É{É +ÉºÉxÉ OÉ½þhÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +xÉäEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ =`öEò®ú ºÉ¨ÉªÉ EòÒ ¤É¤ÉÉÇnùÒ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úÊiÉ±ÉÉ±É EòÉ±ÉÒnùÉºÉ ´É¨ÉÉÇ (vÉxvÉÖEòÉ): ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉä ´ÉEiÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) EòÖUô ±ÉÉäMÉ ºÉèÆ]Å±É ½þÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ +É VÉÉªÉäÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ JÉÉ®ú¤Éä±É º´ÉÉ<ÇÆ (¤ÉÉ±ÉÉºÉÉä®ú): VÉ¤É +É{É +{ÉxÉÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉªÉäÆMÉä iÉ¤É Êb÷ºÉEòºÉ Eò®úÉ ±ÉÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úÉ¨ÉnùÉºÉ +`öÉ´É±Éä (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-¨ÉvªÉ) : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ºÉÖZÉÉ´É ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò 12 ¤ÉVÉä MÉªÉä ½þèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB +É{É +ÉVÉ EòÒ EòÉªÉÇ´ÉÉ½þÒ ªÉ½þÒÆ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®ú nùÒÊVÉB* Eò±É |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ Ê®ú{±ÉÉ<Ç nùÉä ¤ÉVÉä ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : The same Raksha Mantri had made an allegation that when I was the Prime Minister, in connection with clearance of the Cogentrix project, Rs. 60 crore had changed hands.

I was sitting on the other side then. It was alleged that an amount of Rs.60 crore changed hands in the Cogentrix project. I wrote to the present Prime Minister as follows:

"One and the only fast track project coming up in Karnataka has been held back. I am aware that reckless allegations have been made by two of your Cabinet colleagues. I am the last person to ask you to get over the project."

And, I asked the hon. Prime Minister, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee to order any inquiry into the issue and find out if Rs.60 crore changed hands. There was no question of shirking my responsibility, if I have done anything wrong in the eleven months of my Government.

An allegation was made by the Congress leaders about the import of wheat and this Government had agreed for a CBI inquiry into it. Most probably, it was Shri Barnala who had replied to a question in this regard on behalf of the Government. In that connection also I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister. During the eighteen-month period of UF Government, I was there as Prime Minister for eleven months and Shri Gujral was the Prime Minister for seven months. We had taken several decisions during those eighteen months. This Government had agreed to conduct CBI inquiry into the wheat imports deal. In the letter I wrote to the Prime Minister I asked him to review all decisions that we had taken in the eighteen-month period of UF rule. I requested him to appoint a high-powered committee to go into those decisions and to order an inquiry if any financial irregularity is found. I stated that we were prepared to face any type of inquiry, whether CBI or any other, if any financial irregularity is found in any of the decisions that we had taken.

They have also dragged the name of mine and that of my son. I demand this Government, if it survives in the voting tomorrow, or the Government that would be coming in to constitute a JPC to inquire into this matter.

I would like to know as to what was the interest of this Government in going for price negotiation without completing the simultaneous field tests. What was the need, what was the haste, and what was the background?

SHRI N.K. PREMCHANDRAN (QUILON): It is a clean case of corruption.

SHRI H.D. DEVEGOWDA : I do not know whether it is a case of corruption, or favouritism or involvement of arms dealers. Lt. Gen. N. Foley, whom this Government had nominated to this House, had stated in his letter to the Raksha Mantri, "Political pressure must not compromise national security." He also said, "Arms dealers are going to put all pressures." This is a letter written by him to the Raksha Mantri. I am not influenced by any arms dealers. I have not asked anybody to purchase a particular tank. As per the view of the experts who worked in the Army in different capacities, I had ordered trial evaluation of both the tanks simultaneously with the idea that we can go in for the tank which performs better. This is what I said.

He knows the art of arguing. The allegation is Dr. Yeltsin has influenced me because the tank factory is in his Constituency. He has dragged the name of President Yeltsin. If the Hon. Speaker is going to permit in your room to see this cassette, let the Defence Minister and other Cabinet colleagues, all of them, go and see that cassette.

He made allegations in connection with Shri Vishnu Bhagwat issue. According to him, these are truths. Who has to decide whether these are full truths, half truths or no truths? The House has to decide it by appointing a Committee. That is why, I am going to demand a Joint Parliamentary Committee. With this background, what he tried is to shift the allegation to UF Government. I totally deny and let this present Government or the future Government constitute any type of inquiry.

With these words, I oppose this vote of confidence motion. This Government should go. It is a traders" Government. It is not the Government of the common man or of the poor man. This Government must go.

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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ºÉÖ®úVÉÒiÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ ¤É®úxÉÉ±ÉÉ : ½þ¨É ¦ÉÒ =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ¶ÉÉÊ¨É±É lÉä* ½þ¨É +ÉÊJÉ®ú iÉEò ¨ÉÉä®úÉ®úVÉÒ ¦ÉÉ<Ç EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ nùäiÉä ®ú½þä* nùä´ÉMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉ<Ç, lÉÉäc÷ä ÊnùxÉ SÉ±ÉÉ<Ç, Ê¡ò®ú Eò½þÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉäÆ {ÉºÉxnù xÉ½þÒÆ, =xÉEòÉä SÉ±ÉiÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ, MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É VÉÒ EòÉä ±Éä +ÉB* lÉÉäc÷ä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù =xÉEòÉä ¦ÉÒ SÉ±ÉiÉÉ Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ* ]õÉè{ÉÊ±ÉÆMÉ MÉä¨É ªÉ½þ Eò®úiÉä ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þ º]õä]ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÒ EòÖUô Eò®úiÉä ®ú½þä* {ÉÆVÉÉ¤É ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÒ EòÖUô ÊEòªÉÉ* lÉÉäc÷ä ºÉä +Énù¨ÉÒ Ê±ÉB, =xÉEòÉä ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ ÊEòªÉÉ +Éè®ú BEò xÉ<Ç ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉ nùÒ* {ÉÆVÉÉ¤É ¨ÉäÆ ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ, VÉ¨¨ÉÚ-Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉèÆºÉÊ]õ´É º]õä]õ ½þè* ¶ÉäJÉ +¤nùÖ±±ÉÉ Eòä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ <x½þÉäÆxÉä BäºÉÉ EòÉ¨É ¶ÉÖ¯û ÊEòªÉÉ* ¡òÉ°üJÉ +¤nùÖ±±ÉÉ Eòä ¤É½þxÉÉä<Ç EòÉä JÉc÷É Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Eò®úäÆMÉä* =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¡òÉ°üJÉ +¤nùÖ±±ÉÉ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ÊMÉ®úÉ nùÒ* ªÉ½þ ºÉ®úEòÉ®úäÆ ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊMÉ®úÉiÉä lÉä, <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ +ÉiÉÆEò´ÉÉnù ¦ÉÒ ±ÉÉiÉä lÉä* <x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉ¨¨ÉÚ-Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú +Éè®ú {ÉÆVÉÉ¤É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉÆEò´ÉÉnù {ÉènùÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* VÉ¨¨ÉÚ-Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú ´ÉÉ±Éä ÊSÉ±±ÉÉ Eò®ú Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ´É½þÉÆ <x½þÉäÆxÉä +ÉiÉÆEò´ÉÉnù {ÉènùÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ªÉ½þ Ê¨ÉÊ±É]õèÆºÉÒ ±ÉÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÖ<Ç ÊEò ªÉ½þ EòèºÉä <Eò_ä ½þÉäÆMÉä +Éè®ú EªÉÉ Ê´ÉEò±{É ½þè? ¤É½þÖiÉ +ÉºÉÉxÉÒ ºÉä Eò½þ ÊnùªÉÉ ÊEò ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú {ÉÉÊ]õÇªÉÉÆ <Eò_Ò ½þÉä VÉÉBÆMÉÒ* ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ, {É½þ±Éä <xÉEòÒ ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú EòÒ ¶ÉE±É nùäÊJÉB* ªÉ½þ ´É½þ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ xÉä +Éì{É®úä¶ÉxÉ ¤±ÉÚ º]õÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ* VÉÉä ºÉ¤ÉºÉä {ÉÊ´ÉjÉ ºlÉÉxÉ ½þè, ´É½þÉÆ ¡òÉèVÉ ¦ÉäVÉ nùÒ* ¡òÉèVÉä nùÚºÉ®úäÆ nùä¶ÉÉäÆ {É®ú +ÉFò¨ÉhÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB VÉÉiÉÒ ½þèÆ* +{ÉxÉä nùä¶É Eòä ÊEòºÉÒ vÉ¨ÉÇ ºlÉ±É ºÉä ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): The operation Blue Star was supported by the BJP.

SARDAR SURJIT SINGH BARNALA: I am not yielding. <x½þÉäÆxÉä MÉÖ¯ûuÉ®úä EòÉä iÉ½þºÉ-xÉ½þºÉ Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ* +É{É <xÉEòÉä Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú ½þèÆ* +É{É <xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉÊºVÉnù ÊMÉ®úÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòºÉ EòÉ ½þÉlÉ lÉÉ? +ÉVÉ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÉªÉÉ´ÉiÉÒ VÉÒ ¤ÉiÉÉ MÉ<Ç ½þèÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÊºVÉnù ÊMÉ®úÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ <xÉEòÉ ½þÉlÉ lÉÉ* <xÉEòÉ ºÉèEòÖ±ÉÊ®úV¨É Ênù±±ÉÒ EòÒ ºÉc÷EòÉäÆ +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉVÉÉ®úÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ nùäJÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* iÉÒxÉ ÊnùxÉ Eòi±Éä-+É¨É ½þÉäiÉÉ ®ú½þÉ* +É{ÉEòÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ ÊSÉÆiÉÉ ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ªÉ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ nùä¶É EòÒ ®úÉVÉvÉÉxÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ VÉ½þÉÆ +É{ÉEòÉ ®úÉVÉ ½þÉä, +É{ÉEòÉ |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ¤Éè`öÉ ½þÉä, iÉÒxÉ ÊnùxÉ ´É½þÉÆ Eòi±Éä-+É¨É ½þÉäiÉä ®ú½þä, ºÉÉgøä iÉÒxÉ ½þVÉÉ®ú ±ÉÉäMÉ ¨ÉÉ®úä MÉB, +É{ÉEòÉä <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ ÊSÉÆiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ<Ç* +É{É ºÉÆºÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ®úèVÉÉä±ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ iÉEò xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÉ ºÉEòä* ´É½þ ªÉ½þÒÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖ+É, VÉMÉ½þ-VÉMÉ½þ ½þÖ+É* MÉÉÊc÷ªÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖ+É* VÉ½þÉÆ-VÉ½þÉÆ <xÉEòÉ ®úÉVÉ lÉÉ, ´É½þÉÆ ½þÖ+É* +É{É <xÉEòÉä ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú Eò½þäÆMÉä* <xÉEòÒ ºÉèEòÖ±É®ú ¶ÉE±É ½þè* Ê´ÉEò±{É EªÉÉ ½þè? Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ½þ¨É ºÉä xÉ {ÉÚUôÉä ÊEò Ê´ÉEò±{É EªÉÉ ½þè? ½þ¨É BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ Eò®ú ±ÉäÆMÉä* ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ Eò®ú ±ÉäÆMÉä? ºÉ¤ÉºÉä ºÉÒÊxÉªÉ®ú +Énù¨ÉÒ <xpùVÉÒiÉ VÉÒ ½þèÆ* ´É½þ SÉ±Éä MÉB ½þèÆ* ÊEòºÉÒ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉä =xÉºÉä {ÉÚUô Ê±ÉªÉÉ ÊEò EªÉÉ Ê´ÉEò±{É ½þè? =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ¨ÉÖZÉä {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ <ºÉEòÉ EªÉÉ ¤ÉxÉäMÉÉ +Éè®ú EªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉxÉäMÉÉ? {ÉÉ{ÉÉVÉÒ EòÉä {ÉiÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä +ÉVÉ Eòä +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøÉ* ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ EªÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ? ªÉ½þ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ÊMÉ®úÉxÉÉ ½þè* ¨Éè¨¤É®ú {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þiÉä ÊEò <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ ½þÉäÆ* lÉÉäc÷ä-lÉÉäc÷ä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ ½þÉäxÉä {É®ú nùä¶É ¤É®ú¤ÉÉnù ½þÉä VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* <iÉxÉÉ ¦ÉÉ®úÒ ¤ÉÉäZÉÉ {Éc÷iÉÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þÒ {É½þ±Éä Eò½þiÉä lÉä VÉ¤É ¸ÉÒ nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú lÉÒ ÊEò <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉ¤É ¸ÉÒ MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +ÉªÉÒ iÉÉä Eò½þÉ MÉªÉÉ ÊEò <±ÉèE¶ÉxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉä nùäÆMÉä* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +ÉÊ½þºiÉÉ-+ÉÊ½þºiÉÉ B¨É.{ÉÒWÉ EòÉä +ÆvÉä EòÖBÆ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ±Éä +ÉªÉä lÉä* +¤É Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ- SÉgø VÉÉ ¤Éä]õÉ ºÉÚ±ÉÒ {É®ú, ¦É±ÉÒ Eò®úäMÉä ®úÉ¨É* ®úÉ¨É EªÉÉ ¦É±ÉÒ Eò®úäÆMÉä VÉ¤É +É{É B¨É.{ÉÒWÉ EòÉä +ÆvÉä EòÖÆªÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ÊMÉ®úÉxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* +É{ÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ EòÉä<Ç Ê´ÉEò±{É xÉ½þÒÆ, EòÉä<Ç |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ* +É{É ÊEòºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ {É®ú <Eò_ä xÉ½þÒÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ SÉÉ®ú-SÉÉ®ú ±ÉÉäMÉ |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ¤ÉxÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉªÉä ¤Éè`öä ½þÖªÉä ½þèÆ* nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É ºÉÉ½þ¤É SÉ±Éä MÉªÉä ½þèÆ, ´Éä ¤ÉxÉ ºÉEòiÉä lÉä, MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É ºÉÉ½þ¤É ¤ÉÊgøªÉÉ +Énù¨ÉÒ ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =xÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ Ê±ÉªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* <ºÉÊ±ÉªÉä +É{ÉºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ Ênù¶ÉÉ½þÒxÉ ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú +SUôÉ EòÉ¨É Eò®ú ®ú½þÒ ½þè, <ºÉEòÉä SÉ±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þªÉä... ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ |ÉºÉÉnù : +É{É ¦ÉÒ =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ lÉä* +¤É ÊºÉ¡òÇ +É{ÉEòÉ <ºiÉä¨ÉÉ±É ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, +É{ÉºÉä ºÉ±ÉÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè* ºÉ®únùÉ®ú ºÉÖ®úVÉÒiÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ ¤É®úxÉÉ±ÉÉ: VÉÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè, ¤ÉÊgøªÉÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè +Éè®ú SÉ±ÉäMÉÒ* <ºÉEòÉ ºÉÉlÉ nùÒÊVÉªÉä* VÉÉä |ÉºiÉÉ´É ªÉ½þÉÆ {Éä¶É ÊEòªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòÉä {ÉÉºÉ Eò®úÉ<ªÉä, ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉ®úä ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ ºÉä ªÉ½þÒ Ê´ÉxÉiÉÒ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* BäºÉÉ xÉ ½þÉä ÊEò +É{É ºÉ¦ÉÒ B¨É.{ÉÒWÉ EòÉä +ÉÊ½þºiÉÉ-+ÉÊ½þºiÉÉ +ÆvÉä EòÖBÆ ¨ÉäÆ vÉEEòÉ nùä nùäÆ* SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (SIVAGANGA): Mr. Chairman Sir, I rise to make a brief intervention in this debate on the Motion of Confidence moved by the Prime Minister. I have listened to most portions of this debate either sitting in the House or watching television and I am left with the feeling that it is an unreal debate. Many hours have been consumed discussing the performance of this Government. This debate is not about the performance.

00.37 hrs (Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair) This debate is about principles. This debate is not about the efficiency of the Government. This debate is about the ethics of the Government, either honouring those ethics or breaching those ethics. In fact, this debate is not about governance at all. This debate is about how the system of Government has been brought into ridicule and contempt. That is why I do not believe that it is necessary for me to dwell at great length on the record of this Government in the last 13 months. When this Government assumed office, it said and did many things which I thought would take India into the Jurassic age.

There was a frontal attack on secularism. A very passive minority in this country has been pushed to the corner that it has to come to the streets to protest. There was an onslaught on educational institutions and this has been discussed at great length over the last two days. There was encouragement to lawless elements. The famous statement made by the Home Minister and the Defence Minister after the outrage in Orissa is but one example.

The period 1998-99, in terms of economic development, was a wasted year Contrary to what the Finance Minister proclaimed, the growth will be less than five per cent. The fiscal deficit will be more than 6.5 per cent. In fact, it will be the worst fiscal deficit in eight years and the lowest growth in seven years.

Thanks to the confused and muddled policies that this Government has followed, India is virtually friendless in the world today. Far from increasing India's security, they have increased India's insecurity and pushed India into a splendid isolation. The long train of abuses, depredations, misgovernance and incompetence is enough to show the door to this Government. But there is more. You lived through the last 13 months dangerously in the company of a party about which we warned that it would let you down when the time comes because you lived through the 13 months dangerously. Now, you have come to us today begging for support. In the last 13 months, your ally extracted every drop of juice that could be extracted from you. Your ally tried to do to the Government of India what they did when they were in the office in the Government of Tamil Nadu. Every rule was to be bent. Every system was to be violated. Every opportunity was to be exploited. Officers were changed. Prosecutors were changed. There was even a blatant attempt to change judges. You swallowed your pride and suffered humiliation after humiliation. The long line of Ministers who stood outside the door of your ally and suffered humiliation will be recorded in the pages of history Starting with Sardar Buta Singh and followed by Shri Pramod Mahajan, Shri Ramakrishna Hegde, Shri Ram Jethmalani, the Home Minister Shri Advani, Shri George Fernandes and Shri Yashwant Sinha...(Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF URBAN AFFAIRS AND EMPLOYMENT (SHRI RAM JETHMALANI): Shri Chidambaram, please get your facts rightly.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : You did not stand outside your ally's door but yet you were humiliated. I correct my facts. Finally, my good friend Shri Jaswant Singh who stood there and who has been branded virtually a traitor. I give one example. When the Prime Minister could not change the Law Minister, he changed the laws. The example is Sections 370 and 372 of the Companies Act. Shri Ram Jethmalani knows why that amendment was brought forward. Because the Prime Minister could not change the Law Minister but he changed the laws. At least on one occasion, the attention of the Prime Minister has been drawn to the fact that the Minister passed orders that any contract over rupees two crore should bear his personal signature. Your Prime Minister knows that. You can ask him to confirm it. Since this Government lived through dangerously, it has no reason to expect our support. I have some acquaintances in the BJP. They appeal to my head and say that I should vote according to what my head tells. Why are they not able to appeal to my heart because they are consumed by a sense of guilty and a sense of shame. They have been In pari delicto with this ally in the last 13 months.

When one Government goes, another Government would have to come in.

The Prime Minister did ask a very pertinent question this morning. I have asked myself this question. My Party has asked itself this question. I gave expression to this this morning when I said that I must know the contours of the shape of the next Government. It is not an irrelevant question. It is not a question which we in the Opposition can duck. We must answer that question squarely.

We must be able to look at the people of this country squarely and say when this Government is shown the door, the Government that comes in will be a Government with a difference. We are not opening the door to lead a communal and incompetent Government out, only to lead in a Government which has within its structure, a party, which abused its office in one State and abused every system, every rule and every procedure while sharing power for 13 months in the Government of India. Let me make this very clear. The Congress lifted the spirits of this country, the spirits of all Congress men, of all shades when it adopted the declaration in Panchmarhi. That is a very high pedestal that you erected for yourself and I urge the Congress to stand on that pedestal; I urge the Congress to learn the lessen of the last 13 months; I urge the Congress to stand by the principles that it proclaimed in Panchmarhi. But if the Congress and other parties fail to discharge their duties, my party, however small we may be, we will oppose them with the same determination that I oppose this Government. We will oppose that next Government; we will expose that next Government if it does not appear to have learnt the lessons of the last 13 months.

We regard communalism and corruption as twin evils. One is no more a evil than the other, one is no less an evil than the other. Corruption eats into the vitals of the Indian society. Communalism is an attack on the very ethos of India. Both have to be fought. My party, Sir, small or big, we believe that we have the courage, we have the conviction to fight these twin evils. Today we show the door to communalism not to lead corruption into Government. Let me make this very clear. We will oppose this motion. We will vote against this motion. We will join hands with the Opposition in defeating this Government. We will not grant any reprieve to this Government. Yet, at the same time, I appeal to my colleagues in the Opposition that the Government that you will bring in, after this Government goes out, must be a Government which is different, it must be a Government which is honest, it must be a Government which is resolute in its determination to fight communalism and corruption and it must be a Government which would repair all the damage that has been done in the last 13 months and take India forward. That is what the people of India expect of you and I hope you will not fail the people of India.

With these words, I conclude by saying that my party will vote against the Motion of Confidence moved by the Prime Minister. ... (Interruptions)

DR. M. THAMBI DURAI (KARUR): I want to make one clarification before the House. Just now, our hon. Member, Shri P. Chidambaram has made certain allegations regarding the functioning of the Law Ministry. I am totally not accepting what he has said. I know my power. Everybody knows that. The Law Minister cannot transfer any Judge. Only the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court can do. I have no power. Therefore, to make some kind of an allegation that I did it as a Law Minister was totally wrong.

Secondly, regarding the company affairs. He said about why they have brought to amend Section 372. He said that due to some motivation, the Prime Minister did so.

As far as amending Section 372 of the Companies Act is concerned, the same person, Shri Chidambaram, when he was the Finance Minister, had himself suggested that. Based on that only the hon. Prime Minister suggested and we have brought that amendment. There is no other motive behind it. But he has said something as if it was brought because of my intervention, which is not correct.

Then, he said something regarding the contracts. I have functioned under the powers given to me and to attribute some motives for that in the House is not correct because it has no connection at all. Let us see how they are going to function. This is the clarification I want to make.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Madhukar Sirpotdar.

SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN : This is how they are going to humiliate you. This is only the beginning. They are not going to spare you.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Jain, please do not interrupt.

DR. M. THAMBI DURAI : My records are perfect. You can find out.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring to your notice that it is against the etiquette of the House for any hon. Member to leave the House immediately after making a speech. Shri Chidambaram has made his speech now, but he has not even waited for two minutes and he left the House immediately. It is against the etiquette of the House.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When there is late sitting, this has been the convention now.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI K. NATWAR SINGH (BHARATPUR): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister should be sitting here. So, let him not talk about etiquettes.

SHRI MOTILAL VORA (RAJNANDGAON): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, neither the Prime Minister is here nor the Home Minister is here. Actually the Prime Minister should have been present here.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : That does not matter. That has got no relation to this. There are `Dos' and `Don'ts' for the Members. Please do not justify what he has done.

SHRI K. NATWAR SINGH : Sir, the Prime Minister has asked for confidence vote, not us. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not waste the time of the House. I have given the floor to Shri Madhukar Sirpotdar.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the mover of the Motion is not here.

PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the Motion of Confidence was moved by the Prime Minister. But he is not present here and even the Home Minister is also not present. (Interruptions)

0053 hours SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the hon. Prime Minister of India, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee has moved one motion yesterday which says:

"That this House expresses its confidence in the Council of Ministers."

I, on behalf of my party, rise here to support that Motion. Eò±É ºÉÖ¤É½þ 11 ¤ÉVÉä ºÉä ½þ¨É ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB ½þèÆ* Please try to understand what I am saying. Then you can intervene. ¤ÉÉ®ú½þ PÉÆ]õä ¤Éè`öxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù +¦ÉÒ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ xÉ¨¤É®ú +ÉªÉÉ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ BäºÉÒ |ÉèÊE]õºÉ ¤ÉxÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè ÊEò EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè, ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úEòä SÉ±ÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* We say that it is a practice and privilege of this House. VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉä, ´É½þ ¤ÉäSÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öä ®ú½þiÉä ½þèÆ* BäºÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ VÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ +ÉEò®ú b÷ägø-b÷ägø PÉÆ]õÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* Why have they been given this priority? It is only because they are the ex-Prime Ministers or ex-somebody. Therefore, they get ample time. They speak and just walk away. ªÉ½þ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ EòÉ EòÉèxÉ ºÉÉ iÉ®úÒEòÉ ½þè, ¨ÉÖZÉä ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉiÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ½þèÆ, ´Éä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ºÉÖ¤É½þ ºÉä, {É®úºÉÉäÆ ºÉä ¦ÉÒ ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB ½þèÆ, BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊEò ´Éä +ÉiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú SÉ±Éä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ, PÉÆ]õÉäÆ ºÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆxÉä ªÉ½þ ¦ÉÒ nùäJÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ ±ÉÉäMÉ ÊEòiÉxÉÒ nùä®ú ¤Éè`öiÉä ½þèÆ* ªÉÊnù +É{É ]õÉäEòäÆMÉä iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ BäºÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùÚÆMÉÉ* ]õÉäEòxÉä EòÒ EòÉä<Ç VÉ°ü®úiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ]õÉäEòÉ ½þè* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Sirpotdar, you straightaway come to the subject. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ªÉÊnù EòÉä<Ç ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ ]õÉäEòÉ-]õÉEòÒ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäMÉÉ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÚÆMÉÉ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉèÆ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò ]õÉäEòÉ-]õÉäEòÒ xÉ Eò®úäÆ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É =ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB |É´ÉÉäEò ¨ÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉBMÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ªÉ½þÉÆ VÉÉä |ÉºiÉÉ´É ±ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ, =ºÉEòÒ ´ÉVÉ½þ ªÉ½þ lÉÒ ÊEò ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ BEò {ÉÉ]õÒÇ xÉä <ºiÉÒ¡òÉ nùä ÊnùªÉÉ +Éè®ú ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ EòÉä VÉÉEò®ú ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É <xÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉä* ªÉ½þ ½þÉäxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉÖZÉä BäºÉÉ ±ÉMÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò +¦ÉÒ ¤ÉVÉ]õ ºÉè¶ÉxÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ºÉ¤É ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ EòÉä <iÉxÉÉ ¤ÉÊgøªÉÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ªÉÊnù BEò Eò]õ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉÉiÉä iÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉ¤É ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ ½þÉä VÉÉiÉÉ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =ºÉEòä {ÉÒUôä ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ lÉÒ* ªÉ½þ ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ ÊEòºÉxÉä ¤ÉxÉÉ<Ç? ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB ¸ÉÒ ºÉÖ¥É½¨ÉhÉªÉ¨É º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ xÉä* =xÉEòÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ´Éä {ÉÉÆb÷´ÉÉWÉ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ªÉä ºÉ¤É EòÉè®ú´ÉÉWÉ ½þèÆ* {ÉÉÆb÷´É +ÉB, ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉä nùÚºÉ®úÒ iÉ®ú¡ò SÉ±Éä MÉB* ¨ÉèÆ ¸ÉÒ º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ ºÉä ªÉ½þ {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉÊnù ªÉä ºÉ¤É EòÉè®ú´ÉÉWÉ ½þèÆ iÉÉä +É{É =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ½þÒ lÉä, iÉ¤É ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ ¨ÉÉ¨ÉÉ lÉä, +É{É <xÉEòä nù®ú¨ªÉÉxÉ lÉä* EòÉè®ú´ÉÉVÉ Eòä ¤ÉÒSÉ ºÉä ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ ¨ÉÉ¨ÉÉ ÊxÉEò±É MÉB, =xÉEòä ªÉ½þÉÆ VÉÉEò®ú {É½þÖÆSÉä* ¶ÉEòÖxÉÒ ¨ÉÉ¨ÉÉ EòÉ EªÉÉ EòÉ¨É ½þè, EªÉÉ ®úÉä±É ½þè, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ {ÉÚ®úÉ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þè* ´É½þ ®úÉä±É +nùÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ´É½þÉÆ MÉB* +SUôÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè, +ÉÊJÉ®ú ½þ®ú <ÆºÉÉxÉ +{ÉxÉä-+{ÉxÉä ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ºÉä ¤ÉÆvÉÉ ½þÖ+É ½þè* The individual interest has got the topmost place in one's life. Dr. Subramanian Swamy is not an exception to that.

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SÉÆpù º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ, ºÉÖ¥É½¨ÉhÉªÉ¨É º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ* b÷É. ºÉÖ¥É½¨ÉhªÉ¨É º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ (¨ÉnùÖ®úè): SÉÆpù º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ iÉÉä ¸ÉÒ +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ EòÉ nùÉäºiÉ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-{ÉÊ¶SÉ¨É): ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ* =ºÉ º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ +Éè®ú <ºÉ º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ JÉÉºÉ ¡òEòÇ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ iÉÉä ½þè, ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ* ÊEòºÉÒ xÉ ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ ¨ÉÉxÉEò®ú =xÉEòä {ÉÒUôä PÉÚ¨ÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÚÆ, ¨Éä®úÉ ÊEòºÉÒ Eòä {ÉÒUôä PÉÚ¨ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ =`öiÉÉ* +ÉVÉ VÉªÉ±ÉÊ±ÉiÉÉ VÉÒ xÉä ½þ¨ÉÉºÉä ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Ê´Énùc÷É Eò®ú Ê±ÉªÉÉ* {É½þ±Éä ÊnùxÉ ºÉä VÉ¤É ºÉä EòÉä±ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ, iÉ¤É ºÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä nùäJÉÉ, VÉªÉ±ÉÊ±ÉiÉÉ VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB =xÉEòÉä ÊFòÊ]õºÉÉ<VÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ªÉÊnù ¨ÉèÆ EòÖUô ¤ÉÉä±ÉÚÆMÉÉ iÉÉä =xÉEòÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* The mistakes have been committed by other people. But I will not commit the same mistakes. ±ÉäÊEòxÉ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ VÉ°ü®ú Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ªÉ½þÉÆ lÉÒÆ, iÉ¤É ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ±ÉÉäMÉ =xÉEòä {ÉÒUôä PÉÚ¨ÉiÉä lÉä* º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ, +ÉVÉ +É{ÉEòÒ ¤ÉnùÉè±ÉiÉ =xÉEòä >ð{É®ú BäºÉÉ |ÉºÉÆMÉ +ÉªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +¤É =xÉEòÉä ½þ®ú ´ªÉÊEiÉ Eòä PÉ®ú-PÉ®ú {É½þÖÆSÉxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ, +¦ÉÒ |ÉÉäºÉèºÉ ¶ÉÖ¯û ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè* ½þ¨É =xÉEòä {ÉÒUôä PÉÚ¨ÉiÉä lÉä +Éè®ú +¤É ´Éä +xªÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä {ÉÒUôä PÉÚ¨ÉäÆMÉä* +¤É ªÉ½þ º]õäVÉ +É MÉ<Ç ½þè EªÉÉäÆÊEò nùÉä ÊnùxÉ {É½þ±Éä ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò º]õä]õ¨ÉèÆ]õ {ÉgøxÉä EòÉä Ê¨É±ÉÉ ÊEò +ÉvÉÉ ÊnùxÉ <ÆiÉVÉÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉ´ÉVÉÚnù ¨ÉÖZÉä EòÉä<Ç Ê¨É±ÉxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉªÉÉ* 1.00 hrs. That gives the indication of future developments. <ºÉÊ±ÉB ªÉÊnù ªÉ½þ +SUôÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉ, º]õä]õ¨ÉäÆ]õ ¦ÉÒ BäºÉÉ +ÉªÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ` they will move the No-confidence Motion.' ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉ, EòÉèxÉ ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÚ´É Eò®úäMÉÉ, EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä, ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.B¨É. ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä, ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.+É<Ç. ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒ Eò®úäÆMÉä, iÉÉä EòÉèxÉ Eò®úäMÉÉ* º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉÉäSÉiÉä lÉä ÊEò º´ÉªÉÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä* ªÉÊnù º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ º´ÉªÉÆ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä 50 ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ, B¨É.{ÉÒWÉ. EòÉ ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Ê¨É±ÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB lÉÉ* <xÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ iÉÉä 18 +Éè®ú ´Éä, 19 ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú EòÉä<Ç xÉÉä EòÉìx¡òÒb÷äÆºÉ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ iÉÉä ¨ÉÚ´É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ lÉÉ, +xªÉ EòÉèxÉ nùºiÉJÉiÉ Eò®úäMÉÉ =ºÉEòä >ð{É®ú, ]õÒ.B¨É.ºÉÒ. ´ÉÉ±Éä Eò®úäÆMÉä, xÉ½þÒÆ, b÷Ò.B¨É.Eòä. ´ÉÉ±Éä Eò®úäÆMÉä, Ê¤É±EòÖ±É xÉ½þÒÆ, Ê¡ò®ú EòÉèxÉ Eò®úäMÉÉ, ]õÒ.b÷Ò.{ÉÒ. ´ÉÉ±Éä Eò®úäÆMÉä, xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä, EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ, ]õÒ.B¨É.ºÉÒ. ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ, ]õÒ.b÷Ò.{ÉÒ. ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ, ºÉÉ=lÉ Eòä +xªÉ EòÉä<Ç =xÉEòä {ÉÒUôä VÉÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* How is it going to materialise? I was just thinking over that. +ÉÊJÉ®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä BEò xÉÉä´Éä±É +É<Êb÷ªÉÉ ÊxÉEòÉ±ÉÉ, ºÉ¤É VÉ¨ÉÉ ½þÉäEò®ú ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ Eòä {ÉÉºÉ SÉ±Éä MÉªÉä +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ ÊEò xÉ½þÒÆ, =xÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉä, =xÉEòÒ iÉÉnùÉnù Eò¨É ½þÉä MÉ<Ç* Let them move the Confidence Motion, although in our Constitution and in our rules, there is no provision for the Confidence Motion. Ê¡ò®ú ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ xÉä Eò½þÉ, ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÉ {Éc÷É* We must respect him, he is the head of the entire nation. ±ÉäÊEòxÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É nùäxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ xÉä ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉÉäSÉÉ ÊEò VÉÉä |ÉºiÉÉ´É nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉÆ iÉEò `öÒEò ½þè* +É{É <iÉxÉÒ ¤Éc÷Ò iÉÉnùÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ EòÉìx¡òÒb÷äÆºÉ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ <ºÉ ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þÉä, ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉÉäSÉÉ ÊEò +É{É º´ÉªÉÆ ±ÉäEò®ú +ÉªÉäÆMÉä* xÉÉ¨É ÊxÉEò±ÉiÉä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉÉäSÉ ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ, BEò ÊnùxÉ ºÉÖ¥É½þ¨ÉhªÉ¨É º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ÊxÉEò±ÉÉ, º´ÉªÉÆ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ¤ÉxÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ, ¤Éc÷Ò JÉÖ¶ÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* b÷É. ºÉÖ¥É½¨ÉhªÉ¨É º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ : ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøÉ? ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-{ÉÊ¶SÉ¨É): xÉ½þÒÆ, ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòÒ xªÉÚVÉ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉiÉÒ ½þè, +xªÉ ÊEòºÉÒ +JÉ¤ÉÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ {ÉgøÉ* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ VÉ¤É +¨¨ÉÉ VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ SÉ±ÉÒ +É<ÇÆ iÉÉä =xÉºÉä {ÉÚUôÉ MÉªÉÉ ÊEò +É{É |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ¤ÉxÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ½þèÆ, she has not negated that. 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SÉÖxÉEò®ú +ÉiÉÉ ½þè =ºÉEòä ¨ÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ +Éè®ú <xÉEòä ¨ÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ JÉÉºÉ ¡òEòÇ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ®ú½þäÆ, Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ®ú½þäÆ, +SUôä ºÉÉÆºÉnù ®ú½þäÆ, <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ VÉÒ ½þèÆ, ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ VÉÒ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÉä {É½þ±Éä ¨ÉÉèEòÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ-ºÉÉlÉ ªÉ½þ ¦ÉÒ nùäJÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ÊEò ´Éä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ¤Éè`öäÆ +Éè®ú +xªÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ ¨ÉÉMÉÇnù¶ÉÇxÉ Eò®úäÆ* SHRI RAM RAGHUNATH CHAUDHARY (NAGAUR): Please come to the main point. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Yes, I am coming to the main point. VÉ¤É ¤ÉÉä¡òÉäºÉÇ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ VÉÒ EòÉ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ MÉÉè®ú ºÉä ºÉÖxÉ ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ±É¨¤ÉÉ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ nùä ÊnùªÉÉ, ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉä BÊ±ÉMÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉMÉÉ ÊnùB* ¨ÉÖZÉä ÊVÉºÉEòÒ VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ xÉ½þÒÆ lÉÒ ´É½þ +ÉVÉ VÉÉVÉÇ ºÉÉ½þ¤É xÉä nùä nùÒ* ´É½þÉÆ EòÉä<Ç <Æb÷ºÊ]ÅªÉ±É EòÉ{ÉÉäÇ®úä¶ÉxÉ Eòä SÉäªÉ®ú¨ÉèxÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þèÆ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä BEò Bb÷´É®ú]õÉ<VÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ ¦ÉÒ nùÒ, VÉÉä ¡òÉì®úäxÉ Eò¨{ÉxÉÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB nùÒ* Eò¨ªÉÖÊxÉº]õ ®úÉVÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¡òÉì®úäxÉ Eò¨{ÉÊxÉªÉÉÆ +ÉiÉÒ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB ºÉ¤É ºÉÖÊ´ÉvÉÉ nùÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè* ªÉ½þÉÆ VÉÉä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ ´É½þÉÆ VÉÉEò®ú =xÉEòÒ ¨ÉWÉ¨¨ÉiÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ ¦ÉÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ, ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÖZÉä +ÉVÉ {ÉiÉÉ ±ÉMÉÉ ½þè* VÉÉä Eò¨ªÉÖÊxÉº]õÉäÆ EòÒ xÉÒÊiÉ ½þè ´É½þ ¨Éä®úÒ VÉÉxÉEòÉ®úÒ ºÉä =ºÉEòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* +¦ÉÒ EòÉä<Ç xÉ<Ç xÉÒÊiÉ ¤ÉxÉ MÉ<Ç ½þÉäMÉÒ iÉÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEò ÊºÉ¡òÇ <xÉEòÉä ½þÒ ¤ÉÖ±ÉÉ nùÉä, ®úÉVÉ SÉ±ÉÉ nùÉä* ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ºÉ¤É ºÉ®ú¨ÉÉBnùÉ®ú ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ´É½þÉÆ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ´Éä ºÉ®ú¨ÉÉBnùÉ®ú +SUôä ±ÉÉäMÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, MÉ®úÒ¤ÉÉäÆ EòÉ JÉÚxÉ SÉÚºÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (Interruptions) This is the point I am making. Have you got any problem?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùÚÆMÉÉ, ¨Éä®úä Ê±ÉB EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ nùÉ VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±Éä lÉä, =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ =ºÉEòÒ iÉÉ®úÒJÉ 20 +|Éè±É, 1987 ½þè +Éè®ú +ÉVÉ EòÒ iÉÉ®úÒJÉ 17 +|Éè±É, 1999 ½þè* ´É½þ ¤ÉÉä±Éä lÉä-

"The common method or the modus operandi adopted as we had seen prior to Emergency also is to divert people's attention by making all sorts of loud noises regarding destabilization, etc." These were the allegations made against the Congress by Shri Somnath Chatterjee. +ÉVÉ EªÉÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè? +ÉVÉ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ VÉÒ Bb÷´ÉÉ<WÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉ MÉB ½þèÆ* ´É½þ Eò¦ÉÒ =`ö Eò®ú =xÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ SÉ±Éä VÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ* VÉÉä {±ÉÒÊb÷ÆMÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ nùÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉÖZÉä iÉÉVVÉÖ¤É ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè, EªÉÉ =xÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ BEºÉ{É]õÇ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, +É{ÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ ÊVÉiÉxÉä BEºÉ{É]õÇºÉ ½þèÆ =xÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ =xÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ BEºÉ{É]õÇºÉ ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ nùÉäxÉÉäÆ Eòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉlÉ b÷É±É Eò®ú +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøxÉä EòÒ xÉÒÊiÉ ¤ÉxÉ MÉ<Ç ½þè* ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉäSÉÉ®úÒ ¨É¨ÉiÉÉ VÉÒ ÊSÉ±±ÉÉiÉÒ ½þèÆ* <ºÉÊ±ÉB EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÉ BEò OÉÖ{É ´É½þÉÆ ºÉä ]õÚ]õ Eò®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ºÉä ¤ÉÉ½þ®ú ÊxÉEò±ÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´Éä +{ÉxÉä EòÉä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±Éä ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þÉÆ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Eò¨ªÉÖÊxÉº]õ ¦ÉÉ<Ç ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ, Eò®úÒ¤É 20-22 ºÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä ´Éäº]õ ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ =xÉEòÉ ®úÉVÉ SÉ±ÉiÉÉ ½þè* +ÉVÉ ´Éäº]õ ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É EòÒ EªÉÉ ={É±ÉÊ¤vÉªÉÉÆ ½þèÆ, ªÉä =x½þäÆ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* ½þ¨ÉxÉä <iÉxÉä ºÉÉ±É BEò º]õä]õ ¨ÉäÆ ®úÉVÉ ÊEòªÉÉ, ½þ¨ÉxÉä MÉ®úÒ¤ÉÉäÆ Eòä Ê±ÉB ªÉ½þ ÊEòªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ ´Éäº]õ ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É MÉªÉÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ nùä½þÉiÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ MÉªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ <xÉºÉä BEò ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ªÉ½þÉÆ ½þ®úäEò EòÒ +É±ÉÉäSÉxÉÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þÉä, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¦ÉÒ Eò®úÉä, ªÉ½þ +É{ÉEòÉ +ÊvÉEòÉ®ú ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùÉä ÊEò 22 ºÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ´Éäº]õ ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ nùä½þÉiÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ MÉ®úÒ¤ÉÉäÆ EòÉä EªÉÉ ¶ÉÉèSÉÉ±ÉªÉ Ê¨É±Éä, +É{ÉxÉä =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB {ÉÉxÉÒ EòÉ |É¤ÉÆvÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þ¨¨Énù +±ÉÒ +¶É®ú¡ò ¡òÉiÉ¨ÉÒ : +É{É ¨É½þÉ®úÉ¹]Å Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉB* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ¨ÉèÆ ¨É½þÉ®úÉ¹]Å EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) Do not worry. I will come to Bihar subsequently. ... ( ´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉ¤É ½þ¨É ´É½þÉÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ±É iÉEò ®úÉVÉ Eò®úäÆMÉä iÉ¤É +É{É ºÉ´ÉÉ±É Eò®úxÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þ¨¨Énù +±ÉÒ +¶É®ú¡ò ¡òÉiÉ¨ÉÒ : +É{ÉEòä xÉºÉÒ¤É ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : VÉ¤É xÉºÉÒ¤É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉBMÉÉ iÉ¤É nùäJÉ ±ÉäÆMÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{ÉEòä VÉÉä xÉºÉÒ¤É ¨ÉäÆ ½þè, +É{É VÉÉä Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ =ºÉä nùÖÊxÉªÉÉ nùäJÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ <xÉºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, They have been criticizing us like anything. So, whenever they come out with some criticism against any Government, it is absolutely necessary that they should also declare as to what they have done in their own States. (Interruptions) So, it is necessary for those people ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ ¤ÉÉ¤ÉÚ ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉÉ®úä ºÉ´ÉÉ±É Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆxÉä <xÉºÉä ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {ÉÚUôÉ* ªÉÊnù =x½þÉäÆxÉä +SUôÉ EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ iÉÉä =ºÉEòä +ÉÆEòc÷ä {Éä¶É Eò®úäÆ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉ½þ +SUôÉ EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ* That is one. ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´ÉèºÉÉ ºÉÖxÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ Eò¦ÉÒ +ÉªÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ +¨É®ú ®úÉªÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ (EòÚSÉÊ¤É½þÉ®ú): BEò SÉÒVÉ iÉÉä {ÉÊ¶SÉ¨É ¤ÉÆMÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè* ¦ÉÚÊ¨É-ºÉÖvÉÉ®ú ½þÖ+É ½þè +Éè®ú MÉ®úÒ¤É +Énù¨ÉÒ EòÉä {É^ä ¦ÉÒ nùä ÊnùB MÉªÉä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : VÉÉä +SUôä EòÉ¨É ½þÖB ½þèÆ =xÉEòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÒ iÉÉ®úÒ¡ò Eò°üÆMÉÉ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉÉä EòÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÖB ½þèÆ ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ +É±ÉÉäSÉxÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* I congratulated you. ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÖ<Ç, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´Éä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ´Éä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ½þÉäiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉVÉÉ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉ¤É ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú 11 VÉÖ±ÉÉ<Ç 1997 EòÉä ¤ÉVÉ]õ EòÉ ºÉjÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ, =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ SÉ]õVÉÒÇ xÉä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä {ÉÚUôÉ lÉÉ After 20 years of their rule what have they done in their own State and they are now criticising when our Government which has been in power for only l3 months. In l3 months, according to Shri Chatterjee, we should have completed all the items on the National Agenda for Governance. What have they done in 20 years? That is what I am asking. EªÉÉäÆ? ªÉÖxÉÉ<]õäb÷ £òÆ]õ EòÒ VÉÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú lÉÒ =ºÉEòÉä ºÉÖ{ÉÉä]õÇ =x½þÉäÆxÉä Ê´Énù-c÷É Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ ªÉ½þ ´ÉVÉ½þ lÉÒ* EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¤ÉVÉ]õ ºÉä +É{ÉEòÉ EªÉÉ iÉÉ±±ÉÖEò ½þè, BEò Eò]õ-¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ ±ÉÉiÉä, <iÉxÉÉ ¤ÉÊgøªÉÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ lÉÉ ´É½þ +É{ÉxÉä UôÉäc÷ ÊnùªÉÉ +Éè®ú +É{É ®úÉ¹]Å{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ Eòä {ÉÉºÉ SÉ±Éä MÉªÉä* +É{É EªÉÉ Êb÷¨ÉÉÆb÷ Eò®úiÉä ½þÉä* Shri Somnath Chatterjee said :

"The Budget is yet to be passed. We have now to think of novel methods of passing the Budget. The Speaker is worried. The hon. Rashtrapatiji, I believe, is also worried.

That was also a Budget Session. |ÉÉä. {ÉÒ.VÉä. EòÖÊ®úªÉxÉ : +É{É EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÒ EªÉÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þÉä, +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú :+É{ÉEòÉä ¨Éä®úä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä {É®ú EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ iÉÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* What is their demand? That "We should establish our majority by passing the vote of confidence motion." That is the thing. BäºÉÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ ÊxÉEòÉ±ÉEò®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä nùä¶É Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä EòÊ`öxÉÉ<ªÉÉÆ {ÉènùÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù (¨ÉvÉÖ¤ÉxÉÒ) : +É{É EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú EªÉÉäÆ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ, +É{É +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÊ½þªÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú :¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÒ Eò½þÉxÉÒ ¤ÉiÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ, +É{ÉEòä ÊEòªÉä ½þÖB EòÉªÉÉäÇÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* VÉ¤É Ê¶É´É¶ÉÆEò®ú VÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä EòÖÊ®úªÉxÉ VÉÒ, iÉ¤É iÉÉä +É{ÉxÉä =x½þäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ®úÉäEòÉ* b÷Éì. |É¦ÉÉ `öÉEòÖ®ú : +É{É BEò ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú EªÉÉäÆ nùÉä½þ®úÉ ®ú½þä ½þÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ¤É½þxÉVÉÒ, +É{ÉEòÉä EªÉÉ +É{ÉÊiiÉ ½þè* I am sure that he is worried. All of us are worried. "What will happen after the 3lst of May when the period of passing the Vote on Account will expire? How do we have a new Government before the 3lst May? If there is a dissolution how do you pass a new Vote on Account? Nobody gives any thought to this."

These were the questions and queries raised by Shri Somnath Chatterjee at that time on the llth April, l997. Why am I pointing out this? ¸ÉÒ ®úÉ¨É xÉÉ<ÇEò: +É{É <xÉºÉä EòÉä<Ç +xÉEòÊx´ÉÊxÉBÆ]õ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ¨ÉiÉ {ÉÚUôäÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ¨ÉèÆ VªÉÉnùÉ +xÉEòÊx´ÉÊxÉBÆ]õ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É xÉ½þÒÆ Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ¨ÉèÊ]õÊ®úªÉ±É ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚUôxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆxÉä <xpùVÉÒiÉ VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä MÉÉè®ú ºÉä ºÉÖxÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ´É½þ =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô Eò½þäÆMÉä ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =x½þÉäÆxÉä xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÉ* ®úÉVÉä¶É {ÉÉªÉ±É]õ VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ´É½þÒ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : VÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ ={ÉÊºlÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, +É{É =xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ MÉÖººÉÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÊ®úB* VÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þäÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : VÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ =xÉEòÉä EòÉä<Ç xÉ EòÉä<Ç VÉÉEò®ú ¤ÉiÉÉ nùäMÉÉ* <xpùVÉÒiÉ MÉÖ{iÉ VÉÒ xÉä =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ VÉÉä EòÖUô Eò½þÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ´É½þ ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* "People are not our slaves to expect that they will listen to whatever we tell them to do. Some people are very enthusiastic, I find, about the idea of elections again. I think that is the public posture that they are putting on. I have also some friends in BJP. I know many of them. I do not think they are enthusiastic or happy at all. But anyway it is normal and that is to be expected. I think, we have done a bad service to the country. I do not know if anything can still be done. Many hon. Members have made suggestions here that after today's proceedings are over, the voting is taken, the Government is defeated, Shri Deve Gowda has to submit his resignation, I presume, to the Rashtrapati. After that, what is the future? If there is time, let all people who have got the future of this country at heart sit together, talk and see if any way out can be evolved and do something by an agreement. I do not think it is beyond the bounds of possibility."

Regarding these elections also, he uttered some words. At that time, he was very unhappy. His Government was defeated twice by the Congress. Initially, when Shri Deve Gowda formed the United Front Government, at that time, I was standing over there and I told all these people, if you want to take care of somebody, then you have to take care of the Congress Party. The moment they will withdraw the support, you will go on the street. Again, there will be no Government in this country. This has become the trend of our country. Do the people of this country expect this kind of an approach to the democracy? Is it a form of democracy that we are having in our country? Is it the intention of the democracy that we will have to find out some excuse, remove the Government, destroy the Government, again go to the people and again face the elections? Once an M.P. is elected, in the normal course, he should be an M.P. for a period of five years.

AN HON. MEMBER: What have you done in 1997? ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä EòÖUô xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ* <x½þÉäÆxÉä ªÉÚxÉÉ<]õäb÷ £òÆ]õ EòÒ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉèÆ]õ EòÉä ÊxÉEòÉ±É ÊnùªÉÉ VÉ¤ÉÊEò nùä´ÉMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ +SUôÉ EòÉ¨É Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä* ´É½þ =`ö Eò®ú SÉ±Éä MÉB ½þèÆ* MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É VÉÒ xÉä ¦ÉÒ +SUôÉ EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä EòÉä<Ç JÉ®úÉ¤É EòÉ¨É ÊEòªÉÉ* =xÉEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ÊEòºÉ xÉä ÊMÉ®úÉªÉÉ? ´É½þ ÊEòºÉ Eòä EòÆvÉä {É®ú ¤Éè`öä lÉä +Éè®ú ÊEòºÉ xÉä EòÆvÉÉ ÊxÉEòÉ±É ÊnùªÉÉ? ªÉ½þ ºÉÉäSÉxÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ EòÆvÉÉ ÊxÉEòÉ±ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ºÉÖ¥É½þ¨ÉhªÉ¨É º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉªÉ±ÉÊ±ÉiÉÉ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú +¦ÉÒ +É{ÉEòä {ÉÉºÉ {É½þÖÆSÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ* <ºÉ +ÉvÉÉ®ú {É®ú ´É½þ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* =xÉEòÉ ªÉ½þ ºÉ{ÉxÉÉ ¨ÉÖZÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ÊEò ¨ÉèÊ]õÊ®úªÉ±ÉÉ<VÉ ½þÉäxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ½þè* (Interruptions). No. You are having the sweet dreams that you will have your Government and all the parties together will go into the Cabinet. However, I am sure, this Government will not be defeated by such a combination. It is not possible. You will see the result tomorrow.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): Today.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : It is all right, today. ...(Interruptions). We are not at all confused.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please conclude now.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :Sir, I have heard practically everybody. Please allow me to speak just for a couple of minutes.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : He is speaking in our favour, Sir, so he should be allowed to speak.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :I always pray for Shri Swamy. He is an intellectual. He is capable of doing and undoing anything. And since he is especially spoiling the situation, I shall again tell all my Congress friends that he is a leader and he will be taking them to all other people and then he will lead them.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Sirpotdar Ji, you are wasting your time with Swamy.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : No, I am not wasting my time. As you know, Sir, Swamy is in the central position. He convinced Jayalalitha Ji. He brought the messages. He was moving all over the country. He was going to Sonia Ji. He was going practically to the BSP people also. He had gone there to convince them. I have seen his photograph on TV. He was offering some shawl to Kashi Ram Ji. I have seen that. Let him deny.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Again you are going off the track.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +É{ÉEòÉä ªÉÉnù ½þÉäMÉÉ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ Ê½þxnùÚ Eò±SÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ xÉÉ®únù EòÉ ®úÉä±É lÉÉ* SHRI HANNAN MOLLAH (ULUBERIA): Are you speaking on the Motion of No-Confidence against Shri Swamy?

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :I am speaking on the prevailing condition of this country, about the political developments.

Now, Sir, here is one more version of Shri Indrajit Gupta ...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: One version is sufficient.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : He said:

"On that, I wish to say finally that with all my experience in these years in Parliament, I never witnessed such an extraordinary thing, that is, the supporting party, which was a party that run the Government of this country for the last almost fifty years and which has so many Members here, declared on the floor of this House that they will unconditionally support a Government formed by secular forces. Of course, they have got the right to withdraw their support, but they have not got the right to keep the House in the dark. They must tell us as to why they have done this and they must try to justify it. They cannot keep quiet like this. It is an insult to the Parliament. Therefore, I hope that even at this late stage, some senior Member of the Congress Party should at least try to inform the House as to what the mystery behind this whole thing is."

This was the statement made by Shri Indrajit Gupta. He was not aware as to why that support was withdrawn. Shri Rajesh Pilot is not here. He had made some statement in the House. We know because we were here. Shri Natwar Singh was not here, so he will not know it. But some people here like Shri Shivraj Patil know all these developments.

Shri Sharad Pawar has brought out a number of points here. Now I shall deal with all those things.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Do not deal with all those things. There is no time for that.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :At least now one should not look at the watch because when all these members were delivering their own views, no one had at that time looked at the watch, although I had been reminding the Chair about that. I was just showing them my watch. An hon. Member of a party having only three Members in the House, was allowed to speak for more than one hour. Why should it happen like this?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We do not have time, otherwise we could have spent more time. We still have another 15-20 Members to speak. Till morning we may have to go like this. Please understand all that.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :If you ask me, I shall sit down. I shall not utter a single word.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I know that. That is why I am requesting you.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR: But I would like to keep one thing on record...(Interruptions) I am not yielding. If you want to say anything, you can say. I will not yield. b÷Éì. |É¦ÉÉ `öÉEòÖ®ú:={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ Eòä´É±É BEò ¶Éä®ú Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÒ ½þÚÆ: VÉ¤É ºÉ±ÉÒ¤ÉÉäÆ Eòä Eò®úÒ¤É +ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ, iÉ¤É EòÉªÉnùä-EòÉxÉÚxÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉÉxÉä ±ÉMÉä ½þèÆ* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : <ºÉ ¶Éä®ú EòÉ EòÖUô ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ½þÉäiÉÉ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ºÉEòiÉÉ* =xÉEòÉä {ÉiÉÉ ½þè* You can see the faces of all these people. Just see the number of people who are seated over there. They are fully confident that they are going to be defeated, they will not succeed. Because of that, no one wants to sit over here. They go out. ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ¤ÉÉä±Éä lÉä* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É Eòä +Ænù®ú =tÉäMÉ, +ÉÊlÉÇEò ÊºlÉÊiÉ, {É®ú®úÉ¹]Å xÉÒÊiÉ, ¤Éä®úÉäVÉMÉÉ®úÒ, ¶ÉÖMÉ®ú EòÒ ÊºlÉÊiÉ, SÉÒxÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ, <ÇºÉÉ<ÇªÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ lÉÒ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä <ÇºÉÉ<Ç +Éè®ú ºÉäEªÉÚ±É®ú <xÉ nùÉä SÉÒVÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ {É½þ±Éä BEò ¤ÉÉ®ú Eò½þÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú +ÉVÉ ¦ÉÒ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ ½þ®ú ´ªÉÊEiÉ ÊEòºÉÒ xÉ ÊEòºÉÒ VÉÉÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉènùÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* VÉx¨É ±ÉäxÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ Eòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, Eò¨ÉÇ ½þ®úäEò Eòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò not a single person in this entire House is secular. ÊEòºÉÒ xÉ ÊEòºÉÒ ¨ÉÉÆ-¤ÉÉ{É Eòä ªÉ½þÉÆ VÉx¨É Ê±ÉªÉÉ* ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ ½þè, Ê½þxnùÚ ½þè iÉÉä Ê½þxnùÚ ½þè, <ÇºÉÉ<Ç ½þè iÉÉä <ÇºÉÉ<Ç ½þè, +xªÉ VÉÉÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉènùÉ ½þÖ+É iÉÉä =ºÉ VÉÉÊiÉ EòÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* ¨ÉMÉ®ú =ºÉ <ÆºÉÉxÉ EòÉä Eò¨ÉÇ ºÉä {É½þSÉÉxÉÉ VÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* +ÉVÉEò±É EªÉÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè?

What is secularism? What I could understand very little about secularism is ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉÒ ½þè ÊEò ½þ®úäEò <ÆºÉÉxÉ EòÉä +{ÉxÉä vÉ¨ÉÇ EòÉ {ÉÉ±ÉxÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉ½þÉÆ nùä¶É EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {ÉènùÉ ½þÉä VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè, iÉ¤É ºÉ¦ÉÒ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä Ê¨É±ÉEò®ú, <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä {ªÉÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ½þÉlÉ ºÉä ½þÉlÉ Ê¨É±ÉÉEò®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä ¤ÉSÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* That is called secularism. There is no meaning of secularism other than that. One should not consider that this man is a Muslim and so, he is a minority, this man is a Christian and so, he should be considered as a minority, this man is a Neo-Buddhist and so, he should be considered as a minority. One should not have that consideration at all. Let us see the persons who are staying here in this country and those who have got love and regard for this country. Love and regard are very essential and important. ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ EªÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ? +É{ÉºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ZÉMÉc÷É Eò®úÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ºÉäEªÉÚ±É®ú +Éè®ú Eò¨ªÉÚxÉ±É EòÉ EòxÉºÉä{]õ ¤ÉxÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* <ÇºÉÉ<ªÉÉäÆ EòÉ EòÖUô ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ iÉÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä ¤±Éä¨É Eò®úÉä* =c÷ÒºÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä EòÖUô ½þÖ+É =ºÉºÉä ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ VÉxÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉ EòÉä<Ç ºÉÆ¤ÉÆvÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ´É½þÉÆ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä VÉ±ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ +Éè®ú VÉÉä PÉ]õxÉÉBÆ ½þÖ<ÇÆ, ´ÉèºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉÉä nùÉä¹ÉÒ ½þèÆ, =xÉEòÉä {ÉEòc÷xÉä EòÉ EòÉ¨É ÊEòºÉEòÉ lÉÉ? º]õä]õ MÉ´ÉxÉÇ¨ÉäÆ]õ EòÉ EòÉ¨É lÉÉ* +ÉVÉ iÉEò xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉEòc÷É* b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù (¨ÉvÉÖ¤ÉxÉÒ) : ¸ÉÒEÞò¹hÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ EòÒ VÉÉä Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ +É<Ç =ºÉEòÉ EªÉÉ ½þÖ+É? =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòÉ +Éè®ú `öÉEò®úä ºÉÉ½þ¤É EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR:I have said that if they want to discuss about Srikrishna Commission Report, I am open. b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù :¸ÉÒEÞò¹hÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ EòÒ Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ½þè ÊEò +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä nùÆMÉÉ ¦Éc÷EòÉªÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ½þiªÉÉBÆ Eò®ú´ÉÉ<Ç ½þèÆ* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ +É{É EòÖUô ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉä* =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É ½þè ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú VÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú :+É{É +MÉ®ú ½þ¨ÉäÆ =ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®ú Eò®úäÆMÉä iÉÉä ¦ÉÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ EòÉä ¦ÉÉ®úÒ {Éc÷äMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ ¸ÉÒEÞò¹hÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ Eòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä MÉªÉÉ lÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ º´ÉªÉÆ MÉªÉÉ lÉÉ* I had filed my affidavit. He never summoned me as a witness. (Interruptions) +É{ÉEòÉä ¡òèE]ºÉ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉiÉÉ ½þèÆ iÉÉä xÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆ, ¨ÉMÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆ ¤É½þºÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB Eò¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÒ iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þÚÆ* As far as Srikrishna Commission Report is concerned, I am very open. I was very open in the presence of Srikrishna also because I have deposed before him for not less than 15 days. I was examined and cross-examined also. After completion of the Report, I told Srikrishna one thing that I had filed my affidavit in order to help this Commission, but he had been treating me like a criminal only because of this and he should not. If he is ...(Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +¦ÉÒ ¨ÉÉäiÉÒ±ÉÉ±É VÉÒ EòÉä PÉc÷Ò EòÒ ªÉÉnù +É MÉ<Ç* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÖ¤É½þ iÉEò ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ* +¦ÉÒ PÉc÷Ò xÉ½þÒÆ nùäÊJÉªÉä* {É½þ±Éä ºÉä PÉc÷Ò nùäJÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB lÉÒ* ½þ®ú ¨Éä¨¤É®ú Eòä ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ¨ÉäÆ nùäJÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB lÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ xÉä VÉÉä {ÉÚ®úÉ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä iÉÉVVÉÖ¤É ½þÖ+É ÊEò BEò PÉÆ]õä Eòä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ EòÒ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùÉä iÉÒxÉ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ BäºÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò VÉ¤É ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB =`öiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä {É½þ±Éä ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò ¸ÉÒ ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ ½þèÆ, ¸ÉÒ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ SÉ]õVÉÒÇ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú +xªÉ ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ* Ê¤ÉxÉÉ ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ Eòä ¨ÉÖqä Eòä ´Éä +ÉMÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ* =x½þäÆ <iÉxÉÉ ºÉnù¨ÉÉ {É½þÖÆSÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ BEò ¤ÉÉ®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É Eòä ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉ =ºÉä ¦ÉÚ±É MÉªÉä, ¤ÉÉ¤É®úÒ ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä ªÉÉnù ¦ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ªÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ =ºÉä ¦ÉÚ±ÉxÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú =ºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ÊxÉEòÉ±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ]õÉ<¨É Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ºÉÉäÊSÉªÉä* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +É{É Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ¤Éè`ö VÉÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* I have undertaken some exercise of preparation. I have been sitting here since day before yesterday. All the hours of the day I have been sitting here.

... (Interruptions) +É{É EªÉÉäÆ ¤Éè`öäÆMÉä, +É{É ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÊ®úªÉä, ¨ÉèÆ ¤Éè`öÚÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ Eòä. ¤ÉÉ{ÉÒ®úÉVÉÚ (xÉ®úºÉÉ{ÉÖ®ú) : ½þ¨É +É{ÉEòÉä ºÉÖxÉxÉä +ÉªÉä ½þèÆ ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú :¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ SÉèxÉ ºÉä ºÉÖxÉÚÆMÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +¦ÉÒ ¸ÉÒ nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ EòÒ º{ÉÒSÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úEòä SÉ±Éä MÉªÉä* ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ¨É½þi´É{ÉÚhÉÇ ½þè +Éè®ú EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ºÉä iÉÉ±±ÉÖEò ®úJÉiÉÒ ½þè* +ÉVÉ nùÉäxÉÉäÆ ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ, ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´É½þÒ nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±Éä lÉä, ´É½þ +É{ÉEòÉä ¤ÉiÉÉxÉÉ VÉ°ü®úÒ ½þè, xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä BäºÉä EòèºÉä SÉ±ÉäMÉÉ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +¤É +É{É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : ¨ÉèÆ +¦ÉÒ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* +¦ÉÒ +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =x½þäÆ ¦ÉÒ |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉ nùÉä, EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* BEò ¤ÉÉ®ú nùä´ÉäMÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ VÉÉä EòÖUô ¤ÉÉä±Éä lÉä, ¶ÉÉªÉnù +É{ÉEòÉä ªÉÉnù xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : =x½þäÆ ªÉÉnù ½þÉäMÉÉ, ªÉ½þ +¦ÉÒ-+¦ÉÒ ½þÖ+É ½þè, ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä ªÉÉnù ½þè* DR. SHAKEEL AHMAD : Sir, I am on a point of order?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Under what rule are you raising your point of order?

DR. SHAKEEL AHMAD : It is under Rule 356 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in the House. Rule 356 says:

"The Speaker, after having called the attention of the House to the conduct of a member who persists in irrelevance or in tedious repetition either of his own arguments or of the arguments used by other members in debate, may direct him to discontinue his speech."

This is my request only, Sir.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Sirpotdar, please conclude now. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +É{É =x½þäÆ °ü±ºÉ `öÒEò ºÉä ºÉ¨ÉZÉxÉä EòÉä EòÊ½þªÉä, =x½þäÆ °ü±ºÉ EòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè, EòÉä]õ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éìb÷Ç®ú ÊxÉEòÉ±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ* b÷É. +½þ¨Énù +¦ÉÒ +É{ÉEòÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ EòÖUô ºÉÒJÉxÉÉ ½þè* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú VÉÒ, +¤É +É{É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÒÊVÉB* I will quote what Shri Devegowda had said and conclude, Sir. I am trying to finish my speech since they are not anxious to hear me. Shri Devegowda had said:

"I am never afraid of anybody who wants to play a bullying politics. I may be a calm man outwardly but if I start fighting, then I have already shown in Karnataka as to what I can do. Now, I am going to show that Devegowda is with support of my United Front. Somebody wants to crack it. It is because if it cracks, then only they can push through as they are the only alternative party. But we would not allow to crack."

This was the threat given by Shri Devegowda to the Congress Party. It was a challenge.

SHRI BHUBANESWAR KALITA (GUWAHATI): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, may I know from which document the hon. Member is reading?

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Sir, I have just read a part of Shri Devegowda's speech made on 11-4-1997 on the floor of the House. I read it out for the information of the hon. Member who was not in the House at that time.

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS, MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PLANNING AND PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTATION (SHRI RAM NAIK): Sir, how can the hon. Member speak if he is interrupted after every sentence? After all, he is the leader of a Party. There should be some decency on the part of the hon. Members. ¸ÉÒ Ê´ÉVÉªÉ MÉÉäªÉ±É (SÉÉÆnùxÉÒ SÉÉèEò): ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ Êb÷¤Éä]õ EòÉä ºÉÒÊ®úªÉºÉ±ÉÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ±Éä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ªÉÉ iÉÉä <x½þäÆ Ê®úVÉ±]õ {ÉiÉÉ ±ÉMÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò EòÖUô ½þÉäxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè +Éè®ú Êb÷¤Éä]õ EòÉä ±É¨¤ÉÉ Eò®úÉä, +É{É ÊVÉiÉxÉÉ ®úèº]õ±ÉèºÉ ½þÉäMÉä, =iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ ±É¨¤ÉÉ Eò®úäÆMÉä* SHRI P. SANKARAN (CALICUT): Sir, they were interrupting Shri Somnath Chatterjee after every sentence. He was also a senior leader.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : You should appreciate the fact that I have not interrupted him.

SHRI MOTILAL VORA (RAJNANDGAON): Sir, it is wrong to say that Congress is not interested in the debate. Senior leaders of the party are sitting here waiting to participate in the debate. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú : +¦ÉÒ ¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ ªÉÉnù´É ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, lÉÉäc÷É =xÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä nùäÆ* PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): It is 1.30 AM. There should be some time limit for the speaker.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Now you woke up. ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ +ÉiÉä ½þèÆ, ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ, ¨ÉVÉÉEò Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ b÷ä¨ÉÉäFòäºÉÒ Eòä +Ænù®ú VÉ¤É ]õèÆ¶ÉxÉ ½þÉä VÉÉiÉÒ ½þè iÉÉä EòÉä<Ç ½þÆºÉÒ EòÉ ´ÉÉEªÉ UôÉäc÷ nùäiÉÉ ½þè, iÉÉä ´É½þ +SUôÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ´Éä EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ?

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : How much time you need?

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Have you taken this stand during the last two days at any time?

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : You should know that it is now 2.00 AM.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : That is not my fault.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You address the Chair and conclude now. ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þÖB ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ xÉä BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ lÉÒ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò =xÉEòÒ {ÉixÉÒ Ê¤É½þÉ®ú EòÒ ºÉÖ{ÉÖjÉÒ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆxÉä =xÉEòÉä SÉÒ¡ò Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ¤ÉxÉÉªÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ ±ÉÉ±ÉÚ VÉÒ ºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ´Éä ½þÉ=ºÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ, xÉ½þÒÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä {ÉÚUôiÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ½þ¨ÉxÉä {É½þ±Éä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò VÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉiÉ ¤ÉÉäÊ±ÉªÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :It is not my fault. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉvÉÖEò®ú ºÉ®ú{ÉÉäiÉnùÉ®ú (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-{ÉÊ¶SÉ¨É): Ê¤É½þÉ®ú EòÒ EªÉÉ ½þÉ±ÉiÉ Eò®ú nùÒ? ¡òÉiÉ¨ÉÒ ºÉÉ½þ¤É ´É½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ Ê¤É½þÉ®ú Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùÚÆMÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Ê¤É½þÉ®ú EòÒ ªÉ½þ ½þÉ±ÉiÉ ¤ÉxÉÉEò®ú ®úJÉÒ ½þè, 11 ºÉÉ±É ºÉä =xÉEòÉ ®úÉVÉ ´É½þÉÆ {É®ú ½þè* 11 ºÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ {ÉÚ®úä Ê¤É½þÉ®ú EòÉ ºÉiªÉÉxÉÉ¶É Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ* Ê¤É½þÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç ®úÉäVÉÒ-®úÉä]õÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, EòÉä<Ç <Æb÷º]ÅÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, {ÉÒxÉä Eòä {ÉÉxÉÒ EòÉ |É¤ÉÆvÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, MÉ®úÒ¤ÉÉä EòÉä EòÉä<Ç ºÉÖÊ´ÉvÉÉ |ÉÉ{iÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* <ºÉEòä +±ÉÉ´ÉÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉä VÉÉä {ÉèºÉÉ ´É½þÉÆ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè =ºÉEòÉ ¦ÉÒ Ê¨ÉºÉªÉÚVÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè* Eò¦ÉÒ-¦ÉÒ =ºÉ {ÉèºÉä EòÉ ªÉÚVÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè* nùÊ±ÉiÉÉäÆ EòÒ ´É½þÉÆ {É®ú ½þiªÉÉ EòÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þèÆ* ´É½þÉÆ ½þ®ú ÊEòº¨É EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè Ê¡ò®ú ¦ÉÒ ªÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ +ÉEò®ú Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þÉÆ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä £òèÆb÷ ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =xÉEòÒ ½þÉ±ÉiÉ +ÉVÉ BäºÉÒ ½þè ÊEò xÉ PÉ®ú EòÉ xÉ PÉÉ]õ EòÉ* +MÉ®ú ªÉä =ºÉ iÉ®ú¡ò VÉÉªÉäÆMÉä iÉÉä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±Éä EòÉ]õäÆMÉä +Éè®ú <ºÉ iÉ®ú¡ò VÉÉªÉäÆMÉä iÉÉä ºÉÒ.{ÉÒ.+É<Ç. ´ÉÉ±Éä EòÉ]õäÆMÉä* ªÉä VÉÉä £òèÆb÷ ¤ÉxÉÉxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ¨Éä®úÉ <iÉxÉÉ ½þÒ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ £òèÆb÷ ºÉä EªÉÉ ½þÉäxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ÊEòiÉxÉä ÊnùxÉ ªÉ½þ £òèÆb÷Ê¶É{É SÉ±ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ½þè? ¨ÉÖZÉä ±ÉMÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ EòÒ xÉÒÊiÉ ½þè ÊEò =ºÉä £òèÆb÷ ¤ÉxÉÉ ±ÉÉä +Éè®ú SÉÆnù ¨É½þÒxÉä Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ÊMÉ®úÉ nùÉä +Éè®ú SÉÖxÉÉ´É Êb÷E±ÉäªÉ®ú Eò®úÉä* SÉÖxÉÉ´É BEò JÉä±É ¤ÉxÉxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* nùä¶É EòÒ {ÉÚ®úÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ JªÉÉ±É VÉ°ü®ú Eò®úä* SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :Nobody is supposed to listen to me. +Éè®ú EªÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB* {ÉÚ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ VÉxÉiÉÉ nùäJÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè ÊEò EòÉèxÉ ºÉÉ JÉä±É ªÉ½þ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±Éä +{ÉxÉä ºÉÉÊlÉªÉÉäÆ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú JÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* They are playing with the life of this country. ªÉ½þ JÉä±É +SUôÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* EòÉì¨ÉxÉ ¨ÉèxÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä {ÉÉºÉ EªÉÉ |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É ½þè? MÉ®úÒ¤É VÉxÉiÉÉ EòÒ ½þ¨É EòÉèxÉ ºÉÒ nùäJÉ¦ÉÉ±É Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ? +xÉ<¨{É±ÉÉªÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ EòÉ <±ÉÉVÉ EªÉÉ ½þè? ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú Eò±É ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ JÉc÷ä ½þÉäEò®ú Eò½þ ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò Ênù EòÉä®ú¨É +Éì¡ò nùÒ {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ, iÉÒxÉ ¤ÉÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ SÉÉ®ú ¤ÉÉ®ú ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ xÉä +ÉºÉxÉ {É®ú ¤Éè`öEò®ú Eò½þÉ lÉÉ* "I am ashamed of occupying this seat only because of indisciplinary activities within the House." ªÉÊnù BäºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ lÉÒ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÆMÉ¨ÉÉ VÉÒ ºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò º{Éè¶É±É ºÉè¶ÉxÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ, º{Éè¶É±É ºÉè¶ÉxÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù BEò ®úèVÉÉä±ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ {ÉÉºÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ +Éè®ú =ºÉ ®úèVÉÉä±ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ Eòä nùÉè®úÉxÉ {É½þ±ÉÉ ®úèVÉÉä±ªÉÚ¶ÉxÉ ªÉ½þ lÉÉ ÊEò EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ ´Éä±É ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ +ÉBMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ºÉä {ÉÚUôxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ´Éä±É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉxÉä EòÉ Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç ÊEòºÉxÉä ¥ÉäEò ÊEòªÉÉ? =ºÉ {É®ú ¸ÉÒ ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú Eòä nùºiÉJiÉ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ Eòä VÉÉä ¨Éè¨¤É®ú lÉä, =xÉ ºÉ¤ÉEòä nùºiÉJiÉ lÉä* +É{É ºÉ¤ÉºÉä {É½þ±Éä EòÉxÉÚxÉ iÉÉäc÷iÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ´Éä±É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉä ½þèÆ* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù E´Éä¶SÉxÉ +Éì´É®ú ºÉº{ÉèÆb÷ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä, BäºÉÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É ¨ÉÆVÉÚ®ú Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ* {É½þ±ÉÉ E´Éä¶SÉxÉ +Éì´É®ú ºÉº{ÉèÆb÷ Eò®úxÉä EòÉ xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ ÊEòºÉxÉä ÊnùªÉÉ, EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ xÉä ÊnùªÉÉ* +ÉVÉ ºÉÖ¤É½þ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ 100 Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉªÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ MÉ<Ç* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ EªÉÉäÆÊEò ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ VÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ =xÉEòÉä ªÉ½þ {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ±ÉMÉÉ ÊEò +É{ÉxÉä MÉÖººÉÉ EªÉÉäÆ ÊEòªÉÉ? EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±Éä Eòä´É±É 100 Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉªÉä EòÉ §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®ú ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ? ½þVÉÉ®úÉäÆ Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉªÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä iÉÉä EòÖUô <VVÉiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ* 100 Eò®úÉäc÷ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, {ÉÚ®úÉ Ê®úEòÉÇb÷ VÉÖ¤ÉÉxÉ JÉÉä±É±ÉEò®ú nùäJÉ ±ÉÉä* +É{É ºÉÖJÉ®úÉ¨É VÉÒ EòÉ xÉÉ¨É ±ÉäiÉä ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þ ÊEòiÉxÉÉ ¤Éc÷É §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú ½þè* ªÉÚÊ®úªÉÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ±Éä ±ÉäÆ, ÊEòiÉxÉÉ ¤Éc÷É PÉÉä]õÉ±ÉÉ ½þè* ¤ÉÉä¡òÉäºÉÇ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ nùäJÉäÆ VÉÉä ºÉÉè Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉªÉä Eòä +Ænù®ú lÉÉ* BEò ½þVÉÉ®ú Eò®úÉäc÷ ¯û{ÉªÉä ºÉä xÉÒSÉä EòÉä<Ç ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ ªÉÉxÉÒ <iÉxÉÒ UôÉä]õÒ ®úEò¨É Eòä Ê±ÉB EòÉä<Ç §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®úäMÉÉ, <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ {É®ú ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä ¦É®úÉäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ªÉÊnù §É¹]õÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®úxÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ ¤Éc÷Ò iÉÉnùÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ®úEò¨É ±ÉÚ]õ ±ÉÉä, ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉä ÊEò +É{É Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ Ê¤É`öÉBÆ, VÉä.{ÉÒ.ºÉÒ. Ê¤É`öÉBÆ, ºÉ¤É EòÖUô Eò®úäÆ, ªÉ½þ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{ÉEòÉä, ½þ¨ÉEòÉä +Éè®ú ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä nùä¶É EòÉä +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøÉxÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ªÉÊnù nùä¶É EòÉä +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøÉxÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä I know that there are are a number of good people. In congress party I know each and every person individually. There are very good persons. ±ÉäÊEòxÉ PÉÖ]õxÉä ]õäEòxÉä ºÉä EòÉ¨É +ÉMÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉgøäMÉÉ* `{É®únùäÊºÉªÉÉäÆ ºÉä xÉ +ÊJÉªÉÉÆ Ê¨É±ÉÉxÉÉ' ¨ÉÖZÉä ªÉ½þ MÉÉxÉÉ ªÉÉnù +É ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ªÉä +ÊJÉªÉÉÆ Ê¨É±ÉÉxÉä EòÉ VÉÉä EòÉ¨É SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ ½þè, ´É½þ ¦ÉÒ {É®únùä¶ÉÒ ºÉä ¨Éä®úÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ´ÉÉ±ÉÉäÆ ºÉä ½þ¨¤É±É Ê®úE´Éèº]õ ½þè ÊEò nùä¶É EòÉä +ÉMÉä ±Éä VÉÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò®úäÆ* ½þ¨É ½þ®ú +SUôä EòÉ¨É Eòä Ê±ÉB +É{ÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ®ú½þäÆMÉä, ®ú½þä ¦ÉÒ ½þèÆ, +É{ÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ VÉÉä EòÉ¨É Eò®úxÉÉ lÉÉ ´É½þ EòÉ¨É Eò®úEòä ¤ÉiÉÉªÉÉ ½þè* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{ÉEòÉ ®úÉºiÉÉ MÉ±ÉiÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ÊEòºÉEòÉä ºÉÉlÉ ±Éä VÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =ºÉEòÒ iÉ±ÉÉ¶É Eò®úäÆ +Éè®ú ÊVÉxÉEòÉä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉlÉ ¤ÉgøÉEò®ú +ÉMÉä ±Éä VÉÉBÆMÉä, =xÉEòÉä vÉÉäJÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùäxÉÉ* ªÉÊnù +É{É vÉÉäJÉÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä <ºÉºÉä nùä¶É EòÉä vÉÉäJÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, ªÉÊnù nùä¶É EòÉä vÉÉäJÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä VÉxÉiÉÉ EòÉä vÉÉäJÉÉ ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú VÉxÉiÉÉ ªÉ½þ vÉÉäJÉÉ Eò¦ÉÒ ¤ÉnùÉÇ¶iÉ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ½þè* <xÉ ¶É¤nùÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉèÆ +É{É ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù nùäxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* Êb÷{]õÒ º{ÉÒEò®ú ºÉÉ½þ¤É, +É{ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ÊnùªÉÉ, <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù* ºÉÉlÉ ½þÒ ¨ÉèÆxÉä {É½þ±Éä ¦ÉÒ Eò½þÉ +Éè®ú nùÖ¤ÉÉ®úÉ Eò½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉ |ÉºiÉÉ´É EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ¸ÉÒ ®úÉ¨ÉnùÉºÉ +`öÉ´É±Éä (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç =iiÉ®ú-¨ÉvªÉ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ½þ¨ÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ Eò¤É Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* nùÉä ¤ÉVÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä ½þèÆ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{ÉEòÉä ¦ÉÒ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You will get your chance.

SHRI NATWAR SINGH (BHARATPUR): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I will not take much of the time of the House as it is quarter to two in the morning and distinguished Members like Shri Indrajit Gupta, Shri Chidambaram, Shri Sangma and Shri Sharad Pawar have done a very good job of demolition of this Government and its non-performance.

I think, the speech made by Shri Indrajit Gupta was one of the outstanding Parliamentary performances of recent years. I saw the Ministers of this gathbandhan sarkar squirm in their seats as he spoke because they could not answer a single point.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Prime Minister will answer.

SHRI NATWAR SINGH: He will probably leave permanently tomorrow.

Their agenda promised a stable Government and an able leadership. We will tell you what stability is. We ruled in the Centre for 42 years; you ruled for 13 days and talked about the principle that you will not join any coalition. Shri Sangma made a prophetic statement last year. What happened thirteen months ago? A caterpillar Government of 18 motley parties with nothing in common got together. Your performance has been so dismal that it is pathetic. You know it.

Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee's name would have gone down in history as a great leader and politician if he had not become the Prime Minister of India because he has been an utter failure as the Prime Minister of India. His ineptitude, I will elaborate upon.

Let us first talk about `a stable and an able Government'.

About stability, we have just seen. They are living on daily wages for the last 13 months! Now, we will see about his ability.

Here is a Prime Minister who has been in Parliament for 45 years and he writes a letter to the President of the United States in the month of May 1998 to give an explanation as to why Pokhran-II was undertaken. The President of China did not write to Mr. Clinton in 1995-96 when they exploded; the President of France did not write to Mr. Clinton to say that there was a threat from Germany, or China did not say that there was a threat from Russia. But Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee writes to Mr. Clinton instead of calling a special Session of this House. He owed an explanation to this House and not to Mr. Clinton. And what does he write to Mr. Clinton? I would like him to come and sit here. He signed a letter in which two countries were named. ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉÆEò®ú |ÉºÉÉnù VÉÉªÉºÉ´ÉÉ±É (´ÉÉ®úÉhÉºÉÒ): +É{ÉEòä xÉäiÉÉ xÉä iÉÉä +¨ÉäÊ®úEòÉ Eòä nù¤ÉÉ´É ¨ÉäÆ {É®úÒIÉhÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ, ÊVÉºÉ xÉäiÉÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ +É{É Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ Eòä.xÉ]õ´É®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ: nùäÊJÉªÉä, ¨ÉèÆxÉä +É{ÉEòä ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±Éä EòÉä ðÆMÉÉ +É{ÉEòÉä* ¦ÉÉ<ÇVÉÉxÉ, +É{É iÉÉä {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ, ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò¤É +ÉªÉä, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ iÉÉä <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ÊVÉÆnùMÉÒ Eò]õ MÉ<Ç, VÉ®úÉ ºÉÖxÉ ±ÉÉä* ½þ¨É iÉÉä +ÉVÉ iÉEò ºÉÒJÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, +É{É ºÉÒJÉxÉä EòÉä iÉèªÉÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ EªÉÉ Eò°üÆ* |ÉÉ<¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú ºÉÉ½þ¤É {ÉjÉ Ê±ÉJÉiÉä ½þèÆ* EªÉÉ Ê±ÉJÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ºÉÉ½þ¤É ½þ¨ÉäÆ JÉiÉ®úÉ ½þè, BEò ¨ÉÖ±Eò ºÉä xªÉÚÊE±ÉªÉ®ú EòÉ, nùÚºÉ®úä ¨ÉÖ±Eò ºÉä xªÉÚÊE±ÉªÉ®ú EòÉ, Eò¨ÉÉ±É ½þè ¦ÉÉ<Ç* He could have written to Mr. Clinton - if he had to write at all - saying that just as France and China exploded nuclear bombs to keep their nuclear technology uptodate as sovereign independent countries, it is India's sovereign right to keep its nuclear technology uptodate. So, do not invent threats when they do not exist because there is no threat existed and nothing has been proved in these 13 months. Had the Chinese troops moved into Arunachal? Had Pakistanis moved into Amritsar?

This is the ability of Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. I am not here to praise him. He is a good man; that is another matter. We are judging him and his performance as a Prime Minister. The indictment is so severe and it has been made all around in clearest terms. What more does he do?

The Finance Minister was waxing eloquent that he will present three more Budgets. My friend Shri Yashwant Sinha is a sensible man and he shoulld know letter that ti make such outrageous statements? How does he know what is going to happen tomorrow? When the Prime Minister of India, in a letter to the President of the United States, says that India is facing a nuclear threat from China and Pakistan, who, in the name of heaven, will bring any money into this country? Please answer me, Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi, you are sitting here on behalf of Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. +MÉ®ú +É{É JÉÖnù Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ nùÖEòÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +ÉMÉ ±ÉMÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè iÉÉä +É{ÉEòä ªÉ½þÉÆ JÉ®úÒnùxÉä EòÉèxÉ +ÉªÉäMÉÉ, +É{ÉEòä ªÉ½þÉÆ {ÉèºÉÉ EòÉèxÉ ±ÉMÉÉBMÉÉ* ªÉ½þ iÉÉä ¤Éc÷Ò ¨ÉÉä]õÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè* Every day he goes on saying that Congress has lust for power. We do not. You have lust for power. We have ruled for 42 years and to say that nothing happened here flies in the face of facts because they knew what was there in 1947 and what was there in the 42 years' rule of Congress. Shri Yashwant Sinha is taking credits for the reforms started in 1991.

So, please let us see what this able Government has done in foreign affairs because all other matters have been dealt with and dealt with brilliantly by Shri Indrajit Gupta.

Their Agenda for Governance says:

"We will, therefore, strive to develop national consensus on all major issues confronting the nation by involving the Opposition Parties and all sections of society in dialogue; will also try for a consensus mode of governance."

Shri Jaswant Singh, a great diplomat of this Government, has been talking to one whom he calls as `my friend Strobe Talbott, Talbott has not called him as `my friend Jaswant'. I have read his article in the last issue of Foreign Affairs. He does not concede one inch to INdia. There have been eight rounds of talks but we have not been told what transpired. The Government says that there is consensus but it broke consensus within six weeks of coming to power. A consensus on Foreign Policy, which existed for 50 years, was destroyed by this Prime Minister and his Government on the 11th and 13th of May. Instead of calling the Leaders of Opposition or a special Session of the House, he writes to the President of the United States ºÉ¡òÉ<Ç nùäxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ÊEò ºÉÉ½þ¤É ½þ¨ÉxÉä <ºÉÊ±ÉB Eò®ú ÊnùªÉÉ, ½þ¨É EªÉÉ Eò®úäÆ* And Clinton leaks the letter to the Press. The Chinese next day says, for the last 10 years after Shri Rajiv Gandhi's visit, relations with China have been improving. There has been no tension on the border. Trade has increased. Exchanges have increased. I asked the Prime Minister very respectfully last time, first of all who has drafted that letter and why has he signed it. If he is so able, he should have read it. If he had read it, he would not have signed it. He signed it bacause he had not read it. He had no answer. ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ EòÉä<Ç VÉ´ÉÉ¤É ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* So much for his ability. ¤Éc÷ä Ê¨ÉªÉÉÆ iÉÉä ¤Éc÷ä Ê¨ÉªÉÉÆ, UôÉä]õä Ê¨ÉªÉÉÆ ºÉÖ¦ÉÉxÉ +±±ÉÉ½þ* =xÉEòä ¨ÉÆÊjÉªÉÉäÆ EòÉ iÉÉä Eò½þxÉÉ ½þÒ EªÉÉ, Eò±É ½þÉä¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ¨Éä®úÉ xÉÉ¨É Ê±ÉªÉÉ, =xÉEòÉä vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù nùäiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, ÊEò xÉ]õ´É®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ xÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä ±ÉÉº]õ <ÇªÉ®ú +{ÉxÉÒ º{ÉÒSÉ ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ <ºÉ Eò®úiÉÚiÉ ºÉä EªÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ* Kashmir will become the central issue. From September, 1965, when Sardar Swaran Singh walked out of the Security Council, Kashmir was not discussed in Security Council till the 5th June, 1998, after the formation of this Government. For the first time we were condemned in the Security Council. There was not one single Member who spoke for us. This is the achievement of this Government. G-8 condemned us. Mr. Clinton in his speech to the National Geographic Society Centenary said, when India and Pakistan discuss Jammu and Kashmir, China should sit on the table. This is a great achievement. Now, we are sitting with Mr. Strobe Telbott, the Minister of State who parleys with a Cabinet Minister of India. I have spent 31-1/2 years in the Foreign Service. Protocal matters. Mr. Telbott goes to Pakistan, he talks to the Foreign Secretary, who is a Civil Servant but in India he talks to Shri Jaswant Singh, who had a Cabinet rank even as Deputy Chairman, Planning Commission and now he is a fulfledged Cabinet Minister. Why cannot Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee ask Shri Brijesh Mishra to do the talking? He can do a better job than Shri Jaswant Singh. We would like to know why this has been allowed go on. In foreign affairs protocol matters. When we get into Office, if Mr. Talbott comes next time he might have to meet the Foreign Secretary. These things are important. They will not try these things with China.

2.00 hrs. They tried this with this weak Government. They would not have tried this with us.

Now, last year I had asked Shri Advani, do you know what hot pursuit means and what pro-active means? Why have you not practised this in 13 months? Because the consequences would have been very serious. The Members of the BJP say that he is Sardar Patel number two. We are very delighted that you want to be like a Congressman. Sardar Patel was not a member of the RSS. He was never a member of the Jan Sangh. The Jan Sangh was not even born at that time because Sardar Patel died on 15th December, 1950 and Jan Sangh was born in 1951. Sardar Patel would not have gone to Mumbai to parley with the head of the Shiv Sena. He would have sent for him here and the head would have come here. Advaniji as Sardar Patel number two! Please have a heart.

Then we have another Chhotey Mian, Shri George Fernandes who is rather good at crossing over from here to there. He says: "Threat number one from China". Wonderful! In one minute, the man has destroyed ten years of hard work on Sino-India relations. I had just been to China. I went there with the Congress delegation and I spoke there with our Chinese friends. I spoke as an Indianabout your Government, you know because the Ambassador had reported it. They said: "We want to know where have we pased a threat". No proof is coming. He has repeated this and the Prime Minister has not hauled him up. The Prime Minister has not said that no, you do not talk out of turn. Why? It is because the Defence Minister said that he would bring their Government down. And this is a Government of principles; the Government of ethics; and the Government of morality. You do not even know what these words mean.

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) BEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ : <xÉEòÉä Êb÷E¶ÉxÉ®úÒ ÊnùJÉÉ nùÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ Eòä.xÉ]õ´É®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ : Êb÷E¶ÉxÉ®úÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB {É½þ±Éä {Égø iÉÉä ±ÉäÆ* Êb÷E¶ÉxÉ®úÒ {ÉgøxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB ¦ÉÒ EòÖUô Eò±ÉÉ¨É +Éè®ú <Ç±¨É SÉÉÊ½þB* Sanctions have been imposed on India for the first time. Then the World Bank gives you 150 million dollars and you are dancing with joy. +®úä SÉÖ±±ÉÚ ¦É®ú {ÉÉxÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ b÷Ú¤É Eò®ú ¨É®ú VÉÉ+Éä* Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ 150 Ê¨ÉÊ±ÉªÉxÉ b÷É±É®ú EòÉ ½þè, EªÉÉ Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ EòÉä<Ç EòÒ¨ÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* =ºÉEòÉä EòÉä<Ç xÉ½þÒÆ JÉ®úÒnù ºÉEòiÉÉ* =xÉºÉä EòÊ½þB +{ÉxÉä +É{É b÷É±É®úÉäÆ EòÉä ®úJÉ ±ÉÒÊVÉB* +É{É ºÉÒ]õÒ¤ÉÒ]õÒ {É®ú ºÉÉ<xÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þÉä MÉB, +É{É ¤ÉMÉè®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ EòÆºÉäÆºÉºÉ Eòä EòÊ®úB iÉÉä ºÉ½þÒ* +É{É ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉiÉÉBÆ ÊEò EªÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* Eò±É |ÉvÉÉxÉ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É nùäÆ ÊEò +É{ÉxÉä ºÉÒ]õÒ¤ÉÒ]õÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB EòèºÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨É ÊºÉiÉ¨¤É®ú iÉEò ºÉÉ<xÉ Eò®ú ±ÉäÆMÉä* ªÉ½þÉÆ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä lÉä ÊEò ¨É<Ç, VÉÚxÉ iÉEò ºÉÉ<xÉ ½þÉä VÉÉBÆMÉä, <ºÉ ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÒ ºÉ½þ¨ÉÊiÉ Eòä ¤ÉMÉè®ú ºÉÉ<xÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þÉäÆMÉä* ½þ¨É ¦ÉÒ SÉÉ½þäÆMÉä ÊEò ºÉÒ]õÒ¤ÉÒ]õÒ {É®ú ºÉÉ<xÉ Eò®ú nùäÆ, ½þ¨É SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þè EòÉä<Ç B]õ¨É ¤É¨É xÉ ½þÉä* ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä Eò½þ ®úJÉÉ ½þè-

The CTBT is about non-proliferation and it is not about nuclear disarmament. If you do not know the difference, then you know nothing about foreign affairs. Our policy has been and will be non-proliferation to be directly linked with time bound nuclear disarmament as mentioned by Janiv Gandhi in his action plan. That is the bottom line. Tack it with Mr. Talbott. I have read his articles in the Foreign Affairs magazine very carefully. Not an inch has he given to this Government and they do not intend to. Mr. Inderfurth says one thing and Ms. Medliene Albright says another thing and the Minister of External Affairs has to come here and say that no, he stand by what he said earlier. Let us see if you do. You may not be there tomorrow or the day after.

Now let us deal with some other areas. The most important is Pokharan. I had made my views know last year and I will do so again. For so again. For 50 years, we were ahead of Pakistan in every respect. On 28th of May, 1998, for all time, Pakistan got parity with us in the nuclear field. The Prime Minister has offered Pakistan a No-First-Strrike proposal. They will not accept it, because if they did, then disparity in conventional weapons will again reappear and this they no longer will accept after Pokharan. Our superiority in conventional weapons is now not relevantas it has been for 50 years.

So if the Government had acted with greater wisdom, skill and foresight, the results would have been different.

Now the bus ride. His visit to the Minar-e-Pakistan was bandied about as sp,ething extraordinaty. Actually I read in the papers that some fanatial Pakistan had washed the area with water because he said that the Indian Prime Minister had walked around it.

Now that we both, Pakistan and India, are nuclear powers, let us talk with one coive to these p-5 nuclear powers, who want to maintain their nuclear monopoly.

They have broken all the rules. We have not broken any of the rules and yet, we are being pilloried. Why should we talk with them on CTBT? Why should this country talk to anybody on CTBT? I cannot understand this point. We are an independent sovereign country. We can make our views known at the Conference on Disarmament. You may make them known at the United Nations. Why this parley? Eighth round of talks, and no result. If you had foresight and imagination, then you should have said to Pakistan `Let us sit down together and we will have a common nuclear policy." No, it has not been done because you lack experience and you are not willing to learn. You talk of consensus. You could have consulted us. We are as patriotic as any of you. But no attempt was made to take Parliament into confidence.

The Prime Minister went to New York. I would like to ask the Foreign Minister as to whom did he meet when he stayed for ten days in New York. Mr. Clinton left the day when Mr. Vajpayee arrived there. Ms. Madeline Albright was there for ten days when Mr. Vajpayee was there but she did not meet him. Even Mr. Chandan Mitra who is not exactly critical of the BJP wrote that the Prime Minister of India was on a holiday there because nobody had met him except some leaders of small countries. I do not want to name those countries. We have good relations with them.

Now, the Americans are asking us, "Please tell us about your minimum deterrents." Who are they to ask us? Do we owe them an explanation? So, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee may take this House into confidence tomorrow and tell us as to what precisely had been discussed between the Foreign Minister and the Minister of States of the United States in the Eighth Round of talks and on what terms have they agreed, if they have agreed to sign the CTBT. Let us know about it. If you have not agreed, then say so. We would like to know about it because China has not ratified CTBT. Russia has not ratified and US has not ratified it. The White House has made six reservations and unless these are fulfilled, they will not ratify the CTBT. But we are being pressurised, arm-twisted, sanctions imposed, condemned in the Security Council and Kashmir is made a central issue and after 33 years, we are asked to sign the CTBT unconditionally because CTBT cannot be amended.

We also want non-proliferation. We also want nuclear disarmament but we are not going to be pushed around to sign CTBT unless we know precisely I was Ambassador of India to Pakistan nearly 20 years ago. Thus, I have a vested interest in having good neighbourly and friendly relations with Pakistan. I want to ask: What precidelly has been the concrete achievement of the bus ride? We have read the speeches of Mr. Nawaz Sharied made by him after Shri Vajpayee's return from Parkistan and it is clear that euphoria is totally one sided. This Government is calling the bus ride as a great achievement. What did he achieve? He is a master of language. He is very eloquent. He made a beautiful speech in Lahore. ¸ÉÒ nùä´ÉVÉÒ ¦ÉÉ<Ç VÉä. ]õÆb÷ä±É (nù¨ÉxÉ +Éè®ú nùÒ´É): +É{É EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ?

SHRI K. NATWAR SINGH : I did not interrupt anybody. In Lahore, all those wonderful words and phrases went into the sky like fireworks and they came down to earth in two seconds as ash and dust because nothing concrete or substantial was achieved. We want to know the concrete results. We also want to have good relations with Pakistan. The late Shri Rajiv Gandhi went to Pakistan not once but twice. ¸ÉÒ nùä´ÉVÉÒ ¦ÉÉ<Ç VÉä. ]õÆb÷ä±É: +É{É ºÉÉä ®ú½þä lÉä* ¸ÉÒ Eòä.xÉ]õ´É®ú ÊºÉÆ½þ :½þ¨É ºÉÉä xÉ½þÒÆ ®ú½þä lÉä* BäºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨ÉxÉä <ºÉ IÉäjÉ ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô xÉ½þÒ ÊEòªÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉxÉä +SUôÒ Ê´Énùä¶É xÉÒÊiÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ<Ç +Éè®ú <ºÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉMÉä* {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ÊEòiÉxÉÉ +xÉÖ¦É´É ½þè? +MÉ®ú VªÉÉnùÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB* ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò VÉ¶xÉ ÊEòºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ {É®ú ½þÖ+É? +]õ±É Ê¤É½þÉ®úÒ ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ½þÉèVÉJÉÉºÉ ¨ÉäÆ +Éè®ú +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ¤ÉÆMÉ±ÉÉè®ú ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ VÉ¶xÉ ¨ÉxÉÉªÉÉ ÊEò 13 ¨É½þÒxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éc÷Ò-¤Éc÷Ò SÉÒVÉäÆ ½þÖ<ÇÆ* +É{ÉxÉä EªÉÉ SÉÒVÉäÆ EòÒ ½þèÆ? VÉÉä ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ½þ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉiÉÉ nùÒÊVÉB* What are the concrete results that you have achieved? All that you have done is that you destroyed the national consensus, ruined our relations with China, Pakistan, the United States and Europe. You go to South Africa and take on cudgels with Dr. Nelson Mandela. Why? Mr. Mandela listed eight areas in the world. He need not have done it. If you had any experience in diplomacy, all that the Government had to do was to send the Vice-President of India to South Africa before the Summit and brief Mr.Mandela. We had been the Chairman of the Non-Aligned Summit. I have myself been the Secretary-General of the 7th Summit. We could have said that these things are not mentioned. But this was not done. There was no cooperation with South Africa.

Then, what happened? The Principal Secretary of the P.M. at a Press Conference says that Dr. Mandela has apologised. Suppose Dr. Mandela had done so, should we have pulicly gloated ove it. The South African High Commissioner made a statement saying that they did not apologisc. Even if Dr. Mandela had done so, we should have shown restraint? He is a great man. Was it necessary to shout about it? Is it diplomacy? Is it a courtesy extended to a great man ? All that you have achieved is that you have antagonised South Africa. When the discussion took place at the United Nations, the South African delegate looked at India and said that we are not speaking as the Chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement but we are speaking here as the South African delegate. They were critical of us. Is this good diplomacy? We would like to have some answers to these questions. We want to restore national consensus on foreign policy. We want to restore national consensus on CTBT. We want to restore national consensus on disarmament. Have you made any effort? You have not made any effort. That is why, we oppose this Motion. We hold you responsible for the damage that you have done in 13 months to India's foreign policy.

With these words, I conclude. Thank you.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Dr. Subramanian Swamy.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN (COOCHBEHAR): What about us?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You will get your turn. How can I allow both of you together? I called Dr. Subramanian Swamy.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, whom you allow or not is your decision? My only appeal is, earlier everything was done according to the strength. But now it is according to the strength.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): I was called on the basis of 19 members. In that case, I should have been called earlier.

SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN : I do not know.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Pradhan, it is not like that. I am only going according to the list I have drawn here. Please bear with me. ... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the countdown to the demise of this Government has begun with less than ten hours to go. This Motion, which the Prime Minister has brought, which the majority of the House will reject in a few hours today from now, was necessitated because following the withdrawal of support by the AIADMK, the President directed the Prime Minister to bring this Motion. If they had practised what they had preached earlier, following the withdrawal, they would have resigned. This House has witnessed that when Kumari Mayawati's party withdrew support to Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav's Government in U.P., Shri Advani is on record in this House of having described the refusal of Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav to resign and to seek a Vote of Confidence as a political crime. The statements made by various BJP leaders at that time are documented in a book written by the then Governor of Uttar Pradesh and today they are insisting on seeking a Vote of Confidence. The withdrawal of support by the AIADMK's leader was necessitated because the leader, Kumari Jayalalita found that this Government gravely jeopardized our national security and demoralized our Armed Forces by the reckless dismissal of Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat. The Admiral was dismissed on 30th of December and as early as the 2nd of January, the leader of the AIADMK issued a public statement on this issue. The dismissal of the Admiral and the statements and counter-statements that followed has unraveled and uncovered a sordid saga of the Defence Minister's active abetment of terrorism and foreign insurgency and the Prime Minister's capitulation to a corrupt arms lobby. In other words, the core issue today is that this Government cannot be trusted to safeguard our national integrity, our national security and our national interest and therefore, it must go. It is not as it has been made out by the leaders of the BJP who spoke in the debate that because the BJP leadership did not dismiss the DMK Government that the support was withdrawn. That they did not dismiss the DMK Government was a betrayal of the promise they made to the electorate, but the issue here today is the betrayal of the nation itself by undermining the morale of the Armed Forces. What we want, therefore, today is the Government should go to save the nation from this decline. For us today, therefore, the dismissal of the DMK Government is not a priority issue. What is priority is to save the country.

They could have agreed to the formation of a Joint Parliamentary Committee. But what was their response? They said: "Have a discussion, bring out the materials and if we are convinced, we will agree to the formation of a JPC." Even in jurisprudence, the accused has a right to select his court. Here, the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister were under a cloud on the accusations made by the dismissed Admiral. The Prime Minister cannot say that he would assess whether the material against him is adequate to have a JPC or not. The Parliament wants a JPC. A large number of Members of Parliament want a JPC. The Prime Minister is under a cloud. So, it would be in the fitness of things that he should have immediately agreed to the formation of a JPC, rather than say that he would sit in judgment on the evidence presented. How can the accused be the judge? The mere fact that they stoutly refused to agree to the formation of a JPC proves that there is something which they wanted to hide.

Now, let us look at the main point of Admiral Bhagwat's dismissal, because that point has not been brought out here. A lot of disinformation has taken place. So, I would like to place this in sharp focus. Vice-Admiral Harinder Singh in Andamans had put in a request to be posted in the Naval Headquarters at Delhi after the present Government took over. Admiral Bhagwat, as the Naval Chief, instead recommended Vice-Admiral Madanjit Singh for the post of Deputy Chief of the Navy. Both were Sikhs. Yet a canard was spread that Admiral Bhagwat was anti-Sikh. He recommended another Sikh, not the Sikh that they wanted, but someone else who, he thought, was a better officer. The Minister did not agree and he asked the Admiral to reconsider. But the Admiral stuck to his decision and recommendation. The Government then overruled that decision and the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet approved Vice-Admiral Harinder Singh, sent that approval and the draft appointment letter to the Chief of Naval Staff, namely Admiral Bhagwat. But the Admiral did not implement it saying that it is unimplementable. This led to his sacking under Section 15 of the Navy Act.

Now, what is the legal position? The Navy Act, under which he was sacked, has, under Section 184, a subordinate legislation called Rule 134. This Rule was drafted in 1965 and I read Rule 134.

"Appointments of officers of all branches of the rank of Captain and above shall be made by the Government on the recommendation of the Chief of Naval Staff."

The words are, "shall be made by the Government". Anyone with a minimum knowledge of law knows that when the word "shall" is there, it means it is mandatory for the Government to implement, to act on the recommendation of the Chief of Naval Staff. So, indeed, the Admiral was right as per law. He has been recommending and all through our history, whenever a recommendation has been made by the Chief of Naval Staff for appointments of Captain and above, without exception the Government has accepted it, except this one particular case.

Now, the reactions to the dismissal have been widespread amongst the Armed Forces. Of course, those who are serving cannot express their opinion, but those who have held high positions and retired said as follows. The former Chief of Naval Staff R.S. Tahliani said:

"It is terrible and totally unwarranted. The decision reflected a total lack of sensitivity on the part of the Government. Today's events have hurt the morale of the Forces irreparably."

Lt-Gen. V.K. Madhok (retired) said:

"Just because a Chief holds a certain view regarding promotion and transfer, it is absolutely unjustified to sack him."

Gen. V.N. Sharma, former Chief of Army Staff said:

"This kneejerk decision is not the right way to handle such high-level appointments"

Lt-Gen. Kalkat, former Army Commander, said:

"It is a sad development for the Armed Services and the nation as a whole."

0226 hrs (Shri P.C. Chacko in the Chair) There is a widespread condemnation in the Armed Forces and a total demoralisation that took place after that.

Now, the question is: "Why was it then necessary to defame this Admiral?" The question also is, "Why was the Defence Minister so keen to publicly humiliate a Chief of Naval Staff?" If you have differences with him, you could have called him and asked him quietly to put in his resignation. If he had refused, there could have been something else. You could have taken some other step. But why did you publicly do this? There, I can say, hangs the most sordid tale of national betrayal.

According to my perusal of the materials that have become available, there appears to be two reasons why the Defence Minister, Shri George Fernandes, was particularly keen to humiliate Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat. First is Mr. Fernandes' links with the LTTE and the LTTE's hatred of Admiral Bhagwat because Admiral Bhagwat was the person who intercepted the number two man in LTTE on the high seas, popularly known in the LTTE as `Kittu' in 1995. And he had to swallow cyanide and kill himself. Since then, all LTTE publications have been carrying on singularly a campaign against Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat.

The second reason for Admiral Bhagwat's conviction was that Mr. Fernandes was a national security risk of which he had given many documentation.

I had given all the materials and documentation to the Speaker before this debate started saying that I will be referring to it. Let me read out some of it from The Hindustan Times of 14th April this year. There is a newsitem filed by Shri P.K. Balachandran which says:

"In a laudatory box item in its latest issue, the pro-LTTE Tamil magazine `Thinamurasu' recalled that ... (Expunged as ordered by the Chair) Mr. Fernandes had not backed out of his commitment to the LTTE cause.

The paper, which is the most popular weekly among Lankan Tamils across the globe, said that among the reasons given for the sacking of Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat was that he had passed on information about the LTTE's arms ship movements to the Sri Lankan Government. It was on the orders of Admiral Bhagwat that the ship with LTTE leader Kittu on board was intercepted. Approving of the change of guard at the Indian Naval headquarters, the paper said: "The present Chief would not pass on any such information to the Sri Lankan Government."

In his edit page piece in `The Island' on Monday, former Sri Lankan Ambassador Kalyananda Godage pointed out that as per Article 2(16) of the letters exchanged between Mr. Rajiv Gandhi and Mr. J.R. Jayawardene, India was obliged to intercept LTTE arms vessels and passed information to Sri Lankan Government."

What the Admiral was doing was performing his duty as per an agreement that we have with the Sri Lankan Government. So, here is a case where Shri Fernandes is being lauded by the LTTE magazine because... (Expunged as ordered by the Chair) Even as Defence Minister, he is supporting the LTTE cause - a certificate from the LTTE itself.

Shri Fernandes' involvement with the LTTE is something which this Parliament needs to take a very serious note of and maybe a future Government to prosecute him for it.

Here is a document or a newspaper cutting of The Telegraph of 16-3-1999. The heading is `Fernandes plays Saviour'. The Defence Minister, Shri George Fernandes was the Chief Patron of the LTTE backed Fund Raising Committee for 26 convicts in the Rajiv Gandhi Assassination Case. The Body called `Fund Raising Committee for protection of Tamils' has been seeking donations to save 26 persons sentenced to death through advertisement in Tamil publications for funds. A document in possession of The Telegraph names Fernandes as the Patron of the Committee. Fernandes confirmed to this paper that he was Patron of the Committee but added, `I ceased to be associated with them once I became a Union Minister.' According to Nedumaran, who is the LTTE Commissar in India and who lives with Shri Fernandes when he comes to Delhi, though Fernandes continues to be associated with us in this cause, the Defence Minister is convener of another outfit formed to express solidarity with the Tamil Eelam. Appeals for funds have been periodically circulated since the 26 convicts moved the Supreme Court after being sentenced to the death row by the Special TADA Court in Tamil Nadu.

Now, the pamphlet which is circulated in Tamil Nadu, I have a copy of that and I have given a copy to the hon. Speaker. Shri Fernandes has been campaigning around the country for a long time now for the LTTE. According to The Times of India of 6-1-1997:

"It is Pirbhakaran all the way. Pirbhakaran is self-confessed facilitator of the murder of Rajiv Gandhi. He has proudly claimed that it was he who ordered the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi to teach him a lesson. He is accused No.1 in the Rajiv Gandhi Assassination Trial."

This is what The Times of India says.

Shri George Fernandes declared that `there was no doubt that Pirbhakaran and the LTTE were the only representatives of the Tamils in Sri Lanka fighting for the cause of an independent nation. India's record is nothing to write home about, it does not inspire confidence. Rajiv Gandhi's understanding with Sri Lankan Government to send the so-called IPKF is a shameful chapter in India's history.' This is what he said on the 5th of January 1997 in Bangalore.

He wanted to hold a meeting in Delhi for the LTTE in November of 1997. SHRI BRAJA KISHORE TRIPATHY (PURI): It was reported in the Jain Commission's Report.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : The Jain Commission was over by then. These are all post-Jain Commission matters. There should be, of course, a fresh commission, in my opinion because the Jain Commission has left much to be desired and I think, maybe the next Government should appoint a sitting Judge of the Supreme Court to enquire into it.

In November 1997, when the United Front Government was in power and Shri Indrajit Gupta was the Home Minister, Shri Fernandes wanted to hold a meeting here in defence of the LTTE. The United Front Government banned it and Shri Indrajit Gupta wrote a letter saying, `please do not hold this meeting'. He wrote to Shri Fernandes that that meeting was not desirable in the India's national interest. Shri Fernandes defied that ban and held the meeting in his Government given accommodation, in the lawns of his house.

According to the Jain Commission Report, Vol. 5, page 232, there is an account given by one of the accused in the Rajiv Gandhi Assassination. A Printer says, "I printed books in the midst of this work on the request of Baby Subramaniam who is the Propaganda Chief of the LTTE.

I printed another book with matters given by him. George Fernandes wrote the preface to this book. This book is full of abuse of Rajiv Gandhi and why Mr. Rajiv Gandhi is a threat and should be put away with."

Shri George Fernandes writes the preface to that.

We know who Mr. Veeramani is. Mr. Veeramani is the General Secretary of an organisation called, `Dravida Kazhagam', which has been traditionally asking for an independent Tamil Nadu. Public meetings after public meetings he has been praising Mr. Pirabhakaran. Here is a newspaper cutting dt. 24th January, 1999, which says:

"For Veeramani, Pirabhakaran is not only the leader of the Tamil community but he is the younger brother. When the Government claims that there is no movement of LTTE in the country, where is the need to ban it? He opposes the ban."

That is what it says with this photograph.

Now, why do I mention this is that I was surprised to learn, as a Member of the Standing Committee on Defence, that a Memorandum of Understanding was signed between the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Periyar Maniammai College of Technology for Women of which Mr. Veeramani is the Chairman.

What does this MoU say? It says that this remote Women College in Thanjavur will do research on frost bites suffered by Indian soldiers in Siachen Glacier. It is signed surprisingly by Mr. Abdul Kalam on behalf of the Ministry and Mr. Veeramani on behalf of the College. But the last line says, "This MoU is made in duplicate and signed on the 5th November, 1998 in Delhi in the presence of the hon. Defence Minister"; that is on the direction of the Defence Minister.

These are not suddenly I brought out. I wrote to the Prime Minister several letters. I have got acknowledgments from the Prime Minister. Here is an acknowledgment of November 3, 1998 written by Mr. Vajpayee. It says:

"Dear Dr. Swamy, I have received your letter of October, 29, 1998 alleging that some of the Union Ministers are helping the LTTE."

After that, I heard nothing.

Now, let us look at the issue dealing with the national security angle. I would not take much time now; I know it is getting on time.

The Hindustan Times of the 16th March, 1999 says:

"Gun runners hoodwink Navy in Andaman. An Indian Navy operation launched on the Sri Lankan Government request to nab the gun runners near Andaman Islands ended in a fiasco. The operators who were said to have close links with the LTTE escaped after sinking their trawler. The failure of the operation has been detailed in a report to the Defence Minister raises serious questions about the manner in which it is being handled by the Naval brass of Andaman. The Command at that time was headed by Vice Admiral Harinder Singh who took over as the Deputy Chief of Naval Staff today.

Highly placed sources in the External Affairs Ministry said that the Sri Lankan Government had on March 6, requested the Indian Government to help intercept a 500 tonne trawler, M.V. Maniamma, which was believed to have supplied arms and ammunition to the LTTE of the northern part of the Island Republic.

Last Thursday afternoon, the Indian Navy ships closed on the trawler. However, inexplicably it was decided that M.V. Maniamma would be intercepted in the night instead of the day. But at that night, the Indian ship found that the trawler was sinking 200 kilometres off the Andaman coast. Search operations reveal that there was no person or weapons on board. It is understood that the operators on board and trawler escaped on a Gemini boat after dumping the arms over board."

Now what all this boils down to is that there is impeccable, incontrovertible evidence that the Defence Minister is actively abetting LTTE. When Shri Vishnu Bhagwat was Vice-Admiral, he was responsible for intercepting the LTTE, particularly, the second senior-most leader, and having intercepted him, he had to take cyanide. There is today, no doubt, that the LTTE regards this Government as theirs. They think this is a friendly Government. I have read it out.

Shri Sirpotdar is here. His leader, Balasaheb Thackeray says, "I am proud of the LTTE; I am for the LTTE and I am proud of these tigers." This is what he said in a public meeting.

There are other Ministers in the Government who are also pro-LTTE and I have documents. I have written to the Prime Minister about it. There is one more document. Before I conclude, what I have to say is this. The Times of India, dated 17-3-199 says:

"The senior naval personnel say that the failed attempt to board an LTTE supply vessel on March, 11 was deliberate. `The orders were delayed on boarding the vessel till nightfall ensured that these LTTE personal could live to fight another day', a Naval officer, formerly in operation, said. He added that modern equipment have made it easy to locate and intercept boats which made their escape. Thus, there were obviously orders to avoid pursuit."

This is a very, very serious matter. It jeopardizes. This is what is the core on which the leader of the ADMK withdrew the support, not because they did not dismiss the DMK Government. In any case, the DMK Government is on its way out. Even by normal terms, they got only two years more. If there is a new Government and they find out about their foreign exchange violations and all, they will anyway go in the normal course. We are not worried about their dismissal. The issue is that the Armed Forces are being demoralized. The issue is that the foreign terrorist organizations are getting a foothold in this country. This is essentially the fundamental reason.

Now, how intimate LTTE is getting to this Government is described in another newspaper cutting. "Special guests at Vaiko's son wedding". Is Shri Vaiko here?

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Yes, I am here.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : "It was a VVIP wedding in which leaders of major political parties in the country registered their presence. Apart from Union Minister, Shri L.K. Advani and the Defence Minister, Shri George Fernandes, Vaiko had some special guests at his son's wedding in Chennai on Sunday. Outlawed LTTE Chief, V. Prabakharan's parents and several hard-core Eelam supporters were there in full strength at the wedding."

Then, it goes on to describe how LTTE people praise this Government as a sympathetic Government.... (Interruptions) You will get the chance.

SHRI MOHAN RAWALE (MUMBAI SOUTH-CENTRAL): You have taken his name.

SHRI VAIKO : You have referred my name. I have to explain.

MR. CHAIRMAN : If you agree, he can speak.

AN HON. MEMBER: He has made wild allegations.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : It is not wild allegation. I was reading what is written here.

SHRI VAIKO : Mr. Chairman, Sir, as usual all malicious, vicious and fraudulent allegations have been made...(Not recorded) AN HON. MEMBER: It is vulgar.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, Shri Vaiko, you are given time. Please understand that we have 10 more speakers and we have to wind up our discussion.

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, allegations are malicious, vicious and false.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That you can say but the second part of what you have said should not be there. That will not form part of the record. SHRI VAIKO: Sir, they are allegations of malicious, vicious and utter falsehood. They are nothing but falsehood. Regarding the wedding of my sone, he made a reference.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, he has only read the newspaper item. If you have anything to say on that, please state.

SHRI VAIKO : Mr. Chairman, you have to permit me.

SHRI C.P. RADHAKRISHNAN (COIMBATORE): Sir, allegation has been made. You have to expunge it... (Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM (GARHWAL): Does he authenticate the document?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If anybody wants, he will authenticate. That is all.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : They never authenticate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You can ask for that.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : He has not authenticated it.

SHRI VAIKO : Mr. Chairman, Sir, the parents of Shri Perbhakaran have been living there in Trichy peacefully for many years. They have nothing to do with the organisation. Therefore, on my invitation, they came to attend the wedding. They were very much there but it cannot be alleged as if hard core LTTE people can come. Therefore, it is an insinuation and they are living there for many years. The previous Government was there. So, all these years they have nothing to do with the organisation. So, what is the point he is making? (Interruptions)

me.

MR. CHAIRMAN : No, no. No allegation was made against you.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Not allowed. Nobody is allowed except Dr. Swamy.

party.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You are not allowed, Shri Baalu. Please take your seat. I request you to take your seat.

(Interruptions)* MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Baalu, take your seat.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, please take your seat. Will you please take your seat? I am requesting you to take your seat.

There were no derogatory remarks by Dr. Swamy. In spite of that I have allowed Shri Vaiko because it is a sensitive matter about his family. Please do not insist on talking. It is not necessary.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is not necessary. I am not allowing anybody.

wild allegations.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Swamy, have you yielded for him?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I have not yielded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Baalu, you take your seat. You are not allowed. Whatever you are saying will not go on record.

(Interruptions)* MR. CHAIRMAN: You cannot command the Chair like this.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. I am requesting you to take your seat. Nothing of what you say is going on the record.

(Interruptions) * MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no. This is not allowed. Do not dictate like this.

... (Interruptions)

______________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded MR. CHAIRMAN: Once again I am requesting you. Please do not dictate to the Chair like this. I am not allowing you. Dr. Subramanian Swamy, you please complete your speech. Shri Baalu, you take your seat. There was no reference at all to you or to the DMK party.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is not allowed. Nothing except what Dr. Swamy is saying will go on record.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. Only Dr. Swamy's speech will on record. Nothing else, except Dr. Swamy's speech will go on record.

I request Dr. Swamy to complete his speech. I am not allowing anybody else.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no. I am requesting you once again to sit down.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : You can speak when your turn comes.

(Interruptions)

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Shri Baalu, please hear me. In Dr. Swamy's speech, there was no reference about your name. This is not the way. There are some parties which did not get an opportunity to speak in the House. They are all waiting patiently. We have to at least complete the discussion.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Baalu, I am not allowing you. You have to take the seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: This is the direction of the Chair. You cannot do that.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not allowing you. There is no question. I have called Dr. Swamy to complete his speech. Please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do not waste the time of the House. Not a word of what you are saying is going on the record. Why are you wasting the time of the House?

(Interruptions)* MR. CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. Dr. Swamy, please complete your speech.

... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have given the ruling, please.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I am not yielding. ...(Interruptions).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record other than Dr. Swamy's speech. Please take your seat. How can we go on like this?

(Interruptions)* DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I am not yielding. (Interruptions).

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Dr. Swamy has yielded at one place. Please give him one minute. ...(Interruptions).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Baalu, if you are not obeying the orders of the Chair, then I have nothing to say. But I am giving you the warning. I have given the ruling. I am not allowing you. Whatever is your opinion, whatever you may shout, nothing will be there on record. I am not allowing anybody else. Wherever there was a derogatory remark or wherever it was necessary, I have given the time. I am explaining the position of the parties. They are not allowing the time to them. I cannot do injustice to other Members who are waiting to speak.

(Interruptions) * MR. CHAIRMAN: I am disallowing your submission. I am not allowing you to speak. Please take your seat.

... (Interruptions)

...(Interruptions).

MR. CHAIRMAN: What is this? A number of parties are to participate in the debate. What is this?

... (Interruptions)

AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister should not make such a statement. ...(Interruptions).

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: I am not yielding. ...(Interuptions).

THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND FAMILY WELFARE (SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI): Sir, before you allow him to proceed, please ask him to clarify. ...(Interruptions).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, you are not permitted to speak. Then, how can you speak?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, he has made an allegation against Shri George Fernandes. He has to substantiate it...(Interruptions)

14.55 hrs (Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair) THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS, MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PLANNING AND PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTATION (SHRI RAM NAIK): Sir, the hon. Member, Shri Subramanian Swamy made an allegation that a Minister has links with LTTE. Now he must explain to whom he is referring. That is what the Members are asking.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: And also he should tell us what is the basis of that. He has to substantiate that...(Interruptions)

DR. SHAKEEL AHMAD : He was talking about the Defence Minister of the country, Shri George Fernandes...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am asking Shri Swamy...(Interruptions)

party...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No, nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, before you proceed, please ask Shri Swamy to substantiate that. He did say that a Minister has links with LTTE. He further proceeded saying that the Minister is actually abetting the LTTE... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am asking Shri Subramanian Swamy. You do not want even me to speak. Yes, Shri Subramanian Swamy, kindly tell me what you said.

... (Interruptions)

here to protect our party.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am asking him Shri Baalu.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, I read out a letter, which is an acknowledgment of the Prime Minister to me.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, he has said that a Minister is having links with LTTE. He further said that the Minister is actually abetting the LTTE. He must tell who is the Minister...(Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, he must behave like a Minister... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Subramanian Swamy, have you stated that a Minister has some links with LTTE?

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Yes, Sir, he said like that. Further he said that the Minister is actually abetting the LTTE. He has to substantiate that.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, I am asking him. Let me first of all understand what he said.

_____________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Sir, those references should be expunged ...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Vaiko, why do you jump to a conclusion? Let me understand first.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Only on these two references we want a clarification, Sir ...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Sankaran, what is going on here?

... (Interruptions)

3.00 hrs. ....(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: First of all, I should give him the opportunity to speak before you.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): May I make my submission? (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me hear him.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I read out the acknowledgement received from the Prime Minister to a letter that I had written, in which he has said :

"Dr. Swamy, I have received your letter of October 29, 1998 alleging that some of the Union Ministers are helping the LTTE."

Now, he wants to know ...(Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Did it say that a Minister has links with the LTTE? we should go by the record. Did he say that? We should go by the record. If he withdraws that, he should say that he is withdrawing it. If he wants to withdraw, that is very good. Let him withdraw that. What is the record? ....(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me fully hear him.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI MOHAMMAD ALI ASHRAF FATMI (DARBHANGA): That is an acknowledgement. What is the problem in it? He has written the letter to the Prime Minister. That is on record. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: He is saying that a Minister has links with the LTTE. He has to substantiate it. (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: In that letter, I have made an allegation documenting that Shri George Fernandes has links with LTTE and he is abetting the LTTE. I assumed that the Prime Minister would investigate and write to me saying that my allegations are baseless. The Prime Minister has not done so and if they appoint a JPC, it will be very easy to establish what the substance of my allegations is. I have written to the Prime Minister.

Now, as far as my allegations against the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu are concerned, I read out a news item quoting a pro-LTTE magazine. I have given the photocopies of these newspaper cuttings to the hon. Speaker in the morning itself saying that I am going to rely on them, in which that magazine Dina Murasu said that unlike the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu who is a chameleon, George Fernandes is a stout defender of the LTTE. That is all I read. Then I have also said that it is not a priority issue for us to dismiss the DMK Government. A future government can always take care of them under the foreign exchange laws and other laws. We do not need dismissal. That is what I have said. Now, may I continue? ....(Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: He can write any number of letters. In what way is he right? (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He has mentioned the name of the Minister in his letter to the Prime Minister and that letter was acknowledged by the Prime Minister.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Hon. Deputy-Speaker Sir, that is not my question. I want to know ....(Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : There is a procedure for making an allegation against a Minister in this House. He can write to the Prime Minister. We are not concerned about it. But as far as making an allegation against a Minister is concerned, there is a certain procedure. Has he followed that procedure?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I have followed the procedure.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He has written to the Prime Minister. He has read out the acknowledgement of that letter.

... (Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : He is making an allegation against the Minister in the House. There is a certain procedure for it. Has he followed the procedure?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I have followed the procedure.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Has he given notice to the Minister? ....(Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: I am relying on the photocopies given to the hon. Speaker and making the allegations. ....(Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Has he given notice to the Minister? ....(Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: May I continue now? ....(Interruptions)

minute. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR: Has he given the photocopies of the papers to the concerned Minister? ....(Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : This is not a court of law. What are they talking? They do not even know the rules. They should read the rules. ....(Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK: Sir, the matter is simple. If any Member has to make any allegation against a Minister, he has to give notice not only to the Speaker but also to the Minister. The first point is whether he has given notice to the Minister. The second point is whether he is going to support it with evidence here.

In the afternoon, the Chair has given a ruling that allegations cannot be made without substantiating them. He is not substantiating his allegation. He has to give notice to the concerned Minister so that he could be present here to refute the allegations. ...(Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I have only read out from newspaper cuttings which I have given to the hon. Speaker. I have relied on them.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR: That is not sufficient, Sir.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Swamy, it should be authenticated.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :I have authenticated it in my letter to the Speaker and said that I shall rely on this.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me find out from the Secretariat whether notice has been given.

Shri Swamy, I have been informed that no such intimation has been received in the Secretariat.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :I personally delivered it in the Speaker's office. I have got a copy.... * I gave the entire cutting.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It has to be given to the Secretariat in a proper form. If you had given it to the Secretariat, they must be having a copy.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :I have given it in the morning.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR: He is supposed to give it to the Secretary-General.

_____________________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair made serious allegations against my party. I have to safeguard the interests of my party. That is what we are here for.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am not yielding. He can speak in his own time. I am not yielding.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Baalu, the hon. Member is not yielding.

serious allegations against my party. It is a principle of natural justice. I request you to kindly allow me to speak for a minute.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Sir, no notice has been given.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The whole thing will be set right now. The Speaker has not received any paper cutting.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, expunge the whole thing.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY *Sir,...* When I went at 10:30 in the morning, neither the Speaker nor the Secretary-General was there. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : Sir, he has misled the House. He is not supposed to mislead the House.

SHRI RAM NAIK: Sir, I am on a point of order under Rule 353 of Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha. Rule 353 says:

"No allegation of a defamatory or incriminatory nature shall be made by a member against any person unless the member has given adequate advance notice to the Speaker and also to the Minister concerned so that the Minister may be able to make an investigation into the matter for the purpose of a reply."

There are two points in it. One is that any notice to the Speaker has to be given one hour in advance to the beginning of the sitting, that is, 10 o'clock today. The hon. Member says that he went to the Secretary-General's office at 10:30 a.m. That means, he has not given the notice in time.

Point number two is he is also to give the copy of that notice to the Minister. About that he is silent and I think silence is speaking. These are the two points on which I am raising a point of order.

_______________________________________________________________________ * Expunged as ordered by the chair SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR :He has betrayed the House.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :Please find out if the Secretary-General did not receive what I have given. Let there be an inquiry as to whether I gave these papers or not. I gave it to the Secretary-General. Let there be an inquiry...(Interruptions )

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN : Notices are to be given to the Notice Office. Now we demand for another JPC to find out where these notices have gone.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Under Rule 353, it is clear now. It is not only to the Speaker but also to the Minister concerned.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : May I on a point of order explain to you that I have made it clear in this entire speech of mine?

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: The rules are clear.

SHRI MOHAMMAD ALI ASHRAF FATMI (DARBHANGA): It is a general observation. It is not an allegation.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR: He is misguiding the House. How can you allow it? ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þ¨¨Énù +±ÉÒ +¶É®ú¡ò ¡òÉiÉ¨ÉÒ: ½þ®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ nùäxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ? EªÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú Eòä ÊJÉ±ÉÉ¡ò ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ nùäxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I have been making this point all through my speech.

SHRI VAIKO : All the references made against the Minister should be expunged.

SHRI VAIKO : As a custodian of the House, you have to protect the right of the Members.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: In the afternoon, I gave a ruling. It is strictly according to the rules. Now you will have to either substantiate or, according to the rules, you will have to withdraw it. If you are not going to withdraw, I will expunge it.

SHRI VAIKO :You have given the correct ruling when Shri George Fernandes made some allegation against the Congress party.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please don't waste the time of the House.

SHRI VAIKO : He has not given the notice.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already expunged now.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO :Either he should withdraw or the charges should be expunged.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already given a ruling that I have expunged it. What is the point in talking about it?

... (Interruptions)

(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Dr. Swamy, you may kindly proceed.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (: Yes, I am proceeding. I was reading a news item. ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ (Ê¶É´É½þ®ú) : ºÉ®ú, +¤É ¤É½þÖiÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ½þÉä MÉªÉÉ ½þè, ½þÉ=ºÉ ºlÉÊMÉiÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉÖZÉä ¨ÉÉ±ÉÚ¨É ½þè, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +É{É nùäJÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, ªÉä <vÉ®ú ¨Éä®úÒ VÉÉxÉ UôÉäc÷xÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þèÆ* ... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I was reading a news item. `The special guests at Vaiko's son's wedding', it says, ... (Interruptions)

(Interruptions) He is reading the newspaper report again and again; the time of the House is being wasted. ... (Interruptions) He is a political blackmailer. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Dr. Swamy, I have already given my ruling. You may please take up something else.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Are you saying that I cannot read out a news item?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You can quote.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Yes, I am quoting.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: What is the newspaper and what is its date?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I am quoting from The Indian Express dated the 6th December, 1998 and I would like an inquiry into what it says.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: It has already been expunged.

SHRI V. SATHIAMOORTHY (RAMANATHAPURAM): Are you ready to deny the news item?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Baalu, newspaper reports can be quoted.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He is only quoting. I have given him permission to quote.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I do not know why they are afraid. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have expunged whatever was objectionable according to the rules. It is his right to quote. Why are you objecting to it?

... (Interruptions)

more than forty minutes.

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR : I think, his time is over now.

(Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN : You may please allow Shri Baalu to speak for two minutes after Dr. Swamy completes his speech. ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ (Ê¶É´É½þ®ú) : ºÉ®ú, +¤É ½þÉ=ºÉ ºlÉÊMÉiÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB +Éè®ú Eò±É ºÉÖ¤É½þ +É`ö ¤ÉVÉä Ê¡ò®ú ¶ÉÖ°ü ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : EòèºÉä ½þÉäMÉÉ? +¦ÉÒ iÉÊ¨É±ÉxÉÉb÷Ö EòÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ ½þè* PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, already one hour has been wasted on this. My humble suggestion is - it is all because Shri Baalu is insistent - that after Dr. Swamy's speech is over, he may be given two minutes to make his point.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Is the Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs also ... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK: It is a good suggestion. Let him say what he wants to, for two minutes, after his speech. ... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I was reading from The Indian Express, dated 6th December 1998. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: He read out from some newspaper and that was expunged. Again, he is reading it out now. ... (Interruptions)

PROF. P.J. KURIEN: Shri T.R. Baalu will reply. Why are you reacting to it now? ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ (JÉÖVÉÉÇ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, +É{É nùäJÉ ±ÉÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ ºÉÉ®úÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ BäºÉä ½þÒ MÉÉä±É-¨ÉÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ Ê]õEòÉ ½þÖ+É ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Ashok Pradhan, let me conduct the House. He is quoting from the paper. He is entitled to quote. ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þ¨¨Énù +±ÉÒ +¶É®ú¡ò ¡òÉiÉ¨ÉÒ : ªÉ½þ Êb÷E]õä]õ®úÊ¶É{É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, b÷ä¨ÉÉäFòäºÉÒ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉ¤É +É{É ±ÉÉäMÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉ¤É EªÉÉ +É{É EòÉä]õ xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ?

... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ b÷ä¨ÉÉäFòäºÉÒ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM : Sir, he made it already. You were not present here, I was here. Shri Vaiko had made some points. But it is again being repeated. That is the point. ... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I am not repeating. ... (Interruptions) I was interrupted when I was reading it out. What does the news item further say? It was not contradicted by Shri Vaiko. This news item further says:

"Interestingly, the hardcore Eelam campaigners including Kasi Anandan who is listed among the 21 suspects in the Jain Commission's final report on the Rajiv Gandhi's assassination not only attended the wedding, but made pro-Eelam speeches and even some pro-LTTE references. The Jain Commission has said that the role of Kasi Anandan apart from 20 other suspects in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination should be investigated."

Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, what I am saying is this.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You have only quoted that.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Yes. I quoted.

In fact, if you read my speech, all through, I have given only quotations. I have not made any specific allegations, except to say that I wrote to the Prime Minister, making these allegations and I had expected the Prime Minister to investigate it and give me a reply. He has acknowledged my letter. But he has not yet investigated and given me the report or if he has investigated, he has not sent me the report.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Your letter concerns this report?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: No. My earlier letter had allegations about two Ministers of his Government having LTTE connections.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Is that the one which I expunged now?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: It is upto you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. But I was quoting my letter only and this was not defamatory. I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister and does it become defamatory? Is it defamatory to write to the Prime Minister?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No. It is not like that.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: If the Prime Minister becomes so defamed, then I cannot write to him. I have only written to him and I have got an acknowledgment. He should find out whether it is a cock and bull story, and if it is so, then the Prime Minister should not have acknowledged. But he has acknowledged; so then, he should investigate because a Member of Parliament writes a letter to the Prime Minister. So, the Prime Minister should investigate. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN (BALASORE): Why is he quoting it, if he is not making any allegation? He indirectly makes those allegations. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt him now. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN: It is very cunning of him. It is actually an allegation. ... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: Sir, you are within your powers to expunge anything which you think is defamatory, but I have not made any such thing.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN :Sir, he is not the only intelligent person here. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Subramanian Swamy, I have not expunged anything and everything. I have only expunged the item which is referred to under this Rule.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :But that Rule does not apply to any part of my speech because I have quoted entirely from newspapers. It is now upto you and I have not made any allegation.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is all right. You may go ahead.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :Sir, I now come to the final point.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, under the relevant Rule, he has to produce and place the documents before the House -- whatever letter which he has written to the Prime Minister and the other newspaper clippings that he has got in hand should be placed here.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is already over because it is already expunged.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, it is this angle of the dismissal of Admiral Bhagwat that is ominous which has raised serious questions and it is on this basis that the AIADMK leader withdrew her support to this Government.

Before I conclude, there was one refrain that was there in the speeches made by Ministers and certain speakers on behalf of the ruling party, that is, in 13 months not a single case of corruption has come to light. Here, let me read out a question that was filed by me and was answered by the Prime Minister on 24.2.99. With your permission, I would like to read it:

"Will the Prime Minister be pleased to state whether the Prime Minister has received any petition seeking his sanction required under the Prevention of Corruption Act against any Minister; if so, the details.

"Whether attention of the Government is being drawn to the news item appearing in the Free Press Journal, Mumbai dated 13th January, 1999 where it has been reported that the CBI has completed its investigation concerning certain charges levelled against the particular Minister; if so, the details."

The answer has been given by the Minister of State of Personnel.

"A petition has been received from Dr.Subramanian Swamy, Member of Parliament seeking sanction of prosecution of a Central Minister under Prevention of Corruption Act, 1988, and the matter is receiving attention of the Government.

I also received a letter directly from the Prime Minister himself dated 21st January, 1999. I quote:

"Dear Dr. Swamy, I have received your letter of January 14,1999 regarding sanction of prosecution of Shri Ram Jethmalani, the Minister of Urban Affairs and Employment."

In that letter I had enclosed the extract of CBI Report on Shri Ram Jethmalani's corruption. I had enclosed it to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister also got it directly from the CBI but I had also enclosed the extract of the report which I got from my source and wanted to know whether it was correct. According to CBI, the orders issued by the Minister would reportedly had huge financial implication and was not in consonance with the allotment letter and the order of the Delhi High Court and the order of the Additional District Judge. The loss accruing to HUDCO, if the Minister's order were to be implemented can be perceived in so many ways.... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, again the same rule applies here also.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :I had asked for sanction to prosecute. It is a statutory right.

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, he is making an allegation against a Minister. The rule is very clear.... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Please do not interrupt. I have asked under the statute of Prevention of Corruption Act. A private citizen has a right ... (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR:Sir, he should follow the Rules of Procedure.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :There is no Rule of Procedure.... (Interruptions) The Prevention of Corruption Act is a statute and under the statute I had asked for sanction from the Prime Minister to prosecute him .. (Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM:Is it correct on your part to quote correspondences here and violate the Rules of this House?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I asked for sanction from the Prime Minister to prosecute.... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, Rule 353 very much applies in this case also.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :I am bringing to the notice of the House that there is a petition seeking sanction of the Prime Minister to give me permission to prosecute a Minister on charge of corruption. It is wrong for them to say that there is no single case of allegation of corruption.

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM:Sir, I am on a point of order.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Swamy, the same rule applies here also. You are writing to the Prime Minister under certain rule.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : The Prime Minister is the statutory authority to give me sanction. Without sanction, I cannot proceed... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When you take up that very matter on the floor of the House, you have to do it under certain rule.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, I am not making an allegation here... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is coming in the proceedings.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, it is an allegation... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : I am asking for sanction to prosecute the Minister.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You have asked the Prime Minister. But that is being taken up on the floor of the House. It is going to be a part of the proceedings. If it is going to be on the record, it has to be under the rules.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, you please look at the rules and you apply the rules. If you feel that this is not under the rules, you strike it out... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Your reading of the question and answer is all right.

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : If my question is permissible on record then all that I am saying should be permitted.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No. It is not linked with that. ¸ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ : ªÉä ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÉä Ê¨ÉºÉ±ÉÒb÷ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : There is a petition pending where I am seeking the permission of the Prime Minister who is a statutory authority... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, you should not allow him to speak like this... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, the Minister must know how to maintain the decorum... (Interruptions). I know the background under which you come. ¸ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ : <x½þäÆ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉxÉÒ SÉÉÊ½þB* SHRI VAIKO : He said that 'he knows the background of the Minister'... (Interruptions).

(Interruptions). He is casting aspersion on the Minister who belongs to SC/ST community.

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, I have every right to speak... (Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: If there is anything unparliamentary, I will expunge it.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : Sir, I will tell you what is the background ... (Interruptions). He belongs to Pattali Makkal Katchi party... (Interruptions)

SHRI C. SREENIVASAN : Sir, he is ready to explain it. Sir, you are the custodian of the House. He will explain everything... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All those things that you have referred here, if they are not permitted within the framework of rules, I will expunge them.

... (Interruptions)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY :Sir, that goes without saying... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: Sir, he said: "I know about your background"... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: What did he say?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: I am not a smuggler; I am not a racketeer; I am not a blackmailer. Then, what background is he talking about?..(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Background of whom?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI DALIT EZHILMALAI: How can he talk about a Minister like that?..(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Fatmi, why do you not sit down? I am on my legs.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ¶ÉÆEò®ú |ÉºÉÉnù VÉÉªÉºÉ´ÉÉ±É (´ÉÉ®úÉhÉºÉÒ): nùÊ±ÉiÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ EòÉä BäºÉÉ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +¶ÉÉäEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ : ªÉä BäºÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EªÉÉäÆ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, <xÉEòÉä ¨ÉÉ¡òÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉxÉÒ ½þÉäMÉÒ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ: EªÉÉ BäºÉä ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÉä EòÆ]ÅÉä±É Eò®úäÆMÉä, +É{É ¤ÉèÊ`öB* ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You may conclude now, Mr. Swamy.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will examine all those derogatory remarks and if they are found to be derogatory, I will completely expunge it.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please sit down. There is a limit. I ask the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs to control him.

... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ºÉÖ®úäxpù |ÉºÉÉnù ªÉÉnù´É (VÉ½þÉxÉÉ¤ÉÉnù) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, VÉ¤É |É¦ÉÖxÉÉlÉ ÊºÉÆ½þ VÉÒ iÉÒxÉ ÊnùxÉ ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉä ½þèÆ, iÉÉä º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ nùÉä ÊnùxÉ EªÉÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±É ºÉEòiÉä* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ: EªÉÉ Eò®úxÉÉ ½þè? ¸ÉÒ ºÉÖ®úäxpù |ÉºÉÉnù ªÉÉnù´É : ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÉä Bb÷VÉÉäxÉÇ Eò®úäÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you please conclude, Mr. Swamy?

... (Interruptions)

SHRI MOHAMMAD ALI ASHRAF FATMI (DARBHANGA): This is too much, Sir. How can we come at 11 o'clock tomorrow?..(Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ºÉÖ®úäxpù |ÉºÉÉnù ªÉÉnù´É : ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ <iÉxÉÒ ®úÉiÉ iÉEò ¤Éè`öEò®ú ºÉ¨ÉZÉ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉÉBÆMÉä, ºÉÖxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ {ÉÉBÆMÉä* VÉ¤É {ÉÉÊ±ÉÇªÉÉ¨ÉäÆ]õ xÉ½þÒÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉäMÉÒ iÉÉä nùä¶É´ÉÉºÉÒ EòèºÉä ºÉ¨ÉZÉäÆMÉä* ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ (Ê¶É´É½þ®ú): ¨Éä®úÉ ÊxÉªÉ¨É 376 Eòä iÉ½þiÉ ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ EòÉ |É¶xÉ ½þè* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ: EòÉä<Ç {ÉÉ<Æ]õ +É¡ò +Éb÷Ç®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè, +É{ÉEòÉä º´ÉÉ¨ÉÒ VÉÒ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉÉ ½þè, +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉBÆ* DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : In conclusion, I would say that this Government has brought disgrace to the country whether it is on the question of national security or national integrity or demoralisation of Armed Forces or on the question of corruption.

Therefore, this Government must go. The Motion must be voted out. I would tell them that it is better to get out before they are thrown out.

With these words, I conclude. Thank you.

into political turmoil because of the foolish act of the political broker and the blackmailer...(Interruptions)

SHRI R. MUTHIAH (PERIYAKULAM): Sir, can he utter such words?...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It was a request made from both the sides that he would speak for a minute.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI KADAMBUR M.R. JANARTHANAN (TIRUNELVELI): It is an unparliamentary expression. It must be expunged...(Interruptions)

name...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, I will expunge the unparliamentary words.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please go back to your seats. SHRI KADAMBUR M.R. JANARTHANAN : Our leader has given the letter of withdrawal of support. The whole thing is going on. Is it an act of foolishness? Is the Presidential order an act of foolishness? You must give a ruling. All the Members are equal...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Muthiah, if there is any matter which deserves to be expunged, I will do it. Why are you shouting now? Shri Baalu, do not provoke them.

our party during the course of his speech. He has made certain remarks saying that foreign exchange violation has been committed by the DMK and its party people. But here is a letter addressed to the Governor of Tamil Nadu. Dr. Swamy, is it correct?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY : What is the relevance of this letter? Sir, did he produce the letter?...(Interruptions)

1993 seeking permission of the Governor to prosecute Ms. Jayalalitha. This is a letter which was written by a Member of the House. I quote:

"Ms. Jayalalitha is guilty of foreign exchange violations and racketeering. Ms. Jayalalitha owns a secret illegal bank account worth at least $21 million (about Rs.62 crore) in the Union Bank of Switzerland, Zurich."

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already said that nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions) * SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN (COOCHBEHAR): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, on Friday in the leaders meeting, it was decided that all the political parties will get time. I am sorry to say that I did not get the chance and the time is going to be 4 now. I do not know why I am not getting the chance.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Your party is there, Shri Owaisi is there, the Republican Party is there. Five or six names are there. I am going to call all of them.

... (Interruptions)

__________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN:If all the senior Members should get respect, am I not a senior Member? I should get the chance. Am I a new Member? My party is a smaller group. Why are you ignoring it? I would like to know it very clearly.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not mistake me.

SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN : It is not a question of mistaking. I would like to have some justice from your end because you are supreme as long as you are in the Chair.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Pradhan, your name is there. You are going to be the next speaker.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN : You should not deal in such a manner. It is a matter of sorrow.

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BAPIRAJU (NARSAPUR): Sir, what is he talking about? Why are you listening to him, Sir?... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All those derogatory remarks will be expunged. b÷É. ¶ÉEòÒ±É +½þ¨Énù (¨ÉvÉÖ¤ÉxÉÒ) : ªÉä VÉÉä ¤ÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ´É½þ `öÒEò xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : ... * +ÉÊJÉ®ú <ºÉEòä {ÉÒUôä EòÉèxÉ ºÉä EòÉ®úhÉ ½þèÆ? ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò <ºÉ ºÉ¤ÉEòä {ÉÒUôä MÉ½þ®úÒ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ ºÉÉÊVÉ¶É ½þè +Éè®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä +ÊºlÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É ½þè* ½þ¨É ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä {ÉIÉ ¨ÉäÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ¦ÉÒ ½þèÆ EªÉÉäÆÊEò <xÉEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä {ÉÉäJÉ®úxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +hÉÖ¤É¨É EòÉ {É®úÒIÉhÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) DR. SHAKEEL AHMAD : Sir, have you expunged those derogatory remarks made by him?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already said that those derogatory remarks generated by him will be expunged. ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : iÉ¨ÉÉ¨É +ÉÊlÉÇEò |ÉÊiÉ¤ÉÆvÉÉäÆ Eòä ¤ÉÉ´ÉVÉÚnù ´ÉÉVÉ{ÉäªÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä +ÉÊlÉÇEò ºÉ¨ÉºªÉÉ+ÉäÆ ºÉä =¤ÉÉ®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É EòÒ +Éè®ú ´É½þ EòÉ¨ÉªÉÉ¤É ®ú½þä* ½þ¨É <ºÉÊ±ÉB <ºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä {ÉIÉ ¨ÉäÆ JÉc÷ä ½þèÆ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä +ÊMxÉ-2 EòÉ ºÉ¡ò±É {É®úÒIÉhÉ ÊEòªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ªÉ½þ BEò Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ ¨ÉÊ½þ±ÉÉ EòÒ MÉ½þ®úÒ ºÉÉÊVÉ¶É ½þè, ªÉ½þ ¨ÉèÆ nùÉ´Éä Eòä ºÉÉlÉ Eò½þxÉä Eòä Ê±ÉB JÉc÷É ½þÖ+É ½þÚÆ* MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)** MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Amar Roy Pradhan.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No, I have called Shri Pradhan. ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ ®úÉ´É±Éä (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç nùÊIÉhÉ-¨ÉvªÉ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <xÉEòÉä EòxÉE±ÉÚb÷ Eò®úxÉä nùÒÊVÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ______________________________________________________________________________ * Expungaed as ordered by the chair ** Not recorded ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : ½þ¨É BEò Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÉ¡ò iÉÉè®ú {É®ú Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +MÉ®ú +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ VÉèºÉä ´ªÉÊEiÉ EòÉä ®úÉ¤Éc÷Ò nùä´ÉÒ +Éè®ú ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ SÉÖxÉÉ´É Eò®úxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ iÉÉä +xÉ{Égø +Éè®ú MÉÆ´ÉÉ®ú ¦ÉMÉ´ÉiÉÒ nùä´ÉÒ EòÉä ¦ÉÒ SÉÖxÉxÉÉ {ÉºÉÆnù Eò®úäÆMÉä, ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ EòÉä xÉ½þÒÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All those derogatory remarks are expunged.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)* SHRI P.C. CHACKO (IDUKKI): Sir, we have been raising this. What is your ruling?

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All those indecent expressions I have expunged. What more do you want?

Yes, Shri Pradhan, please speak. ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ: +¦ÉÒ EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ½þ¨É {É®ú +É®úÉä{É ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ* EòÉÆOÉäºÉ Eòä Ê¶É´É¶ÉÆEò®ú VÉÒ xÉä ½þÉìºÉÇ ]ÅäÊb÷ÆMÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÒ* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, +É{ÉxÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò +É{É ®úäEòÉb÷Ç nùäJÉäÆMÉä* EªÉÉ +É{ÉxÉä ®úäEòÉb÷Ç nùäJÉÉ? ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ½þÉÆ, nùäJÉÉ* ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : EªÉÉ =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨É {É®ú +É®úÉä{É ½þè? ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* SHRI VAIKO : Shri Shiv Shankar made a charge ... (Interruptions)

__________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN :Mr. Deputy-Speaker Sir, I stand to oppose the Motion of Confidence moved by the hon. Prime Minister, Shri Atal Behari Vajpayee... (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO : Sir, Shri P. Shiv Shanker made a reference to Shri Anand Mohan. ... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ +ÉxÉxnù ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ...* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions) ... * MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: All those expressions made by Shri Anand Mohan will not go on record. Shri Anand Mohan, this is not the way to speak.

(Interruptions) ... * MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM :Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, he is referring to the horse trading charge. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Major General Khanduri, I have examined the matter. I have already conveyed it to him.

... (Interruptions)

MAJOR GENERAL BHUVAN CHANDRA KHANDURI, AVSM :I want to know in what context his name was mentioned. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have examined it and I have conveyed it to him. What are you talking?

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except what Shri Amar Roy Pradhan speaks.

(Interruptions) ... * ____________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded SHRI AMAR ROY PRADHAN : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, the hon. Home Minister is here. He speaks off and on about the nation's unity and integrity. As a patriot, I too feel that India is one from Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Kutch to Kohima. Naturually it is our mother land. If it is so, VÉxÉxÉÒ VÉx¨É¦ÉÚÊ¨É¶SÉ º´ÉMÉÉÇnùÊ{É MÉ®úÒªÉºÉÒ* But the BJP Government's action is not for the integration. They are encouraging communalism; they are encouraging casteism; and at the same time they are encouraging regionalism.

The hon. Finance Minister is not here. I can say that within these last 13 months, this Government has neglected the eastern part of the country, particularly the North-Eastern part of the country. Because these areas mainly have the tribal population and the Christian people, the Government is neglecting that part of the country.

Sir, they are widening the regional imbalances further. Most of the investments were being cornered by a few States. The entire House should know that these investments were being cornered by Maharashtra, Gujarat and Andhra Pradesh. The share of these three States accounted for 73 per cent of the total number of 1,349 foreign technical and financial projects which had been cleared in the first nine months of the year 1998-99.

They are developing only three States in the country--Maharashtra, Gujarat and Andhra Pradesh. They are not thinking about the rest of the country. Out of 1,300 projects, only two projects are in the North-Eastern Region. These are the regional imbalances. These regional imbalances are going to be widened more and more.

The hon. Home Minister is here. Let me ask him one question. Shri Advaniji knows that there are 126 Indian Enclaves. When he was on this side and Shri Narasimha Rao was the Prime Minister, he raised this question.

I too supported that question. What is going to happen to these 126 Indian enclaves? You know at that time, it was very clearly stated. Yes, I can give you the number also. It is Question No.205, dated 5th December 1991 of this Lok Sabha. The Question was raised by Shri L.K. Advani and Shri Amar Roy Pradhan. The main Question related to the Tinbigha corridor to Bangladesh. At that time, it was the hon. Minister of State for External Affairs who stated that the Supreme Court had clarified that. He has quoted the International Court of Justice, including the judge, who was one of the most eminent judges of Supreme Court that the right of servitude is a right of access which under International Law every country must provide to every country enclave of other country. This judgement was given by the Supreme Court Bench comprising of the then Chief Justice, S. Mukherjee, Justice M.H. Kania, Justice K.J. Shetty, Justice K.N. Saikia and Justice S.C. Agarwal. The judgement was delivered on the 5th May, 1990. This was the position. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, what is the condition in these 126 enclaves? In your Lakshadweep, I think, the total population is near-about one lakh but here in these 126 enclaves, the population is about two lakhs. But they are living in the rule of jungle. There is no school; there is no hospital; there is no road; there is no relief; there is no Panchayat; there is no Police; there is no military; and there is nothing of this sort. Are they not Indian citizens? It is the highest democratic body. We all should be ashamed that in India for the last 50 years, two lakh people are being isolated from the mainland. They have got nothing to do. They are only at the mercy of the Bangladesh people. But my question to you, hon. Home Minister is this. When you were in the Opposition, you spoke loudly about these Indian citizens. But in the last 13 months, you did not take any care of them. Why is it so? It is because you know very clearly that 80 per cent of these people who are living in that part of Indian enclaves surrounded by Bangladesh is Muslim and the rest 20 per cent is Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe people. That is why, you are not taking any care. At that time when you were in the Opposition, you only shed crocodile tears. But now within 13 months, have you enquired about their condition? How are they living in that part? Do you know there is starvation death of 64 people? Do you know that? Have you enquired about it? Have you asked the Bangladesh Government that you would like to have talks across the border and you would like to go to the Indian enclaves? Have you ever asked them? Can you tell me? Your earlier decision that they are Indian citizens was only to take some political mileage. That is why, you spoke for these people. But while you are in the administration for the last 13 months, you forgot them. Certainly you forget them. Is it because of the fact that you know that these people are Muslims, these people are Scheduled Caste people and if they once come to the country, to India, then, the Muslims and the Scheduled Castes people will be more?

Sir, today, I would like to say only one thing with a heavy heart. I read it in my college days. I can endure your brutality but not your hypocrisy. I charge the Government.

I charge the Government, this hypocrite Government that they shed crocodile tears for those people. But they did nothing for the people. They have got good relations with Bangladesh. Why did they not do it? Can the Government tell me?

So, I oppose the Motion that has been moved by the hon. Prime Minister. Though as Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee I have got great regard for him, -- only for Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee as a person I have regard -- he may curtail that part of the Prime Minister of India. Except for that Prime Minister of India, for Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee, I have got great respect for him.

Anyway, I oppose the Motion that has been moved by him.

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Chennai issue of The Hindu, dated February 3, 1999 ªÉ½þ B±ÉÉ<VÉ iÉ¨ÉÉ¨É EòÉ +{ÉxÉÉ º]õä]õ¨ÉèÆ]õ ½þè +Éè®ú +{ÉxÉä º]õä]õ¨ÉèÆ]õ ¨ÉäÆ +±ÉÉ<VÉ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ -

I quote:

"The joint statement issued at the end of the meeting and signed by almost all those who were present in the Coordination Committee meeting, demanded that the BJP should ensure that the prestige and cohesiveness of the coalition are not diluted by organisations belonging to its ideological fraternity." JÉÖnù <xÉEòä B±ÉÉ<VÉ ¤ÉÒ.VÉä.{ÉÒ. EòÉä ´ÉÉxÉÇ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò ½þ¨É ´ÉÉxÉÇ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò +{ÉxÉÒ +É<Êb÷ªÉÉä±ÉÉäÊVÉEò±É ÊºÉº]õ®ú +ÉMÉÇäxÉÉ<VÉä¶ÉÆºÉ EòÉä Ê½þÆnùÖºiÉÉxÉ Eòä ºÉäEªÉÖ±ÉÊ®úV¨É, Ê½þÆnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ VÉ¨½þÚÊ®úªÉiÉ +Éè®ú =ºÉEòÒ b÷ä¨ÉÉäFòäºÉÒ EòÉä iÉ¤ÉÉ½þ +Éè®ú ¤É®ú¤ÉÉnù Eò®úxÉä EòÒ ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ UôÚ]õ nùä ®úJÉÒ ½þè, <x½þäÆ ±ÉMÉÉ¨É nùÉä* ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +¤É +É{É ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ EòÒÊVÉB* ¸ÉÒ VÉÒ.B¨É. ¤ÉxÉÉiÉ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ : ºÉ®ú, ¨ÉèÆxÉä iÉÉä +¦ÉÒ ¶ÉÖ°ü ½þÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ VÉ±nùÒ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä JÉi¨É Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ <ºÉºÉä VªÉÉnùÉ <Êxb÷E]õ¨ÉèÆ]õ +É{ÉEòÉä Eò½þÉÆ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉÉ½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò SÉSÉÇäVÉ EòÉä VÉ±ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ, Ê¨É¶ÉxÉÊ®úªÉÉäÆ {É®ú ½þ¨É±Éä ½þÖB, ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä ÊVÉÆnùÉ VÉ±ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ, ¨ÉÖºÉ±É¨ÉÉxÉÉäÆ EòÉä {ÉÚ®úÒ EòÒ {ÉÚ®úÒ ¤ÉºiÉÒ JÉÉ±ÉÒ Eò®ú nùäxÉä {É®ú ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* ºEòÚ±É BVÉÚEòä¶ÉxÉ {É®ú Ê½þÆnùÖi´É EòÒ UôÉ{É ±ÉMÉÉxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É, iÉÉ®úÒJÉ EòÉä EòäºÉ®úÒ +ÆnùÉVÉ Eòä +Ænù®ú ®úÒ®úÉ<]õ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É, <ÆÊb÷ªÉxÉ EòÉì=ÆÊºÉ±É +Éì¡ò Ê½þº]ÅÒEò±É Ê®úºÉSÉÇ EòÉä BäºÉä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ¦É®ú nùäxÉÉ, VÉÉä BEò JÉÉºÉ xÉVÉÊ®úªÉÉ <xÉEòä VÉèºÉÉ ®úJÉiÉä ½þÉäÆ +Éè®ú iÉÉ®úÒJÉ EòÉä ¨ÉºÉJÉ Eò®úEòä ®úJÉxÉä EòÒ iÉÉEòiÉ +Éè®ú EòÚ´ÉiÉ ®úJÉiÉä ½þÉäÆ*

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(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ ¤É½þÖiÉ VÉ±nù ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ* ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¥É Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ¤Éè`öÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ =ºÉÒ iÉ®ú½þ lÉÉäc÷É ºÉÉ ºÉ¥É +É{ÉºÉä SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* +ÉºÉÉ¨É Eòä +Ænù®ú ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉèÊ®ú]õÒVÉ JÉÉè¡òVÉnùÉ ½þèÆ <ºÉÊ±ÉB ÊEò Eò½þÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè ÊEò <±É±ÉÒMÉ±É ¨ÉÉ<OÉèÆ]ºÉ Êb÷]õ®úÊ¨ÉxÉä¶ÉxÉ ¤ÉÉìªÉ Ê]Å¤ªÉÚxÉ±É BE]õ EòÉä +¤É Ê®ú{ÉÒ±É ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉªÉäMÉÉ +Éè®ú ¨ÉÉ<xÉÉèÊ®ú]õÒVÉ JÉÉè¡òWÉnùÉ ½þè ÊEò , EªÉÉ Ê¡ò®ú {É½þ±Éä VÉèºÉä VÉÖ±¨É ÊºÉiÉ¨É, {É½þ±Éä VÉèºÉÒ xÉÉ<ÆºÉÉ¡òÒ +Éè®ú {É½þ±Éä VÉèºÉÒ vÉÉÆvÉ±ÉÒ ´ÉÉÊ{ÉºÉ +ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ½þÉ±ÉÉiÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉ¨ÉxÉä +É ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ½þÉÆ, =c÷ÒºÉÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ Eò½þÒ MÉªÉÒ ÊEò ´É½þÉÆ +MÉ®ú Ê¨É¶ÉxÉ®úÒVÉ EòÉä ÊVÉÆnùÉ VÉ±ÉÉªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* iÉÉä BEò Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè* {É½þ±Éä iÉÉä BEò VÉ¨ÉÉiÉ ÊVÉºÉEòä >ð{É®ú <±VÉÉ¨É ±ÉMÉªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè, ½þÉä¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú =ºÉEòÉä E±ÉÒxÉ ÊSÉ]õ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* =ºÉEòÉä ¶É½þ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =ºÉEòÉä ½þ´ÉÉ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* =ºÉEòÉä +Éè®ú VªÉÉnùÉ <xÉEò®úäVÉ¨ÉèÆ]õ nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* Ê¡ò®ú ½þ¨ÉºÉä Eò½þÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þÉÆ, BEò VÉÊº]õºÉ ´ÉÉvÉ´ÉÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ ÊnùªÉÉ MÉªÉÉ ½þè* EªÉÉ ½þÉ±É VÉÊº]õºÉ ´ÉÉvÉ´ÉÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ EòÉ ½þÖ+É? EòÉä<Ç <x£òÉº]ÅESÉ®ú xÉ½þÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉ ½þÉäEò®ú VÉÊº]õºÉ ´ÉÉvÉ´ÉÉ Eò¨ÉÒ¶ÉxÉ xÉä ½þEòÚ¨ÉiÉ EòÉä JÉiÉ Ê±ÉJÉÉ ÊEò ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ ºÉ±ÉÚEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉÉlÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* VÉÊº]õºÉ ´ÉÉvÉ´ÉÉ {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉ ½þÖB ÊEò ´Éä JÉÖnù +{ÉxÉä PÉ®ú Eòä +Ænù®ú Ê½þªÉÊ®úÆMÉ Eò®úxÉä {É®ú ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚ®ú ½þèÆ* VÉÊº]õºÉ ´ÉÉvÉ´ÉÉ ½þEòÚ¨ÉiÉ EòÉä xÉÉä]õ Ê±ÉJÉiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú =ºÉ xÉÉä]õ ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ Ê±ÉJÉiÉä ½þèÆ* ´Éä Ê±ÉJÉiÉä ½þèÆ, ¨ÉèÆ EòÉä]õ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* "It also shows perhaps the Central Government is not serious about the functioning of this Commission." ªÉä ½þÉ±ÉiÉ ½þè* Eò±É Eò½þÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò <Æº]õÒ]ªÉÚ¶ÉxºÉ EòÉä b÷èxÉÒOÉä]õ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) BEò ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä Ê±ÉB iÉÉä +É{ÉxÉä nùÉä Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ¨ÉäÆ PÉÆ]õÒ ¤ÉVÉÉ nùÒ lÉÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ +¤É <xÉEòÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉiÉä ½þÖB {Éxpù½þ Ê¨ÉxÉ]õ ½þÉä MÉB ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Do not caste aspersion on the Chair. ¸ÉÒ VÉÒ.B¨É. ¤ÉxÉÉiÉ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ : ½þEòÒEòiÉ iÉ±JÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* |ÉvÉÉxÉ¨ÉÆjÉÒ xÉä Eò½þ ÊnùªÉÉ ÊEò ªÉÊnù <ºÉÉ<ªÉÉäÆ {É®ú ½þ¨É±Éä ½þÖB iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉäÆ Eòx´ÉVÉÇxºÉ {É®ú xÉè¶ÉxÉ±É Êb÷¤Éä]õ Eò®úxÉÒ {Éc÷äMÉÒ* ªÉ½þ BEò ÊEòº¨É EòÉ ¤ÉgøÉ´ÉÉ nùäxÉÉ ½þè* Eòx´ÉVÉÇxºÉ {É®ú xÉè¶ÉxÉ±É Êb÷¤Éä]õ, BEò ¦ÉªÉÉxÉEò EòÉäÊ¶É¶É ÊEò {ÉÚ®úä nùä¶É EòÉä nùÉä Ê½þººÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉÆ]õ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉB, EòÖUô ´Éä VÉÉä Eòx´ÉVÉÇxºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú EòÖUô ´Éä VÉÉä Eòx´ÉVÉÇxºÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉ½þÒÆ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉä* <ºÉÒÊ±ÉB ¨ÉèÆ <xÉ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ EòÉä +É{ÉEòÒ ¤ÉäºÉ¥ÉÒ +Éè®ú ¤ÉäSÉèxÉÒ EòÉä nùäJÉiÉä ½þÖB JÉi¨É Eò®úiÉä ½þÖB ªÉ½þ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò nùÉ´ÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +ÉVÉ Êb÷¡òèÆºÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ Eò½þÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨ÉxÉä {ÉÉäJÉ®úhÉ, +ÊMxÉ, ½þ¨ÉxÉä nùä¶É EòÉä Êb÷¡òèÆºÉ Eòä xÉÖEiÉäxÉVÉ®ú ºÉä ¨ÉÖ±Eò EòÉä iÉÉEòiÉ´É®ú ¤ÉxÉÉªÉÉ* {ÉÉäJÉ®úhÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¦ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ¤ÉÉ®úEò¤ÉÉnù nùä nùÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¤ÉÉnù ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä ¦ÉÉèÆb÷É{ÉxÉ +ÉªÉÉ, =ºÉxÉä ¨ÉÖ±Eò EòÒ ¶ÉÉxÉ +Éè®ú <VVÉiÉ ÊMÉ®úÉ<Ç* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Êb÷¡òèÆºÉ EòÉ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè* Government expenditure has fallen to 14 per cent from 15.40 per cent. Êb÷¡òèÆºÉ BEºÉ{ÉèÆb÷ÒSÉ®ú Eò¨É +Éè®ú Eò½þÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨É =ºÉEòÉ JªÉÉ±É ®úJÉiÉä ½þèÆ* +MÉ®ú OÉÉìºÉ b÷Éä¨ÉèÊº]õEò |ÉÉäb÷E]õ nùäJÉäÆ iÉÉä Êb÷¡òèÆºÉ Eòä >ð{É®ú 2.54 ¡òÒºÉnù ºÉä PÉ]õEò®ú 2.28 {É®ú SÉ±ÉÉ MÉªÉÉ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¨ÉèÆ ½þÉä¨É Ê¨ÉÊxÉº]õ®ú +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ ¶ÉÖÊFòªÉÉ +nùÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þÖB <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä JÉi¨É Eò°üÆMÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ¨ÉÖÊº±É¨É ±ÉÒMÉ ¦ÉÒ EòÉä<Ç {ÉÉä±ÉÒÊ]õEò±É +xÉ]õSÉä¤É±É xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{ÉEòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ ¶ÉÖÊFòªÉÉ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉä ªÉEòÒxÉ Ênù±ÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò VÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ¦ÉÒ iÉÉ±±ÉÖEò ½þè, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ¦ÉÒ +MÉ®ú ÊEòºÉÒ ºÉä ¨ÉÖJÉÉ±É¡òiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, Ê|ÉÆÊºÉ{É±ºÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÖÊxÉªÉÉnùÉäÆ {É®ú ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, ¨ÉÖJÉÉ±É¡òiÉ |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É EòÒ ¤ÉÖÊxÉªÉÉnùÉäÆ {É®ú ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè, EòÉ®úEònùÇMÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÖÊxÉªÉÉnùÉäÆ {É®ú ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* +ÉVÉ ªÉ½þ ½þÖEòÖ¨ÉiÉ VÉ¨½þÚÊ®úªÉiÉ Eòä Ê±ÉB, ºÉèEòÖ±ÉÊ®úWÉ¨É Eòä Ê±ÉB, xÉè¶ÉxÉ±É ÊºÉEªÉÖÊ®ú]õÒ Eòä Ê±ÉB BEò JÉiÉ®úÉ ¤ÉxÉÒ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè +Éè®ú <ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB ½þ¨É <ºÉ iÉWÉ´ÉÒWÉ EòÒ, <ºÉ ´ÉÉä]õ +Éì¡ò EòÉèx¡òÒb÷èÆºÉ EòÒ {ÉÚ®úÒ ¨ÉÖJÉÉ±É¡òiÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ, =ºÉä +Éè{ÉÉäWÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ªÉEòÒxÉ ®úJÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò nùä¶É ¤É½þÖiÉ VÉ±nù <xÉºÉä ÊxÉVÉÉiÉ {ÉÉ ±ÉäMÉÉ* THE MINISTER OF STEEL AND MINES (SHRI NAVEEN PATNAIK): Mr. Deputy-Speaker Sir, on behalf of my party, the Biju Janata Dal, I support the Motion moved by our hon. Prime Minister, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

In the last few days, there has been a talk of numbers game but Sir, I think we should all remember in this august House that there is only one number that matters and that number is the millions of citizens of our beloved country who are forced to live below the poverty line eking out a living on the very margins of existence. Yesterday, my hon. colleague Shri Yashwant Sinha pointed that the economic well-being of this nation should be the primary concern of each one of the people's representatives regardless of party affiliations. It should be a matter of pride for each Member of Parliament that today, our Government has kept India's economy stable when the economy of the world has been crashing around us. Countries like Russia, South Korea, Japan, Indonesia and CIS countries have all tried to save their economies but India has succeeded in it. We have been the lions at the gates. We have truly acted as the servants of the people. As the hon. Members of the Opposition are aware, our Government came into being during the worst slowdown in the steel industry that the world has ever known but as the cricketing slogan says, we have truly been in the safe pair of hands. As the world climbs out of the steel slowdown, my Ministry has ensured that Indians would not have to import steel from abroad for anything from taps to voting booths, railway lines, to housing constructions. Instead, we will be exporting these, the fact recognised by the United States of America which is already trying to stop the import of various Indian steel items. There are other achievements too of our Government and as far as my Ministry is concerned, I would like to point out some of those achievements.

Many of our Public Sector companies, namely, Hindustan Zinc Limited, NALCO, KIOCL, BALCO, NDMC etc. are doing very well. Also, in the mining sector, to simplify procedures and to delegate powers to State Governments, to attract capital and the state-of-the-art technology, the mining laws are being amended and it has been cleared by the Cabinet.

Setting up of a Nickel Extraction Technology Pilot Plant, if successful, will enable the State of Orissa to exploit its vast resources of nickel. Many licences for large area prospecting have been granted. Expeditious clearances of prospecting lease and mining leases have been ensured for the mineral development of the country. Again, I repeat that the world is going through a serious recession so far as the steel sector is concerned. But we certainly hope that steel will firm up at the end of this year both in our nation and in the world. So, we are also going for a turn-around proposal for SAIL and for the Vizag Steel Plant. These are being considered by the Government. Packages for the Bharat Refractories have been cleared. HSCL is under consideration.

Now, I would like to turn to my home State of Orissa. When my Party joined our coalition Government, the Vajpayee Government, we stated that we represent the poorest people of the poorest State in the nation. If our Government were to improve their conditions, then, indeed we will have achieved a great deal. In one year, our Government has committed itself to the massive development in Orissa. Nilachal Ispat Nigam, a Steel Plant, will go into production within a year. A new oil refinery at Paradeep in Orissa at an investment of almost Rs.10,000 crore is also being set up. This is the biggest single investment in the State made by the Centre in Independent India's history.

The Centre has taken great notice of the disparities of various regions in Orissa for the first time. We have ensured that the people of western Orissa will be partners in the development of the State by massively investing in communication networks, rail line, namely, the Talcher-Sambalpur line which was completed on last year's Independence Day. In fact, the survey of this very important line, which connects western Orissa to the coastal Orissa, was done virtually a century ago. During the tenure of our Government, we have completed this historical line which was important both for goods traffic and for the passengers in our State.

The Kurdha-Bolangir line is an extremely important line. It has also got an increased allocation. I would like to mention here that Mahatma Gandhi said that India is a nation of villages. But it can certainly be said that Orissa is a State of villages. Irrigation is critical to our State. It was the Biju Janata Dal which introduced the particular passage on irrigation in the National Agenda for Governance. I can proudly say that very recently in the Cabinet they agreed that for small, medium and large-scale irrigation projects, we would have the same benefits - as the North-Eastern States have of 75 per cent grant and 25 per cent loan. This is particularly important for the KBK Districts. You cannot call it a State package.

You have to call it a national package. As a whole, as every Member in this august House knows that KBK has been known for its alleged starvation deaths. It is triply important that irrigation be paid particular attention there and especially for the whole nation which has heard its name for alleged starvation deaths. ... (Interruptions) Certain Members of the House have mentioned the State of Orissa and they have also mentioned secularism. I do not think it is out of place to mention today that it is the second death anniversary of my late father, who was a Member of this House. I do not think anyone need doubt the patone such secular credentials of my family. I would like to mention here my family details. My father always contributed his freedom fighter's fund to Mother Teresa. I would also like to mention when you talk about the tragic episode of the murder of the Australian Missionary with his two sons, I think, the Congress party, its own Chief Minister resigned because of that. So, I think it is quite clear as to who took the responsibilities for that particular and horrible incident. I repeat again... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.C. CHACKO (IDUKKI): He took the moral responsibility. Nobody else took the responsibility.

SHRI NAVEEN PATNAIK: He took the responsibility or whatever you may call it. Again just go back to our State. A number of other decisions like the opening of various railway lines, also huge project to improve health care system in Orissa being aided by the World Bank, increased allocation under the State Plan for Orissa for speeding up development activities, greater focus for development of the KBK areas, by increased allocation of funds, and frequent monitoring by the Central Government. On the last Independence Day, the Prime Minister from the ramparts of the Red Fort declared the good works that would begin for the deprived KBK areas and indeed that has begun. Indeed, that is a great credit to our Government. I would like to end by saying about what will happen this morning. It is rather interesting that a little more than a year ago, I was a recent entrant to politics, a little more than a year ago, I had been a Member of Parliament for six months. It is extraordinary that the Congress then withdrew its support to exactly the same structure it is now recreating. While it is fascinating to see whether the Congress party will have this as a Sports Day every year and whether they think parliamentary elections should be held once in five years or once a year.

SHRI K. BAPIRAJU (NARSAPUR): Make it a sports event or you say whatever you want. You are a good man, we allow you say whatever you want.

SHRI NAVEEN PATNAIK: Indeed I am a good man. I am a new incumbent in this august House. I am asking you a question. Is it going to be an annual function?

SHRI K. BAPIRAJU : You observe it.

SHRI NAVEEN PATNAIK: I am observing it already. I have been an MP for about two years. So, indeed I observe it for myself. Over frequent elections are a colossal expense to the nation, a colossal loss of manpower to the nation. It is nothing to be taken lightly. What more can I say? Again I wish to thank you for letting me speak. Again, I want to congratulate and to thank our hon. Prime Minister, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee for what he has done for our great nation and for my beloved State.

SHRI P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): It is a privilege to be the last speaker. It is more of a privilege to speak at 0516 a.m. The Government is facing this Confidence Motion not because the Opposition parties thrust upon the Government such a situation.

It is a situation which has come because of the contradictions within the coalition and within the major party. I think this was not expected at this period of time, but we are witness to the activities of the Government which they were undertaking. The enemies were from within and not from outside. Shri Vajpayee is really a good statesman, but he is a fish out of water and has been facing so many difficulties from his own side. He has been facing these problems mainly from within his party.

Sir, Shri George Fernandes was saying in the House that some defence documents have been hijacked from the Government. I am sure that the Government itself is being hijacked by the contradictions within the Government. Due to paucity of time, I will not be able to present all the analysis which I wanted to present because we have to consider the fact that many hon. Members want to participate in this debate. So, I will spell out only the main points.

With regard to the attack on the minorities, much has been stated here. About 30 churches have been burnt in Gujarat and I also had an opportunity to go there and visit those places. But we have not been given any reply as to what exactly has been done there. A team has gone from here, but the team did not go to the exact places where the atrocities were committed. There have also been cases in Maharashtra where a resolution was passed by one of the Sangh Parivar organisations to the effect that the Christians, especially the Christian missionaries should leave the State within a particular period of time and if not, they will have to face the consequences. I do not think that any action has been taken in this regard.

Sir, many incidents of atrocities on the minorities took place in Orissa, Madhya Pradesh and in other parts of the country, but I do not think that the Government has come out with a proper account of what exactly could be done to see that such atrocities are averted in future. I think many incidents of atrocities took place because of the problems which arose within the major party.

Sir, saffronisation of education was intended to be done and it was a hidden agenda of this Government. It has been dealt with by many hon. Members. We saw it in the first Conference of State Education Ministers and it was widely reported in the Press. But this was not stopped with that Conference. We find that many persons heading the various academic bodies in this country have been changed and the tradition of bringing in very senior scholars and Vice-Chancellors of Universities to head such institutions has been done away with in the institutions like the NCTE, NCERT, ICSSR etc. In the Maulana Azad Institute of Asian Studies, a Director has been appointed recently. But he said that he was a retired police officer. Then, there is a criticism that scholars, who used to head institutions like the Indian Council of Historical Research, have been changed and new persons have been posted by the Search Committee of the Ministry of Human Resource Development. That Committee itself is a body of scholars and eminent persons, but that has also been changed to suit the needs of the present Government.

I do not want to take time of the House any more. But, I think, I should touch the issue of farmers. As you know, it has been dealt with by many hon. Members. There have been suicides by farmers in many parts of India, especially in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and some areas in the South. In Kerala also, the Government knows very well that the farmers are getting a very low price - mainly in cash crops. Not only the farmers but also the whole State of Kerala has been ruined. The Government of India could not do much in this respect. Especially the price of rubber has come down from Rs. 70 per kg to Rs. 25 per kg within a period of two to two-and-a-half years. The Government, which has been in power for one year, has seen it coming down from Rs. 40 to Rs. 25 per kg but nothing could be done. This has affected not only the economy of the Kerala State but it has also affected the whole of India because we are producing about six lakh tonnes of rubber. We are one of the major producers of rubber in the world. So, this is something which the Government should have taken up very seriously. The price which was fixed at Rs. 34.05 has not been given to the farmers. Now, if this Government could spare, say, Rs. 200 crore or Rs. 300 crore for the farmers, they would survive. Now, the farmers could not survive. I do not know whether this Government will get a chance to do anything in this regard now because its hours are numbered.

With regard to tea, cardamom, coffee, pepper, etc., the Sri Lankan Award is causing a lot of problems. The Government had stated that something would be done. I do not think that much could be done in this regard.

With regard to the new import policy, which has been mentioned by many hon. Members, especially, the farmers of Kerala have been very seriously affected because free import of tea and many of the spices and rubber goods, etc., has been allowed. This is going to cause a lot of problems.

Now, with regard to other aspects like corruption, inefficiency and bureaucratic problems, which have been caused during the regime of this Government, I do not want to deal with these any further. But I would say that the hopes have been lost. The youth of this country and the rural folk of this country are totally dissatisfied with what has been delivered. So, I think, it is time to go. Therefore, we will call it a day. I think, I will stop by saying this. I oppose the Motion.

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SHRI P.C. CHACKO : But there is no allegation in that... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGALAM: He should not refer to anybody who is not a Member of the House. There were no allegations at that time also... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ : b÷ÉE]õ®ú ±ÉÉäÊ½þªÉÉ xÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É º´ÉäiÉ±ÉÉxÉÉ Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É<Ç lÉÒ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) SHRI P.R. KUMARAMANGALAM: Otherwise, we will make the same charge. They should also give a proof for that... (Interruptions) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ : ºÉÆºÉnùÒªÉ EòÉªÉÇ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ BäºÉä EòèºÉä =`ö Eò®ú JÉc÷ä ½þÉä MÉB? ¨ÉnùxÉ ±ÉÉ±É JÉÖ®úÉxÉÉ VÉÒ EòÒ iÉ®ú½þ +É{É ¦ÉÒ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ {Énù ºÉä ¤ÉJÉÉÇºiÉ ½þÉä VÉÉBÆMÉä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) b÷ÉE]õ®ú ±ÉÉäÊ½þªÉÉ xÉä Eò½þÉ lÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É º´ÉäiÉ±ÉÉxÉÉ Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É<Ç lÉÒ, =ºÉEòÒ VÉ¤É ¤ÞÉVÉä¶É ÊºÉÆ½þ ºÉä ¶ÉÉnùÒ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç iÉÉä ´É½þ ®úÉ¨É +Éè®ú EÞò¹hÉ EòÒ ¤É½þÚ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç* ´É½þ Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ ¤É½þÚ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç* +É{É EªÉÉ =x½þäÆ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ Eò½þäÆMÉä? EªÉÉ +É{ÉEòÉä =xÉEòÒ ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ {É®ú ºÉÆnùä½þ ½þè? Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤É½þÖ+ÉäÆ EòÉä +{ÉxÉÉxÉä +Éè®ú ºÉ¨¨ÉÉxÉ nùäxÉä ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É¶´ÉÉºÉ Eò®úiÉÒ ½þè* ªÉ½þÉÆ EòÒ ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤É½þÖ+ÉäÆ EòÉä +¨ÉªÉÉÇÊnùiÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* ¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÉäÊxÉªÉÉ MÉÉÆvÉÒ º´ÉMÉÒÇªÉ ®úÉVÉÒ´É MÉÉÆvÉÒ VÉÒ EòÒ vÉ¨ÉÇ {ÉixÉÒ ½þèÆ* =x½þäÆ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ Eò½þ Eò®ú Êb÷¨ÉÉì®úä±ÉÉ<VÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É EòÒ MÉ<Ç* +É{É Uô±ÉÒ ½þèÆ* +É{É Ê½þxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ EòÒ ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ EòÉ MÉ±ÉiÉ nùÉ´ÉÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ªÉ½þ ºÉÆºEÞòÊiÉ EòÉä ¨ÉVÉ¤ÉÚiÉ Eò®úxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè* +É{É Uô±É EòÉ EòÉ¨É ¨ÉiÉ EòÊ®úB* "VÉ±É EòÉ nùÒ{É xÉ VÉ±É {ÉÉBMÉÉ, Uô±É EòÉ ®úÉVÉ xÉ½þÒÆ SÉ±É {ÉÉBMÉÉ*" +É{É Ê¤É½þÉ®ú EòÉ ¤ÉÆ]õ´ÉÉ®úÉ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨É <ºÉEòÉ Ê´É®úÉävÉ Eò®úiÉä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨É BäºÉÒ ½þÖEòÚ¨ÉiÉ EòÉä vÉEEòÉ nùäEò®ú ½þ]õÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú +ÉxnùÉä±ÉxÉ Eò®úEòä ½þ]õÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ* JÉÖ¶ÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè ÊEò ºÉÆºÉnù ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÆJªÉÉ Eòä Ê½þºÉÉ¤É ºÉä <x½þäÆ ½þ]õÉªÉÉ VÉÉBMÉÉ* <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä ºÉÉ¨|ÉnùÉÊªÉEò ½þÖEòÚ¨ÉiÉ ºÉä ¨ÉÖÊEiÉ Ê¨É±É VÉÉBMÉÒ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ ®úÉ´É±Éä : ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ ºÉnùºªÉ xÉä ½þÉìºÉÇ ]ÅäÊb÷MÉ EòÉ +Éè®ú Eò®úÉäc÷ÉäÆ ¯û{ÉB nùäxÉä EòÉ <±VÉÉ¨É ±ÉMÉÉªÉÉ ½þè* <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä EòÉªÉÇ´ÉÉ½þÒ ºÉä ÊxÉEòÉ±ÉÉ VÉÉB* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ¸ÉÒ ®úPÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ÉºÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ : ºÉÉÆSÉ EòÉä +ÉÆSÉ EòÒ +É´É¶ªÉEòiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ* ½þ¨É ºÉÉÊ¤ÉiÉ Eò®úEòä ÊnùJÉÉBÆMÉä ÊEò EòÉèxÉ-EòÉèxÉ ºÉä <xÉEòä ¨ÉÆjÉÒ <ºÉ EòÉ¨É ¨ÉäÆ ±ÉMÉä ½þèÆ* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will expunge all those things.

Now, the House stands adjourned to meet again today at 11 a.m. 5.35 hrs The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on Saturday, April 17, 1999/Chaitra 27, 1921 (Saka).

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Discussion On The Motion Of Confidence In The Council Of Ministers Moved By Shri ... on 16 April, 1999